I’m an advanced amateur with a 60 year old Delta 10″ Unisaw. I’d like to upgrade to something more robust, like a 12 to 16 inch blade and more massive overall.
How important/useful are features like left tilt, sliding tables and scoring blades? Do any become problematical?
Bill Nyberg
Replies
Scoring is nice for melamine and veneered material but one can work around it with a Forrest Hi AT blade. A slider is a must. After using them for 30 years a saw without a sliding table is only half a saw. There are some that will take a dado. With a slider they are always right tilt and it's not a big deal. Plenty of nice entry 4' sliders out there.
http://www.atlanticmach.com/saws/table-saws.html
I would stay away from sliders like the Laguna as it has no outrigger support. You want to be able to cut a sheet of ply in half. Also with a slider I don't need a miter saw or radial arm saw.
Rick,
Thanks for the opinion. Because of my amateur status, I can make a preliminary cut with a hand held circular saw before I take the plywood to the table saw. In light of that, would that still rule out the Laguna?
I'm considering the Laguna, the Delta and the Powermatic.
Thanks.
Bill
I can and have cut full sheets of plywood in half with my Laguna TSS. No problem with the clip on support tables - but if I wanted to cut a little off the end of a full panel, that would be a different story. As to a work-around for scoring - why bother if you are going to spend that kind of money for a saw? Get the scoring.
Edited 9/27/2007 12:09 am by polarsea1
I'm curious what you have found that your 10" can't do?
If you do want the bigger saw. Grizzly makes a very nice 12" with riving knife and its a slidder now. I have the 1023slx and would get the bigger one if I could just find a problem with my existing saw. They also have a 12" version without the slidder for 2k.
http://www.grizzly.com/products/G0460
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it.
And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Bones,
Thanks for the tip on the Grizzly.
I've been very happy with the 10 inch. My dad used it professionally for many years before I got it. I just feel intuitively that the extra mass and size will contribute to consistent precision and stability. Therefore, if I'm going to get another saw, I might as well go "whole hog" and get a real beauty. Especially if the next one in my family to upgrade again is my yet-to-be-born grandchild. If you get a good saw, they seem to last a while.
Bill Nyberg
If your Unisaw is unstable but the capacity is OK for what you do, why not make it more stable? The 8" I had (got it from my dad when he passed and he got it when his brother passed) was very top-heavy and I attached a wider platform to keep it upright.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Bones,
My question is this. To date all of my projects have been made of soft wood like pine. Can the same laws for rippping and crosscutting be applied to hard woods. I use a 18t carbide to rip and 40t carbide to cut plywood and crosscut. Can I use the same to crosscut and rip hardwood.
thanks
I use a Forrest WWII for ripping and crosscutting on the TS with perfect results. I have a Radial Arm Saw set up with a Forrest WWI which is specialized (they say) for Cros cutting long boards. If the pieces are easy to handle I throw them up on the Griz and my miter gauge is the Incra 1000se, and do it that way. With the WWII it's great both ways. I use to work in pine and the only thing you might deal with is more pitch build up on the blade.Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Hey Bones,
Speaking of radial arm saw. I looking to build a crosscut station to rough mill lumber. Do you suggest a Radial Arm or a sliding miter saw. I understand the radial arm takes a lot of resetting but it will cut dados ( which I like ). Give me your opinion. Oh the biggest stock I have used is 10 inches.
To be honest with you, I'm going to sell my RAS. It's really only good for one thing cross cutting long wide boards and it takes up way to much room. I have it zero'd in and it does that one task well. If I had the money a slidding cross cut would be nice, but the money is a lot! The last few projects I have started cutting the boards down close with the CS & speed square to get it close and do everything else on the TS. If you are close to ST. Louis, I'll offer you a sweatheart deal on a RAS! Save enough to get a cabinet saw! It's amazing how when you start with flat square wooden parts the project goes easier!Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
"I have the 1023slx and would get the bigger one if I could just find a problem with my existing saw."Ain't that the truth? I have the 1023S and other than "it's time for lubrication", it needs nothing at all.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
"Ain't that the truth? I have the 1023S and other than "it's time for lubrication", it needs nothing at all."
To be honest, I've never even had to adjust something that's gone "out of whack". I've been totally pleased. Now I want that big Green Jointer to go with the TS & BS. Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
I was standing on mine, yesterday. I have to remove some sawdust from the tilt stop once in a while but other than cleaning out the dust that doesn't get sucked out, I clean the top, use it, pile stuff on it, use it, etc. The old Delta was pretty fussy. I spent quite a bit of time setting it up and it wasn't very good about staying where it was set.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
The G0460 also has a scoring blade.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Bill,
A larger saw is not automatically more robust or accurate, and has downsides for the space they take and their power requirements among other things.
Unless you have a real need for the extra cutting capacity you should consider rethinking your plan. At this point if I were going to invest in a saw for the long haul, and to leave to my grandson, ####3HP SawStop would be my first choice, and my second and third choice for that matter.
John White, Yestermorrow School
I agree with you with one exception... I would get the 5 horse...Drew
John,
Very valulable opinion. Thanks.
Obvioiusly a bigger saw takes up more space, and a more powerful one draws more electricity, but I'd love to hear more elaboration on the other disadvantages you mention.
I hadn't considered the SawStop, but I certainly will now.
Thanks.
Bill Nyberg
Bill,For one thing, large saws are no more accurate and often less accurate than smaller machines. Large blades, simply because of their size, are more prone to flexing and vibration. In fact if you want to improve the quality of the cuts you are getting on a 10" saw, install an 8" blade on it.The large table on some bigger saws makes using the types of jigs that work well on 10 inch saws more difficult to use, big saws aren't needed for ordinary scale joint cutting.12 inch and bigger saws are very heavy and difficult to move, for the bigger models you'll probably need a machine rigger to get them delivered and installed. The difficulty in moving them can make them white elephants when you want to sell them or even give them away.Anything bigger than a 10 inch saw needs 5 or more horsepower to drive it and the larger motors work better if they are three phase. If you are planning to install the saw in a residential shop, you will need to do some serious electrical upgrading including a three phase converter of some sort if you want a three phase motor. The larger electrical needs of big saws can also contribute to their being white elephants in the future.Many but not all, larger saws have splitters rather than riving knives, and the lack of a riving knife makes the machines less safe. A few of the 10 inch saws now have riving knives and more are coming on the market.Blades are of course more expensive, and some of the reasonably priced specialty blades and blade sets commonly available for 10 inch saws are either very expensive or simply not available for larger saws.The only reason I would by a larger than 10 inch saw would be if I were working with stock that needed the added cutting depth.John White
Yestermorrow School, Waitsfield, Vermont
FWW Experts column contributor
Edited 10/2/2007 7:33 pm ET by JohnWW
John,
Well put, and profound thoughts.
Pearls of wisdom.
Thanks.
Bill
Bill,You are welcome, but I don't think my comments seriously rate as "pearls of wisdom".John W.
John,
Sure they do.
Your comments are exactly what I was hoping for when I posted my question, from someone who knows their stuff.
I grew up in my dads' shop and am able to do woodworking, and am not totally oblivious to machinery. But you, and others, are much more tuned to these things than I am.
I currently have the the SawStop and the 10"/12" Lagunas at the front of my mind.
Bill Nyberg
John - did you leave FWW?
I did leave Fine Woodworking, after 8 years in Connecticut it was time to move back to Vermont. I'm still working for the magazine and web site doing articles and tool reviews, shooting videos, and answering questions.Right now I'm filling in as the shop manager and facilities manager for a school in Vermont while their regular manager is getting medical treatment. When this gig ends in the Spring I'll be devoting more time to writing for FWW and FWW.com.John W.
Yestermorrow School, Waitsfield, Vermont
Large blades, simply because of their size, are more prone to flexing and vibration.. DITTO!I bought a thin kerf blade. Yep the red one from Italy. I LIKE THEIR BLADES so NOT knockin' them.I mentioned it in here awhile back and I got no responses on the subject. The 'thin' kerf blade moves away from the original center on my saw approximately 1/32 inch.. Bummer if you need a exact cut! The blade moves to the right as viewed from where I stand pushing the stick!When it moves the cut is still true but a 'bit' longer than I wanted!At first I thought I was drinkin' or something but I was only drinkin' green Tea at the time I saw it move!
Edited 10/3/2007 8:16 pm by WillGeorge
Where are you located? Look for industrial power tools or power tool re-sellers. If you're close to Milwaukee, there's a place here called RIMCO and they have all kinds of big, sometimes old, industrial woodworking machinery. 12"-16" is definitely not going to be cheap, but look in the Auctions section in your local paper, too. If there are any large cabinet shops near you, call and ask if they're eliminating any machinery in the near future. They usually keep their machines in good working order. An old lumber yard may have something, as well. I worked at one and we had 16" radial arm and table saws, but I doubt most do that much cutting now.
Whether you need a slider obviously depends on what you will use it for. Scoring blades are for sheet goods and high production, generally. Left tilt may be a problem for someone who has used right tilt for a long time.
Highfigh,
I live in a New Jersey suburb of Philadelphia.
In the lumberyard where they used a big saw, what was the benefit? Why didn't they use a 10 inch?
Bill
It's hard to rip 4x6 and 6x6 hardwood with a 10" and that kind of cutting had been done for a long time. The motors were in the 20 HP range, too. When I say rip lumber with these dimensions, it was only occasionally small amounts. Usually, it was whole bundles, in the 4'x6'-12' range. The saws were there before I started but in the mid-'70s, Milwaukee had a deep-tunnel sewer project going on and they used 4x6 and larger for cribbing and forms, by the train car load. The company I worked for supplied lumber for the project and we needed to do the small amounts of cutting since the 3'-4' long pieces were cut at the mills but even the small amounts ended up being done by the bundle. We also used to cut 2"x, 3"x and 4"x12" oak for the railroads, for derailments, on an old DeWalt radial arm with 12" blade and 7.5HP motor. I tried to get them to buy carbide blades but the yard manager was too old, cheap and set in his ways for that. He said they were too expensive and wasted too much wood with their kerf. Compared to the steel blades we had, the kerf would have been less and it would have been a lot less dangerous, since the guy who did the sharpening was about 80, would lose track of which way the teeth were set and sometimes repeat in one direction or the other. I think he got hold of a matchbook cover that showed some happy guy with "Make money in your spare time by sharpening saw blades".
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Highfigh,
Thanks for the lenghy reply. Certainly, the big strong saws are capable of the kind of demand you describe. Fortunately for me, I'm not expecting to do anything like that. I was thinking that a big, heavy, capable saw would be analagous to the 1/2 inch shank router bits that I love; much less suceptable to deflection, etc. And that that would give me a more capable cabinet saw.
Bill Nyberg
I totally agree about the 1/2" bits. I used 1/4" for too long and then asked myself why I waited after seeing how much less vibration there was. I don't think the bit to machine comparison hits the mark, though. I think it's more accurate to compare machine to machine and bit to blade. A great saw will never be great without a great blade but an OK saw can cut well with a great blade, likewise for routers. However, if you will tend to cut softwood up to about 3-1/2" and not more, a 10" will do the job well if you have great blades and it's not under powered. A 10" saw with a 5HP motor should do whatever you want. However, a 12" saw cutting 3-1/2" stock will be able to cut downward more than a 10" saw and this can decrease the chance of kickback. The teeth will be moving faster and cutting better, generally, and the resistance will have less effect on the rotation of the blade. As the stock moves, if it contacts the blade blank, it will be the slower moving area near the center, not the outside perimeter. From that standpoint, I can definitely see a reason to have a 12" saw. I think a 16" saw is overkill in most shops. The price of blades will choke a horse and the tables tend to be really big, although that would probably eliminate the need for an assembly table. If it doesn't need to be mobile, a 10", 12" or 16" saw should be rock solid. Add an outfeed and/or side extension table and it's even more so.As good as the 16" saw probably was, I'll never know what it really could do since the blades were so bad. I'd like to have used it with a great carbide blade. Still, that's not a saw made for anything that requires finesse- it was made for production cutting of larger stock than a consumer machine.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Edited 9/29/2007 4:57 pm by highfigh
Bill,The lumberyard needs to have a larger saw because they deal with some large lumber. They need to be powerful for the same reason.Saws over 12" are most commonly 3 phase motors, so getting one will mean you need 3 phase power, too.I second John White's recommendation for a Sawstop 3 (or 5) hp 10" saw.Bill
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled