This may be a very basic question but…
It seems recently every time I have to stain pine by hand and not by spraying, the stain is immediately soaked into the wood and it is near impossible to get the a completely even finish.
If a drop of stain hits the wood the place were it drops will almost always leave a spot even after staining over it with a rag, using a rag completely soaked in stain does not seem to help. I can not seem to keep the finish wet enough to wipe off later.
When its sprayed I can get a slightly more even coat but it still flash dries.
Any advice on staining pine would be greatly appreciated.
Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, Professionals build the Titanic.
Replies
Pine is one of those "blotchy" woods -- along with alder, birch and cherry. I just finished my first Alder piece, and used Minwax Gel Stain (would have preferred to use Bartley's but didn't plan ahead to order it).
From what I've read, even using a gel stain, you can have problems with any of these woods. The way to really up your odds of an even stain is to apply a wash-coat of shellac (1# or 1.5# cut) before applying the stain. When I did my alder piece, I first did 4 test samples:
Then, once I'd decided to go with the non-washcoated 320 (they were darkest, which was what I needed, and plenty even), I did another sample board with 1 coat of stain on one side and two coats on the other.
That's my .02 -- Actually, one of the mags this month has an article on finishing pine, it's out in the car. I'll go take a look and see if it's any good.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 6/6/2003 2:06:54 AM ET by forestgirl
Ok, got the article. It is in this month's American Woodworker, and is focused on producing the "antique pine" look, using a water-based conditioner, followed by 2 coats of water-soluble dye, then 2 coats of shellac, then glaze and a topcoat.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 6/6/2003 2:11:42 AM ET by forestgirl
I picked up the mag today, thanks for your advice.Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, Professionals build the Titanic.
Has anyone mentioned "Great Wood Finishes" by Jeff Jewitt. Excellent info in there, and a good explanation of blotching (splotching) causes and cures. He also provides 3 alternatives for staining and finishing cherry, another blotch-prone wood, the principles of which would be transferable I'd think.
His web site's a great source of info. Have you been there? --http://www.homesteadfinishing.com
Have fun and good luck!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Forestgirl,
The book has been recommended to me, probably going to order it one of these days :)
Thanks NeilNever be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, Professionals build the Titanic.
You need to be more specific with your question, CAG. What is the colouring medium--a stain or a dye-- brand name, if available?
What routine are you following exactly? And what type of pine, and how did you prepare the surface prior to attempting to colour it? I know already that you ragged it on, and you've tried spraying the stuff with less than optimal success, but I don't know if you are using a water based, spirit based, or an oil based product, for instance-- Anything that flashes off as fast as you say suggests spirit/alcohol based. What steps did you take to minimise blotching in the first place, if any? Slainte.
Website The poster formerly known as Sgian Dubh
Richard,
Stains are usually color matches from porter, Sherman Williams, or benny Moore, used to match existing stain on trim and doors etc. In a rare instance and a pinch it might be minwax
Base, casing, crown, any sort of trim really, gets stained straight from the lumber yard, if it is marked or burned from milling those areas will be sanded out, everything it tack clothed then stained.
Other things made out of pine 1x are sanded to 150, tacked, and stained.
what steps should I be doing to prepare the stain.Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, Professionals build the Titanic.
What bugged me in your first post, not your fault-- CAG was the mention of odd spots that appeared in your staining/dying process. That shouldn't really happen if you follow certain procedures. Pine is not the easiest stuff in the world to colour, and there are various approaches.
I'll be honest and admit that colouring wood is one of my weakest subjects within the pantheon of woodworking topics Anyway, my guess, wrong as it might be is that you need to prepare the wood, rather than adjust the stain-- but even that is debatable-- 150 grit sounds about right.
If memory serves me correctly, you are an architect, and your quest might be to find a reliable process for your clients. The best way I can think of producing a reliable finish colour and consistency of colour is to avoid applying the colouring agent directly to the wood.
A barrier coat is perhaps called for, and the barrier coat is often a weak mixture of polish. A typical weak mixture is thinned out de-waxed shellac, but it might be pre-catalysed lacquer, etc.. Another way of creating a barrier is to use the solvent of the dye or stain immediately prior to applying the colouring agent-- this rather chokes the grain preventing ready absorption of the dye/stain.
One trick you can use to help is to thin out the stain with its solvent-- I think I'd be right in saying that all those colouring agents you mentioned are dissolved in petrolem spirits, i.e., mineral spirits. Apply a coat of thinned out stuff, and add another coat to build up the colour. Slainte.Website The poster formerly known as Sgian Dubh
Richard,
Architect student who probably will not practice architecture, I work for a remodeling company part time when school is in, and full time otherwise. I am looking because when ever I stain pine doors, trim, etc. It flashes.
I understand what you mean by things that shouldn't happen when staining, but the occasional drop of stain is at times unavoidable. It doesn't mater if I rag it on with one pass across a piece of base or if it is sprayed on, I still don't like the results I have been getting.
I'll try the thinned down stain and also a applying the solvent to the wood first on some scraps and see what the results are, thanks
Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, Professionals build the Titanic.
Edited 6/7/2003 5:08:32 PM ET by CAG
CAG
I am certainly not a finishing expert, but I work with a lot of pine here in Ga. and eliminated the drip stain problem on pine you're having by going to gel-stain. The gel does not penetrate deeply into the pores as the much thinner liquid. It just sets on top much more evenly. I have found it a great aid with blotch-prone woods.
Just a thought...
sarge..jt
Sarge,
Can you get gel-stained color matched?
Thanks NeilNever be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, Professionals build the Titanic.
CAG
I don't think so. I went back and read your description of what you're actually doing. I see your delima with having to match to existing. That's a tough situation for anybody.
I suppose all you can do is wash-coat or lay thin shellac for a try. You don't have much choice since the original was done in a certain brand before you arrived on the scene. I'm just glad it's not me faced with that.
If you do come up with something that works relatively well, please post it here as I would sure like to know a solution to this one.
Good luck...
sarge..jt
Sarge, dontcha think it would be possible to mix different "colors" of gel stains to customize? Just a thought. Or add dye or pigment (depending on the composition of the gel stain) to adjust? Jeff would know, LOL! BTW, check your email --- someone's looking for you! Tooldoc too.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Intermixing stains is always an option. Another option would be to either prestain (ie. dye stain) or use a toner on top of the stain to supply the missing colors/tones. Having access to spray equipment makes either option much easier to do, especially with a blotch-prone wood.
In my job I frequently end up doing some sort of a multi-step color process because I rarily have the luxery of generating the initial color sample. Most of the time I'm forced to match another contractors sample and that severely limits my options. Normally what I do is to try to find something off-the-shelf that will get me as close as possible. Then I'll tackle finding something that will supply the missing colors/tones.
I've never worked with gel stains. But... from what I've read here in Knots, I wonder if one could layer two different gels stains. IOW, stain with one gel stain (perhaps a light color), let it dry and then come back with another, different color of gel stain to supply the other colors needed to match the control sample.
Regards,
Kevin
Jamie
Yep, you can add pigment. His problem is he's got to match existing and does this commercially I assume. To get the right mixture day after day on a consistent basis would be too time consuming, IMO.
Those guys at SW, etc. have a computer and it just takes seconds. I think the wash-coat is the only sensible answer in this case. You can make it easily with boiled linseed oil and mineral spirits.
Have a good one...
sarge..jt
What type of stain you useing bro? you may need to add a conditioner or spray it with a coat of shellac. You can tint shellac as well. Check out Jewtitts book "Great wood finishes" its a great book that even I can understand
Darkworks: No Guns No Butter squilla and the bling bling.
Staining Pine is what I do. The wood needs to be conditioned first. I use to buy conditioner (minwax and Behr) until I read the aforementioned Jewitt book. Now I make my own: 1 part boiled linseed oil to 6-7 parts thinner/mineral spirits. I flood the surface, go back in 10 min. add more to the dried up areas, wipe off 10 min. later. Watch those rags they blow up real good if you don't dispose of them properly. Two hours later I apply the stain of choice. I use Watco medium danish oil mixed with a bit of minwax puritan pine for the first coat. I usually add Dark walnut (Danish oil) to the mix and a bit of poly to subsequent coats.
When you apply the first coat of stain you need to start at one end and go the full length of the board (don't apply in a cross-grain fashion the overlap will show). After the first coat is applied the additional coats are not finicky what so ever.
p.s. I would show you a sample if I could figure out how to add an attachment to this message... anyone?
N.E.T.
Ironic, I just got done explaining to someone how to post a pic
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=31379.32
You can skip the copy to desktop part if you know where to find the file, I was trying to keep it simple.
Does the conditioner you apply do anything in terms of discoloring or changing the color of the stain?
Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, Professionals build the Titanic.
Edited 6/6/2003 5:22:21 PM ET by CAG
Thanks I hadn't scrolled down far enough to see the attachment section.
The conditioner does not change the colour to my knowledge, however it keeps the stain from absorbing deep into the wood which results in a 'watered down' look initially. Conditioner essentially levels the playing field of stain penetration thereby eliminating blotching. Subsequent coats give greater richness to the finish especially the second coat.
The first coat is the most critical it terms of application. You need to start at the end of the board and go the full length without stopping. Do not apply the stain in a cross-grain fashion for the overlap will show in a very obvious manner.
Subsequent coats are far less finicky and may be applied anyway you like. The second coat will give you a good indication of expected colouration however you can tweek the tone a bit with subsequent coats. For instance if you want it darker add dark walnut to the mix. I find gradually darking the stain gives the best overall colouration.
I wait at least 24 hours between coats and usually do about 4 coats.
Here is one sample of my work--the ubiquitous entertainment centre.
p.s. for those of you detecting spelling errors I'm Canadian eh!
Use a stain controller. You can find it at any home center. Pick a brand, they all do the same.
Dear CAG,
If one uses oil stain in pine, most blotching can be avoided by first coating the wood with turpentine using a brush, and let it soak in for a few minutes, till it is absorved, then stain.
Areas that get a little blotching can be fixed with the cabinet scraper and then re-stain. Toning the lacquer and glazing helps too, so as not to put very dark stain initially. That is for n.c. laquer applied with air gun.
Once the slightest coat of n.c. sealer goes over the stain, no blotching can take place.
Scraping the pine before stain, in areas where blotching is suspected also can prevent blotching. Or scrape all of the pine prior to stain will help too. Then still apply turpentine before the oil-stain.
Let the stain dry and absorve overnight before sealing, also. Otherwise the slightest sanding may show white pine.
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