I’m back to having to log in each visit. Almost no one is left, the band-width cost of this forum can’t be that much now. What’s wrong now?
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Forum
It seems that everyone has just drifted away to other places. You will see some familiar names on some of the other sites.
Everyone will have their own reasons but I suspect that it is related to the forum change. Judging from the many negative comments, the members just have not embraced the change here.
Steve Pippins
Larry,
Every two weeks or so, the log on seems to go futzy. It gets old playing the log on game.I suspect as far as the log on, the web meisters futz around for a bit and then a reset is required. Too frequently.
I check the forum out in the am but usualy for not more than a few minutes since the change. Very little here and everyone (almost) is gone. I'm always a bit surprised when I see you and some of the older ones check in.
BB
Seldom, if ever do I come here anymore. Used to check it out every day. Real shame. This used to be a place to come for real wood conversations where you knew most of the posters. The other sites, except for Wood Central, are mostly pretty lame, amatuer hour affairs at best...even FG does'nt check in much anymore....
I suspect the problem is with how the software deals with cookies and how/when they expire. I hit that every once in a while, log in each time for a day or two, then stay logged in for weeks. No apparent pattern.
inexplicable
Larry,
I can't understand the log in problems. I had to log in 4 times just to reply to this thread, after being denied access 3 times. Now I see the one great feature of the forum is gone; namely the list of categories along the left hand side, that could be clicked on, and at a glance see recent activity. I still check in at least twice a day, but there is rarely anything to add.
i can't really explain the decline. Other woodworking forums I frequent seem to be thriving or at least holding their own. This place used to be like getting a new woodworking magazine in the mail every day of the week.
Rob Millard
Presentations of information have serious limitations ..
I can put up with having to log in each time. That is not the deal breaker for me.
The bigger issue for me is that I find it difficult to maintain the type/level of "conversation" we had on the old forum. Specifically, having a running commentary with pictures inbedded so that one can clearly demonstrate a process .. well this is now a thing of the past. I cannot post articles or posts that benefit from and would therefore have sequential data. And I find this most odd in this new visual world. The current forum format is closer to a text based forum with pictures that can be added as an after thought. As a consequence, there are fewer posts that interest me, the forum has lost its zest, and has become boring. I log on frequently, scan for something interesting, then go somewhere else disheartened.
Regards from Perth
Derek
The Blogs
When I stop by I end up spending more time reading the Blogs than I do the forum. The forum is pretty much dead (or on life support). At least the Blogs have something of value. I've been here for almost five years and thoroughly enjoyed visiting and conversing with people. However for the past year I've been scanning the recent topics looking for something that catches my eye then leaving.
This forum is just terrible. I don't care if it's still a work in progress or not. It's been in beta for over a year and has not improved since the day it went on. It sucks but I got over it and moved on. I use to be an online subscriber but not anymore. I even let my magazine subscription expire last month.
Life goes on.
Rob,
in addition to the left hand side being gone, I noticed that they have pruned a couple years worth of messages of my activities. I guess they think 2 years worth per member is allocation enough .
Server space is soooo costly. I think they have really lost their way.
You keepin up with the photography?
Derek, you and Larry need to have more steel discussions to liven things up a bit.
Some one needs to dis Stanley's new 750 chisels....
David (Ring) is doing his part on the fine kitchen side even if he's trying to corner the world market in French Oak, although I think retirement is coming up in January.
Dusty is trying to keep up the coastal contributions but he can't do it all. Forestgirl needs to take Dgreen to task and have him back for a bit. I know Bob(kiddervilleacres) is out there- I can hear him breathing.
And whomever asked about Lataxe -- I agree, that is a wonderment.
And Will -- you need to take some of the blame also as your contributions have dropped alot. Two grandsons -- does this mean another set of twin beds?
BB
Photography consumes most of my "free time"
BB,
I keep clicking away; closing in on 16000 photos on the D-300. Sometimes I "see the light" and other times I'm very dissatisfied with the results. I bought a roll of cinefoil, and it has helped to control the light. I don't like the almost black backgrounds I see in some woodworking magazines, but I think my overly bright backgrounds are very distracting..
I hadn't noticed only 2 years of posting remain. The last time I checked, my history went back to 2002..
PS I tried repeatedly to add a photo to this post, but it would not work.
Rob Millard
well at least they haven't wiped out our avitars like the last t.......wait a minit...... damn
somebody get the crash cart she's going down the tubes.
Geez Louise! Avatars gone, and I just checked a post I made last week with a photo and get page not found when clicking on the jpg. This is so sad I really loved this forum it helped me a long so much. To see it die like this is truely sad. I know you FWW guys are great at woodworking, but I think you need some IT guys to make your IT decisions. I'm thinking my six year run here is coming to an end. See everybody over at sawmill creek.
All pix... gone.
A bunch of pictures I spent a lot of time looking for and posting to answer a question about company boards on tables are all gone too. I'm starting to think, why bother anymore? Tried to restore my avatar and it won't take. Too big. Same size as before, so I don't know. I'm going to try pulling in a picture and see what happens.
EDIT: Well there you go. We can post pix but you can't actually see 'em.
Power in numbers
I think the power of the former site was in the number of voices that once gathered here. There were so many ideas, opinions, and questions. There was a lot of wisdom in the numbers. Great thought, questions, advice, experiance, and at times a stray sheep with a black coat. All added power and value to this site in my eyes.
It now seems that the number of contributors here have been reduced. Those who left took their wisdom, colorfull stories and opinions. Now there are fewer posts on even fewer threads. The value has been reduced with the number of contributors as one might now recieve 10 solutions to a question that once yeilded 50.
If you are one of the 10 who respond, who stuck around, and are willing to share, Thank you. Your solutions are more important than ever.
GRW
Bull's eye
I think you've hit the nail on the head. Every couple weeks I log in here and see what is new, spend an hour or so. I'm now active on a couple other forums (Canadian Woodworking and Festool Owner's Group), though I don't spend much time on any forum. For me, I've been just too busy doing woodwork to check forums. I guess that's good. I read a good quote the other day:
"Woodworking is 3% talent and 97% not paying attention to the internet."
Now you see 'em... now you don't. I was looking thru the CMT thread here and clicked on a picture and was surprised to see it come up. The second picture came up "page not found" so I clicked again on the first picture, and now it was "page not found" too.
I feel like a worm
I sometimes feel like a worm . . . eating at the corpse of a once-great resource.
I fully understand the need to change from the old forum software. They were locked into a contract at high, old-Internet rates using proprietary software that was no longer supported. But, I think the tech team botched the conversion all around. Better software could have been selected (e.g. vBulletin), and even with this software, the data fields didn't align, so much of the member information didn't get imported. Then, there was the issue of the attitude of the lead person on the tech team when the failings were pointed out here, and on the other Taunton forums.
My assumption is that Taunton has had to downsize due to the economy, so I'm guessing that many, if not all of the tech team that worked on the forums are no longer on staff. So, we're probably stuck with the forum in its current state for the foreseeable future. Or, until other parts of it break due to poor implementation. Disgruntled subscribers not renewing their subscriptions only exacerbates the problem, of course.
But, I remain hopeful that Taunton will be able to pull itself, FWW, and Knots out of the doldrums. So, I continue to participate where I can, and continue to renew my subscriptions. After all, the savings from not renewing would only buy me a couple of board feet of stock. ;-)
I've been waiting for the 'For Sale' sign to go up FWW.
New sites
Does anyone have recommendations for other sites -
I visit homestead - sawmill - and woodnet -but this had always been my first choice -
Is there anyplace similar to the way this site was ?
SA
other sites?
Well, there IS WOOD's little site, but not very friendly to newcomers. While they don't have "moderators", they do have "Community Managers' , whatever that is. There is a small "Clique" of buddies running the show there, run afoulf of them, and you'll be booted back off.
The American Woodworker; New site, kind of slow, it does have a "Chat Page" that< IF someone else is on, you could talk to in "real time". Pictures are easy to post.
American Woodworker ( from the magazine of that name) not bad, a little slow though, not much in the way of talking going on.
What is with Woodnet? All I got was a French language page.
As for an avatar, just tried to do one......NADA. Hmmm? Maybe I'll try a picture here HMM, I see....
Woodnet
http://www.forums.woodnet.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php
Funny that I should log on and stumble upon this thread. Nothing much that I can add to what has already been said except note that the old girl is dead. Too bad - this was once a viable forum. I have found the the handtool section at Woodnet to be a fun, friendly, and informative forum. I have recently begun making saws, and there is quite a bit of that going on over there. Also, Sawmill Creek is a good place - and - mostly troll free! See you guys at one place or another.....
-Jerry
Well, whitedogstr8leg, this just about sums it up in a nutshell. You posted a picture. I opened it up. It was a cartoon of a camera with a line thru it and under the camera was the word "table".
There is some hidden meaning here from our friends at FWW and I am going to go to bed and ponder it.
There once was a forum called Knots
Loved by young folk and geezers and sots.
Now it's gone down the tubes,
And we all feel like Rubes
As we sit here and watch while it rots.
Login is a minor issue, people abandoning this site is major
Larry:
FWW has sat by and watched a great resource slowly dry up. The software is part of the problem, but the staff's seeming disregard for folks abandoning the forum is hard to wrap one's brain around. It is obvious this site doesn't generate direct revenue so it is seen as optional, perhaps even a nuisance. I hate to see it go by the wayside. So where are you and everybody else hanging out these days. Knots is the only forum I have spent my time on?
gdblake
There is a forum set up like the old Knots but it's not very active
http://forums.delphiforums.com/burl/start
I would like to see some traffic on your forum, I wish people would use it as this place will never be what it was.
Larry,
Your question generated more responses than any post in a long while. I read all of the replies. Sounds like we are at a wake.
This website does not add to Taunton's bottom line. Taunton leadership obviously knows that Knots has gone down in membership and number of posts They remind me of GM in the period from 1960 2008 - they are watching the ship sinking and not doing what it takes to fix things. It may be that the only way Knots can be fixed is if Obama puts the government in charge of it, so they can replace the management. Ha ha. Just kidding.
A lot of the interesting posters have just gone. I have contacted some of them, such as Samson. They just aren't coming back. I can understand that.
I used to enjoy some of the lunacies of the old Knots, such as when Charles would get Adam all spun up. Wow. That was fun. Not much useful in it, but fun nevertheless. I miss Charles with his "tough love" approach to telling people who asked idiot questions to back to the shop and do some work. I miss the long threads in which you participated. You made an effort to help me out on some hand plane an moulding issues. I am in your debt. Thank you very much.
I miss the rants that some of our rant-ier members used to get on. Great fun. A few of them made me think, and that is a good thing.
Richard Jones used to be a hoot, but he is not a happy camper here anymore. I miss the old Richard.
Whereas Charles taught with a sledge, Ray Pine teaches with original humor. Ray still stops by, but not as much.
Bob of Rainville acres was always a big and positive contributor. He got involved when FWW tapped some of the Knotheads and put a "hammer" nest to their names. Bob got one of those things. I don't think he enjoyed it when things got rough. I don't think we'll see much of him anymore. I talk to him on email once in a while. Nice guy.
I liked it when things got unruly. Too many people were kicked off for a few months when that happened. That backfired. Some of our best just decided not to take it anymore.
Derek says he thinks that the problems with photos are making it impossible to do the kind of photo essays that he liked to do. I don't think that is so. Not many folks did such photo essays. Samson did the best of them, but it was only one. Lataxe tried a few but they were not so well attended. in the end, Derek tried a few where had almost no participation despite a lot of work on his part.
We used to have a lot of people who enjoyed mixing it up here in different ways. That is gone. We used to have threads that went on for two or three hundred posts. One went to 6000 posts and it lasted over three years. Now a long thread is 30 posts.
Why? because a lot of the "fun" people left.
Why? lots of reasons, but the focus on "cleaning up the nasty behaviour" which really wasn't very nasty, took a big tole, and the move to the new format was the trigger for folks to go elsewhere.
I miss the old days. BUT I DO A LOT MORE WOODWORKING NOW, so it is not all bad.
Have fun. I hope your business continues to do well, and that you enjoy life.
Mel
WOW, many many months since I have been here, it really is dead. "The Burl" over at the the Delphi site where the new Cooks Talk and new Breaktime are at would be great if folks came over. Those old forums are very much alive and well with all the former players from the originals.
Sad, just sad.....
General problem
Taking the left hand pane off this forum site has made it even more painful to search for new postings of interest. But Taunton has a more general problem with their computerized offerings. For example, whether it is a forum or a DVD of magazine back issues, searches are painfully slow. Compare how long it takes to do a Taunton computer/web search with, say, an Amazon search. Perhaps ten times as long. And Amazon is searching many, many millions of records not just thousands.
I don't know whether Taunton prepares their computer offerings in house or uses an outside firm. Either way, they are firmly mired in 1998 performance.
And that's a shame, because their printed offerings are so outstanding.
Mel,
Good review of things. But, I never did like the attitude of name-calling when it occurred. However, I always enjoyed the varied opinions and even disagreements of opinions. I just don't have time for what, in my opinion, I would call the immaturity of name calling and verbal assaults.
This used to be the best of the forums. I learned a lot from a lot of folks here. Hate to see it in such a sad state. Won't surprise me that when this finally dies my subscription (hard copy and online) will die also.
Also wouldn't suprise me if FWW is the least profitable of their mags and hence the purposeful death spiral.
It has been great to see folks of PopWW in person at various woodworking shows. They seem to certainly have made PopWood a very good mag these days.
Of course, it was on this site that you and I met and spent a weekend making Shaker oval boxes together. A memorable weekend getting to actually meet you and spend time with you on an adventure learning new skills and techniques.
I do wish FWW editors / publishers would simply declare what their intentions are here. Either kill it or tell us they want to grow and improve Knots.
Well, happy Thanksgiving.
Ditto
I can only add "me too" to the many posts above. As an old timer - over 7 years - Knots used to be part of my morning Internet routine. I don't bother much nowadays. The absence of the left-hand column was the last straw.
Changes are listed as "as of March 12th" yet, it seems something is removed or degraded every week.
I am a member of a small writing group (I joined after wrist surgery put me in a cast for six weeks). I once wrote an essay titled "My Friends I Cannot See". In the essay I mentioned all the folks I enjoyed communicating with on Knots: Sarge, Bob, Forest Girl, Mel - you get the idea.Now most are gone - and I'm afraid that I will go too.
Frosty
Frosty,
I miss seeing you around here. Oh well. By the way, do you know what happened to Sarge Grinder and Forestgirl? Has Charles shown up on other forums? Bob isn't doing as much woodwork as before. Lataxe is out of woodworking, from what I hear. Neither of those things is due to Knots.
They say that great empires last about 200 years. Of course, the US has been around that long. But maybe Knots has just run its course, and that is the nature of things. I'd like to think current problems could be fixed, but I wouldn't bet on it.
Have fun. I believe you have my private email address. Please stay in touch.
Mel
Quick Reaction On One Thing...
Well, the astute GEide did jump on the "No more discussion about religion" thing right quickly. Of course, that prompted the clever and sarcastic to chime in with marginally relgious responses. She vanished quickly - no time to talk, must work, work, work. The editor John White has time for decent responses, but he seems somehow detached from the whole Taunton thing. Maybe he is like Betty Crocker or Mrs Butterworth - just a PR shill. Though he does appear to be a real woodworker.
The magazine is functionally dead, the forum is also. They don't want long-trem adherents, just the guys that are entering the field with scads of fresh cash and dreams and an as-yet-empty garage. This crop is easy to turn over for fresh meat. Although, look how long all you guys have held on. And here I am.
I saw an add for a $29.00 miter saw on TV. The only possible reason for this tool to exist is not to function as a tool, but as a reason to leverage $29.00 from someone's pocket. Rather a whole lot of someones. Increasingly, this is the goal of a consumer based economy. Following this to its logical conclusionm means we will all have our own episode on "Hoarders"
Yes, this does feel like a wake. Quiet voices, small groups, no loud laughter please. Show some respect for the dead. Over the last few days when it was offline I figgered that was it - they pulled the plug and went home, cutting everyone loose with nary a good b' ye' or a thank you.
Dave Sochar
Go to Web and Mag feedback.
GEide just heard about the problems we reported on Sunday.
Lazarus may have arrived
Just saw a post in For Sale with a photo attached - sprayer.
It's fixed but all test pix during the problem are gone. All avatars and pre and post problem pix are back. Thank you FWW. Sorry about the rant.
And Will -- you need to take some of the blame also as your contributions have dropped alot. Two grandsons -- does this mean another set of twin beds? Did I type two boy grandbabies? Geeee. I have two grandsons that are babies and one that just turned 18. I guess that makes three?
Two more poster beds... Well, if I hade any money I would but money is very tight these days.....
Why does sawmill creek require a full name?
I've noticed a lot of folks have migrated to sawmill creek, but They require that you use your full real name. I'm not worried about anyone on the forum, but there are so many phishing tools that can correlate tidbits of information, I'm reluctant to put my full real name out there. Does anyone know what prompted that requirement?
admin policies
Every forum has its own administrative policies. There's no law that they need to be reasonable or even sensible.
Ralph,
What you say is absolutely true:
"Every forum has its own administrative policies. There's no law that they need to be reasonable or even sensible. "
It is also true that every tool maker has their own policies on how to handle customer in all phases of the business. Some are superb. Some of the policies are not so good. As you know, I think VERY HIGHLY of the businesses of Rob Lee and Thomas Lie Nielsen. They have excellent policies which make for loyal customers. THey don't have to treat customers as well as they do, BUT THEY DO. And there is a good result from it. Everyone knows their business from sales to service is top notch.
Would you like a list of businesses with lousy policies for handling customers?
Would you like a list of woodworking tool companies which have gone under? There is some carryover between the two lists.
Knots belongs to Fine Woodworking. FWW has a good reputation, and should continue to ensure a good reputation in all phases of their business. They are not "Weekend woodworker on a budge". FWW would be better off, if they don't intend to make and keep Knots TOP NOTCH, which highly satisfied customers, then they should drop Knots altogether. THey shouldn't do things poorly, or things will backfire. Think of General Motors. Look at what happened to Toyota after they build a great reputation, and then put salesmen in charge. It will be a long slog back for Toyota.
I recommend FWW either insure that Knots participants are very satisfied, or drop Knots. I am looking at this from a strictly business point of view. TO SPEAK PERSONALLY, I am hoping that this thread is read by the owner of Taunton, who then realizes how bad things are, and takes matters into his own hand and makes the command decision to MAKE IT WORK so that customers are very satisfied. Personally, my second recommendation would be to post a nice message to the Knotheads, thanking them for their support, but letting them know that it just doesn't make good business sense to pay the cost of keeping this forum going. Of course, Knotheads might wonder why other forums are doing so well, and yet FWW can't get it together. Life is tough.
Have fun. Stay sane. Do some woodwork.
Mel
They believe that if you must post under your own name you will be more civil and responsible in your language. And, Sawmill Creek is that--a bit tame for some.
Richard, Any news about your book. I still want the 1,000,000 copy autographed. Jimmy
Still working on it Jimmy. As I do all the work in my own time it's a fairly slow process as I have to fit in working on it between everything else that's more pressing. There's also the issue of getting recognised experts to peer review sections which always means adjusting the text to reflect their input and new sources of information those experts may point me to, etc.
I've been held up on the task significantly these last two or three months: my wife (the Texan) took seriously ill in early September, and this has meant devoting a great deal of time and energy to her needs as well as holding evrything together on the home front in her absence. I still manage to fit in two to five hours on writing most weeks, but it's difficult to develop a train of thought in those circumstances. Slainte.
Richard,
I am very sorry to learn of your wife's health issue. Nothing is more important than taking care of her. My prayers are with her and with you. WHat is happening here in Knots is trivial and not important in the scope of things. My best to her and to you.
Mel
Thank you Mel. That's very kind of you. Slainte.
Well, I pop in here once every 3 or 4 months, and each time, it is less interesting, and even harder to use.
Mel, you said it well. This is most likely the wake before the funeral.
Richard, I'm very sorry to read that your wife is having health problems. I hope that everything improves for her, you and your family in the near future.
I don't spend any time here like I used to. The cold shoulder and slap in the face from the "powers that be" during the changeover really turned me off. There are plenty of other woodworking forums out there, but unfortunately, I haven't found one that even comes close to the old "Knots". It was a fun time participating in the forum for me, but it is obviously over, and time to move on.
My interests have changed to restoring old woodworking and metalworking machinery. It has been a lot of fun restoring pieces of machinery from America's glory days of manufacturing, back when this country actually made something. I hope to see a few of you out there in cyberspace.....perhaps at http://www.OWWM.org, which is our community of forums. Some very knowledgeable woodworkers are a part of the community, and the woodworking forum is not too bad. No arguing, though.......none at all. It's not allowed. You wouldn't be happy there, Mel.
Happy Holidays, and Happy New Year to you all.
Jeff Heath
And with good reason
After 4 days of trying I finally was able to post a project in the Gallery. I got so frustrated that 2 days ago I posted over in SMC and have 9 comments and over 550 viewings. The last time I posted this same project as WIP in Knots, I got one response. Viewing the Gallery as well as other topics, it is clear that participation has fallen off .
I search in vain for posts from Knoters that used to be prolific contributors and who porvided interesting observations as well as constructive critique.
This forum was a community: I'm not sure what it now is but it is not a place that I enjoy spending time with anymore. In January I will drop my online mebership and probably the FWW mag as well since it too seems to have outlived its usefulness, at least for me.
Doug
Basically, Knots is now imitating a lame duck. I can't think of any other woodworking forum that I visit regularly, and that's not very many so perhaps I can't really judge, that operates in such an odd manner. For a start, it must be the slowest loading forum on the internet. It takes anywhere between 15- and 20 seconds between clicking on anything in Knots and it actually opening up, and I use broadband connections on various computers at various locations to access the internet, and it's slow on every one of them.
You can't really see who has replied to whom, and you can't include images in your reply. Threads often seem rather threadbare and sterile-- just a few answers and the thread's pretty much closed as a subject: and no ding dongs as of old as people batted stuff around. Maybe the slowness is the big problem, and the general user unfriendliness a real off-putter. Slainte.
Imitating or Is?
You just get use to the dumb way it works, then they crash it only to lose some other basic function. Now dumb is dumber. Dumb seemed ok for a long time. Maybe the traffic count got to high!
Fortunately most of the archived material is available externally through Google.
Don
Written almost a year ago:
http://jeffnolan.com/wp/2010/01/04/man-bites-dog-or-who-really-owns-a-community/
"The lesson that Taunton should be learning is that online communities represent a cooperative effort between the sponsoring entity – the folks that host the physical infrastructure – and the core community members that generate the content that makes the community compelling. When this balance is upset the turbulence is difficult to stabilize as the most valuable contributors leave and community momentum is lost. Companies have valid and understandable reasons for wanting to leverage online communities for editorial content, premium subscription services, and advertising, but all of that is premised on their actually being a vibrant community to build out those strategy objectives. Who owns a community? I say it’s the members and companies that lose sight of that lose far more than just a few ad dollars."
Thanks Woodman41 (Jeff?)
To Woodman41 / Jeff Nolan (if you are one and the same),
Thanks. I clicked on your link and Wow! Words clearly from someone who knows what they are talking about.
When I was a kid my dad had FWW for sale in his hardware and building supply store, so I sort of grew up with it. That was decades ago. FWW and Knots Forum was a huge resource for me when, later than I wish, I began serious fine woodworking. It has been very sad to see the decline (very obvious, and I am not a forum or software expert) of Knots. FWW might stay profitable (if it is) but I can't help but think that the decline (maybe eventual death?) of Knots will impact subscriptions to FWW.
PopWW is probably giving them a run for their money at Taunton. I would think that if PopWW ever develops a Forum that looks and functions (at least to us users) much like the Knots before this version that PopWW will wind up with an increase in subscriptions, literally by FWW subscribers moving over. Not everyone, of course, but significant enough to make a difference and impact advertising revenue for each magazine.
The people at PopWW come across more like the average subscriber and woodworker. They are at many woodworking shows and are very personable to talk with.
Here's hoping there are changes at FWW that restore Knots to its former self (on whatever software platform is needed).
Alan - planesaw
FWW vs PW
The biggest difference to me between FWW and Pop Wood is FWW has contributors, Pop Wood has personalities. Pop Wood just does a better job of having their writers appear to be average Joe's you would like to spend a day in the shop with. They write like they're in a conversation and the same writers are in every issue. Chris Schwarz is a personality, Megan Fitzpatrick is a personality, even Adam Cherubini is a personality (even though he hasn't written in awhile). They even do a very good job on their blogs persuading their personalities.
FWW has different contributors in every issue so you never get to know them on a personal level. The magazine feels more corporate while Pop Wood feels like a family run business. I'm sure that's not the case because F + W Media is a pretty big company but there's a saying in marketing; people don't buy products, they buy stories, and Pop Wood is doing a better job of telling their story.
Mike,
VERY INTERESTING IDEAS on FWW vs POPWOOD. But I have thought further about them, and I wonder. FWW has been rightfully criticized as having a very limited set of contributors who just keep showing up again and again. Are you telling me that Becksvoort and Garrett Hack and Jeff Jewett and Gary Rogowski etc etc etc aren't "personalities"???? I think they are. Not that that is all bad. They are also pretty fair woodworkers as is someone like Glen Huey. Of all of these personalities, who is the "Best" woodworker? My money would be put on Huey.
Cherubini is in a class by himself. He thinks he is a historian but a historian must attempt to be fair and to but his ideas to an acid test. Adam seems to believe that if he can do something in his shop while wearing loose clothing, that is the way it was done "back in the day."
SO is Schwartz a personality? Absolutely. But is he a woodworker? Well, he doesn't make and sell furniture for a living, but he seems to be genuinely interested in woodworking, and in digging into every corner of woodworking, looking for interesting twists. I enjoy reading his stuff, because he makes me think. He is tireless. I don't know how he keeps coming up with interesting things to try out. I don't read Schwartz to become a better woodworker, even though I do learn from him. I read him because I really enjoy his approach to woodworking and to life.
I made a list of suggestions to FWW about a year ago. One was: do something surprising in every issue. FWW does an adequate job of coming up with workmanlike articles most of the time. But in the early days, they had articles that were at the outer edges of woodworking, and that made them interesting. Now they seem to focus on keeping the same group of writers coming back again and again. Who was it? Was it Hack who came up with the article on which woods go together well and which do not. I read it and disagreed with almost everything in it. Lately I have seen that others have felt the same way. One mistake doesn't make a disaster. FWW woodworking is not a disaster. But it is getting pretty staid and predictable. It doesn't seem to take chances. It has Shootouts between a hand tool and a power tool. EGAD. Woodworking is not about hand vs power tools. They were just trying to do something interesting. However when I look at interesting stuff, I think of the Schwartz's shootout among the makers of expensive infill planes. THAT IS TOUCHY TERRITORY, and Schwartz navigated it very well. I loved it.
So I don't think it is Personalities vs Non Personalities. To me it is more like a pro football team. Once in a while you find a quarterback who can take you to the superbowl. POPWOOD has Schwartz. FWW doesn't have such a star quarterback. I sense that everyone at FWW really cares about woodworking, but I don't see PASSION.or the INQUISITIVENESS of Chris Shwartz anywhere in FWW. I get the sense that FWW tries to be safe, and do safe articles using safe authors. I'd like to see them be far less safe. Don't "TEACH" me. Instead, make me think. cause me to get excited. MAKE MY BLOOD FLOW. Take chances! Do articles about beautiful guns, and wood boats, and carving done by primitive peoples. Say things that I think I am going to disagree with, and present interesting info. When Schwartz did the handplane shootout, they took a photo of the "personalities" who were there. I can't imaging that group getting together for any undertaking that FWW does. Check it out.
I am NOT against FWW. I am a longtime subscriber to the mag and to Knots. I am disappointed. I don't my words to make them angry. I want my words, and the words of so many others here to SHAKE THEM UP, and bring in new leadership, and make things more interesting. I WANT THEM TO DO BETTER. I WANT KNOTS TO BE MORE LIKE IT WAS in terms of excitement and number of participants. I want them to fix things. I just hope that it is not too late.
I did enjoy your post. You can see that it made me think. Thanks for the opportunity. Have fun.
Mel
PS NOTHING GREAT WAS EVER DONE WITHOUT PASSION. I see the passion in POPWOOD. I don't see the passion in FWW. Passion and personalities are two different things, except that Chris is a passionate personality. Ha ha ha
There's no question that the talent in FWW is far greater than in PW. Seems to me that FWW hires woodworkers to write. PW hires writers to do woodworking. If I'm not mistaken, I believe both Chris and Megan had jobs in writing before working for F+W. So someone with the experience of working in the woodworking industry for twenty years is going to have far greater knowledge than someone who comes off the street green.
The guys you mentioned, Garrett, Hack, Rogowski, etc.. to me aren't really personalities because I really don't know anything about them other than the articles they write. They don't share any personal info about themselves in the Blogs so as a reader, I don't connect with them as I do with Chris or others at Pop Wood. Maybe they do, but I haven't seen it. When Chris goes out of town to do a lecture, he'll make a post about it in his blog and sometimes Megan will chime in on the situation. I guess you can describe it like social networking where everyone knows what's going on with everyone else. That can be good or it can be bad, depends on your situation.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think PW is a better mag than FWW. For one, some of the projects they make are horrible. I've never seen a project in that mag and said "I gotta make that". And, FWW's website is far superior than PW's with the amount of info on it. I just think PW does a better job connecting with the reader through their blogs and writings.
Mike,
The thing that makes the world interesting is that two people can look at the same thing and not see the same thing. Democrats and Republicans both want a better US, they just see things a bit differently.
When I read Chris or Megan, I feel as though I am exploring and learning alongside them. When I read Becksvoort or Jewett, I get the feeling there is a teacher up in front of the room giving a lecture to a group of students. Chris and Megan are not woodworkers in the sense of Glenn Huey who made his living at it for a long while. They seem to delight in the exploration process. When I read the articles of the FWW group of EXCELLENT woodworkers, I get the feeling it is a bit of a dry lecture by a person who has been doing it for a long time. Teachers seem to me to be people who no longer see themselves as learners. They are finished with that. I'd live to see an article by Jewett where he tries out some new stuff or tries to blow holes in old practices which may not be the best way. I'd love to see them look like they are exploring, rather than being didactic.
I have always enjoyed learning things from others who have just learned it more than from someone who has been doing it for forty years. Let me tell you why. I got a BS and and MS in Mathematics, most of which was "pure mathematics" rather than engineering math. We did a lot of proofs of theorems. If you look at an interesting theorem, and read the first proof that was published about it, it seems intuitive, but long After years of further research, folks come up with proofs of the same theorem which are much shorter, MORE "ELEGANT", but not very intuitive. THere seems to be excitement in the development of the first 'intuitive" proof, rather than the pomp one sees in the short elegant solutions.
I hope I didn't go to far afield. I like to learn from the pros. I often ask a question of a pro, but not until after I research the topic myself. I don't want to waste their time.
BUT you may have hit the nail on the head - not being "professional woodworkers" may be the greatest asset that Chris and Megan have in writing for other wannabee woodworkers.
Dont get me wrong. Not all professional woodworkers lack the enthusiasm that I see in Chris. Larry Williams really gets excited about woodworking issues, and he never seems to stop learning. He has the enthusiasm of a student of woodworking, which I think he feels that he is. That makes him one of my favorites here on Knots.
Also, enthusiasm is not sufficient to make one an interesting writer. For example, no one in the universe has more enthusiasm than than Adam. However he is too self centered and argumentative for my taste. He seems to be more enthusiastic about arguing his points than about exploring ideas.
Enough for now -- probably too much -- but I have never thought much about the points you brought up. Why do I enjoy reading Chris Schwartz? Now I have thought about it, as a result of your posts. I think that I better understand that I like to read the writing of woodworkers who are enthusiastic about exploring and learning, than woodworkers who like to do didactic instruction. It is not that one is better than the other. They are different.
A good example of a professional woodworker who is always enthusiastic about learning more about woodwork is Ray Pine. My guess is that no one reads more than he does, and he continues his voracious quest for learning well into his career. When I read Chris's investigations, I sense the same thing. When I read the more didactic articles of FWW, I don't get the feeling that as a result of the work that went into the article, the author is reporting on stuff he has learned, so much as reporting on stuff he has done for forty years.
Enjoy,
Mel
I guess
It is too frustrating to enjoy.
Besides having to type to login, the tab lights up the comment box, but when I start typing, nothing happens. The worse infuriating thing for me though, was typing several paragraphs of information, hopefully useful to someone needing advice. Then have that disappear when going to find a link to add.
Well, I thought the problem with this site, was that it was advancing, and I just wasn't keeping up, but judging from the remarks, plenty of others are as well.
Well, I did enjoy this site for a while. Fare Well,,,,,,, old friends.. K
Let's move it over the The Burl on Delphi Forums - site is hosted by our old buddy Mike Flaim ("mvflaim"). Forum software will be familiar to you all...
Politics ??
Flip flop, flip flop. I'm flipping for the most part.
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