Happy New Year!! I was thinking about adding a splitter to my PM66 (go figure!). I still have the stock unit (never installed), but I am interested in the removable type. I’ve read mixed reveiews about the Beismeyer. Any opinions?
Thanks!
John
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Replies
Get something NOW!!
I use the Bies and it works great. Never had a kickback.
Hey Dave,
Is it tough to remove? Do you have the PM?
thanks,
John
John, i use the bies splitter on a PM66. It is trivial to attach and remove. It is my most important table saw safety device. I will not use the saw without it.
My brother-in-law just cut off 4 fingers from his left hand on a PM66. Kickback (and some creative use) was to blame. It has turned out to be worse than I ever imagined, he lost the fingers, has ongoing severe pain, regular physical therapy, and he looks forward to multiple surgeries.
I'm taking this table saw safety stuff pretty seriously from now on!
Getting the splitter to fit the PM66 took a little more effort than i expected. I had to drill out the mounting holes in the splitter to get it to line up with the table saw holes. No big deal, just unexpected.
Dave
Sorry to hear about your brother in law. I did the kickback thing this summer. My own fault, in a hurry. I got away with no blood spilled, just a nice big, bruise where the cabinet door hit me, on its way to the drill press. Shattered the door and my nerves. I have been doing this for 15 years and have never seen anyone work with a splitter, never mind a guard. I've ripped narrow and short stuff, held my breath and run my hand right next to the blade. Not smart, but I've done it. Now, I am afraid to get my hands on the table. The cabinet door freaked me out enough to buy a band saw for ripping soild material. I am considering a sliding table also. Seems like a good thing. I saw them demonstrated on the video that Minimax sent me. (About the bandsaw). I don't think that I like the whole combination machine thing, but I did like the sliding tablesaw. Anyway, back to the Beis, how is it removed? Do I have to remove the insert first? Sorry for all of the questions.
Thanks,
John
I've been looking at adding a splitter as well, especially as I start to rip hardwood. Hard to tell from the Biesemeyer site just how theirs goes together, but I do like the part about the kickback pawls.
Found another option, due to be available this month, at:
http://www.microjig.com/MJ%20Splitter.htm
These guys also make the ultimate push block. If you like your fingers this looks like the way to go.
One question about splitters - looks like they are all designed for straight ripping only. What about bevels?
Wayne
Wayne,
Splitter should be attached to the saw carriage and tilt when the blade tilts.
They're just as important on angled cuts - their job is to stop the timber closing onto the back teeth of the saw, causing kickback.
Cheers,
eddie
The Europeans are way ahead of us on this.
They use a riving knife that goes up and down and tilts with the blade. Because it is the same height as the blade it does not have to be removed when cutting groves.
I don't understand why US saws aren't made like this. I can't see where it would cost them $10 extra.
The riving knife was the second biggest reason (sliding table was the first) that I switched to a Minimax. It wasn't cheap but I feel it was well worth the money.
Thanks Nicobie,
This explains a bit - Seems as though you're swimming against the tide in the US but - I'm amazed that the manufacturers aren't supplying the safest saw possible from a liability point of view.
I just bought a Minimax (second hand) myself to avoid doing the non work-related jobs in my lunchtimes/spare times at work.
They look like a good saw & have a good reputation - in my case the price was right, and about as much as I could afford. I'll know more when I get this thing reconditioned and back up to scratch.
I'm off today to a place were Delta goods are sold - I'll have a look and see (out of interest) if this saw has a riving knife and if it tilts with the arbor for local sales.
Cheers,
eddie
Thanks Eddie for your input. I may be moving in the Minimax direction, myself. Makes me sad, as I thought that when I shot the lock off of the wallet for the PM, that would be it. Mabe it never is. Although I'm going to have to start saving. Those things are not cheap, but I suppose that they are less expensive than fingers. Did you get the sliding table type?
Thanks Again'
John
Hi John,
Yes, they all come with the sliding table as far as I'm aware.
I wasn't out shopping for one, but came across one at the right price (USD1600), so I grabbed it.
The combo machines are a fairly serious investment for a hobby shop - USD7-14K. I'd make sure that it's where you want to go before dropping several months wages and probably two years spare income on a saw - f_g has posted the names of a couple of cheaper local saws where the riving knife follows the blade.
Cheers,
eddie
edit: Spelling mistake due to big fingers aNd pRoBlEmS wItH cAsE (itchy trigger finger, I suppose)
Edited 1/4/2004 3:45:06 PM ET by eddie (aust)
Surprisingly, the $300 Ryobi BT3100 is the only "contractor" style saw that I know of that has a riving knife over the more traditional splitter.
Ray
Perhaps the reason that the Ryobi BT300 has the riving knife is that it is also sold in Europe, where splitters are frowned upon
Scrit
Scrit: Perhaps the reason that the Ryobi BT3000 has the riving knife is that it is also sold in Europe
I read somewhere it was designed in Europe--in part, at least; joint development between Ryobi and Freud.
". . .and only the stump or fishy part of him remained."
Green Gables: A Contemplative Companion to Fujino Township
Ray: Surprisingly, the $300 Ryobi BT3100 is the only "contractor" style saw that I know of that has a riving knife. . .
What's more, it can be cut down just like those on the Felder or Inca, so you don't have to remove it to do non-through cuts. ". . .and only the stump or fishy part of him remained."
Green Gables: A Contemplative Companion to Fujino Township
Norm, do you have an Inca? Have you cut your knife down?
I don't have an Inca (or felder, drool), and yes I've cut mine down--or rather, I cut a new one out of mild steel; this isn't a very good picture but it gives you the general idea:
View Image". . .and only the stump or fishy part of him remained."
Green Gables: A Contemplative Companion to Fujino Township
Thanks.
The Biesemeyer and the Merlin both attach to the guts underneath so that they tilt with the blade. Wouldn't have it any other way! The little splitter seen at the MicroJig site looks like it's specifically designed for use with their pushblock-gizmo. It seems very limited in it's usefullness:
Not tall enough to be effective when ripping thicker stock
Doesn't tilt with the blade
Too short front-to-back IMO -- I've had stock pinch together after ripping. With a longer splitter, the operator will feel the stock "stick" and attention is brought to the problem before kickback occurs. With a short little splitter like the MJ, I suspect the stock could pinch and kickback before the operator has a chance to notice.
No pawls (an aftereffect of it being designed for their pushing jig, a device of which I am not a fan. If I'm going to push, I want my hand do the side of the blade.)
It's easy to make the same thing at stick it to your insert, using wood, metal or even just a pin of sorts.
forestgirl Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 1/4/2004 3:25:14 PM ET by forestgirl
Thanks for your input on MicroJig. I see your point about the length/height, lack of kickback pawls, and inability to handle bevels.
I was mostly interested in the pusher thingie because of how it handles very narrow rips (<1/2"). I find myself doing these from time to time and am never comfortable. Lot of $$ to solve just that problem though, guess I'll just have to build my own solution.
Congrats on the wedding. I've been spending a bit of time recently lurking here and in Breaktime and it's very cool to see the genuine community that exists.
Since my (used but well cared-for) Unisaw didn't come with a splitter guess I'll order up the Biesemeyer as it looks as good as any other out there, and - most importantly - matches the fence.
Wayne
Hi Wayne, thanks for the best wishes.
re: the need to make thin-stock ripping safe. Have you considered getting the Grip-Tite system? These are the yellow "magnetic featherboards" that you can purchase with add-on rollers and a steel fence plate (if your fence isn't steel). If you can get to a woodworking show this year, spend 20 minutes or so watching the Grip-Tite demo, I think you'll be convinced.
The Grip-Tites stick to the fence, and the rollers (very small) pull the stock against the fence. With one GT in front and one in back of the blade, you're hand isn't going into the blade. You would use the next piece of stock to push the working piece through the blade. I've watched them cut several long pieces down to 1/4" rips very quickly and very safely.forestgirl Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Hi, Forestgirl
I like the idea of a Grip-Tite, but...
I think this is a dumb question, but what do you use to push "the next piece" out with on a thin rip?
I am trying to imagine it, but it seems to me that sooner or later you either have to shove a narrow pushstick through the cut; or turn off the saw in mid-cut.
Regards,
Dan
Unless I'm missing something, isn't is safer to rip thin strips on the left side of the blade? Repeat rips of equal width can be done by moving the fence and the wide board from which the strips are cut. Repeatability can be accomplished with a jig. Take a piece of 3/4" MDF and drill and tap a hole in one edge to accept a bolt. fasten a strip underneath to fit the left hand miter slot. Adjust the bolt to the distance from the blade equal to the width of the strips. remove the jig and cut the strip. Replace the
jig and move the board and fence against the bolt and repeat the above process. Continue until all strips are cut or the source board is too narrow for safe ripping.
Not my idea, but effective and safe.Bill
Actually Bill, if you use a European-style short rip fence (or an auxiliary fence plate mounted on top of the standard front to back fence) you get the best of both worlds - less binding (therefore safer - even more so with a splitter or riving knife) and repeatability (because the fence is always EXACTLY in the same place relative to the blade). As soon as you start to move fences, even with the help of a jig, the repeatability of your cut goes west quite quickly.... Work should always be pushed through with a push stick at the end of the cut (the idea is to keep your finers a good 10 to 12in away from the blade) - two when the stock starts to get narrow (one for side pressure). I'd avoid the style shaped like a boomerang where the handle puts your hand over the blade at the end of the cut and just stick to the notched end offcut, then your fingers are in safe place if anything does happen. The push stick can always be sacrificed on the last cut, after all it is only made from scrap timber.
Scrit
Edited 1/6/2004 9:16:11 AM ET by Scrit
Scrit,
I agree with you about the fence. I have an adjustable short auxilliary fence that I set about 1" toward the back of the front gullet that I use for ripping solid stock. I also have a push block with a 1/4" thick pusher that rides the fence keeping my hands totally away from the blade. I slide this adjustable fence to 1" in front of the rear gullet when cutting sheet goods. Again, not my ideas, but learned from Ian Kirby's book on table saws " Down to a Line" The jig is just an alternative for those not wanting to push a narrow piece between the blade and fence. With care, good repeatability is possible.
Personally, I use push sticks, blocks etc. for all cuts where my hand is closer to the blade than about 12". My Rigid fence is too wide and the auxilliary fence a bit too high to hook my fingers over.
Thanks for the input.Bill
I've found that i feel much more comfortable ripping thin strips to the outside of the blade. I never like having thin pieces of anything between the fence and blade. After seeing a 1/4x3/4 strip shoot back and go through a panel door I had behind the saw I decided to stop ripping thin stuff between the fence and blade, tiny pieces don't have alot of mass so they seem to move around a bit more once I finish the cut.
To facilitate this I made a bunch of little guages consisting of a piece that fits tight in the left mitre slot, and a block that is setup to butt my stock against so that i'll be left with a strip to the outside of the blade that's my desired thickness. I've made one for all the sized I commonly rip, 1/8, 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 just so I can grab them off the shelf whenever I need them quickly. They making ripping the strips easily repeatable, and it makes me feel a heck of alot safer, but maybe that's just personal preference.
Once the piece i'm ripping the strips off of gets below about 2-3 inches I usually stop and grab a different piece of stock.
JDorn,
You do essentially the same with fixed width jigs as I do with the adjustable one. The nice thing about the adjustable on is that every 360 degree turn of the bolt gives you 1/16" so fine adjustments are a snap if necessary.
Fixed jug is great with standard widths you use commonly and would be quicker.
Bill
Hi Dan, yes you're right, for the very last piece you have to use a scrap piece of stock to push through with, or turn the saw off mid-cut. The rollers hold the stock firmly against the fence, so it would likely be safe to do the latter, but you could always stick with the former for good measure. Remember that once the workpiece pass the front edge of the saw blade, it's done.
John Lucas has a couple pages at Woodshop Demos about installing and setting up the Grip-Tite 2000 system. This page has the best working photos:http://www.woodshopdemos.com/grpti-2.htmforestgirl Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Thanks for the advice.
Regards,
Dan
John, in answer to your question:>>>Anyway, back to the Beis, how is it removed? Do I have to remove the insert first?
Attaching the splitter- Remove insert- Slide splitter into slot. It engages into a spring loaded pin.- Replace insert
Removing the splitter- Remove insert- Pull knob on splitter receptacle to retract spring loaded pin- Slide splitter out- Replace insert
I agree with the other poster who recommends installing the factory gaurd and splitter in the meantime.
Dave your brother-in-law is not the only one... I also cut three middle fingers on left hand 2nd surgery had to amputate middle finger just below the finger nail. For what that cost me I could have bought all new power tools with money to spare! You just don't realize how important something is till it's gone!
John
John -- It would be worth your while to install the stock PM-66 splitter while researching other options, in my opinion. I have done so after having a kickback that scared the s--t out of me one day when doing routine (non-creative) ripping of 4/4 stock and the inside piece next to the fence caught on the back of the blade. It happened so fast I couldn't at first see what it was that shot past me and embedded in a door behind me. When I first got my PM-66, new about six years ago, it came with the anti-kickback pawls attached to the splitter and they got in the way of so much of the work I was doing that I just put the whole asembly aside. Then, when I had the kickback I decided to remove the pawls and just use the splitter. Now it stays on whenever I'm ripping and I've learned with time that it can be put on and taken off with very little lost motion/time. I keep a wrench on the top of the fence for the purpose. I, too, would like to have a riving knife and have looked at the trunion to see what would be involved in drilling and tapping the casting for one, but it looks like the whole assembly would need to be removed from the cabinet to do this well. The Bies may be a decent alternative, but not THAT big an improvement over the stock splitter, IMO.
By the way -- have you ever wondered why nobody from any of the big manufacturers ever responds here to this topic? Must have been posted twenty or so times in the past couple of years.
John:
I have a European combination machine, including a 3HP table saw. It come swith a removable riving knife. I wouldn't even think about taking that off. I ALWAYS use it. I don't use this machine with a dado blade. After several years of using a table saw with a riving knife always in place, even small contractor table saws without a similar device scare me to death.
Best wishes.
Stephen J. Gaal
One other thought:
When I am ripping something thick, I much prefer to use the bandsaw. Takes all the excitement out of it.
Stephen J. Gaal
I appreciate your input, Stephen. Yeah I am totally rethinking my setup now. One of the reasons that I bought the cabinet saw was so that I could rip thick stock without tripping breakers or sending up smoke signals. I have bailed out of a couple of cuts, realizing that the saw has the power, but it is inappropriate for the cut. I had some 8/4 stock (Brazilian Cherry) that I needed to rip to 1 1/2 square and I had already cut it to rough lengths, but even so, I was afraid to try it. I don't own a bandsaw and have not used one since the first Reagan administration. (JR. HS.) I have put a deposit on a Minimax MM16, perhaps somewhat impulsively, but cash is tight right now and I'm afraid to pull the trigger. Although I am pretty much committed now, I should just do it I suppose. What machines do you have? That is what combo and bandsaw?
Thanks!
John
Edited 1/5/2004 5:20:51 PM ET by JMartinsky
John:
I have a Robland X-13 combo machine (3 HP table saw with sliding table, 3 HP shaper which I have never used, 12" jointer [man, is that great!], 12 " planer, and horizontal mortiser [also very useful]). The importer of this Belgian machine is Laguna Tools. I also have a Laguna Tools 16HD bandsaw.
I would give the X-31 mixed reviews. I believe each component is a serious notch up from the Delta equivalent, but tuning and aligning a machine of this compexity is not for the faint of heart. Price for this combo is now around $6,000. It is quite compact and I don't find it burdensome to change modes. And a 12" jointer is REALLY NICE.
The LT 16HD is a wonderful bandsaw, although it runs about $2,000. It has 3HP, and is beefy enough to get plenty of tension on blades. BTW, although it can handle blades up to 1 3/8 ", my best success resawing has been using 1/2" timberwolf blades.
I really use the table saw to either rip and crosscut sheet goods and/or rip material less than 1" thick. For 8/4 or 12/4 stock joint, rip roughly with the bandsaw and the plane to final dimension.
I have all my fingers, both eyes, and my forehead, and I want to keep it that way.
Hope this is helpful. If you want to talk by phone about any of this in real time, let me know.
Best wishes.Stephen J. Gaal
John -- Do you use a dedicated ripping blade? I don't mean to be overly basic, but lots of times people get into the mode of using a combination blade rather than investing in a good ripping blade (like a Forrest) or not wanting to bother with changing blades. The splitter can stay in place. It makes a lot of difference when ripping something like 8/4 white oak. I prefer it over using the bandsaw. Just a thought.
Jim
Dear Jim,
Yes, I am a bit of a blade fanatic. I am running a Forrest right now with no problems. I guess that I'm a tad scared of the thing now for some rips. Oh, I can push anything I want throgh it, its just that I have short peices now. I'm sort of fond of my fingers. On long cuts, I have no problem with the tablesaw, even without the splitter. Its just the short cuts that worry me. The bandsaw just seems like a safer way to go.
John
Installed the Merlin splitter on my old Unisaw this weekend. Seems very solid and was easy to install. It follows the tilt of the blade. At 45 deg. it interferes with the throat plate. I checked it out and will only require some material removal from the bottom of the throat plate. It removes via a user made hole in the throat plate. You can use a dowel or something similar to push a button and the thing pops right off without removing the plate. Knife end comes up then the whole assembly slides aft and comes off the saw. Haven't used yet but from the look and feel of it, should be very nice to use and should stay accurate and repeatable once set up for a particular blade. This is a very nice accessory! No, I don't own stock!
Regards,
Mack
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