First, thank all of you who responded to my thread “Stickley Finishes.” Now my question is whether to hand finish or spray. The reason I’m looking at spraying is because the three step finishing process of a water based dye stain, then pigment stain (to “pop” the ray fleck), and finally either shellac or laquer.
I know I need to spray laqure but after reading about the application of the dye stain being sloshing it on and then quickly wiping it off – I don’t know if its possible with the scope and geometric complexity of the bed eg. 92 slatsl, ledger boards, reveals etc… I just thought spraying my be a better option.
Can you spray dye stain and pigment stain? Do you still have to wipe excess or is it based on how well you spray?
I may be able to borrow a “Turbineair” as I’ve heard thats the hot tip. Does anyone have any experience with the new Woodcraft $100 complete spay kit – I think its HVLP. Or would anyone suggest taking it to a finishing company (my least attractive option since this is my project and that would turn it into partly my project.) Any and all advise appreciated. I am in the Milwaukee WI area so I have plenty of retail options for purchasing a spray system but I am on a tight buget with QS WO @ $4.80/BF.
Replies
First, why bother staining, finishing 92 slats?
Second, since you seem to have a severely curtailed budget, just apply by hand your dye stain and pigment stain, and buy spray cans of lacquer.
It's not worth it to go "low budget" for these one-time use tools.
I guess I'm not sure what you mean by "why finish 92 slats." They have to be finished the same as the rest of the bed unless I'm not understanding you correctly.
The reason I am thinking it would be better to spray is that the applications of the differents dyes and stains requires putting it on and wiping it off with consistensy. I am not sure how feasible that is in light of all of the faces and facets of the bed. I also read some posts here and on woodweb that suggested that the porter cable and other like products had acceptable performance for someone other than a production cabinet shop.
Your thoughts?
Slats are under a mattress and never seen, so why bother, is my point.
Even if you spray on the dye/pigment you'll need to wipe it off by hand because it builds up on the surface and sooner later will not able to be absorbed anymore. Consistency of appearance is not hard to achieve by hand. Different pieces of wood will look similar but not exactly the same, depending on each's density,porosity, etc.
I have no experience with pc spray equipment so I cannot recommend or not recommend it. If this is as suggested a one time project, buying spray cans is the way to go. If not, buy a good system; there are many to choose from, but the low cost solution is usually not the one.
As always, practice for the finished appearance on scrap first.
This is just a guess, but when I see the words "Stickley" and "Slats" in the same sentence I'm thinking headboard and footboard.
I'm in agreement with Jackplane - if this is a one-timer, go with the cans. With a little care you can get a relatively good finish. In further agreement, if you're planing on doing a lot more of this kind of thin, do not buy any of the small hobbyist single stage units. You will be dissatisfied in the long run.Regard it as just as desirable to build a chicken house as to build a cathedral. Frank Lloyd Wright
Thank you both. Rennie you win the prize for deductive reasoning. By "slats" I do mean the many stiles in the headboard and footboard. Anyway 90 some slats for boxspring support is a little overkill.
When you/(or Jackplane) say spraycan do you literally mean laquer in a can? I've never heard of it. I once tried a waterbase poly in a can with poor results. How many cans would it take for a King size?
What do recommend for spray equipment for someone you does 3-6 projects a year? I've never used laquer but I like its properties so it would need to be capable of spraying that as well as stain and poyurathane. HVLP or conversion? I do not have a compressor.
I hate to reiterate but the FWW article I read concerning the finishing procedure I'm am planing on using said it was necessary to wipe off the excess quickly. Is it possible to do this around all the slats etc.. and maintain color consistency. I say this because the first step in the process is a dye stain which is supposed to bring all the disparate pieces to roughly the same color. Also I didn't think it was advisable to apply laquer by hand.
Lastly, I spoke to a guy and also read that if you build up light spray coats of dye and stain that it is uneccessary to wipe off excess. Is this incorrect. Sorry for my naitivity. It has never been my forte. Neither has spelling.
You can actually buy Deft (sp?) spray lacquer in a spray can at HD. Several others are available through woodworking suppliers. I can't claim to have had any experience with them as the smaller projects I've done were finished with spray poly.
I refinished 22 12' long church pews earlier this year and facing that task decided to buy a good HVLP turbine system. I have the Fuji Q4 and I'm very pleased. I used Compliant Spray Systems water borne sealer and poly. I've heard that the Fuji gun may not be top notch, but it worked well for me.Regard it as just as desirable to build a chicken house as to build a cathedral. Frank Lloyd Wright
I have a good amount of experience with everything you ask about here, except I have not made the bed project. By the way, $4.80 bf for highly figured QS white oak is not a bad price. Some yards here in Chicago are getting nearly twice that amount.
For your finish sequence, just wipe on the dye with a sponge, assuming you are using water based dye. I don't think spraying does as well and wastes material. Before the dye step, wipe the entire piece with plain water in a sponge to raise the grain. Sand off the fuzz after it has dried. Then apply your dye and let dry overnight. Next, use spray can Bulls Eye shellac as a sealer. Third, wipe on gel stain, which is going to fill the pores and give the piece a richer, more even color. Lastly, you can use spray cans of lacquer for the top coat; although I personally would avoid Deft. Behlen has very good spray lacquer in several sheens. It has a very strong odor. I used the new satin sheen spray lacquer from Minwax last night and liked it, although it does not build nearly as quickly as the Behlen's. It also is lower odor. As an optional touch I rub out the lacquer on the major surfaces with 3M pads. Do not rub any edges, or you will be refinishing! On case pieces I usually apply a high quality wax with the abrasive pads and buff out with a towel. You generally should not have a gloss sheen on Arts & crafts pieces, so don't strive for that.
I use my HVLP gun and Behlen lacquer for bigger pieces, but cans of good quality spray material are fine for more limited use, and are much less trouble. If you like validation, my pieces sell readily at one of the best Arts & Crafts furniture dealers in the country and have appeared in American Bungalow magazine.
Thanks guys. Maybe I will put the dye and stain on by hand and if its in the budget I will buy a sprayer (Turbinaire?) for the laquer.
I guess I just wanted to use laquer b/c thats what Stickley uses. What are the pros and cons b/w using laquer vs. Polyurathane?
So to make sure I understand correctly, First, I wet the wood to raise the grain and then sand off the fur with say a 220 grit. Then I put the dye on with a sponge and let dry overnight. Am I to assume that there will be runs and excess to wipe off or do you wring out the sponge and apply it as if you were cleaning it.
Second, I use an oil based wipe on stain (gel?) which sounds good to me, working it in and wiping off the excess. I'm under the impression that this step "pops" the ray flecking b/c it fills the pours of the wood but not the ray fleck. This is important to me to get the most striking figure I can.
Third, use a wipe on poly or laquer of 5 or 6 coats. Sanding or burnishing inbetween? Sorry I've never used laquer before. Also I've heard of "building the depth" with a high gloss finish and then making the top coat a satin to keep with the Arts and Crafts finish. Does this work?
Last. if anyone has color combos for the dye and stain to get a nice brown but not quite as dark as the dark stickley finish it might save me a few samples. Thanks again to everyone for all the advice and please keep it coming. For a picture of the bed go to http://www.stickley.com/gallery/details.cfm?id=1263&c=36&cat1=89&view=all&view=complex . You can see that it has many more ledgers and reveals than he original "spindle bed".
For dye you do want to apply it copiously, but neatly. On vertical surfaces start from the bottom up so runs occur over previously dyed area--runs or drips or splashes on bare areas should be covered immediately with dye and not allowed to dry before coating. Wiping off excess isn't the same as with oil based stain. With stain the basic darkness depends on how long you wait and how thoroughly you wipe off the stain. With dye the basic color is determined by how concentrated you mix the solution and wiping off is mostly a matter of prevented any puddles from drying on the surface.
Make sure you do some test samples with the dye. Dye is often quite ugly when it dries, and only reveals its true colors when a top coat is added.
Lacquer and polyurethane varnish are quite different. Lacquer, like shellac, dries by evaporation. It can always be redissolved with lacquer solvent. It dries quickly and hard, much harder than varnish, especially polyurethane varnish. Consequently, lacquer can be rubbed out to whatever gloss you want--including all the way to high gloss. Varnish is more difficult to rub out, with polyurethane varnish being particularly difficult to achieve an even sheen. Unless you wear your shoes to bed, you don't need the extra abrasion resistance of polyurethane varnish. Personally, if I didn't spray the lacquer I wouldn't switch to varnish, shellac can be applied by hand and will be quite attractive. Shellac rubs out almost as well as lacquer.
One more thing--for an excellent formula for Stickley check out the articles on http://www.homesteadfinishing.com. This is Jeff Jewitts company and he provides a good schedule.
Edited 8/3/2006 7:11 pm ET by SteveSchoene
Edited 8/3/2006 7:14 pm ET by SteveSchoene
Whoa. You forgot that there is a sealer step after the dye and before the gel stain. Be careful of buying a turbine system to use with lacquer. The turbine air is hot and it may dry the lacquer partially befor it has a chance to level on your surface. I have an acquaintance that has given up using his turbine in his pro shop for this reason. Look at the conversion guns from Homestead Finishing. I bought an Asturo.
Several thoughts come to mind:
Water-based dyes are fairly easy to work with and you can carefully work sections at a time without creating lap lines. There is no need to spray the dye although you can. The problem with spraying is that there is a tendency to spray too large of an area. Oil-based stains are more forgiving since they are usually slow drying and can be applied by hand or sprayed and then wiped down to achieve the color you want. The key to the stain is to remove all of the residue to avoid build-up in corners, crevices, etc. As with all finishing schedules, using scraps to test everything beforehand so you know the drying times for each product, how long to let the stain set, how many coats are needed for the desired color and how it will look when it is completed.
Regarding the top coats, I definitely would not recommend spray cans for a project of this size. First, spray cans provide no control over the fan pattern, the amount of material being applied or consistent pressure. They are an extremely poor substitute for a quality finish. They have their place for small touch-up work or for very small projects, but not for this project. And, they are extremely expensive.
I'm not sure about the design of the bed but it may be worthwhile for you to consider pre-finishing all of the parts and then assembling the bed. Spraying assembled had and foot boards like this can be tricky and if you are inexperienced it can become a very frustrating experience.
Like most things, you get what you pay for so I would not recommend a cheap HVLP if you decide to purchase a unit. A fair quality HVLP set-up will run around $750 or you have an option of buying a good quality HVLP conversion spray gun for $300 - $450 that will run off of an air compressor assuming it produces sufficient CFM's.
So, my suggestion: after applying the dye/stain, finish with a good quality wipe on poly. You can either purchase this as a wipe-on or buy regular poly and thin it with mineral spirits to about 50/50 to make your own. This will take between 4 and 8 coats depending on the product or your mix ratio but it is very simple to wipe it on and then wipe off the excess before it sets up. This process lays down extremely thin layers of poly and you can layer on several coats each day depending on the temperature and timidity level.
The other options include brushing on poly, varnish or lacquer. Deft makes a brush-on lacquer that flows well.
Good luck and please post your work in the Gallery when you have finished.
Doug
Edited 8/3/2006 11:20 am by DougF
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