Replies

1. 
   Floss | Mar 07, 2004 02:56am | #1

   Might be due to a change in humidity. They may be drying out, see if either side of the piece is cupped. Also the wood may not have been as dry as you thought.

   J.P.

1. 
   jaysingh | Mar 07, 2004 08:04am | #4

   Thanks for the opinion J.P. The lumber was kiln dried to about 6to8%. I looked at many peices I did not see the pieces cupping at all. Mind you they were pretty big spindles about 312 X 312 by 36". Could it be the glue he used? I have encountered problems where lumber will check, cup, or even split due to high moisture content or due to sudden tempreture change but this is weird, the climate was pretty consistent, the guy is a professional and a friend. Well see if any of this makes any sense to you. Thanks much. Jay.

1. 
   Floss | Mar 07, 2004 07:23pm | #9

   Jay,

   Here's my opinion as it relates to a personal experience.

   A few weeks ago another guy in the shop made a newell post for a customer that was 4" square from 2 pieces of cherry. Hand planed the two glue surfaces, glued up the blank and let it sit for about a week before it was turned.

   Turned the post and let it sit a couple of more weeks when a slight crack started to show at the glueline. For some reason the crack closed up right before the post was finished with 3 coats of poly.

   Now, the wood and the post were in a shop where the temperature varied from about 62 during the day and just above freezing at night. The shop is on the North Shore of MA across from the harbor so I am not sure of the huimidity however it is winter still so I don't think it was an issue.

   Sent the post out to the customer where it sat, at the job where it was to be installed, for a few more weeks when the glue line began to open

   The post is now back in the shop with a very large split at the glue line and it appears as if each half has cupped away from the glue line.

   My take is maybe the temperature had a role to play with the curing of the glue.

   Maybe the wood was case hardened and when it was milled the drier outer wood was removed to expose the inner wet wood thus the cupping.

   The temperature where the post was built was not similar enough to the temp where it would be installed, coupled with an improper glue bond, hence the movement.

   Maybe he should have used 3 or more laminations in order to help stabilize the whole piece rather than have two large sections more prone to movement.

   This is what I think is most plausible.

   I was a finish carpenter for 12 years before switching to furniture making and every newell post I installed was made from 3 to 4 laminations depending on its size, roughly 3.25 to 4.5 inches. I think most millwork companies do this because they primarily deal with 4/4 or 8/4 lumber. However I do think it affects stability by having smaller /thinner laminations rather than thicker ones.

   Anyway, just a theory.

   Good luck

   J.P.

   Edited 3/7/2004 11:29:16 AM ET by j.p.

   Edited 3/7/2004 11:32:13 AM ET by j.p.

   Edited 3/7/2004 1:03:56 PM ET by j.p.

2. 
   mike4244 | Mar 07, 2004 02:59am | #2

   Jay, are all the spindles splitting, what type of glue did you use? Could be several things, old glue, green wood, glue starved, faces not flat and smooth before glue up.

   mike

1. 
   jaysingh | Mar 07, 2004 07:54am | #3

   Thankx for your reply MIke. Not all of the spindles split, just about half of them. I did not do the project. It was one of my customers whom I sold the lumber to. The lumber was sold @ 6to8% moisture content and when the customer complained and I took spindles back to the office and inspected the spindles 90% of them where split on the glue line and it had some what spread to other areas. It seems that the spliting started and kept going. We did put a moisture meter and measured @ 9% moisture content the spindles. The lumber was delivered in early January when it was the coldest here in NY I think that the climate had something to do with it but GLUE seems to be the big culprit here. My company is being sued for this and I figure why not get some professional opinion on this matter. Thank you.

1. 
   SgianDubh | Mar 07, 2004 01:17pm | #5

   Jay, it seems a little odd to me that your friend and customer is sueing your company for a problems that appears to be outwith your control.

   You sold the timber in good faith at about 6% to 8% MC and they accepted it. That means they inspected it and found it acceptable. If they didn't, I'd be surprised. Having found the quality acceptable they then go ahead with ripping, crosscutting, selecting grain for match, planing flat and square, thicknessing, applying glue and clamping it all together, and finally they turn it into spindles. At some point during the processing, faults in the wood such as case hardening, honeycombing, uneven drying, surface checking, spike knots, dead knots, live knots, ring shakes, cup shakes, thunder shakes, spalting or severe mould, insect infestation, etc., would have become graphically apparent.

   My question would be at what point should the woodworker take over responsibility for what happens to the wood after you've sold it to them? My answer to that is, immediately. If they noticed any of the faults listed above, and others not mentioned during the processing of the timber they should have stopped work, contacted you immediately, and let you investigate their complaint. If there was a genuine problem, they should have given you the opportunity to replace all the bad stock with good stock. If they noticed problems but ploughed on regardless, that's their choice, not yours.

   As the supplier you can't be responsible for the conditions your customer keeps the material in, the quality of the workmanship, nor the quality of the glue used. The list of items the purchaser is responsible for goes on and on once they've taken the material off your hands, store it and start working it.

   It looks to me suspisciously like your customer is trying to pass the blame for their responsibilities on to you. That's my professional opinion anyway. Slainte.

   RJFurniture

   Edited 3/7/2004 6:14 am ET by Sgian Dubh

1. 
   patternmaker | Mar 07, 2004 04:56pm | #8

   Jay: Pay atention to R.J.

   The seller of the material has no responsibility

   for what happens to the material after it leaves his control.

   My view is that the joints were improperly made or inferior glue was used.Mebby both.I don`t think that your customer was much of a friend.

   Work safely ¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬PAT¬¬¬¬¬¬¬

3. 
   koikid | Mar 07, 2004 02:11pm | #6

   Jay,  I totally agree with Slainte on his post he sumed up about every thing. I my self don't see that this is your problem,  I guess your Company is a wood dealer?  Figure that this was 8/4  or larger stock that he glued up and was it purchased rough sawn?  I'm sure I would not be to happy if I had turned a bunch of spindles and they all started splitting I would be a little #@&*, but to  be Sued over it and supposedly by a Friend!  But in this sue happy world that this country has turned into because of our foolish peers that sit on the Jury and award these then I don't doubt it. You said he was a "Professional"  what lawyer?

   Good luck..Marsh

1. 
   BG | Mar 07, 2004 04:41pm | #7

   Jay,

   The Ash legs I turned for my coffee table at least a year ago (maybe two) are splitting too...along the glue lines.  It seems to me the dryness of this winter is the culprit. I started out with 3.5"x 20" blanks made up from two pieces of ash...

4. 
   JohnWW | Mar 08, 2004 06:16pm | #10

   Jay,

   If the wood was flatsawn, and the rings faced in opposite directions when the posts were glued up, then the pieces will cup in opposing directions when the posts gain or lose moisture.  The force created by two boards trying to cup away from each other could easily break a joint even if it was properly glued up.  Note that gaining moisture will cause just as much cupping as losing moisture, in this case the wood was very dry and probably absorbed moisture when moved into a moister environment such as a new house that had high moisture levels from fresh concrete, sheetrock, and painting.

   Note that this has nothing to do with the moisture level of the wood when you sold it to the fabricator or the moisture level when the boards were glued together.  Even a perfectly kilned board that was at an equilibrium level for the environment at the time it was glued up will cup later on when the moisture level changes in the air.  Flatsawn boards will cup and straighten out forever as the moisture in the surrounding air changes, if this isn't taken into account when the boards are glued up it is inevitable that splits will develop in at least some of the pieces.

   This was discussed in greater detail a few weeks back on this site, a search using my name should turn up the discussion.

   John W.

   
   

   ---

   Edited 3/8/2004 1:34:32 PM ET by JohnW

1. 
   jaysingh | Mar 09, 2004 12:05am | #11

   John thank you very much for your input. I am very pleased  with all the great responses I have gotton from everyone here. This was my first time ever visiting this website and posting my questions to everyone and it has been a great experience. Anyways on the matter of the turnings we decided to give him credit for the whole amount even though we were not at falut but we did,  from our sincere comitiment to a good relationship that we like to maintain with our customers. He will still be our customer and we can continue to work togather and hopefully we can make it up over time. Thank you very much again and thanks to all of my other professional freinds that helped me throught this and I look forward to being a regular here.

                                                                                       Jay Singh.

1. 
   JohnWW | Mar 09, 2004 04:23am | #13

   Jay,

   I can understand why you might settle up with this guy just to get it over with and to keep your business reputation, but I wouldn't ever want him as a customer again. 

   It was his fault, not yours and if he doesn't learn from the experience it will happen again and he'll expect you to to bail him out one more time.

   John W.

    

2. 
   ChasStanford | Mar 09, 2004 03:15am | #12

   Well said... this is most likely exactly what happened.  Great post on a subject often overlooked and a classic beginner mistake when gluing up leg blanks or turning blanks.

1. 
   JohnWW | Mar 09, 2004 04:25am | #14

   Thank you, wood movement is badly understood by a lot of otherwise skilled wooodworkers.

   John W.