I’ve been asked to refinish a “kitchen clock” that’s a little over 100 years old. Its original finish, which appears to be varnish, has turned black and is crazed slightly. I will remove the mechanisms and strip the finish , then make a minor repair to the case. This isn’t a valuable piece, but it’s a sentimental gem for the great grandaughter of the original owner. What is the “best” kind of stripper to use for a heavily embossed case (either brand or type is OK)?
Jim
Replies
Jim,
I'd look closely at the Fromby stuff..I believe they had a product that would re-smooth the glaze and eliminate the stripping. If your intent on stripping, 3M makes a fairly mild but effective stripper which after applying you would cover in plastic to keep from drying out to fast. If there is a lot of detail, the 3M works fairly well. Just a coupla thoughts...
Jim, what specifically makes you think the finish is varnish? Did you do a solvent test? More info to follow; I'm going to do a search first.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
OK, found the thread I was looking for. BTW, the "Formby's stuff" is a "reamalgamator" and you can make your own by combining denatured alcohol and lacquer thinner. However, there is probably a better way to go. First you need to test the piece to make sure which finish you're dealing with.
You might want to take a look at the following thread, which is related to a shellac finished piece, but the same principles apply, just a different solvent, if you're tackling lacquer. The "reamalgamation" info starts in post #5.
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-knots/messages?msg=6469.1
The first thing I do with a piece like this (and I've restored a few) is clean it with turpentine. It may look suprisingly better after it's clean. Then test it with denatured alcohol to see if it's a shellac finish (Q-tip, carefully rubbed in obscure spot). If that doesn't produce a gunky bit of dissolved finish, do the same with a bit of lacquer thinner.
If it's shellac, the info in the above mentioned thread will help. If it's lacquer, and you're interested, I can post similar info for that.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 8/29/2002 10:09:57 PM ET by forest_girl
Any paint & varnish remover will remove the old finish - if you want to make sure it works on the first try get one that contains methylene chloride. Follow all safety precautions.
Use a paste or semi-paste stripper, slop on a thick coat (don't brush it back & forth allowing the solvent to evaporate), let it sit for 20-30 minutes, wipe off with scotch-brite or steel wool. Repeat as needed. Use brass bristle brushes in tight areas as needed. Follow with liberal amount of lacquer thinner and scotch-brite/steel wool to remove most of the residue. Follow this with liberal amount of lacquer thinner and clean rags (Scott box of rags works for me) to "wash" the remaining residue.
The finish is black which indicates an old varnish or possibly some other finish that was "spruced-up" with linseed oil before folks knew better. The item is not treasure (monetarily speaking) so don't worry about removing the old finish. FWIW - Lacquer came into regular use after 1920 (abundance of cotton after the war).
Paul
F'burg, VA
Edited 8/29/2002 11:04:32 PM ET by Paul
It is true that stripper will remove any finish but if you find it is shellac using denatured alcohol to remove the finish is so much easier and less messy. Do find out if it is shellac (and I would bet it is) and remove with alcohol.Gretchen
Jim,
I would reconsider stripping the finish off the 'antique' clock as it will distroy the value and forever remove part of the history of the clock. I would recommend cleaning the surface with soap and water (do not flood the surface) and leaving it alone.
Stephen Shepherd
Stephen, I agree with you about a preference to not strip such an old clock, whether or not is a "valuable" piece. However, there is a middle ground here, which is what the "reamalgamation" process does (see my post early on). It dissolves the top part of the finish and redistributes it, and adds some fresh finish of the same type as the original. I've found turpentine to be a much more effective cleaner than soap and water, and it doesn't harm the finish that is there.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
ForestGirl,
A re-amalgamator is merely stripper and finish mixed together, it is going to reduce the value of the piece no matter what it may be worth. Turpentine can effect some finishes, a test on an area that is inconspicuous will determine if it will cause any damage. The advantage of cleaning with soap and water is that it will remove any water soluable accumulations.
Stephen
A re-amalgamator is merely stripper and finish mixed together, it is going to reduce the value of the piece no matter what it may be worth.
I think we need to understand that if we are using something for our own enjoyment then we can do whatever we want to make it what we want for our houses. I choose NOT to buy chrome yellow painted pieces because I would just HAVE to strip them. The clock is NOT going to be decreased in value in all probablility and who knows--some poor soul might walk into a shop and PREFER it.
I have jsut come from the RoadShow. It has heightened the notion of "don't do ANYthing to ANYthing" but if the person wants to strip it, so be it.Gretchen
ForestGirl,
You are absolutely right, give the customer what they want, the customer is always right. While some pieces may not be of value yet, given enough time (100 years and 80% original to qualify as an Antique by the U.S Customs) all pieces of furniture or decorative art will someday qualify. Much of the original value of 'antiques' is inherent in their original finishes, reguardless of condition. If we choose to 'refinish' a piece, we are forever altering or removing the original finish, the intended look of the originating craftsman for their work. If a piece is stripped or reamalgamated, some of the original history is distroyed, it is gone forever. Certainly pieces change and weather with age, this 'patina' is important to some collectors, historians, curators and customers, if the finish of the piece has been significantly altered or removed, a certain little bit of history has been distroyed. We have a certain responsibility to maintain our historical cultural heritage, if we alter that in a significant way we have forever lost a little bit of history. Old finishes are important to some of us that want to be able to recreate or reconstruct or restore the past by copying what these fine craftsman used. If they are missing or rearranged, it can be impossible to determine what they had in mind for their work. I have gone on long enough, but I have a passion about the past, we may only have one chance to preserve it, and I will always take the chance.
Stephen Shepherd
Stephen,
Your argument is compelling but only because I can read between the lines. Ya gotta be more blunt. If some peasant comes along who doesn't know the difference between burl walnut and formica are ya gonna make him happy and paint the Goddard yellow? Many years ago I was admiring a English secretary with crotch mahogny veneer in an antique shop on Cape Cod. The owner of the shop told me that if I left it out in the rain all that veneer would wash off and I'd have a beautiful honey colored popular underneth. I almost hit the guy. When that piece was made the availabilty of crotgh mahogny was very limited, don't even think about getting walnut. The craftsman had painstakingly sliced and fitted his precious stock, used horse glue and of course a french polish... beautiful with 150 years patina.
We don't know who these craftsman were. We buy there products today for less than what the wood alone would cost us. Stephen I'm with you, honor there skill the same way we would honor a painting, music or poem. Why not is it not art?
Gee, I don't really know about this absolute prohibition against refinishing. I was shocked when I read in Wallace Nutting's book that he thought it was perfectly alright to strip and refinish certain pieces. His attitude is that you are better off with a well done old piece that has been cleaned up than a badly done new piece that is more presentable. He certainly was a very opinionated fellow, but he knew a lot about antiques.
Frank
When deciding to dress up an old wooden piece you've been commissioned to work on, or have acquired for yourself, please don't jump to Step # 2 before performing Step # 1.
Step # 1. Decide just how much alteration to the piece you feel qualified to undertake, if ANY.
Step # 2. Don't use any chemical cleaners at Step # 2 other than:
If you decide that you must do something to the piece, then use a mild soapy solution made with distilled water to begin the process. De-ionized water is better but much harder for most of us to acquire. Use a soft toothbrush in difficult to reach areas, or other physically applicable soft brushes. Use a soft lint free cloth with the distilled water-soap solution for larger areas. Wipe all the soapy solution and all dirt the procedure brings up off the piece. Be sure it's clean and dry when you finish.
Step #'s 3 through 28 I'll leave to your discretion.
Summing up: Use a mild soapy solution made with distilled water as Step # 2.
William
I make something, sometimes twice, each year.
Frank,
Okay, so maybe I went off the deep end..a tiny bit...but I do have strong opinions and don't let facts get in the way...lol
The key issue is restoration and the best way to do that. In some cases restoration is not fully possible without drastic steps. If a table came has a broken leg, it ain't restored unless the leg is fixed. So restoration is functional as well as asthetic.
Unfortunatey, restoration can also be down right wrong too. For instance, I am not a lover of antique pine....ratty, worm holed, severly marred. I would refinish, repair and maybe even paint. I could never see the value of the stuff. That is, until I saw a whole room of the stuff in a 1650 kitchen out here in Sudbury, MA. It was breathtaking. So I don't buy the stuff ..I leave it for those who would treat it properly. Not such a tough solution.
I do love antique mahogany and cherry (its a NE thing) and after raising three kids that is ratty and severly marred...the furniture not the kids. I am no expert but have been exposed to a few over the years. One of my responsibilites was caring for the hospital's antiques (willard clocks, etc.) and I used several experts from the Boston MFA, as well as craftsmans from the area. So I do have a deep respect for the discipline of restoration.
Update follows (Sunday). . . No more speculation, folks, it's varnish and mere alcohol doesn't touch it. I'm planning to use Parks paste stripper because a) it works (on a test) and b) it doesn't include some of the really bad stuff.
But I was pretty amused at how far afield some of you got with my topic which was, basically, which stripper to use. Forest Girl, and especially Paul, seemeed to get it right away, and Frank pointed out that it wasn't a sin to strip (so to speak).
But here's some more background relating to the refinish vs. restore issue: My "client" is my adult daughter who is a museum curator who at one time was the archaeologist at Sturbridge Village near Boston. She is, one might say, expert at antiquities and more than most is one who understands the value of violating artifacts and other old stuff. BUT,
a "kitchen clock" was a product of mass production in the early part of the 20th century using stamped woods and brass movements and was usually offered as ####promotional premium by the likes of A&P, Green Stamps, Jewel Tea, and other companies who served, especially, mid-western communities and farming folks. Many thousands were produced. It would be hard to find a collector or dealer who would assign much value to such a piece.
Secondly, this clock is still functional and my daughter wants it to rest on a small, but appropriate shelf (to be made by moi) in her home office. Therefor, she also wants it to look decent which means, specifically, taking off all that black crap and replacing a piece that's missing from the decorative hood so it will look attractive. All this after I, too, discussed the "antique value" with her to which she replied, "Dad, do you want to fix it or what?"
So, folks, I do appreciate all your replies, and if you'd like to see the end product one day (after this project gets to the back of the line) I'll post another message with a photo).
Jim
Jim,
OK, I contributed to this thread going far afield, so being as you are going to strip the piece, here are a few suggestions that you can take or not. When I strip, I mix together equal parts of semi-paste and liquid stripper (same brand to insure compatability) and place it in a covered glass jar. I then cut squares of denim or canvas and place the squares in the mixture. Using rubber gloves I squeeze out any excess from the cloth and place it on the surface to be stripped and smooth out any bubbles. I then cover the cloth with a piece of plastic food wrap and smooth out any air bubbles. This keeps the concentration of stripper chemicals onto the surface and prevents evaporation. For turnings or other uprights I cover the plastic wrap with aluminum foil to hold it in place. Check after 15 minutes or so and see how the stripper is working, longer if necessary. This technique prevents runs, drips and errors and provides uniform stripping. Good luck.
Stephen Shepherd
Jim Macmahon;
I'd enjoy seeing the before and after pictures (if it's not too late to get the "before").Paul
F'burg, VA
I took the "before" picture today. Don't hold your breath 'till I'm ready with the after one.
Your daughter's response,
"Dad, do you want to fix it or what?"
Says it all. The fact that she actually is a museum curator just adds to the flavor.
Fix that puppy, Dad!
Rich
Stephen, I was offering simply an alternative to total stripping. There is definitely a difference in the effect of total stripping vs. using a so-called "re-amalgamator." I've used this method to restore a couple of antique and several vintage (not by definition antiques, but quite old) tables. They maintained their character much more so than they would have if they'd been stripped, and the process is much kinder to the wood.
The original post asked what stripper to use. Easy question to answer. A couple (or more?) of us expanded the discussion to options other than stripping. A simple cleaning is not going to have any impact on the crazed finish, and it seems apparent that the owners of the clock don't wish to retain that particular characteristic. I offer an alternative that will clean the clock (so to speak), remove the crazing (hopefully) and yet retain much of the original character of the aged piece.
As someone ealier on said, this probably isn't a rare antique with huge intrinsic value. Just offering suggestions.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Q.) What do you do when the advice given ranges from soap & water cleaning to refinishing?
A.) Get more info.
To help anyone faced with this situation, or one similar, I would like to offer the sources of information listed below. Most are on-line articles, though one is a link to "Professional Refinishing" magazine - a very informative magazine that covers this topic from the perspective of the conservator AND restorer along with many other related topics. With enough information, you can make the decision that's right for you.
Here are the links;
1.) http://www.artisanwork.com/losevalue.htm
2.) http://www.antiqueadvertiser.com/carerepair.htm - read the first sentence of the third paragraph first - this article is from 1949
3.) http://www.martinobriencabinetmaker.com/newpages/conser.html
4.) http://www.homesteadfinishing.com/savingfinish.htm
5.) http://www.assoc-restorers.com/r-articles/refinishing_vs_cosmetic.html
6.) http://members.aol.com/proref1/ - subscribe and order the back issues that are still available - numerous articles on conservation and restoration
7.) http://muextension.missouri.edu/xplor/hesguide/intdes/gh2414.htm
8.) http://www.popularwoodworking.com/features/finish7.html - discussion of finish strippers
9.) http://www.popularwoodworking.com/features/finish8.html - discussion of stripping steps
Paul
F'burg, VA
Edited 8/31/2002 6:43:50 PM ET by Paul
In the original post, Jim Macmahon described the clock with this phrase, "Its original finish, which appears to be varnish, has turned black and is crazed slightly."
Among the large amount of information in the articles on conservation and restoration provided in the links above, you will find these statements;
"Restoration Work on an artifact become restoration when for example, the varnish on an artifact is severly degraded, adulterated (with an inappropriate coating) or simply missing that a new, but like varnish must be replaced, thus restoring the piece to original condition. As you can see, the line between restoration and conservation is thin. Restoration like conservation aims to keep the piece as original as possible and use techniques that are reversible. In order to help your wooden artifact hold its value, we provide a list of what has been done to it. This list should be kept with the piece or on file for future reference.
Light stripping is when you remove the top coat of finish only, leaving the color or patina, along with dents, ink stains, black water rings and other defects. Some finish almost invariably remains. The goal of this type of strippping is to preserve as much of the original makers work as possible. This preserves as much value and character as possible also. Generally this is performed on antique or somehow significant furniture and artifacts. It is done only when the varnish is severly degraded, for example: flaking off, discolored (turned black), allowing the environment to damage the wood underneath. "
Martin O'brien, Cabinet Maker "Conservation and restoration of antique furniture and other wooden objects" - http://www.martinobriencabinetmaker.com/newpages/conser.html
"Although most conservators would like to save the original finish when possible, finishes that have degraded to the point where the wood is in jeopardy should be removed. These situations include severe water or heat damage, large losses of the finish where the wood is exposed and situations where the finish is severely discolored."
Jeff Jewitt, "Saving the Finish" - http://www.homesteadfinishing.com/savingfinish.htm
If you do decide to put water on an old piece of finished wood, please do it in accordance with the guidelines you'll find in the articles. If the crazing penetrates the finish or there are any exposed areas of bare wood, the water can do far more harm than good.
Paul
F'burg, VA
Edited 8/31/2002 11:32:18 PM ET by Paul
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled