Replies

1. 
   xmike | Jan 17, 2009 09:32pm | #1

   Actually, almost any paint must be thinned in order to flow out properly - either brushed or sprayed. Thin it about 10% and see what happens on a prepped scrap (sanded, base coated). I think that that's about how far I had to take it before it would brush out properly. When you do your test, be sure to put one test board vertical so you don't thin it to the point that it runs down the board.

   The manufacturer must say "don't thin" in order to pass the VOIC (Volatile Organic and Inorganic Compounds) rules for California's and other states equivalent of the CAQMB (California Air Quality Management Board)

   
   

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   Edited 1/17/2009 1:51 pm ET by Mike_D

2. 
   dmdnk | Jan 17, 2009 10:06pm | #2

   Spraying in a finished house is, in my experience, is a hefty undertaking.  The room pretty much has to become a makeshift spray booth and EVERYTHING but what you are spraying must be masked.  I've made rooms into booths by making a cardboard door with furnace filtered holes cut in it for air intake.  A fitlered fan in the window for exhaust.  Papered the floors, tarped the walls, etc.

   For equipment, turbine would seem to be the best for portability, though I have no experience with them.  My setup is a Binks Mach 1SL HVLP (currently $335 on ebay) with a 50 oz pressure pot.  After a quick search, I see a similar pot- DeVilbiss 2qt plus hoses for around $240. http://www.sprayfinishingsupplies.com/products/KB_555_DeVilbiss_2_Qt_Aluminum_Cup-66-5.html

   I used a Craftsman portable 5hp compressor with a 30gal tank.  It has a tough time keeping up with the gun.  I spray several minutes then pause while the compressor catches up.  Keeping the compressor close is helpful.  Too much hose causes cfm drop.

   Before going this route- have you tried a good roller on the panels?

   David

3. 
   dmdnk | Jan 18, 2009 12:04am | #3

   Another choice- I used the setup in the last post for spraying tinted lacquer.  Alternatively,  I once borrowed a friend's paint sprayer to paint some garage doors with alkyd paint.  I was surprised at how well it worked.  No resevoir.  Just stick the suction wand in the can and spray away.  I don't think I even thinned the paint altough I probably ran it through a filter.  I put a coat on a 10' x 12' door in moments with pretty good results.

   The only downside I can recall is that it had a 50' fluid hose so I needed extra material for that. 

   You could probably rent one from a rental center or paint store for not much money.

   David

1. 
   agewon | Jan 18, 2009 06:44am | #4

    

   I can't tell you guys how happy I am to have people willing to help.  This is only my second post, and since I am a newbie I feel bad only asking, and not being able to help as much as I wish I could.<!----><!----><!---->

   Dmdnk,<!----><!---->

   I used one of those "tip the suction into the can" type sprayers in my old house and it was very fast working.  However, I would like something with a little more control and precision.<!----><!---->

   I should have prefaced this with my original post;  I currently have a Binks Model 7, and a Craftsman 25 gallon, 6HP, 10 CFM compressor.  <!----><!---->

   I am a complete newbie and really don’t even know how to use this gun, nor what air requirements it needs.  I actually bought a box store gun to do small projects for that exact reason.  Will this set-up be good enough?  Do I have enough air supply?  <!----><!---->

     Also, if the Binks will work, is it worth getting a pressure pot to give me more flexibility in spraying and capacity?  <!----><!---->

    

1. 
   dmdnk | Jan 18, 2009 07:52am | #5

   The Binks gun you have is probably fine for the job.  The key to a good finishing is like anything else having to do with woodworking- experimentation and practice- lots of both.  I've found that there's no exact formula that works well with any spray gun/ compressor setup.  You have to try it out and adjust the air and fluid until you get the results you want.  Experience makes the process easier.

   A suction cup is fine until you NEED more capacity.  Practice on every scap of wood you have before starting on your project.

   For your spray job, you'll almost certainly have to thin the paint.  A viscosity cup is good to have for this.  The one I use came from Highland Hardware (I think they may have changed their name but still use Highland?)  The cup came with a basic chart for thinning various materials.  That is your starting point.

   For suction guns and paint, I usually start with around 40lbs of air and the needle fully open, then close the needle until I get good atomization.  If I still get splatters, I increase the air pressure.

   Test it out and post with questions as they arise.  You can also email me at [email protected]

   Good Luck,

   david

    

1. 
   xmike | Jan 18, 2009 05:19pm | #6

   Two more things to consider. Unless you are just committed to spraying in the house, you might also consider using the small diameter smooth surfaced rollers to put your thinned paint on surfaces large enough to be considered "panels". These work fine, don't leave brush marks, and with properly thinned paint and a small amount of penetrol (oil) or flowtrol (water based), will level out looking very professional. Experiment and see if this does what you want.Spraying sounds (and is) very fast - however - masking and cleanup nullifies a lot of that advantage. Spraying in a booth is terrific. But spraying inside a room with essentially dead air space isn't. It does get paint all over every surface in the room that isn't masked. Every surface. It's hard to believe this until you have actually experienced it first hand. Even where you can't see it, you can feel the effects of overspray by running your hand over the unmasked surfaces and feel the gritty feel of paint where you don't want it. HVLP helps by reducing overspray, but it in no way eliminates it. So while the actual spraying process is relatively fast, the time that you spend covering / masking every other surface in the room that you don't want that particular paint on takes a lot of time and material, followed by very through and immediate cleanup of the spray equipment should you want to use it again in the future.This is the main reason that I finally took the time to re-learn the art of doing finish painting with a brush and fine surfaced roller - for me, it's actually faster overall.Mike D

1. 
   dmdnk | Jan 18, 2009 08:30pm | #9

   Yes Mike,

   I agree. See my post near the top of the thread. BTW...Did you mean to direct your post to me or Agewon?

2. 
   xmike | Jan 18, 2009 10:48pm | #11

   Agewon, actually. Sometimes I get so caught up in the profundity of my proclamations that I just hit the "Post" button. Mike D

3. 
   agewon | Jan 19, 2009 04:58am | #12

   Hastings

       You hit the nail on the head.  I an definately the type of person who enjoys learning and developing a technique, but painting is one of those things that eludes me.  The reason i want to spray is;

              1. I have very little time available to do actual work as it is. Weekends and late nights are the only time I have.

              2.  My living room alone is 26' X 15', and will eventually have 240 sq/ft of wainscoting.  I think that using my time to master the spraying would benefit moreso than brushing.

              However, i do agree that my brushing technique is flawed, and i should take time in the future to correct that.  Does anyone own the Earlex 5000? 

2. 
   kreuzie | Jan 19, 2009 05:56am | #13

   How much wainscot will you be doing? Is there any way you can prefit the wainscot, then take it down to spray it (horizontally) offsite? This would eliminate overspray in the room and runs from spraying a vertical surface.

   I've sprayed a bunch of Satin Impervo. Just thin about 10%, or whatever will work for your gun. The Binks should be fine without a pressure pot...a quart cup of thinned paint goes a long way, especially if you use a good primer (tinted close to the final color).

   kreuzie

1. 
   agewon | Jan 19, 2009 07:21am | #14

   The room is pretty large and i plan to work in this order

   1. install wainscot.

   2. allow 1-3 weeks for proper acclimation to the environment (my garage is not climate controlled)

   3. mask room then spray.

   I am in the process of making a negative air unit from an old air handler so spraying indoors in not a concern.  But a perfect finish is.  Do you think its worth investing in a turbine?  With the setup i currently have, i need to invest in better filtration which I figure will run me about 100$ closing the gap on an Earlex unit.  Like I have said before, the scope of my project justifies the cost of a turbine. 

    

   Edited 1/18/2009 11:22 pm ET by agewon

1. 
   bigfootnampa | Jan 19, 2009 10:34am | #15

   I have to laugh I am sorry but:

   "Like I have said before, the scope of my project justifies the cost of a turbine."

   the scope of your project is TINY!   A pro would roll and tip off four coats of water base on that in an afternoon!  Or have it done, with a brush only, in an easy going short day.  Of course you have to stretch out the timeline with alkyd to allow for more drying time between coats... but the working time stays the same.

   It is not just your brushing skills that need the practice.  You need to  learn how to manipulate the paint too.  As I am trying to teach you the timeline for this learning curve is vastly shorter for brushwork than for spray equipment.  Spraying is VERY sensitive to viscosity/equipment setup/weather/material characteristics/etcetera... it takes years to become very skilled at the fine adjustments required.  even recognizing where the problems may lie is quite a skill/experience sensitive achievement.

   Buy your turbine if you must but realize that you'll need years of practice to achieve:"a perfect finish" with spray equipment.  You should be able to achieve an "excellent" job via brushing within a few days, and I think that that is the best you can hope for in the short term.  If your finish really must be "a perfect finish" then you had better hire yourself a top level professional (which would still be cheaper than a "good" turbine setup).

    

2. 
   kreuzie | Jan 19, 2009 09:24pm | #17

   I'm not that familiar with turbine systems, except that you need a good one, which will be expensive, and they are loud and have large, short, bulky hoses.

   It would seem to boil down to what you want to do after you're finished with this project. Are you going to continue to spray finishes?

   My personal preference is a compressor-driven gun. I have a DeVilbiss CVi suction feed, and love it. It's convertible from HVLP to their new TransTech spray; it lays down a wonderful finish, and the pressure at the gun is only about 20 psi.

   Plus the compressor which drives it is capable of doing many, many more things.

   A turbine can do only one thing.

   If this will be your only spray project and you're willing to invest a bunch of money in a turbine, then you might consider hiring a professional to spray your wainscot.

   kreuzie

3. 
   agewon | Jan 20, 2009 03:51am | #18

   By the scope of my project, I meant not only the wainscot in the living room, but also 15 passage doors, 3 sets of 5' bi-folds, 2 mantels, and additional wainscot in the Dining room, foyer, and 3 bathrooms.  And with all due respect, I wouldn't hire a "professional" that could brush four coats on the 240 sq/ft wainscot in a day.<!----><!----><!---->

     Thank you very much to all of you.  I have gained lots of good advice, and I have decided on a turbine for now.  I will continue my research and hopefully be able to post results soon.  <!----><!---->

                                                                                   <!----><!---->

    

4. 
   Hastings | Jan 18, 2009 05:21pm | #7

   Age:

   I spray everything! I like the finish that it leaves and the speed of coverage.

   As I spray outside (mostly) I like quick drying finishes such as lacquers and automobile paints. I used CAB acrylic for my bathroom, though most was pre-finished, though I did a little touch up in situ.

   I would invest my money in a good gun. I started with a middling gun at about $130 but our local auto-paint supplier suggested an Iwata, it was like night and day. I now have an Iwata LVLP gun LPH440 and a smaller Iwata for touch up and smaller surfaces like face frames. There is a lot more engineering than meets the eye and one of the ingredients to a good finish is the atomization of the material. There are other good guns out there - but I just love my Iwatas!

   I use a 30 gal Kobalt compressor from Lowes. It's a bit light in the cubic feet per minute department, for the larger gun I find that it recycles as I set up the parts to be finished.

   I don't think you will find many professionals using turbine systems. The Earlex turbine has received some good reviews - see the Wood Whisperer for a demo and review.

   Finally, an LVLP gun will limit overspray and I have found masking to be quite easy as a result.

   And really finally, what will you do with your spray equipment once the remodel is finished? This will have a bearing on what you want to invest. The Earlex would look pretty good if this was it.

   Hastings

1. 
   bigfootnampa | Jan 18, 2009 08:15pm | #8

   Actually a lot of pros do use turbines but they have good ones and know how to make them work.  I have an Accuspray unit that will work wonderfully but it would be much easier for a beginner to learn to brush and roll properly... cheaper too.  Brush marks are a sign of poor technique (except when they are deliberate).  Skillful rolling/brushing is actually NOT common but easier to learn than good spraying skills.  Operator skills are paramount with any equipment... there are professionals who regularly use very cheap spray guns as semi-disposables and do nice work with them. 

   I have read the results of pretty extensive tests with varied equipment and varied operator skill levels.  The most striking revelations that from these test results were that the operator skill levels transcended the variations in equipment so that the experts acheived very good results with ANY setup!  Even such issues as overspray were much less varied between the various equipment setups when the experts were operating them.

   So to the OP I say: do not look to your equipment as a primary cure for your finshing problems.  Skill and practice are more important keys to successful improvement.

   ANY kind of (liquid) finish can be applied beautifully with brushes alone so start there.  For an alkyd you'll want a nice bleached bristle brush (try Purdy) because the bleaching thins the bristles and makes the  tips finer and softer.  Practice on scrap wood with thinning and technique until you start getting happy results.  Standard technique is to brush on quickly and tip off very gently... this technique is standard because it does work very well... so master it. 

   Large areas require zoned application techniques and/or retardant-thinning strategies.  Sometimes just many very thin coats works well.  Practice is essential.

1. 
   Hastings | Jan 18, 2009 10:03pm | #10

   bigfoot:I agree with you. It is always amazing what practiced experts can achieve in any field requiring skill.However, there are pieces of equipment that will allow relative beginners to get quality results without the investment of time in acquiring the requisite skills. Time is typically the scarce resource for those engaged in full time careers.So while your advice to the OP is sound, it doesn't take into account the time he has available to complete this task and whether it is practical for him to develop techniques with brush and roller. If, on the other hand, we are talking about a day of intense practice, then it would be better for him to that rather than acquire a whole lot of expensive equipment.Just curious, but can you apply lacquer with brush or roller and get good results? I had understood that spraying was the recommended method with these types of finish.Hastings

1. 
   bigfootnampa | Jan 19, 2009 10:49am | #16

   Just curious, but can you apply lacquer with brush or roller and get good results? I had understood that spraying was the recommended method with these types of finish.

   Of course it can be done.  Though lacquer would be a poor choice if brushing is the preferred method of application.  Personally I would favor other finishes in ANY case.  I have used lacquers in the past but I was not happy with their performance and am unlikely to ever use them again (they looked great at first... then people started living around them and they went to _ _ ll in a hurry).  I do currently use lots of water base finish which dries nearly as fast as lacquer and it takes some practice but has some advantages as well as some drawbacks.  Overall I deem it very worthwhile (because, unlike the lacquers, these give many years of excellent service in heavy use).