Hello all, I have a General International 50-185 contractors Saw. Here’s the deal
1. Blade is aligned perfectly parallel with the miter groove when almost fully raised.
2. As I lower the blade, the blade shifts to the right. Specifically, the front part of the blade shifts about .002 and the rear of the blade shifts about .008. Bottom line, fully raised it is aligned but goes out of alignment as I lower the blade.
3. Blade is .012 out of parallel when tilted 45 degrees fully raised.
4. Flat pane of glass rocks on two opposing corners when placed on tie rods.
Question: Do I have some kind of Trunion alignment issue, and would shimming the front or rear trunion help. If so, what do recommend…..Shim them both? One at a time? Start with front or back ? Right side or Left Side?
Question: Have also heard about a way to rack everything back into alignment by loosening tie rod nuts and moving the motor………..would that have the same effect as shimming trunions?
Taking the saw back is not an option since I’ve already done that once for a different issue (Defective Arbor Bracket caused the Blade to lower into the front Trunion)
Greatly appreciate any help
Mike
Replies
That is a tough one - my saw is a cabinet saw in my furniture shop so never ran into this - but we have the same General contractor saw at a welding and fab shop that we use for ripping rigid urethane insulation panels and we had a similar problem with it.
First though, I'll address the 45 degree issue. Contractor saws will generally have a misalignment problem at this angle simply because of the weight of the motor hanging off the back end. That weight off balance skews the blade some and I don't think there is much you can do about that. The cabinet saw (which is why I mentioned it ) has the motor directly below the arbor so this doesn't occur. The new hybrids do much the same. If any body has a solution to this, I'd be interested myself.
The misalignment when at 90 degrees sounds like trunnions and tie rods. We loosened both trunnions and realigned ( generally you only need to move the rear trunnion but this was misaligned too much to get away with that). Adjusting both trunnions was all we had to do in this case. Originally we did only the rear and it caused the problem you describe. When you move the trunnion only at the rear it puts strain on the tie rods that may cause exactly what you have now. I'm wondering if the factory assembly was improper and they built this into your saw right at the get go. I think I would still call General service dept. first and describe the problem - they may be able to help you. If not, you might try loosening both trunnions and align the blade again. Raise it and lower it to check alignment. If that doesn't work, loosen the tie rods and trunnions together and try to detect if any thing feels strained ( meaning you may feel a tug one direction or another as you loosen - hard to explain) Re -align the trunnions first and then tighten the tie rods. Make sure all is tight.
If that doesn't work I would have to say something is bent or obviously not right somehow. Regardless of whether you sent the saw back before, I assume it's still under warranty? and General is obligated to fix it. Going beyond these few steps could cause more problems so I can't recommend doing that with out seeing the saw.
Sorry, this is all I can come up with.
Jim
I wouldn't be surprised if virtually all contractors saws are out by around .01 when they are fully raised at 45° (because of the weight of the motor). When a contractors saw is really messed up, the 45° will be out way more than that. You can guess how I know this. If the bars that run between the front and rear trunions get out of square (become a parallelogram), it throws the 45° alignment way the heck out of whack.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Well, I've broke the tie rod locking nuts loose. Racked the trunions a bit and snugged the locking nuts back up. They were a little out of parallel. My blade now maintains alignment while raising and lowering. Now, the hard part
I still have to tighten those nuts up without throwing things out of wack and believe me when I say.....it is very touchy.
A major P.I.T.A so far
It is absolutely amazing what effect those tie rods can have on the alignability of a table saw.
More to follow Mike
"It is absolutely amazing what effect those tie rods can have on the alignability of a table saw. " No kidding! A huge reason for getting a cabinet saw "some day" LOL.
Congrats on being able to fix it yourself. I had to get mine done by a repair guy. Paid off though, since he had an extra set of cast iron wings I got real cheap.
IDEA: Since you already have everything loosened up, why not throw a set of P.A.L.S. on there? It'll make life easier down the road!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Well thanks, but I'm not out of the woods yet. I have to get those locking nuts tightened up evenly without racking them out of alignment again.
Then my next step is shim up the rear trunion to eliminate the blade heel when I tilt it 45 degrees.
It's nice to know though that the strange behavior of the blade when raising and lowering is correctable.
The other possible cause would be defective machining on the arbor bracket..specifically the pivot point.......I don't believe thats the case which is great news.
Although it's been sort of a saga, I'm learning something!
Cabinet saw will come when the wife gets excited about what I'm doing with this saw and wants more complicated projects....then it's.....Well, you know...I could build that, BUT................................I'll need to buy what will likely be my last saw EVER
:) :) Hopefully that line will work againMike
Keep in mind that with the motor hanging off the back like that, a contractor saw does tend to come out of alignment at 45° -- it's been mentioned before, but thought it would bear repeating. Gotta keep your frustration level manageable, LOL!! LEt us know how close you get to perfect.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Keep us posted m9er.
I discovered a few weeks ago that my General has the same problem, parallel when fully raised, off by about .01 when near the bottom.
The garage is pretty cold for me to do much out there right now so don't know when I will start messing with mine.
Let me know how the tightening up goes.
I'll update the thread when I get something done. I know where you're coming from. About 13 years ago during a power outage while we were renting we bought a kerosene heater. We used it at the time with marginal results in a drafty house.......
Many years later I got bit by the woodworking bug and found myself in a very cold garage here in Washington state...............I thought..what the heck and bought some fuel for it.....................turns out my 1 car garage is a perfect match for the heater..................
Mike
Edited 3/17/2006 1:47 am ET by m9er
West side or east side of the state?
Western Washington
Port Orchard by BremertonMike
Too bad, I am in the East.
Don't EVER tell your wife that it'll be the LAST saw (or any other tool, for that matter), as you'll regret it. My wife is still riding me, for the radial arm saw I bought in '75. Never again will I say LAST...
Marty
I have a little experience with this problem. The casting where the bolt goes thru is not smooth,you can't do anything practical to smooth it in place. Use a gasket forming product like locktite. I used the blue, the color doesn't make a difference because you let it set up completely first. Put the locktite on the bolt flange,and washer if there is one.Let it completely set up. When it is dry and rubbery,install the bolts.Tighten a little at a time.I suppose silicone caulk will work too.
I did this twice with success.The gasket formed keeps the bolt from moving the top,there no longer is friction between the casting and bolt.
mike
Ok, I suppose I could have typed all these issues in one note, but alas the lunch bell rang.
Say, m9er, would you go to your saw manual and look on page 15? Page 15 is a diagram of all the saw parts. Which parts, by number, did you loosen, push, pull, or otherwise tinker with?
The alignment change when the blade is tilted to a 45 is something I can understand to be at least to some exent un-avoidable just because of the motor.
My real issue is:
I can align the blade perfectly parallel with the blade fully raised. The blade heels to the right as I lower it. Almost .010 of an inch when lowered to less than 1 inch above the top.
I am using a freud blade taking readings at the same tooth...and I've already considered the effect of blade cup..............but now way is blade cup causing this reading......
1. By using the same spot on the blade, I should be eliminating the cup or runout from the equation and my arbor has negligible run-out.
It's not just a couple thousands of an inch.....and the reason I checked I noticed wood being pinched between the blade and the fence and I was having to toe the fence out more and more.
I have a master plate on order, and plan to use that as I tighten everything back up.
Before I broke the tie rod locking nuts loos, I bet I measured the condition over a thousand times
I considered splitting the difference by aligning the blade at mid-height, but decided otherwise...........perhaps I'm being a hard case and now it's a quest.
Most woodworkers I'm finding a disappointed when they discover this condition on their saw..........I'm going to attempt to fix it............don't know how far I'll goMike
You say "Most woodworkers I'm finding a disappointed when they discover this condition on their saw ...."
Have you talked to that many with this problem?
I am with you on fixing the problem, if it can be fixed! Now it may not be fair, but I am waiting for you to solve the problem and then let me know how to do it! LOL.
I broke the 50185-121L Hex nuts loose. Mike
All four of them?
So . . . Mike . . . Do you know what you are doing? LOL!!!!
I consider myself pretty mechanical and have good grasp of geometric shapes (afterall we are working with three planes of geometry here, not the typical problem of only two at one time), but I must say that I am not sure that I can see in my mind what actaully can be teh problem with teh rods or other mechanisms here. I need your leadership or to spend more time studying this deal and or calling General International.
Calling General is almost as scarey as this problem, seeing that they are in Quebec and speak French. LOL!
Yes, I have talked to others with this problem and they are stuck with it.......one guy picked up a new arbor bracket from G.I. and the problem was worse.......The tie rods only have two locking nuts on my saw and
No, I don't know what I'm doing.
I'm not a machinist and this is my first contractor saw. I've talked to the service dept at G.I as well as another well respected tool alignment expert and they did confirm that the tie rods not being parallel and/or the trunions not being coplaner could result in blade behavior I'm seeing. It could also be the pivot point on the arbor bracket too.........which would only be fixable by replacing the arbor bracket...a whole different ball of wax
With the nuts loosened and the saw essentially at rest, I've been able to eliminate the problem and reverse the problem to all kinds of extremes
Here's the deal though, I've already taken one saw back and have no desire to take this one back. IF and there's some hope there....IF I can correct the saw without taking it back I will...............Mike
Curious, how many people have you talked to with this problem?
Have you concluded that this is a problem with General INternational TS. (Not just an occasional thing, as every manufacturer has defects here or there)?
As for asking you if you knew what you were doing? I was more or less laughing at all of us would be machists. LOL! And continued good luck.
I could dig through all the groups out there. Over the last couple months I've read about Jet, Delta, and grizzly owners with the same problem. Weird though, I've stumbled across more G.I. owners. Most of them just align the saw parallel at one inch height and keep that in mind when fully raising the saw. In that case as the blade goes up it will heel to left. I could do that, but want to try this first
About the trunions, I plan to shim the trunions..I'm going to shim the rear trunion to match the front trunion and put them both in the same plane. I've got the shim stock....good luck finding that at the local hardward store and I have a depth guage on order from grizzly.
.......Using a square, it's obvious the front trunion sits lower than the rear by about 1/32. But that's over about 2/3 the distance between them, so it's actually closer to 1/16th. And yes, by eyeballing it, it appears that not only is the rear trunion sitting higher than the front trunion, BUT also the rear trunion side to side is a little different in how much higher it is than the front trunion. I'm using layman's intuition, but it seems to me if you try to tighten those tie bars in that condition, you'll end up torquing/tweaking the trunions out of wack.
If you break those tie rods free you'll see the impact on alignment. Guess that's why it's done at the factory, but as I'm learning........things aren't always perfect there.
Go to Google Groups Rec.Woodworking discussion group and search Tie Rod's and Tie Bars. Also search Table Saw Blade Alignment...........also in Wood Magazine you'll find other posts as well over the years........they both go back many years.Mike
Well, I've been shimming...every which way but loose.....still have a .010 of inch heel to right as I lower the blade.........I'm using a master plate now...............I know I know, Master plates could have run out too.................well since my measurements are consistent using both the blade and the master plate...
......I'm suspecting the pivot point on the arbor bracket is not true
Already got the old "Well, I gave it my best shot" kind of sentiment on this one. Right not the saw is aligned to split the .010 between fully raised and about 1 inch of height.
At full height it is .005 to the left and at 1 inch or so it is .005 to the right.................
Mike
Are you now suggesting NOT TO MESS WITH teh tie rods?
I don't like the idea of adjusting them and putting a twisting strain on something elsewhere, as you suggest can happen.
Secondly, you are spliting the difference between fully raised adn lowered now. Are you doing that solely by shimming the trunioun?
Thanks again.
I called G.I and the guy isn't in today, Have to call back tomorrow.
I have a .010 change in alignment when lowering the blade so I aligned it .005 out of parallel to left when fully raised. Then as I lower the blade to around 1 inch, it heels .010 to the right for a final alignment of .005 out of parallel to the right.
This was pretty much the original mis-alignment I had before I started all this so the shims didn't have an impact on this behavior.
From what I hear, the shimming will really reduce the misalignment that occurs when tilting the blade to a 45.............I haven't been working that problem though.
For alignment change with blade lowering, I wouldn't bother breaking the tie rods loose........ I'm sort of re-grouping here, but am running out of steam.........will see what G.I. says tomorrow.Mike
Talked to G.I service dept. They originally hinted that I may have to take it back. I expressed interest in some other resolution.
So we arranged for a new arbor bracket with the arbor already installed.
I faxed him the serial number of the saw and my contact info and expect a new bracket within the week. He said he would express it to my house via AIR.
Anybody have any thoughts on how I might test it before taking the old bracket out....It's going to take some effort to get to it.
My woodworking hobby has taken a bit of a tangent here lately and I'm quickly becoming intimately familiar with the contractor saw.
It's a crazy world
Mike
Thanks for the updates.
After looking at my saw I really did not see how the tie rods would really affect this problem so it is good to see that you agree (I think).
As for testing the bracket before replacing it? WOW a pretty tough one. You are looking for thousands of an inche telescoped inches away from teh pivot point of the bracket! Teh bracket has to be almost perfect and still could telescope out to teh blade with error. So to test teh bracket would be tough. I suppose you could if you had lots of metal parts build a pivot rod adn attach arms to it and bolt teh hold thing down adn measure it's error, but . . . .
Put it in and let us/me know.
Is teh GI guy saying that there is no point in attempting to adjust this problem away? Or is he just saying taht a new bracket would be easier?
I am sure my saw is not on warranty and I bought it from a place 400 miles distant? Ain't taking it back adn GI is not likely to send me free parts. So I am still interested in an adjustment fix. I am not sure that I will not just settle for spliting the difference with a bias toward near prefect when the blade is about 1 inch high (heihgt of most common cutting).
Have you ever explained a problem to somebody and when they respond, you know they heard exactly what they wanted to hear?
Well, first thing he did was recommend that I loosen the rear trunion and try to adjust the blade for parallel. LOL
I was like "Hey Brother,,,,,,,,,,I'm all over that, we're beyond basic alignment techniques, and taking the saw back is not an option"
When I told him the blade shifts by at least .010 he was interested in seeing the saw, but offerred no specific magic tricks. Ultimately, he's sending me out a new arbor bracket.
Once you get the right guy at G.I, customer service is actually darn good. The hard thing is penetrating the front office. They only offer one phone number on their website (and in their manual) and they generally don't respond to email. Frankly I've sent 5 email's with no response.
Call G.I service dept direct at 1-888-949-1161 ext 33.
Ask for Trevor
Mike
"Have you ever explained a problem to somebody and when they respond, you know they heard exactly what they wanted to hear"
All the time! Many many times they act like they think you are stupid as well as in your case of teh recommendation that you adjust the trunion. (DHHH! and teh problem is more complex than a one dimensional issue, did you hear me?)
I have had this problem with the IRS. If you call them about a tax problem, there is a very good chance that you know more about the issue than they do. And if you make the mistake of saying to much, they just agree with what you said!
Bankers are the same way if you talk to their investment department. Tehy should stick to savings accounts.
Anyway, I knwo what you mean. It is always a concern when you are looking for help beyond the very very basic.
Let me know how that new arbor bracket works out.
I am ready to go look at my saw again, take the measurements needed to be prepared to talk to someone, and to make a call. BUt would like to know of your sucess or failure first, if possible.
Recieved a new arbor bracket with the arbor installed.
I'm going to use the saw as is for now. Currently, I've aligned the saw with no burning or binding of wood. This with several test cuts using Cherry.
The arbor bracket replacement will likely be pretty involved.........
Mike
Call G.I. at 1.888.949.1161 ext 33.
That will get you straight to the service dept.......don't think it's free though. They told me to call them back with an update and that I might need to replace an Arbor Bracket. They did concur with what I was doing though......
If for instance the front trunion sits lower than the rear trunion as measured from the table top say 1/16 of inch or go even further to say one side of the rear truion is 1/16th of an inch higher than the front, but the other side of the rear trunion is even a 32th more than that......And then you tighten the tie rods up, you'll effective tweak the trunions out of coplaner. This tweaking will be seen in some small way by both trunions. The effect on the front truion would theoretically be responsible for the weird blade behavior as it changes levels while at a 90 to the table.
You can measure with a square and placing a flat object across the tie rods. I'm about a 1/16 difference in the level of the trunions.
I'm sure my tech writing skills just lost you didn't they.
Mike
All I can say is WOW, and Thank you (I think).
I am a bit afraid to even go in there. It just sounds like there are fifty combinations of things to adjust or ticker wiht OR SCREW UP!
What I was talking about with teh three dimensions and geometric problems is:
In theory, if the trunion is flat and the blade parallel when fully raised it should be parallel when lowered. If the trunion were flat but off a degree or whatever in that plane, then the blade should be off by that degree at whatever height the blade is. If the trunion were lower on one side, then you wuld be talking about a blade tilt issue.
AAAAHHHH, but if the trunion were lower on one side but only lower on the front or the back, ie twisted!, then you might be parrallel at one point in the elevation but twisted at another (say the lowested level as in your case and mine).
Is this how you see it? And are you attempting to fix that with the tie rods adn not shimming the trunion?
????????????
Thanks ever so much for your thoughts as well as just giving me a place to air my thinking about the problem.
"don't think its free" YOU think it is a toll call? Is that what you mean?
m9er: ONe more question. What tools are you using to measure you blade error?
Ok, two questions. What keyed you into the fact that you had a problem in the first place?
For me, I had used the saw for a few projects here and there and thought all was great. Then I cut some plywood and got some burning. Thus thinking I was pinching the wood between teh blade adn the fence at the back of the blade. SO a curious point is, was the blade off all along but was not noticable on various woods and only on the plywood, or was this problem generated voer time and only showed up after some use? Don't know. It does not really matter if I fix it unless it is an indication that my saw will have a tendance to get out of alignment again over time.
But anyway I am curious as to how you are measuring your problem.
Check to see if the bolts mounting the trunions to the underside of the table are tight. If they are, I suspect that Forest Girl has it right. When the blade is tilted, the weight of the motor puts everything in a twist and if the undercarriage is of light duty, the result could be an out of alignment blade. On the other hand, what is a few thousandths of an inch in woodworking? If it doesn't affect the performance of the saw, I wouldn't worry about it.
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled