Why do I feel like I spend most of my time correcting mistakes?
1. How do I remove the burnish line caused by the flush trim bit on my mahogany ply top?
2. What about those two 1 inch scratches that mysteriously showed up across the grain?
3. Must the top be uniformly colored after sanding, (ie, I oversanded some areas)?
4. Are those odd hard spots the glue from the plywood coming through?
Will the wood filler I’m going to use, along with lots of dark stain, a seal coat of shellac and varnish going to hide any of these defects? Thanks, Todd
Replies
TODDHUNTER,
Know how you feel. Check out my post titled "Humbug and Humility"
I think a major part of the craft of wood working involves learning (the hard way) about making mistakes and then repairing same, then learning intrinsically about the nuances in material (wood) and avoiding such dilemmas in future through careful step by step procedures. It seems that each species and wood product has its own personality and one method will not necessarily work for all.
Scratches can be touched up with one of those stain pens. I like the pens by Minwax. Often your finish will blend away scratches. If not, a sharp cabinet scraper may remove cross grain blemishes. Scrape with the grain of course.
sawick
Todd,
Here's my experience.
1. The burnish line typically goes away when sanding or scraping. (For the future, what is causing it? Can it be fixed through an improved router bit?)
2. The scratches can be removed via sanding although scraping is usually better since it gives better control and helps to keep you from going through the veneer on plywood. (For the future, what caused them and how do you keep them from reocurring? Check all tools that moved across the surface or surfaces that the panel moved across. Sometimes, the tiniest piece of grit can cause the most damage. We've all been there.)
3. If you've oversanded some areas on mahogany plywood, through the veneer, you have a major finishing problem. The glue that holds the thing together doesn't take stain in any way shape or form and you wind up with a bright splotch that sticks out like a sore thumb. I've tried many ways to fix this in the past but almost always end up making a new panel. (At the cost of cabinet grade plywood, it's an expensive lesson.)
4. Yes, that's exactly what they are. See above.
You've learned a valuable lesson and we've all been there. Others will have fixes, none of which I've taken the time to learn so far. I've been fortunate enough to not have this happen for a few years ever sinceI had to make an entire dining room table top over when I sanded through the veneer in one small corner. $96 worth of cherry plywood have become a temporary shop table as a reminder. (I also keep a beautiful frame and panel door hanging on one wall to remind me the measure twice and cut once. The cabinet I was making it for was an inch wider than I thought.)
Kell
I'm not giving up! I may just go with it as is, without any more sanding, which only gives me trouble. I don't think I can get out the burnish. Too minute and close to the edging. I don't think this is the moment to learn how to use a scraper. I can live with the scratches (distress!), and whatever variations in the stain/finish will be overshadowed by the overall wondrous look of a new mahogany top on a restored 2 pedestal desk.
Have I convinced you yet? Maybe I should have gone with the edge glued slab...
T
A couple of other lessons:
1. Learn to use a scraper. Avoid flush trim bit when bearing has to ride on show side. I had warning about this problem, but how do you "not push too hard?"
2. Protect piece from grit and damage to the end. I'm sure the scratches occurred at the last minute, probably when I put a piece of mdf on it--to protect it.
3. Remember how thin ply is. Use only 220 grit or higher? Don't use plywood.
<Edit begins here:
Todd, you beat me to yourself. I'll leave my post up, anyway, just in case it encourages someone else to learn to use a scraper.
Edit ends here.>
Todd, just my 2-cents, but I'd say you should definitely take the moment to learn how to use a scraper, because that's literally all it takes.
Of course, it will take longer if you try to learn by yourself and using books, but you might consider contacting (or posting a request for) a local, experienced woodworker to show you how it's done: prep and usage. With a good teacher, it took me all of 15 minutes to learn (and I'm not bragging -- everyone in the class learned just as quickly).
For my money, the card scraper is one of the cheapest, easiest and most elegant of tools. Always handy, incredibly useful... a must.
Anyway, didn't mean to get on ya... but don't cheat yourself out of such a simple solution.
David
Look, I made a hat -- Where there never was a hat!
Edited 11/20/2002 9:57:43 AM ET by davamoore
I do plan to learn. I even have a nice little set from Rockler that includes the file and burnisher. I just meant I am reluctant to try too many new techniques on one piece at this point. BTW, are you any where near Chicago...?
I'm bi-coastal -- Chicago (north side) and Kalamazoo (actually, the boonies near K'zoo). For those of you unfamiliar with the layout of the Midwest, I'm talking both sides of Lake Michigan. Here's an easy way to figure out where I am at any given moment:
If you see me on Knots, I'm in Chicago, spouting off here as a substitute for being in the workshop. If I'm in K'zoo, where my workshop is located, I barely turn on the PC and go completely AWOL. Well, OK, I still pop in from time to time, but not nearly as frequently.
DavidLook, I made a hat -- Where there never was a hat!
Well then, you can show me how to use my scraper, right?
BTW, I'm bi-user-named (sorry I couldn't come up with anything clever). When at the office, Sorethum1, at home, toddhunter. I just couldn't remember that password at home. Or whatever. So when's the scraper lesson? Todd
Todd, I'd be happy to share what I know about scrapers, but my lawyers require me to tell you that you'd be learning at your own risk! Not of injury, per se, but of obtaining and retaining any misinformation I might pass on!
But seriously, I'd be happy to show you what I know. The next ten days or so are out, at least as far as Chicago is concerned. I was in Chicago this morning, but came back to Michigan this afternoon, then I'm heading over to the "other" east coast (Atlantic) for Thanksgiving, etc. But anyway, we can take this offline, just to spare everyone else the details. Feel free to send me a note at [email protected].
DavidLook, I made a hat -- Where there never was a hat!
The burnish marks are really just dent. I'm not seriously thinking about trying this, but wouldn't some water and heat work, if it could be applied precisely? I doubt it's practical, but...
Todd, you said it was mahogany plywood, right? And it sounds as if the "burnish"/dent marks are on the edge -- am I still right?
If both of the above are true, I don't think the heat/water technique would raise the dent successfully. I have a feeling that the glue between the layers of plywood would cause problems... if it's not exterior grade plywood the glue might fail, and even if it doesn't fail it certainly wouldn't swell back up like the surrounding wood fibers, which might also swell differently since each layer of plywood is oriented at a 90-degree angle to the layers above and below.
In essence, I think you might go from an even dent to an uneven fix.
DavidLook, I made a hat -- Where there never was a hat!
Does your flush trimming bit have a ball bearing on it? If so, and it's still causing the burnishing, it means the ball bearing isn't turning properly or at all. Check to insure that it moves correctly and you, at least, eliminate one problem for the future. If it doesn't have a ball bearing, time for a new bit!
I agree with the thread about the scraper. Extremely easy to learn and use. Hard part is learning how to tune it properly but even that's less than an hour's worth of learning. For a lifetime of smoothness! (This message was brought to you by Sandvik, the big name is small scrapers. No charge for that plug guys.)
Kell
Your cabinet door sounds alot like dresser #2 I had to make to go with the drawers from dresser #1.
sheepishly,
Scott
LOL! Eventually I guess you use up all the misfits. Glad to hear it happens to others. I was concerned it might be the first indication of getting old. Then I realized I'd been doing it since I was about 25!
Have a great weekend.
Kell
A couple of thoughts. Assuming you have a good bearing on your bit your probably denting the veneer because your pushing to hard. This may be because your trying to balance to big of a router on too narrow an edge. Try using a fence under the router instead of the bearing, clamp a wider board to the panel to support the router and/or use a smaller router. I use a PC310 laminate trimmer as a mini router because I can one-hand it and have a much better feel, lighter touch. If your edge banding is thick enough use biscuits registered off the show face to align the edge banding flush.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
Life is tough. It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne
I built an extended base for my router out of off cut plywood. The bit I used was a rockler and yeah, I probably pressed too hard. So now I am just going to live with the burnish. It's very close to the joint, and after several coats of stain, filler and finish, who knows, maybe it won't be so noticeable. I started all this by saying I often feel I'm spending more time on fixes. I then realized I often spend even more time fixing the fixes, which don't work. Sometimes I just have to sit back, take a deep breath and realize it's all just a learning process. And of course, I'm my biggest critic. Fortunately, everyone else seems to like the results. Thanks to all.
After posting, I remembered I used a 2x4 on edge clamped to the opposite side of the board as support for the router, not the extended base, which I used for the roundover and tenon. What I got was a nice uniform burnish. Sorethumb/Toddhunter
Plywood is infinitely unforgiving in that you have less than 1/32" of veneer to work with. I'd say the answer to most of your problems is to become an expert on putty, burn in sticks, touch-up sticks, toned lacquers, and the like. You simply have no room to plane or sand down past the 'problem.'
Use baltic birtch plywood and thick sawn veneers that you cut, thickness, and glue yourself. Use good, dramatic, highly figured wood on the outside, and boring wood of the same species on the inside. ALWAYS TREAT BOTH SIDES OF A PANEL PRETTY MUCH THE SAME OR END UP WITH CUPPING. There are loads of advantages to thick cut veneer:
- Lots of room to sand, scrape, and otherwise screwup without losing the panel.
- Wood that no one would laminate to the plywood commercially
- A wood-like rather than sliced surface and greatly improved figure.
The figure improves because the wood is not bent around the edge of a slicing knife. When this happens, the fibers bread and the wood looks like hardwood plywood instead of wood. Look in back issues of finewoodworking for info about resawing.
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled