I wanted to run this idea by the group for suggestions. I plan to make a mini stroke sander, but different from the standard design to save floor space. Mine would be mounted above my infinitely adjustable height woodworking workbench and could be quickly removed when not needed. Instead of having a sliding table, the stroke sander would freely slide back and forth on rails above, so that it could sand any surface up to the width of the workbench. To sand longer or wider panels, they could be repositioned on the bench. I would want to keep the mass and size of the sander to a minimum, so I am thinking of making the belt 4″ wide and the sanding length (capacity) about 36″ to 48″. I am looking at 2 different designs, a 3-wheel design and a 2-wheel design. If I used 2 wheels, the non-driven wheel would be on slides and spring loaded, but it would have to be designed to have very little friction in the sliding mechanism. The rails above would be tubes with ball bearings on a carriage to minimize friction. To use the sander, there would be a handle to move the whole sander side to side while moving the pad back and forth. I don’t know if a guide would be needed for the pad, since the belt would be narrow. If so, I would add that later. I think I would mount the motor on the assembly above that would not be removed with the sander. That way, it would lighten the part I remove when I want to use the bench. Any other ideas and suggestions are appreciated.
Thanks,
Bill
Replies
It sounds to me like this will be more work than just picking up a good portable belt sander.
Have you ever used a good stroke sander before? I have a nice Oakley, with the platen mounted on a rail with a lever arm which gives me a 3.5 - 1 leverage advantage, and keeps the pad tracking over the belt.
I use it by moving the table in and out, while moving the platen left and right, with the combined motions producing a sanding path more or less 45ยบ relative to the panel. This gives me instant visible feedback for how much is being sanded, but takes some practice to learn.
I don't think you are being realistic with the size you are thinking, when you think about putting your hand inside the belt, in a tight space, not just keeping the platen on the belt, but the risk of one bad move running your hand around between the wheel, and belt could leave you with a mangled hand, or getting a nasty paper-cut.
Keith,The design would have plenty of room for hand clearance and a shield in front of the wheel to prevent the hand going in. I would think that this small stroke sander design would have better control than a heavy 4" hand held belt sander. Thanks
You should find the old article in FWW on the home built stroke sander. It's a lot easier to just leave it set up than to break it down all the time. You can buy a small Boice Crane stroke sander for cheap. Some stroke sanders are almost given away as most folks don't have a clue about them
Have you seen the belt sanders with the sanding shoe or frame. Makita makes a nice one. I would go that route.
Don't get me wrong. I'm a big advocate of stroke sanders. Been using them for 35 years for metal and wood. I would take a stroke sander over a drum sander anyday. I'm glad someone is interested in the stroke sander. Very few even know what they are. Seems FWW should do a feature comparing the drum, widebelt and stroke sander. For the money the stroke sander is the clear winner.
That would be a great article with stroke sanders -vs- the others. I am one of those who never heard/seen/used a stroke sander until the last year when my father who was a cabinet maker by trade mentioned using one when he was making cabinets. Since then I have been sort of keeping my eye out for an inexpensive one or creating one myself.B.Kidd
Great article and a very compact stroke sander that looks easy to build, it’s by A. W. Marlow in issue #29 pages 47-51 (July 1981). It is also in “Fine Woodworking On making and Modifying Machines”. This article from the old black and white glory days of the magazine.
Bill,
I like stroke sanders very much, but it sounds as if what you're contemplating will be cumbersome to set up and take down. Are you really going to set it up for 2 minutes worth of sanding?
Also keep in mind that a stroke sander makes A LOT of dust fast. You need to be connected to DC somehow.
Maybe there's some way you can take an existing machine (they're so cheap it's foolish not to buy one) and use the space underneath it in another way. I have a cast iron monster that's 3 meters long, and the space underneath is never used. Build a storage cabinet for hardware or something else to use the space.
David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
Bill, the thing does not have to occupy a lot of space and folks have already commented on the practicality of your design proposals.
I made a simple one years ago and it has saved a ton of boring work....
That's the home made stroke sander by Marlowe featured in FWW years ago. Unfortunately they entirely neglected how to properly mkae the handblock. I learned from a 30 year SS veteran. 1/4 firm felt glued to a piece of 1/16" cardboard. Then you take graphite cloth and put the felt pad, cardboard side up to the wood, and staple the graphite cloth to the handblock. Best place for custom belts and also graphite cloth is http://www.industrialabrasives.com
Ultimate graphite source is http://www.proengcorp.com/graphite.htm#top%20of%20page
We used their graphite for all our sroke sanders and specialty sanders such as moulding sanders, drawer edge sanders, widebelts, etc. Check out the graphite mitt. We used it with J weight 4" flexible belts for "hand sanding" radiused edges on table tops.
http://www.proengcorp.com/graphite_accessories.htm#top%20of%20page
Hey RickL Thanks for the links, I had forgotten to order when I put the last belt on, and it is starting to dull, so I just placed an order from your source. I like you think that these are great tools for those of us who need the speed, ease of use, and sensitivity that these tools offer. Add to that, the fact that there are nice big ones showing up on the auction sites going dirt cheap, form the industrial shops which are being closed due to overseas competition, I suppose.I was wondering which grits you like most? I know from reading enough of your contributions to the forums that your machining before you go to the SS would be good. So where do you normally start, and which do you end with? I know that I seem to get better finish with this than I do with a portable belt sander.
Stroke sanders have been cheap ever since I can remember. I've seen some nice cast iron Mattisons going for as little as $200. A few years ago I picked up a Mattison in New Hampshire for $700. It was in a pile in a barn. Several people had looked at it but didn't know if it was all there. Installed it in a custom metal shop. The shop owner thought there was no way to duplcate his hand rubbed finishes...boy was he wrong.
Most of the tool catalogs have reasonably priced stoke sanders in them like Grizzly, Woodworkers Supply, Minimax, Progress. Still cheaper than making one and used it's an even better deal. It's a bit of a learning curve but not too bad. I've seen some folks give up completely. Wodworkers are a tough bunch to change habits with. Most guys won't buy into new technology until their buddy gets one first. Stroke sanders are one of the best forgotten tools out there.
Typically I start with 100 grit and maybe 80 grit if I have to level out someones botched glue up. In the factories we never went past 120 or we could never stain a piece dark. I don't usually bother going past 150 grit.
The nice thing about stroke sanders is you can go right to finishing from them. Drum sanders leave ripples from the drums which must be sanded out so you might as well ditch the drum sander entirely and go with a stroke sander
I have not been able to see any ripples in the work from my double drum sander. I sand to 120 and the cabinet shops I make parts for send them straight to finish with no additional sanding.------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
There are ripples there. Rub some stain on a piece. Widebelts with platens can give good finishes because of the platen. A widebelt without a platen is pretty much a glorified drum sander. Drum sanders with velcro don't have as pronounced a ripple as a hard rubber drum and non-velcro paper. You are probably using velcro paper.
Sanding issues are even more apparent in metal working. We used special handblocks for duplicating the brushed look of stainless steel.
I've been in factories and custom shops as well as metal shops and have been tweaking and rebuilding machines for 35 years. I've worked with double through feed widebelts and sanders you don't even see anymore.
I have finished many pieces as have the cabinet shops, no apparent ripples. I am using the velcro backed abrasives.
I have no doubt that with proper instrumentation ripples could be detected, in practice they are undetectable. You will find that on a woodworking forum most drum sander owners are sanding wood not metal.------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
Thanks for the reply. 100 grit is what use most, but I ordered some 150 as well. I made the mistake of ordering some 220 once, and that was too fine for most things. I had been ordering from Norton, and let them talk me into some norzon paper belts, which probably would be fine for most machines, but my belt length is 30', and is the double belt model. I found that for my length I was always more concerned with belt tension for the paper changing length with humidity changes. And the smallest ding in the edge of a paper belt was more likely to cause one to break than is likely with cloth.
Actually it is not the home made sander by Marlowe-it is the one by Marcou (;).
The handblock is right there- graphite slip cloth with it's own backing, glued to leather glued to the wood.
I alaways thought I would make a bigger machine with a guided lever operated sanding block but that little one has done very well.Philip Marcou
Philip,
Do you have any kind of dust collection for it?
-Steve
Steve- the dust collection is primitive-I just bring up that vacuum with a hood and place it at one end. Not really good enough .
The industrial ones have their own fan and cowlings.Philip Marcou
Philip, Your sander looks pretty compact.People in this group had some good points. After reading them, I think:1) Sharing the workbench for another purpose would not be a good idea.
2) It is human nature to hesitate to use a tool if it is not ready and waiting.
3) Dust collector connections are a good reason to make the stroke sander a permanent setup.
4) A compact stroke sander would be worth the floor space.I still think it would be possible to come up with a design that would not take up much floor space(when not being used) and only take a minute to set up. What does the capacity(width and thickness) need to be to cover 80% of the work for small to medium sized furniture? The key point here is still space savings.
Bill,
I think I have posted some of these pictures before but here are some more so you can see that it is quite easy to make if you prefer to make one. The main item ofcourse is the motor: I used a 2 horse three phase there.
I will measure the footprint tomorrow.
Definitely worth the space in a small shop: apart from the usual panels and smallish tops etc that one has sanded flat and smooth over 9000 (nine thousand) wooden coat hangers which I used to make for hotels (furniture factories did not want to do them). For the coat hangers a wide belt sander would have been ideal but I didn't have one.Philip Marcou
"...over 9000 (nine thousand) wooden coat hangers which I used to make for hotels..."
I'll bet that was your favorite commission of all time.
It looks like the rollers are made out of one of those dense Southern Hemispherical hardwoods, right?
-Steve
P.S. You forgot to make a safety cover for the belt.
Philip
Happy New Year, buddy.
How did you keep from going insane making 9000 hangers????
I made 40 chairs for a restaurant last year, and I thought I was going to completely lose my mind.
You must have the patience of a billy goat.
Jeff
Cheers, Jeff.
I didn't make them all at one go-hell no. I made them at the rate of about 2000 per year- once I had an official order it would be solid graft for about 25 days. I had an assistant to do the sanding between coats (cut back) and to bend and thread the hooks. Quite painful but plenty of scope for "doing it smarter next time"- and they paid well.
I am only patient when I am under the impression that I am doing the job as fast as possible (;).Philip Marcou
Steve,
The two main rollers are hollow : joined up square in cross section and turned round after the steel hubs had been screwed on-very easy.
I used Pterocarpus Angolensis ans sprayed it with a matt black paint.
The tracking wheel is turned from solid-Jacaranda wood.
Actually not very enjoyable work at all so it became necessary to adopt a certain state of mind until each contract was complete.Philip Marcou
"Actually not very enjoyable work at all..."
Yes, I realize that. I guess my sarcasm didn't come through....
I doubt that I could stand making 9,000 of anything. Well, I guess I wouldn't mind making $9,000. ;-)
-Steve
Hey Mook, is the top idler wheel also the tracking adjustment? Do you reach through the front while it is running to make adjustments ?Also, I was wondering if you ever have any slipping from the drive wheel. It looks kinda slick. After getting a pretty high price to replace the rubber on my edge sander, I skuff-sanded the drive wheel, and did a thin build-up with high tack spray contact cement. I was pretty proud of cheap discovery method. It is staying on, and really grips.Nice job. Did I ever tell you how to turn one of these into a spear launcher? Back in the days when I used employees, I had one fellow sanding, and another down the same wall cutting parts to length with a radial saw. Just as the RA sawyer reached out to grab the saw handle, the sander guy put a 6' 1 x 1 crown down, and started at the stop and ran the platen down to the other end, which popped the end up and over the stop. The radial saw guy said, What just made my shirt jump out and put that hole in it? It just missed him, and he didn't even see it go by. The shooter just about pooped. While I can tell this story with a bit of humor now, I hope all of you that need to know this lesson will remember. "When you have an arrow or spear sticking through your torso, it hurts like hell when you laugh". So don't tell someone with that infliction a funny story. Ha
Captain Keith ,
the top wheel is the tracking and tension wheel and at no time did I experience an urge to reach through the front to adjust anything whilst it was running...
There is no slippage problem-originally the wheels were painted but the cloth belts are quite harsh. If I press very hard on the sanding block the motor (2 horse) will stuggle, but no slippage.
I would think that your "slippage fix" works the same way as that belt dressing gunk for spraying onto vee belts and the like.
Actually it is always surprising me that such a crude and simple machine has worked so well without any problems at all.
Thanks for the story-in fact my machine has been very boring- never done anything exciting (yet).Philip Marcou
This is a strange comment, but there is something quite soothing and artistic about that original picture of your shop...the one with all the green machinery and the single wooden chair. It captures something intangible about hard work...craftsmanship...old school...I don't know. Good picture, though.
At any rate, I have nothing to add to the thread on stroke sanders except to say that they must be great because there are some seriously passionate stroke sander acolytes out there on the forums. I remember initiating a thread on drum sanders once and I got about 20 unsolicited messages touting the unrivaled ecstasy of stroke sanders. Its quite remarkable, actually. Alas, the drum sander crowd was not as enthusiastic....apparently for good reason.
You made > 9000 of those lovely wooden hangers on that stroke sander? Do wooden hangers haunt your dreams after that (shudder). That is a LOT of hangers to sand by hand. Do you insist on using only plastic hangers at home? How long would it take to make one of those hangers (or do we not want to know...?). That's got to be a seriously meditative and repetitive task....
Rick
I've got a stroke sander kit for sale cheap. See my post earlier tonight .Al Ladd
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