At the risk of over exposure to the resident cognoscenti I show these pictures. The planes belong to a GP who also has made a few, and makes furniture as a hobby. They are part of his collection of “several hundred”.The pictures are at random, as I could not very well spend too much time on it.What a source of inspiration and knowledge, and I look forward to taking him up on his invitation to see the whole collection…..
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Replies
Very nice!
Too bad they were useless for their intended purpose after just a few demonstration cuts due to the high wear rate of metal against wood. I would imagine that by the time the original owner had used them enough to plane a few boards the poor mouths were worn to the point of uselessness.
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Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
~ Denis Diderot
ha ha ha
Don
I see you've been reading other threads!! Too funny!
Take it easy,
Jeff heading out to the shop to protect his metal planes from that nasty wood!
Don is on the ball, for sure.Philip Marcou
There's no doubt about that.
Nice pictures of the planes. I always enjoy seeing the collections. Perhaps someday, when I'm too old to use them, I'll start my own.
Jeff
Here is one that I did take detailed pictures of. It is a "Jennings", number 7 size. The pictures show the main features. The wood in the sole is not the same as that on the handle and knob.
Again, it is another one with wear around the mouth and leading arris that is not in proportion to the extreme wear of the wood-in other words I would expect the mouth to be far worse than it is-Larry, what is your verdict?Pic004 shows toe at top.
Edited 3/6/2009 11:18 pm by philip
philip wrote: "The wood in the sole is not the same as that on the handle and knob."It's supposed to be though. Brazilian rosewood all the way. I've reconditioned many of these planes in the past -- though it's getting harder to find longer lengths of Brazilian rosewood nowadays for the jointers. As a cheaper alternative I'll sometimes use cocobolo.I have about 3 Steers smoothers in for refurbishment at the moment - one with a Stanley type frog (which basically makes it a Jennings, rather than a Steers Patent). No hurry for these though (I have such patient clients) :-)
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Cameron,
Can you let us see pictures of these planes being refurbished?
Yes, the handle wood seems to be mahogany like with fine grain- maybe a replacement, but what information is there on these planes? Nothing resulted from a Google , for me at least.
As it happens, the gentleman actually forgot that one in my shop, since all the others fitted into various boxes. So I can now have a good look at it.Philip Marcou
>> Cameron,
>> Can you let us see pictures of these planes being refurbished?I'll try and remember to take some photos in the next day or so. Workshop is still in disarray at this stage. I've been "sans workshop" for about a year but it's slowly getting back together in a new place/area. I do know where at least two of the Steers/Jennings planes are though so they're accessible at least.
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Hi Philip,
What a toy box full of goodies!
A fine selection of,to me at any rate, unusual old instruments,even tho' as Don says, they seem to have odd drawbacks!
Quite a number of features I would like to know about,e.g.,the material in the corrugations of the sole of the #7..is that wood?
Robin
Robin,
It's wood alright, what's left of it. Seems like that plane has seen much use and abuse , judging by the dings in the toe and heel ends.There were others, not of the same make, which also had wood strips dovetailed into the sole.Not sure, but think that the sole wood in that #7 is a Rosewood-difficult to tell because it is so black all over.Philip Marcou
Garrett Hack has a picture of a "Steer" brand plane with rosewood strips dovetailed into the sole in his book. It look similar to what was posted -- his photo has three strips of rosewood behind the mouth and four in front of the mouth -- I can't remember what was in the photo here. Interesting logic to make the more strips toward the toe.Just read CR Miller's post -- I'm posting old news!
Edited 3/9/2009 12:56 am ET by Joel7
Philip
Me wonders what the efficient way of creating those dovetails in the soles of planes would have been 100 years ago, or more. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe they had mills back then.....did they???? Would that have been done with a hacksaw and scrapers, or is there another way that a hack welder like me knows little about.
BTW, I saw a large, toothy, predatorial looking creature swim straight past your hook, without so much as a glance your way. You need to re-bait your hook, my friend. he he
Jeff
The first milling machines were built in the early 1800's. I think Eli Whitney had his in 1818 but others were working on similar machines at the time.
Is that what they used to dovetail the souls of these planes infilled with rosewood that I occasionally see?
Thanks for answering.
Jeff
Jeff,
To the best of my knowledge they certainly had mills then capable of doing those dovetails with rotating cutters.Flaming great steam engines and the like were being built near the beginning of the 1800's.
But I would have though the most convenient way would have been with a shaper-the engineering type, not to be confused with the woodworking spindle shaper. This has a reciprocating head with a suitable tool tip which takes a thin shave each time in one direction. Cast iron is very amenable to being worked that way.
But it could easily be confirmed by having a look under one of those ways, to see if there are the familiar mill marks or the longitudinal lines made by a shaper. I am not about to slide out one of those strips though unless it would like to slide out with minimal persuasion from me (;)
I would also like to confirm if the castings had the rough slots cast in , which then would be refined by either method- makes more sense since I would assume they made those en masse.Philip Marcou
>> Me wonders what the efficient way of creating those dovetails in the soles of planes would have been 100 years ago, or more.I can't remember offhand. Some planes have the dovetails end in a crisp "squared off" 90 degree shoulder (can't recall if it's undercut like a dovetail), while others end in a ramp. I think it's mostly the Steers that have the ramp and the Jennings with the 90 degree grooves. I would think that it would be the safer option to mill the grooves after the plane body is cast. I'll look for mill marks and see if I can spot any though.
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"I'll look for mill marks and see if I can spot any though".
Yes, that will settle it and be easy to do if you can slide one insert out a bit. The wood on the plane I have seems to be in there quite tight and I wouldn't want to push it too much.
Cameron: do you have the books by Roger Smith "Patented Transitional &Metallic Planes in America"?Philip Marcou
Thanks Philip,
If it can be done quickly without wasting your time, was there a specific reason for wood inlays in soles,like a forerunner to a corrugated style?
Robin
Robin,
I don't know of any specific reason for doing it, although I could make some guesses. I would think that the manufacturers must have had good reasons to justify the extra work and expense.It is something I will no doubt read about at some stage, and compare with what I see.
Maybe the Anti Boutique Plane Brigade was not up to full strength in those days. (;)Philip Marcou
Yep,maybe not..
Could it be that it might be the emergence of Sir Davids nemesis,the dreaded 'frou frou' as applied to handplanes,do you think? :-)
Robin
Very nice.
Thanks for posting the photos
Troy
Philip,
The plane in P3070043 gives me goose bumps. It looks so much like the ones that I came up with (read: modification of bedrocks). Can you tell me some more about it, such as the make, age, etc.
I thought that my modifications were 'original', and had no clue that it was done before. ...an example of a reincarnation of a fine taste <g>?
Best wishes,
Metod
Metod,
Well we do know that it is hard to do anything original with these things....
Sorry, can't remember the maker name, but do remember that the cap can be adjusted up or down by that screw, and that lever hanging down is the lateral adjust which works by a screw action as well.I will be seeing them all again I hope.Philip Marcou
Philip,
Thanks for your reply. I was referring to the 'angular' shape of the sides/wings. My simple mind is still very much in the tap-tap mood and mode for the depth of cut adjustments and the grubs for the lateral one. Any luck with a jigsaw?
Best wishes,
Metod
Metod,That's a Steers patent plane.http://patimg1.uspto.gov/.piw?idkey=NONE&docid=0284919
Larry,
Thank you for the information/link.
Best wishes,
Metod
>> The plane in P3070043 gives me goose bumps. It looks so much like the ones that I came up with (read: modification of bedrocks). Can you tell me some more about it, such as the make, age, etc.That's a Sargent No. 714 Auto-Set jack plane, which was patented in 1915 (January 12th to be exact). Interesting to note, unlike Stanley and other makers of the time, Sargent originally made their plane handles and knobs from "East India Mahogany".
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Cameron,
Thanks for the info. Its shape is very close to what I came up with for my metal jack, as well as my woodies.
Best wishes,
Metod
beautiful planes
Philip,
"What a source of inspiration and knowledge".
How true that is! Those objects must contain many design lessons, concerning not just utility in planing wood but also methods of manufcture and the consequent effects on plane wear, handling, maintenance and so forth. The question is, how will you extract those design lessons?
One method must be to examine the construction, which perhaps contains it's own logic and arguments (both for and agin the design).....? But another method must be to use the tools to perform everyday WW tasks,which surely must be the best route to understanding how their design affects their utility.....?
I woud be interested to know. The same issue comes up for me when I gawp at furniture, as I have been doing this week whilst staying near Cheltenham. Getting one's eyes up close to the actual pieces (by Gimson, Barnsley and others, in this case) certainly reveals detail and the associated design intent that can't be got from ordinary photos. Naturally I would also like to take all those items out of the Cheltenham museum and use them for decade to better understand their utility. :-)
I wonder if you could make explicit, here in a Knots post, how you will extract that "inspiration and knowledge" from those planes. Indeed, how you have done so previously to make those beauts now adorning my tool set?
Lataxe, wanting to learn about learning via copy/adaption of existing designs.
Sire,
How will I extract....
A viewing of the collection is possible next Saturday, in Aukland, and I may be able to try a few out, or see which ones he likes to use and why. The good thing is the fact that he is no slouch when it comes to woodworking either (apart from having made a few not uncomplicated planes himself).He also has books such as those by Roger Smith, so I can look at those and decide which are best for me to obtain, as some of them are mighty expensive.
I am just hoping that I will see something really clever but simple, not currently "in vogue", but with some tweaking or adapting can take on new life amongst the hordes of woodworms worldwide. One never knows until one looks....with an open mind.Philip Marcou
Philip
Thats a great collection, did he purchase them in NZ or abroad?
John
John,
Those were just a few that he brought to show me.
I would assume that most of the collection was acquired in NZ, but I will know more when I visit him .Philip Marcou
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