Hi all,
Being new to fine woodworking, I find that I’m at a loss when the discussions come up about influences, experts, “the greatest woodworkers”, etc. I’d like to do a little studying to get to know the roots of fine woodworking and the biggest influences on the craft. I was wondering if you guys have some books titles or names to throw at me to get to know woodworking history and the craftspersons who honed it. Now, I’d rather this not be a debate on who is the best, just some good books on the big names as you see it. Books on furniture periods and styles would be good too.
Thanks,
Mike
Replies
Krenov, Maloof, Nakashima, should be on the short list of contemporary masters.
John Goddard, John Townsend, William Savery, Duncan Pfyfe, Eliphalet Chapin, John and Thomas Seymore, Samuel McIntire are towering figures in the late 18th and early 19th centuries in the US.
Of course, the lists could be expanded dramatically--they aren't inclusive by a long shot. For example, I have left off the Craftsman style--Green and Green, Stickley and others.
Of course there are the designers/craftsmen/authors who have given their names to styles--Chippendale, Sheraton, Hepplewhite, Adams--all British in this list.
IKEA??
...;-)
Yup, no joke . The chief of that lot is one rich turkey. There is an art to mass producing "3$% as well. Deserves one salute.Philip Marcou
Personally I find Krenov, Maloof, Nakashima, to be the previous generation of masters. The latest would be Kopf, Cederquist, Kristina Madsen, Judy Kensley Mckie, Gary Knox Bennett and many others.
http://www.furnituresociety.org
http://www.cambiumbooks.com
Judith Millers Furniture: World Styles From Classical to Contemporary (Hardcover) is a great reference book on styles. One of the better and more complete ones I've seen.
http://www.amazon.com/Furniture-World-Styles-Classical-Contemporary/dp/075661340X
One of the better magazines who profile up and coming talent is http://www.wood-mag.com
Edited 4/30/2007 9:20 am ET by RickL
Rick,
I saw your post and found the Judith Miller book on Amazon used in great shape for under $20 so I thought I would take a chance. Wow! What a great book! Over 500 pages and 3500 good size color pictures of furniture from ancient Egypt to the present day arranged in a logical way, with a description of each piece(usually including the wood species) and its dimensions. I am so glad you recommended this book.
Rob
I think it's difficult to find a time in history that rivals the Golden Age of French furniture. The ébénistes and menuisiers along with the Royal cabinetmakers put out amazing works that would be hard to duplicate today. Some of the famous names like Jean-Henri Riesener, André Boulle, Martin Carlin and many others can be researched through museums like the Metropolitan, The Getty, Musée d'Orsay and others They offer bibliographies and suggested sources of information you can follow.
http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/ffurn/hd_ffurn.htm
The Taunton Press is a great resource for more modern cabinet and furniture makers. The History of American Furniture of the 17th and 18th Century by Jeffrey Greene is a good start for understanding some of the various periods and what differentiated one from another. Taunton also has many publications on specific areas of interest like Shaker or Arts and Crafts. Just go to the top of the page and click on the "Store".
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
biggest influences on the craft ...........
Norm Abram probably did more to bring woodworking to the modern mainstream. He didn't create it, but he sure practices it. His books are good, his methods pragmatic, and his directions are actually followable.
I know. The guy many guys love to hate. Okay, shoot me.
whew - you guys don't waste time! Lots of great names to look into, thanks.
As for His Normness, he has a place - don't worry. My influences currenty include norm, my grandpa, 9th grade shop teacher, david marks, and more recently Marc Spagnolo. But, it's similar to watching Stevie Ray Vaughn play voodoo chile. Compared to the Hendrix original many feel it was played far more superior by SRV, but to truly understand the feel, emotion, and rythym behind the song you would be lacking a great deal if you didn't emerse yourself in the Hendrix original. So, As my journey begins with those who touch on the clasic techniques and styles that makes woodworking "fine", so I must look to my mentor's influences to better understand and know.
Keep 'em coming!!
Mike, as you can tell from my post I honor the past greats, and have an even greater interest in who leads today, so I'll toss in another name. Thomas Moser, IMO, makes some of the finest furniture that reflects new styles that are destined to be classics. He has a coupla books.
hey, what's the deal with woodworkers being Blues fans? Seems to me whenever someone on this board makes a reference to music it's always about the Blues. Being a big Blues fan myself I wonder if it's in our blood to like both; Woodworking and the Blues!
Roy Underhill is a huge influence on me even though he really never makes anything other than an occasional chair...
...that's because woodworkers have great taste in music ;^) Love the george/wes analogy too!
Thanks for all the replies everyone, I'm compiling my list right now.
Muddler
Tage Frid. The man taught a generation of teachers. I had two really great teachers while I was learning this craft. One was a student of Frids' in the early 1950's . The other in the early 1980's. There was a time where you could trace the lineage of most of the woodworking instructors at major programs in this country back to Frid. This was 15 or 20 years ago.
Do a search for the three volumes of "Tage Frid Teaches Woodworking". I still refer back to these books to make sure I've got it right.
-Paul
Unc, I'm with you. Tage Frid is the person that I have found to be the most inspirational for me, in many ways. I only knew him through his writing, and I will long cherish his words of wisdom.Woody
Woody,
Although I didn't learn from Frid directly, I am fortunate to have learned from his students.
I believe he was also one of FWW's earliest contributing editors.
-Paul
These are suggestions concerning fairly contemporary woodworks and are limited to design more than anything else.
Greene and Greene deserve to be known about as architects as well as furniture designers.
"creating modern furniture" (lower case on the cover!) by Dona Z. Meilach (ISBN: 0-517-524619) and "Wood Design" by Donald Willcox (Library of Congress Card Catalog Number: 68-12400 are two books I have enjoyed and been inspired by.
Cadiddlehopper
Muddler,
You have heard much wisdom. I would add the Shakers. If you ever get a chance to visit the Shaker Museum in Chatham, NY and nearby Hancock Shaker Village I think you will find much to be admired and enjoyed.
http://www.hancockshakervillage.org/
http://shakermuseumandlibrary.org/
Google on Shakers and you will find a number of other websites and photos.
As the Shakers said, "Hands to Work, Hearts to God,"
Alan - planesaw
Hey Muddler M:
I find this an interesting question. Just like many others on this forum, we've taken the journey, investigated "the Masters"....and I agree it's a good base but not the foundation.
The foundation is what YOU decide you want to build, not what a Master has already built. Maybe you'll create a foundation that will enable you to replicate a previous period of work.
In today's world, with the availabilty of information, it's to easy to get booged down in thinking about woodworking and not woodworking. Woodworking is about creating substance, your style grows only after you BUILD!!!!
What is the foundation you want to build off of???? Is it to build your own dining room of casegoods and chairs??? Is it fill your home with occasional pieces??? Is it to build your kitchen cabinets???? or are you limted in space so you build a foundation that enables you to master marquetry????
The beauty of woodworking is that there are too many disciplines to master in one life-time. YOU have to decide what YOU want to build........then look for one or two crafts people. Heck you've got a lot of names above, and I know of a bunch that are left off the list.
Start building yesterday and create substance, because the next pertinant question you'll have will be the woodworking discipline of finishing and we all know there is only one way to apply shellac...right?????
You used Hendrix and Steve Ray Vaugh in your example, I'll choice George Benson and Wes Montgomery. Benson picked one guy......that being Wes Montgomery then created first his substance with "Breez'in" then his own style.
By the way..........nobody does "Mary had a Little Lamb" better than SRV.
Build for Substance.........Neil
My video blog.........Episode 6 - Vacuum Veneering - Part 1 and 2
http://furnitology.blogspot.com/index.html]
Agreed. SRV's rendition of Mary Had a Little Lamb is the standard. I also prefer his cover of Little Wing. Hendrix was about ten min. before my time and SRV has the advantage of hitting it big as the digital age was emerging. I have no doubt both were equally great live and hey Hendrix played his guitar upside down.
I'll agree with the posters who mentioned the shakers. I've read that their matriarch invented the circular saw, though this isn't design, it certainly impacted production speed,reduced waste and encouraged varied designs. Though not a yankee myself, I admire the frugality of their designs and also the elegance and their light weight. One could argue given their housing (multi-use rooms) that they created the most flexible yet visibly pleasing furniture. So pleasing in fact, you can hang a chair on the wall as art.
As a further paean to his Normness who works wood better? As a furniture maker/designer he may be one of many craftsmen. Give the guy some logs and a wood mizer and he'll build you a house and a shop to make stuff in, then fill it full of heirlooms and when you need to get away sail away in the boat he builds you. Two guys I hope are on the plane if I get "Lost", Norm and Roy Underhill. I get it though, there isn't an Abrams school of design or a movement following his philosophy.
Thanks for the SRV reference, been listening to my iTunes selections by him since I started reading this post. My favorite just came up in the rotation. Pride and Joy. His live in Toronto DVD is great if you want to see him "live". Taped in a small club. Lot's of fretboard close ups.
One of FWW's contributing masters is Garret Hack.
Edited 5/5/2007 9:19 am ET by kenshep
Edited 5/5/2007 9:20 am ET by kenshep
Edited 5/5/2007 10:56 am ET by kenshep
First of some great names have been mentioned already. I can't believe that Marc Spagnola is in there. Nothing againsit him, he's a great woodworker, but one of the greats, not yet. And I think he would agree with that.
As for mine, I go to the designer side of things, Charles Rennie Mackintosh, Frank loyd Wright, The Eames Bros. ,current guys like Phillpe Stark.
But I agree with Neil in that you decide what you want to be and where you want to go. Take on the lessons that others have taught and expand on them. You can be great, so can Marc and myself. But we can be great even if we never heard of the Maloof or Fried.
http://www.kalafinefurniture.blogspot.com
I think one of the icons of woodworking even though he doesn't show you how to build anything is Bob Flexner. His books and articles on finishing are outstanding. "Understanding Wood Finishing" helps me out all the time.
my point to mention Marc was that, being new, my influences are only those who taught me as a child and those that I've been able to watch on podcasts or TV. These are/were my teachers to this point because they have been the most accessable. Not knowing the "greats" - a.k.a. the most influential, the innovators, the inventers of woodworking that we know today is why I posted the question. Having recently gone from utilitarian wood projects and home improvements to exploring the field of fine woodworking, I am now trying to learn who the experts are and have been. I understand that Marc, Norm, and my old shop teacher are simply students of the craft and because of this I would like to get to know where the roots stem from. No disrespect to Frid, Krenov, Maloof, Stickley, Greene & Greene, et. al. - From what I get of their personalities, I would think Marc, Norm, or David wouldn't put themselves in that category either (although David is quite the artist, I must say).
Hope that explains my intention - Muddler
Edited 5/2/2007 8:40 am ET by muddler mike
I understood your intentions, and believe me when I say that I think Norm is the most influence on woodworking in our times. There is'nt another person that has brought more people to know and love woodworking.With that said, by no way do it think that he is one of the greats. So when you asked who are these men so that you can studying them, that is why I said that guys like Marc aren't close to that category yet. Sure they can teach us things and we can learn from them, and they can become some of those greats as can we.Kaleo
http://www.kalafinefurniture.blogspot.com
I very much agree, Kaleo. Personal influences are one thing and I wasn't trying to put Mark, Norm, and David into the "great" category either. We are saying the same thing in different words! Thanks for your advice and ideas.
Granted, my grandpa was great, but on other levels :^)
What about Judy Gale Roberts, the woman who forefronted the work of Intarsia? Is she considered one of the "greats"?
Yeah, where would the world be without intarsia?
"Yeah, where would the world be without intarsia?"
It would be a cold, unfriendly, flat marquetry world.
Yeah, where would the world be without intarsia?
Hey knock it off. Grandmothers need something to hang on their walls!
Very true we are saying the same thing just differently. I would like to say that I mean absolutley no disrespect to any of those guys. I think both David Marks and Norm Abrams are masters of our times. And as for Mark, he's up there because he show us that it can be done, that one can make a living at this game.Kaleo
http://www.kalafinefurniture.blogspot.com
Dear Mud,
I like your style. You want to find the best, and emulate. Of course, defining the "best" is, at best, only interesting, not definitive. Steve Shoene mentioned some folks. I think their names were Krenloof, Malov, and Hiroshima, and then some other old guys who have been dead for a long time. To me, studying their stuff as a basis for looking toward the future would be like studying technology by reading the life of Alexander the Grape.
YOU HAVE, RIGHT HERE, IN FRONT OF YOU, SOME OF THE GREATEST WOODWORKERS IN THE KNOWN UNIVERSE (an in the unknown universe, as far as I know.) You have people like Richard Jones, Rob Millard and Ray Pine. You have guys who are both furniture makers but also tool makers: Derek Cohen, Philip Marcou and Mike Wenzloff. You can read their wisdom right here in Knots, and if you have a question for them, you can write to them. Try that with those guys I mentioned in my first paragraph. Actually, the list of GREAT furniture makers on Knots is far longer that the short list that I gave you in this paragraph. I urge you to nose around Knots, and look at photos, and read words, and figure out who you think the "greats" really are. Make a list, and modify it as you continue to learn.
Don't deify the "dead but well known" furniture makers. Don't deify anyone. Get ideas from lots of places, and have confidence in your own judgement. If you can get to be a fraction as good as the best on Knots, then you will be a highly capable woodworker. I believe that if you got to know some of the old and dead woodworking gods, you would be horrified at some of their malformed personalities. Here on Knots, however, all of the best (in my definition) are not only great, but are very friendly, courteous, and helpful. That is a hellaciously difficult combination to beat. Even if you could get a Medium to conjure up Tommy Chippendale, the cost would be enormous, and besides, it's really hard to find a good Medium. If you don't believe that, read the life of Harry Houdini. He spent the last years of his life trying to find a Medium who could connect him with his mother, and he exposed a lot of fakes, and never could find one who could deliver "Mommy".
My specialties are humor in woodworking, and in "re-asking" questions so that the asker can get even more good information. I hope that my tongue-in-cheek attempt to goad you into seeing that the most valuable resource of GREAT furniture makers is RIGHT HERE IN KNOTS. There is an old saying "A prophet is never recognized in his own land." Just because a person is a frequent contributor on Knots, does not mean that they are not a Great woodworker. It is my experience that the most seen names on Knots are not among the Best furniture makers, but many of them are a joy to read. Those on my list of the Best tend to be more choosy in what they respond to. Buy it is up to you to make your own judgements as to who constitute the Best. By the way, I have learned immense amounts here on Knots from folks like myself, who are sincere and dedicated hobbyists who take it seriously. Please don't rule this group out, as far as learning goes.
So if you want, you can hit the history books, by my suggestion is to look up the websites of Richard Jones, Rob Millard, Ray Pine, etc, etc etc, and prepare to be amazed. If I could invite any six people from history to dinner to talk over what constitutes great woodworking, it would be Richard, Rob and Ray, Derek, Philip and Mike, and not Tommy Chippendale, and the Goddards and the Townsends.
But then again, I have just introduced you to one of the conundrums of Knots. How do you know that the person who wrote to you knows what they are talking about, or has any common sense???? Why should you believe me? My ideas are definitely not mainstream. If you want mainstream, I'd stick with the advice of Steve Shoene. In reading Knots, it is up to you to use your own noggin to figure out who you should pay attention to, and why.
Welcome to our world.
Take it with a grain of salt.
Enjoy the process of learning.
Don't take yourself or anyone else too seriously (except for me. You can trust me. Send me $10,000 in small unmarked bills, and I'll prove it to you.)
Watch out for scams on internet.
Spend more time with living people than dead ones.
Never trust a naked bus driver.
Read The Prince. (the author was Italian, and all Italians can be trusted).
Buy Lie Nielsen tools from the factory, not EBAY because they are cheaper.
And never eat yellow snow.
Use those heuristics, and you will be a happy person.
Don't forget to send me the ten grand.
Don't trust people on the web until you know them.
Humor can keep you sane (if it is your choice to stay sane. Not all of my friends have gone that route.)
Have fun.
Mel
PS - another little tidbit that I have picked up on Knots. When I was very new to Knots, I really couldn't tell who really knows what they are talking about. With time, I believe I have made some headway in that endeavour. Here is an interesting thing that I have found: When i look at the list of people that I think are among the best, not a single one of them is pompous. After you are here for a while, see if you find the same thing. I also don't find many pompous folks in the lowest tier. To me, they fall somewhere in the upper middle. But then again, that is only my "reading". That might not be true, and it might not be useful to you. Make your own judgements. I am only trying, in my own offbeat way, to be helpful to you in doing what you set out to do.
PPS - Don't just look at the greats. We have a number of "up and comers" on Knots. It is much fun and quite instructive to look at their work, and they are happy to show you. If you see the name, Kaleo, look at his stuff and go to his website. He is working hard at learning how to join the ranks of the greats. Besides it keeps one feeling younger to hang around with some young folks, not just those who have already made it.
PPPS - Pay attention on Knots to those who talk about processes. Here is where all the great debates are. Here is where I do most of my learning on Knots, and where I have the most fun. I still enjoy reading the endless threads on sharpening and how to cut dovetails, and whether you should hone using diamond paste or toothpaste. You can learn an IMMENSE amount about the processes of woodwork on Knots. And I am one of those who believes that "Genius is 99% perspiration and 1% inspiration.
PPPS - If you are still reading this, you have to start spending less time on the computer and more time in the shop. You really need to re-order your priorities. :-)
Stay sane, but keep thinking.
Don't believe anything that anyone tells you until you have checked it out yourself.
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Those guys who have been dead a long time have, today, next year and the decades after, lots to say about furniture design. It¡¯s not so much about the details¡ªthe ball and claw feet or the paterae inlay. Neither is it about constructions methods, which were often sound but also which occasionally used constructions we would find inadequate. (Though furniture which as survived two or three hundred years says something about how it was constructed.)
But these dead craftsmen, by and large, had a consistent system of proportion. Oft times these were based on the classical column orders¡ªthemselves based on human proportions, and other proportions drawn from nature. Proportions were also drawn from mathematical relationships such as 1: ¡Ì2 or the golden rectangle.
It¡¯s interesting to note that of the very fine woodworkers you cited as models, and who post on this site, two of the three have careers in part based on reproducing some of the works of those very dead guys.
I would argue that no one can truly design original furniture without first having an intimate understanding of the works which have gone before and of the principles that went into their design. A designer or original pieces may very well not adopt those same principles, but it should be a considered decision, not just based on ignorance.
I¡¯ll also even suggest that to some degree it takes the passage of time to distinguish the truly great from the currently popular. To be great one's vision must not only be original, but must also be lasting. After all, fine furniture is made to last for generations, not just a couple of years.
As far as Alexander, I¡¯ll bet that some of this battles and campaigns are being studied at military academies as a part of molding future leaders.
Steve,
Thank you for writing. I believe you take me more seriously than I take myself. You have paid your dues in the field of woodworking. I have not. I warned those who read my message not to believe me. I was merely trying to open minds, and to get across the idea that the folks on Knots have a lot to offer. I have Chippendale's book, as well as many others, and I continue to study the work of the greats of the past. It would be silly not to. No one would dispute that. But too often, folks don't realize what valuable resources we have at our fingertips. Twice in my message, I believe I recommended that he pay attention to you. I also recommended that he pay attention to the new up and comers, and to those who talk about processes on Knots.As I always do, I try to make a point by overstating it. That is why I purposely misspelled the names of the greats like Krenov, Maloof and Nakashima. But, everybody already knows about them and has seen their stuff, and it is very very good stuff. If I was a reader of messages on Knots and I looked into your background and mine, I would believe you and not me. What I can offer people is not the experience that you have, but rather a different approach to resolving issues. One can talk of two types of reasoning: convergent and divergent. Convergent thinking tries to resolve issues quickly and efficiently. Divergent reasoning tries to broaden thinking, and not be "efficient" but to explore less obvious roads before coming to a conclusion. In other words, everyone in woodworking learns about Krenov, Maloof, Nakashima, the Townsends, etc. How can you not do that? But too many ignore the greats of today and of tomorrow. I was trying to get him to consider some of them. Your response to that is that these "living guys" have spent much of their time making copies of the greats of the past. To me, that is a "given". There is not only nothing wrong with disagreeing with others in this world, it is really what makes things interesting. I respect you but my views on design are probably not isomorphic with yours. I can find the golden rectangle everywhere in studying classical furniture, but I do not find it a useful tool in the overall "design" of a piece. It is descriptive rather than prescriptive. That is not bad. It is a useful tool, but it is only a tool. Also, I believe that "design" is greatly overrated. As others on Knots have pointed out, Chippendale got most of his ideas from others. I heard someone say, a few nights ago, that Hal Taylor should send parts of every check he gets to Sam Maloof. My response is "Hogwash". We all borrow. Ray Pine once pointed out that it is impossible to design a piece of furniture that is both entirely new and functional. I have designed chairs that have wings and that are uncomfortable, and that will break easily, but their roots would be hard to trace. I don't want to get too deeply into this because we wouldn't solve anything. I believe the the biggest parts of design are in making the piece:
- functional,
- relevant to the situation (money, time, space, size, expected use,etc)
- nice looking. When I look at the pieces made by Ray, Richard and Rob, I am positively blown over by how good they look and how well they were designed and made. I have never given a thought to whether they have borrowed ideas from others. I just assume that they and everyone else has and does. It is like breathing. It is impossible, and silly to try to get around that. But then again my ideas probably come from the fact that I have spent a career as a Human Factors Psychologist and not a well known furniture maker. Whenever I see that you have made a posting on Knots, I read it. I continue to learn a lot from you. Please keep it up. I hope that sometime in the future, you might find something in one of my posts that will repay a part of what I have learned from you.Well, I hope you had as much fun with this as I have had. By the way, Steve, if I ever get those six folks to come to dinner, you are invited too.
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I don't rate myself anywhere near as highly as you do Mel. I'm flattered of course that you find me, how shall I say,...... inspiring. Most people simply find me cantankerous, opinionated, and probably cussed, although I do admit to knowing a bit about the subject of furniture making.
As to who influences me, and I admire, I'm not sure I can answer that question. Certainly I've never been the slightest bit interested or inspired by the work of some of the names you mentioned, such as Maloof, Krenov, Nakashima, Townsend, et al.I guess my references amongst contemporary designer makers centre around people like Alan Peters, Rupert Williamson, John Makepeace, David Savage, and so on. Many of these characters follow on from the Barnsleys, Ernest Gimson, CF Voysey, CR Mackintosh, Ambrose Heal, etc..
On the other hand I'm fond of those that worked in the Art Nouveau, Bauhaus and Art Deco period, such as Marcel Breuer and Gerrit Rietveld. I also like some of the work by such people as Charles and Ray Eames, Le Corbusier, Mies van der Rohe, Arne Jacobsen and Robin Day. This last group hardly fit into the 'wood lovingly crafted' side of furniture making, but their work is often provocative and interesting for me as they explored new materials and technologies in interesting ways-- or at least that's what I think.
What caught my eye in your post was your reference to convergent and divergent thinking, and that you are a psychologist of one sort or another. I'm studying for a teaching qualification and educational theory is is something I'm having to wade through reluctantly.
I can report that I find most of the thinkers in this field to be some of the most obtuse and indirect communicators in the world. I came across something called 'Single Loop Learning and Double Loop Learning' by a couple of windbags called Agyris and Schon. It took them something like 3000 or 5000 words to say what they were trying to say. I can say it in four words, which are, "Learning by your mistakes," ha, ha-- ha, ha, ha.
In educational circles and educational texts I've learnt there is an essential motto to live by. It's, 'never use one word when ten will do' (sic.) Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Richard,
Thank you for writing. I am sure that you noted that when I said nice things about you, I didn't say them to you. I wasn't trying to get anything from you by buttering you up. You also noticed that I picked three woodworkers who are not of the same ilk. You and Rob and Ray do different things. I wasn't pushing a certain school of woodworking, but rather, I was trying to induce the reader to pay as much attention to the very good woodworkers of today, as well as those of yesterday.I took pains to say that you and Rob and Ray are not the only ones to pay attention to. I used the three of you as examples, and I did it for two reasons. One is, (IMHO) the thoroughly wonderful nature of your work, and the other is, you are "approachable", that is, while you may be opinionated, you are more than willing to answer questions posted on Knots, and your opinions are worth listening to. Note that I told the person who started the thread NOT to believe what people tell him, but rather to pay attention and gather ideas which he should test before accepting or rejecting. Glad to learn of your interest in Educational Psychology. I got my Ph.D. in Ed. Psych in 1970. I agree with you. Many of the practitioners in that field are windbags. There are a few who really tweak the mind. But we shall save that topic for another time. I did swap a few letters with Argyris about 35 years ago. Interesting person.My approach to teaching is not to teach. My goal is to help people "learn to teach themselves", and to take responsibility for their own learning. I try to tell them not to depend on teachers. Use teachers, but depend only on yourself. The guy who started this thread asked a question. Others gave him direct answers. (convergent thinking). That, in the language of Instructional Technology is "Didactic Instruction", which is close to convergent thinking. Someone is telling you the answer. What I tried to do was just the opposite. (divergent thinking). I didn't give him an answer. You know the old saying, "Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach him to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime." Giving someone a fish is like "convergent thinking". It is efficient, but it takes the responsibility for decision making away from the other person. I was trying to challenge the person to not only learn from the ancients, but also from the "living". I also pushed him to not believe their ideas, but to take them on as hypotheses to be tested. When you look at it like that, maybe my words about you are not so grandiose. I wasn't asking him to copy from you, but merely to learn from you and then to test what he learned. I was saying that you are an excellent source of ideas to test. Thank you very much for edifying me with those who you have studied and learned from. That is quite a list. It is broad as well as deep. (indeed, there are a few whom I will have to look up). If I can ever be of use to you in your study of educational psychology, just write me a personal message and click on "send by email", and I will be of all of the help that I can be. If I was to recommend only one author and only one book, it would be Ivan Illich's book "Deschooling Society". Let me respond to "Slainte" with the Italian "Altretanto", which roughly translates to "And the same to you".
Have fun.
Mel
PS I am happy that you thought of a compliment from me as a good thing.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel, a drawback of studying only the woodworking 'greats' is that woodworkers, furniture designers and makers, have never worked in their own own isolated bubble. They have always worked within the broader context of what's going on around them.
People cite Chippendale as one of the greats. Maybe he is, but he'd be nothing without the work of Robert Adam. You can't chuck Chippendale furniture into Elizabethan houses. The period is all wrong. Chippendale thrived because of the architecture created by those such as Adam. The relationship was symbiotic. Classical architecture required classical furniture. Chippendale provided it.
The Arts and Crafts furniture of Greene and Greene, Voysey, Gimson, et al wouldn't have struck a chord with anybody if it hadn't been for similar movements in architecture, ceramic design, glassworkers, jewellery, graphic art, cloth patterns, etc..
What's the point of Art Deco furniture without looking at Modernism as whole? Art Deco style was much influenced by Cubism, Futurism and Constructivism with geometrical borrowings from ancient civilisations such as the Egyptians. William van Alen is a well known Art Deco architect of Chrysler building fame if my memory serves me right, as is Sir Giles Gilbert Scott in the UK for the Battersea Power Station, now Tate Modern.
The list of cross fertilisation between crafts, architecture, design and art is what's really worth studying in my opinion, not just the work of a few furniture designer-makers. Even the work of Krenov, Maloof, et al was of its time. They became well known in the 1970's for the most part. I believe, rightly or wrongly, the question a student of American furniture ought really to ask is, why?
As to the theory and practice of educating the sweaty, disinterested masses, it is unfortunately a distraction in this thread. I'm having to go through some intensive teacher bloody training, and for me it's a hard slog. Educational theory has never been a topic to get my juices flowing. The writers on the subject always seem to need far too many wishy-washy, made up, wooly words to say so little, ha, ha. Slainte. Richard Jones Furniture
Richard,
Your main point: specific furniture styles cannot be understood or appreciated without an understanding of the context in which they were created. You will not get an argument from me. I really do appreciate your taking the time to describe your thoughts on the importance of context in appreciating furniture styles. It helps me understand how developed your approach to design. In the future, this could serve as a great idea for a thread in Knots. You are an articulate spokesman for: classical education, divergent thinking, and contextual decision making. What more important traits could a furniture designer/maker have? Thank you for an edifying conversation. MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
If Berger or Burkin are lurking on this thread.... Richard's 35850.31 post sure looks like the outline of an article to me!
let me just say that I'm pleasantly suprised at how civilized the conversation has been on such a potentially controversial subject. Thank you all for your responses, for every one of you have had something to offer me. This is a great group!
And Mel - I completely understand wherre you're coming from, but I do like to understand the origins before looking to the future. That kind of perspective helps me understand the "whys" - plus at least I'll know who fellow woodworkers are talking about when the subject comes up.
So for now I'll check out the old masters and the new ones, the dead and the living, trust all Italians (did I mention my last name is Marzullo?), avoid the yellow snow, and send a check for $10,000 to "9619"- no problem cashing that, right?
Mikey
Hi Mel,
Thanks for the kind words. You are aware aren't you, that you only get that check if your referral results in an order for furniture?
" No poet, no artist of any art, has his complete meaning alone. His significance, his appreciation is the appreciation of his relation to the dead poets and artists. You cannot value him alone; you must set him, for contrast and comparison, among the dead." T.S. Eliot
Mind you, I consider myself no artist, and anyway, am in no hurry to be set among the dead. Even after reading Eliot. That man, as they say, could depress a hyena.
Ray
Ray,
I had no idea that you or Richard would read my message. Now I am worried that it will go to your heads. Please tell your wife that I apologize.You must have read some books, because I often see you make quotes. I have read a few books too but they are all on how to make furniture. Because of you, I now feel that I should read one of those books that have culture or something. Or maybe, just to be more efficient, I'll buy a book of quotes by famous people, then I can include them in my messages like you do, but I wont have to actually read the books. I get headaches from those intellectual books. It still would be fun to have a dinner with you, Richard, Rob, Mike, Philip and Derek. Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
I appreciate your comments.
Like Ray, I don't consider myself an artist; quite the opposite in fact, as I lack even a tiny bit of creativity. I've often said that I'm a woodworkers equivalent of a cover band, and cover bands are never considered great.
Unlike Ray, I'm more than willing to pay for such comments, regardless of whether it results in a furniture sale.
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
Rob,
Your words, like your furniture, are masterpieces of understated elegance. You may not consider yourself an artist, but I hope you don't mind if I consider you an artist. We all have different understandings of what art is. To me, art is bringing beauty into the world through a disciplined approach. You certainly do that. I have learned a lot from your website and from your conversations on Knots. Keep up the great work. Thank you.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I ended up on this thread having followed a link on the FW main page asking who I thought the most "influential" woodworkers are. Along those lines I consider "influence" in the same way that the Discoovery Channel did when they did the "Most Influential People of the Millenium" special back in 2000. They had concluded that Gutenberg was the most "influential" person of the millenium for having invented moveable type printing (Printing Press). It took me a minute to understand why they had chosen him over all the other influential people on the list and I can see that it's because the press facilitated the work of so many others and made so many other things possible by making information available, not unlike the advent of the internet.
Anyway, I have to say that I think Norm Abram is an important figure in woodworking for a similar reason. "Influence" is not necessarily the same as "accomplishment". Norm showed many that they could do it too and the ripples of that influence will continue long into the future. It's along the same lines as "Take a man fishing, feed him for a day, teach a man to fish and feed him for life". Let's also not forget about engineers.. who the heck invented the router?
I would agree that Norm's show may have "influenced" DIYer's to try woodworking but in the twenty or so years that I've watch, I don't think I've ever learned anything from him. He'll show you what he's doing but he doesn't show you how to actually do it. He never really goes into detail about cutting joinery but rather would say "next, I go to the tablesaw and cut a 1/4" tenon using my tenoning jig." I've learned far more from The Woodwright's Shop even though Roy uses nothing but hand tools and David Marks' Woodworks is probably the best woodworking show on TV even though it's barely on anymore.
Edited 5/4/2007 4:01 pm ET by mvflaim
9619, Do you realise that you may have put paid to the next great furniture Designer/ Manufacturer as he was about to embarke on a very important project.
There I was after two years of making all the jigs and templates for God knows what and after telling "her indoors" that I would be some time in the Shed working on this masterpiece when I decided to have just one last peek at Knots. Lo and behold there was yerself after putting a whole Possey of names and books that from I can gather are MUST READ stuff to be got and sifted through before any self respecting person would consider beginning his masterpiece.
Now i'll have to spend the next couple of years reading books and keeping an eye on Knots if God spares me that long. I often wonder where these woodworkers/ craftsmen get the time to write these books. Do they ever get out for a few pints or a game of Golf or go to the Cinema or watch a Game on the TV.
They 're very dedicated people who I feel have given of there time av expertise so that others dont have to tax their brains too much to make some effort to turn out something resembling what they intended as in my case.
As always Mel your too the fore as usuall sparking the debate and adding just the right amount of "clout" to get the best out of everyone and I look forward to this even though some of it sails over my head.Methinks that the experts enjoy your imput as well ,I've noticed that the posts you get involved in are usualy of the higest no. of posts.
On my own behalf I would like to thank you for contributing to knots and pointing out and debating the exact things that I would IF I ONLY HAD THE TIME as soon as I've read all these books and finished the masterpiece i'll be in the thick of things.
Good luck and good health Slan Leat BoysieI'm never always right but i'm always never wrong. Boysie
Boysie,
I always enjoy your posts. Please keep writing. This Knots thing is fun, and one learns a lot from it, BUT, the most important thing in woodworking is to DO WOODWORKING, not to spend too much time on the computer. So if I were you, I'd forget the books for now, and make the project, AND ENJOY MAKING THE PROJECT. This particular thread is very interesting to me, because it deals with a deep issue. What should one study to become a great designer? Actually, few of us aspire to be great designers. It is fun to think about this topic, but it is way beyond me. My wife finds things that other people have designed and sayd, "Make me one of these, but make it fit in this space." That's all I need. Good direction from my wife. Enjoy the woodworking, Boysie. Next time you come by Washington, DC, please stop by, and we'll cook up some steaks and tell some woodworking lies. Enjoy.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
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