Replies

1. 
   dedge | Nov 22, 2004 05:27pm | #1

   Try Sherwin Williams Conversion Varnish Thin With Zylene Add Hardner Its Lacquer Base I Thin About 25% Works Great

1. 
   highfigh | Nov 22, 2004 05:52pm | #2

   What was the temperature of the air and wood when you sprayed the lacquer? It won't flow well if it's cold and the air from the sprayer being heated only helps atomization, not flow. S-W better be good product, considering what they charge for it. I have seen trim on high dollar houses painted (sprayed) with S-W catalyzed paint. It looked spectacular! I have wanted to try their lacquer for a while now, just don't have a project for it yet. Did you use a viscosity cup to check it before you sprayed? You could call S-W about any questions you have. Not the one near me(not very helpful when it comes to technical questions), but the company has a technical staff for this.
   "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."

1. 
   mudman | Nov 23, 2004 08:18am | #5

   Highfigh,

   Thanks for the reply. I did not use a viscosity cup. I wish I would have just out of curiosity, but I am lazy that way. Ive mixed enough finish to get a pretty good feel for how thick I can spray with my set up. This was thinner than what I mix oil enamels or latex, and about the same as I mix Shellac. It is interesting what you said about the cost because I thought $24 for a gallon was cheep. We may not be talking about the same product though. This is a Nitrocellouse Lacquer.

   Mikeplease excuse my spelling.

2. 
   mudman | Nov 23, 2004 08:23am | #6

   I think I will try that, but I don't think that I quite understand you. Do you mean the Conversion finish uses lacquer base hardner and mix Zylene with that? Can you post that again. I would like to try a conversion finish as well. What are the differences between it and Lacquer of Shellac?

   Thank you for the help,

   Mikeplease excuse my spelling.

1. 
   dedge | Nov 23, 2004 05:04pm | #7

   I Have Used This Finish For Many Years Most Of The Production Cabinet Shops In This Area use it Sherwin Williams Sells Conversion Varnish In 5 Gal. Bucket try This Link It Should Tell You What You Want To Know The Product # Is v84f82 http://www.sherlink.com/sher-link/ImgServ?id=datapages/shwdwwconvar_f24_e.pdf

1. 
   mudman | Nov 23, 2004 09:17pm | #8

   Thank you Dedo,

   I need to read up on conversion finish in my books, but from the tech sheet it looks like a good finish for large pieces where shellac can be cost ineffective or where a more durable finish is needed. Can this stuff be leveled and buffed the way Shellac can? I am about to build a very nice dining table and want to get that quality of finish without the durability issues of shellac. And how much does it cost?

   Thanks again,

   Mikeplease excuse my spelling.

1. 
   dedge | Nov 24, 2004 05:04pm | #12

   I Have A Commercial Account At Sherwinn Williams & It Cost Me About $125 Per 5 Gal. $30 per 5 Gal. For Zylene $30 Per Gal. For Hardner The Hardner Last Through Many 5 Gallons Of Finish As You Only Use 3%
   I Have Sanded It Through The Grits To 2000 Then Waxed Its Very Nice
   The Only Problem, Not On Every Piece, Is A Haze In Different Spots I Have Posted Many Times But No One Has Come Up With A Answer I`ve Had This Hazing Problem With Poly Also When I Figure It Out It Will Be A Perfect Finish

2. 
   mudman | Nov 24, 2004 09:54pm | #13

   Thanks again,

   I've been reading up on conversion finishes. Sounds like a good thing for inexpensive pieces that need tough finishes. For example I made a set of jewelry display cases for a jewelry store. Those pieces needed a super tough finish, but aren't what I would call heirloom quality stuff. But I worry about the inability to repair and (reported) difficulty leveling and polishing. I alway discuss these pros and cons with clients; like the ease of repair of shellac vs. the toughness of waterbase or conversion finish. I always worry about selling a $3000 table that will cost $2000 to refinish if damaged. Whereas Shellac is super easy to seamlessly repair a small spot.

   Mikeplease excuse my spelling.

2. 
   notDusty | Nov 22, 2004 06:36pm | #3

                    mike ,

            Some lacquers tell you not to thin at all, I think the idea is you will create less VOC s in the air , while using more of the main product . I spray all my lacquer with an airless , and I thin 20% with lacquer thinner. I only add retarder when the temp gets hot in the summer months. I have never heard of adding that much retarder per batch. Did you use a self sealing lacquer ? I know some of SW products require a vinyl sealer , and that can be a touchy thing to use , more open drying time . Most lacquers I have used over the years have had the same basic characteristics and working properties. But typically some thinners vary , from fast or the hottest to medium and slow . As far as slow passes , I was taught to overlap each pass about half way. It may depend on the rate of flow your pump produces to detetmine the correct speed. Also the distance you hold your gun from the surface may be contributing to the coatings . Many furniture type factories use  heated types of lacquers . Remember a good finish is not built in a single pass , but a series of light passes with sanding in between coats .Don't try to rush a fine finish. It almost sounds from the way you described your coatings that you may have been too thick and too close or maybe just too slow of passes ?

                                   good    luck                     dusty

1. 
   mudman | Nov 23, 2004 08:10am | #4

   Dusty,

    I usually spray shellac or poly, I also use an airless for latex. I normaly keep about 8 to 12 inches away from the piece, but at that distance I got a lot of dry spray with this lacquer. And a normal pass didn't build up enough to flow out. I know that typically means the finish is too thick, but it was actually thinner than what I usually mix other finishes. If I sprayed normally it would literally dry in 30 seconds. So fast that my next pass (overlapped 50%) would not blend or flow into the previous one from 20 seconds before. I actually got the best results by spraying slow and building it up like that. That way it would stay wet untill the next pass came by. It was when spraying normaly that I had problems. Again the finish came out as perfect as a finish can straight out of the gun. I've just never had to work a finish like that. From what you say it must not be normal. This finish, its called Promar by Sherman Williams, is really formulated for finishing interior trim, not furniture. I suspect that is the main difference. But I really don't know as I've never used any other Lacquer. I chose this because of its low price.

   Mikeplease excuse my spelling.

3. 
   bsutton12 | Nov 23, 2004 10:31pm | #9

   A few points:

   1.  Retarder is basically a different blend of solvents that have a slower evaporation rate allowing flow out and minimizing blushing.  I suppose you could use too much.  I only use it in hot humid weather.

   2. I thin at about 50 - 50 as recommended by Behlens, which also is confirmed by viscosity cup.

   3. I don't have any experience with conversion varnish, but if not mistaken, it has hardeners and must be cleaned thoroughly from the gun after use.  Again, my undersanding is that conversion varnish "cures" and does not redesolve in thinner/solvent.  So if it drys in the gun, it will be difficult to remove.

   4. I haven't used S/W lacquer, but I am sure that it is not that mush different than other brands.  You probably should thin it more.

1. 
   mudman | Nov 24, 2004 07:36am | #10

   Hello BS U TTON 12,

   HE HE. I love trying to decifer handles, I suppose that it could stand for Bob or Bill Sutton the 12th. I wanted to thin it down about 40 percent but was afraid to. From what I read the difference between retarder and thinner is that the solvents for lacquer are not the same as what is used as a thinner. The actual solvent that puts the solids into solution are Ketones and Esters while the thinner is usually has fast evaporating hydrocarbons and xylene that by them selfs can't disolve the solids. Regular lacquer thinner has the thinners but little of the solvents so if the conditions are bad (heat and humidity) the lacquer will come out of solution before the thinner evaporates causing the blushing effect. Retarders have more of the actual lacquer solvents in them to slow how fast it dries to make sure the thinners have flashed off. If you add too much thinner to a fast drying lacquer it will blush unless you also add enough retarder.

   All this is from books that I have read but as with any of these things book learnin' only goes so far. Thanks for shareing your experience. Later I'll see what happens if I thin it untill is sprays the way my Shellac does.

   Thanks,

   Mikeplease excuse my spelling.

1. 
   CraigC | Nov 24, 2004 03:56pm | #11

   This also a good link:http://www.boomspeed.com/firstfinish/ViscosityAndWetMils.htmCheers,Craig