Need a little advice here on soldering. I have never done it, always used epoxy when I needed to join metal to metal.
Lately, I have taken on some furniture repair jobs, some of which require brass hardware or other metal connections to be repaired. My next tool purchase will be a soldering iron (or gun) and I will need some practise with it. Can anyone recommend a good brand and size (wattage, etc) intended for hardware repair in antique furniture? I looked at a couple of Weller guns today at Lowes, but I believe they are intended more for electrical work. Any advice is appreciated, as always.
Gary
Replies
You may be better off with a torch. What gauge of metal are you going to solder?
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Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
~ Denis Diderot
Yep. I been spending some time over in a metal chat room
http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/index.php
There is some info over there specific to soldering that you can just read.
Solder ( ~ 500° F ) is weak so depends on what you are working on. Best to have a mechanical joint and then just use the solder like glue in a dove tail wood joint.
For strength have a very tight fit up and silver braze it ~ ( 1100 ° F ) . That is what they put jewelry and silver table ware like tea pots etc together with. Less conspicuous this way also.
For torch soldering a propane/air torch will do. For silver brazing you can use the following:
Can use an acetylene/air torch or oxy/acetylene if you are good (and quick). I use some thing in between, oxy/propylene, but the torch takes some getting used to.
The surface you do this on can make or break your attempt. Use some thing that will throw the heat back onto your work rather than suck it out. A charcoal block, a fire brick from a kiln etc.
You could pre place the solder and do it in an oven that gets above 500°.
There is an article in an old FWW mag showing soldering a dove tailed hand plane together by putting it on an electric burner like a hot plate or kitchen stove. That coil when red is up around 1600°
Practice, practice, practice
Ok I feel another novel coming on but will restrain my self. You may be dealing with bronze rather than brass if these are castings. For bronze the way to go is my favorite machine the TIG welder. Forget about doing this yourself take it to a small mom and pop bronze foundry. They will use something called foz copper which can be a perfectly blended joint color and strength wise.
roc
PS: if you must use a soldering iron get one of the big monster ones with a huge chunk of copper on the end. There are two types one is electric the other you put in a heater and pull it out momentarily to heat the solder joint. Too easy to disturb the joint alignment when you touch it with any thing but heat or a flame so SI may not be the way to go for you.
To give you an idea of what the soldering guns or "regular" soldering iron can do; they max out on a little thing like soldering the end of a control cable ( so it doesn't fray ) the size of a motorcycle brake cable. Or a couple of electrical wires the same size. That's all they can do.
Edited 1/30/2009 1:39 am by roc
Edited 1/30/2009 1:48 am by roc
I have to endorse Roc's comments. A 100W iron is pretty feeble really. Moreover you need to press quite hard to transfer the heat.
Soldering iron is useless. Soft solder is pretty much useless for what you want. Silver Brazing is the proper technique.
As a Metalsmith I have done lots of hardware making and repairs from hinges to Architectural details such as lamp parts as well as plating and casting of all kinds of furniture parts, lamps, etc.
I use a standard oxy/acetylene torch but for small stull a oxy/acetylene jewelers torch will suffice. They do make a version that uses oxygen/propane that will work. You will need a few thousand degrees to Silver braze properly.
http://www.metalliferous.com/pdf/books/JewelryMaking.pdf
http://www.riogrande.com http://www.gesswein.com The jewelers forums will be your best source. Go to Barnes and Noble and search the Jewelers magazines for sources of suppliers. Tim McCreight's books are great sources.
Silver brazing is what you want to learn and it's not the easiest thing to teach yourself.
Metalworking is a very useful thing to learn and working with brass you can use most of the standard woodworking machines such as the table saw, drill press, chop saw. Brass cuts like butter on a table saw with a negative hook blade which is a standard woodworking blade for the radial arm saw and chop saw.
Edited 1/30/2009 9:18 am ET by RickL
Hey,
While looking for some other article I came across the one that shows soldering on an electric burner. I did not find it in FWW on line so maybe you have the paper magazine. It is :
Fine Wood Working Nov 1985 and the article is called Making a Panel Plane by Charles Dolan
It is also in the book series The Best of Fine Woodworking.
He dovetailed the plane and used 50/50 solder.
A very nice plane by the way.
roc
PS: for those interested in serious machine tool fettling he explains it the way a fine metal lathe would be fettled so there is something here for everyone. For more info in that respect see the book
The Thames and Hudson Manual of Metalworking by Peter Scott from 1978 a totally cool book ( color pics, art oriented, in the Brit lingo, allot of detail to processes . . . )
PPS: Amazon had it ! ! ! isn't this remarkable ! I figured it would be so obscure to be unavailable. No pic on line so did not post it.
Edited 2/1/2009 3:11 pm by roc
Edited 2/1/2009 3:14 pm by roc
The dovetail would hold the parts in place and the 50/50 solder would be like glue. Not applicable for hardware repair. Silver brazing is the way to go. Did you know that silver brazing can repair cracked planes with an almost invisible fix. Cadmium silver braze flows best but is very toxic and requires good ventilation. Proficient silver brazing is an acquired skill. Also available in different temperature ranges to assemble such things with multiple parts such as tea pot with handle, spout, etc. Silver brazing is what holds the carbide teeth on saw blades so you can get an idea of it's strength compared to soft solder.
Rick,>Cadmium . . . toxic . . . silver brazing is an acquired skill. . . filler metal different temp ranges. . . holds the carbide teeth on saw blades . . . high strength compared to soft solder.<My man you are preaching to the quire. Been silver brazing for 30 + years. It is a specialty of what I do.I just thought people might want to see the article on the plane soldered on the stove top since we don't read about that sort of thing everyday here.I agree; it doesn't much apply to OP's requirement but soldering is where we began this thread.It is so backward here where I live that back in the '80s I tried to order some 56% silver cad free filler wire from the welding supply where I get my bottles filled and bought my TIG welder. They said no you don't want that. I said yes. I do. They said it is expensive. I said I don't care what it costs. They said it is a special order. I said APPARENTLY ! ? They said it is too expensive you don't want that. I said what part of I don't care what it costs don't you understand?And we went around and around like that a few more times. After I had a go round with their "in store welding engineer" they finally ordered it. Sheeeze !Just the ticket for what I used it for.Ahhh the wild wild west.rocPS: Have you ever tried the oxy/propylene with your torch ?
Edited 2/1/2009 11:40 pm by roc
Would never have known your past. Didn't think the 50/50 would be of any use for hardware repair. Too weak. Most woodworkers don't know much about metal and soldering. Actaully a lot of metalworkers don't know much about soldering. Metal is a hugely diverse subject like wood. Think of framers versus furniture makers versus pattern makers. All work with wood but the trades are not interchangable.
Have you ever tried the oxy/propylene with your torch ?
That's more an industrial process. Cuts similar to propane and require less tip cleaning. We did have a torch designed for natural gas. About a 1,000 degrees less than acetylene and works grea for soldering. One shop did an induction heating process with silver braze strips. A matter of seconds and it was done. Definitely a production process.
http://www.gasflux.com/ Been thinking about the gasflux technique. Flux is a messy part of soldering and this looks like a real simple option and will help with the clean up pickling process.
Edited 2/2/2009 7:36 am ET by RickL
>oxy/propylene<Sounds like you are thinking I am thinking cutting torch. What I use it for is torch brazing using silver with the oxy/propylene "welding" torch. It is enough cooler that the silver flows slower, compared to oxy/acetylene, and is easier not to over heat the work. NICE, NICE, NICE !>gasflux technique<
I had a friend who used this and liked it allot. I tried it once at his shop to make some metal foil roses that he was producing in quantity for a supplement to his income.
For most of my work I must use the preplaced flux because I need the silver to flow quite a ways between tubular "lugged" joints.
Rocky ,
You are describing what is otherwise known as silver SOLDERING in the known world outside of the USA.
No wonder there were blank stares when I used those words some time back on this here forum (;)Philip Marcou
Hi Philip !>what is called silver SOLDERING in the known world outside of the USA.Yes. I know. Most people here will call a process that is above 1000° F soldering also. Soldering is a process around 500° F as you know.I say lets drag the world (known, unknown and just plane stupid, ) into the future and accurate terminology whether they like it or not. While we are at it lets chuck the whole inches and pounds thing and go metric.See that is why they don't let me play with guns or put me in a position with any power or authority what so ever.I do hope they come round with some more meds these are starting to wear off. While you are hear could you just loosen all these buckles on the back of this restraint; er um I mean nice jacket. That's a good lad. Thats the way ! Just one more and . . .
silver SOLDERING in the known world outside of the USA???
Not true. US Army welding school. One of the first thing I was taught was brass and silver soldering then Monel?.
"US Army welding school."
Ahh, now you've tipped your hand! Verne
If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there to cut it up and make something with it . . . what a waste!<!----><!----><!---->
I was referring to general use not cutting when referring to oxy/propylene . It has the same temperature properties to propane or natural gas. Just used to moving really fast with acetylene. For larger peices we typically preheat with a plumbers propane torch and use the oxy/natural gas to do the main work. Seems the propane or natural gas would be fine and a lot cheaper.
Edited 2/3/2009 8:01 am ET by RickL
>cheeperCould be, could be. I use so little I never compared. Just got turned on to this prop.It just shows to goya what a person can learn on this Knots. Thanks.roc
You need to look into silver-soldering or brazing which are typicaly done with a torch. Neither is particularly difficult, but not quite as simple as soldering wires together. The biggest difference is in the strength of the joint.
Verne
If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there to cut it up and make something with it . . . what a waste!
Thanks to all who wrote me with advice. What I am trying to do is attach some brass tabs to the inside of a brass rim on an antique oak school clock (the tabs hold the glass in the clock door). Also need to repair the brass latch that holds the door closed. The brass rim is very thin, .035 " (about 1/32") .
I bought a medium duty soldering gun at Sears today with dual power, 150W / 240W. When trying to practise on some brass scraps, using either power setting and several types of different acid and resin solders, the solder just goes up in smoke (evaporates) leaving only a tiny pin-head size drop on the metal that is very flimsy and easyly flicked away with a fingernail. The brass is clean, the soldering tip has been tinned with solder according to the instructions and I have tried several techniques but no luck. I also tried on copper and steel but still no luck, solder still just smokes away, evaporating.
As someone suggested, I may need to buy a jewelers torch and learn how to braze, but I am determined to make this gun work if it will, before I take it back.
Also thanks to the person who suggested the book on metalworking techniques, I will lok for it.
Any further advice on what I may be doing wrong? Thanks, Gary
Why would you take the gun back? It's not defective. It is now used but not defective. It cannot be sold as new. Why would you want the rest of us to pay for your learning curve? Would you buy a suit and wear it for a job interview you were not qualified for and then return the suit when you did not get the job?
Sounds like you should have rented the tool on the up and up.
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Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
Are you using a flux?
Edward
Edited 2/3/2009 3:42 am ET by ef
Sounds like you are using flux core solder. Use the resin one. Get some additional brush on resin flux for copper alloys. You can even buy it in a squeeze tube at Radio Shack.Clean the surfaces with fine steel wool. Even if the surfaces look clean ( or even are washed with soap and water ) it needs to have the surface oxide cleaned off with abrasive in this way. 600 grit sand paper would be even better but use carefully to not change appearance too much.I would recommend a larger soldering gun 250/450 watt. Be sure the nuts that hold the tip to the gun are tight. You may need to retighten them a couple of times on a new gun to get the most out of it.The problem is holding everything in place while you press the gun against the parts. To repeat . . . A flame is a better way to go.PS: The "evaporated" stuff is not solder it is flux. The thing that is left that you are flicking off with your finger nail is the solder. It is a bead because the work is not getting hot enough to melt it and or the surface is oxidized and there is too much surface tension for the bead to flow out flat. The gun is probably not hot enough to get the work hot enough to melt the solder.We are trying to tell you that. The gun is probably not hot enough to get the work hot enough to melt the solder.Just melting the solder off the coil of solder with the gun tip is not the point. The point is getting the work so hot that when you touch the solder wire to the work that it melts against the work and flows.Practice getting the solder to melt and flow out on just one component before attempting to join two parts together. You will get some smoke and evaporating of the flux but keep holding the gun on until this stops and the FLUX flows. Then the solder will melt later and flow. The acid will be useless for brass. The part of that that is evaporating is water. Use the flux that is like brown greese. That is the resin flux.The resin flux must be on the metal before you heat it to protect the surface from oxidizing WHILE YOU HEAT IT. The way to tell if the surfaces are hot enough to add the solder is the greasy brown flux will flow and get clear. Then touch the solder to the work. It should flow out and run around on the surface. Keep the heat on at this point for a bit.Sounds like you are giving up on applying heat way too early.Again. This gun may never be able to heat the parts enough to flow out the solder.May be best to practice on a piece of small electrical wire the size of a tooth pick until you get this pre heating and then solder flowing experience then move on to your actual brass pieces.
Edited 2/3/2009 5:16 am by roc
Not getting the metal hot enough is one of your problems or enough of the metal hot enough is another problem.
Wrong tool to heat is another. A propane or mapp gas torch is better. You need to heat the metal and apply the solder to the object. The soldering iron is for applying solder to wires.
Practice starts with learning to soft soft solder and work your way up to hard solder or Silver solder or silver brazing.
Exactly what solder are you using???? Are you aware of the temperature you need to make it flow???
Find a jewelry making class. You will learn more there than here.
http://www.phred.org/~josh/build/brazing.html
One other tip, on the brass tabs, be sure they are well cleaned and "tinned" prior to trying to solder them to the rim. If you have the tabs pre-tinned, then apply flux to the cleaned and tinned area on the rim, you may find that just the application of heat with the gun will 'git-er-dun"-at least that is how I repaired and installed the glass on the clock that I have ;-)
Pat
Thanks again for all the helpful info.
No, I have not used the paste flux, only the resin core flux; I have a can of flux and will try it also.
Also, at least 2 suggestions were that the brass was not geting hot enough; this may be the problem, in that I have been mainly using the lower (150W) setting, thinking the tip was already getting too hot, causing the solder to evaporate too quickly.
Also I have been trying to solder by intentionally placing the work on a metal surface, which I now can assume is wrong; I will try it by suspending it in air or on my wooden top workbench.
Also, I have been advised that the two pieces need to make a good contact with each other, I'll make sure of that.
Also, to the writer concerned with my attempt to drive Sears into bankruptcy by returning the used soldering gun: the salesperson assured me that if I wasn't satisfied with the gun after using it, I could return it within 30 days for a store credit. If she had been knowledgable about its use, I could have asked her for advice on using it on brass, and possibly bought the next bigger "Professional" model which I would have been glad to do for only another $20. However, she showed no knowledge of its use, in fact didn't even know which aisle the soldering equipment was located on. But, that's why I am not hesitant to spend money at Sears: they stand behind what they sell.
Man, am I glad for all the advice, I'm determined to learn how to do this, just like I taught myself woodworking so many years ago.
(I'm also so glad I decided to "practise" on some scrap instead of tackling the clock right at first.)
Thanks again to all, I'll let you know how my progress is going.
Gary
Okay, here's a follow-up reply and even more thanks for the help; I tried it again tonight and it worked! I made a good (but sloppy looking) bond between the 2 practice strips of brass. As several advised, I had not been applying the heat at the high setting (230W) for long enough. I also tried applying a film of paste flux before heating. I am going to practise some more before trying it on the clock.
Even though I'm convinced I can make this gun work, I intend on returning it to Sears and trading it up for the more powerful "Professional" model, which puts out, on max setting, 400W. The one page instruction sheet with my currect gun warns not to apply heat for more than 1 minute (with a cooling off time of 4 minutes), or damage to the tip and/or gun itself will result. I can imagine larger projects in the future which will need much longer than 1 minute of heat application.
Thanks again, I can always count on this site for good advice. Gary
If you are going to do hardware repair you will need to go with a torch and hard solder. You can use a propane torch for the stuff you are doing now with soft solder. You can also buy paste solder which has the flux built in and you apply the paste between the pieces to be joined and heat untill it flows. You can also put snippets of solder near the joints and apply the heat to the object, not the solder, and it will flow in the direction of the heat. Never heat the solder, heat the object. Solder will flow in the direction of the heat so you can pull the solder where you want it to be.
Look closely at the solders available for the properties best for the job. I don't see any mention of the solder you are using!
Edited 2/4/2009 12:14 pm ET by RickL
"Never heat the solder, heat the object. Solder will flow in the direction of the heat"
Great advise!
I always tell beginners to remember, cold goes to hot, and keep the solder cold.
Check out good hobby shops or hobby train shops. they often carry silver solder and small torches.
Something that people have not mentioned, is the size of the metal you are trying to solder. The greater the mass of metal the greater the heat source. Yes, you can solder using an iron, but the mass of the metal must be small enough to be heated by the iron. Metal distributes heat. Think of it this way, the melting point of silver solder ranges for 100 to 500; you need to heat your metal pieces until they are hotter than your solder. When you heat up the metal to be soldered, you must heat up the entire piece. Once the metal is heated, you touch the solder to the metal- not the heat source. A iron will only heat up a very local area. If your metal has any mass the heat that the iron is applying will be quickly dissipated.
Remember, you are heating up the metal - either with a torch or an iron- and then applying the solder.
To elaborate on your post about heating the entire piece of metal one should place the metal you are heating on a piece of fire brick other wise if you are placing the metal to be heated on a metal surface the heat will dissapate into the other metal further making it impossible to heat your piece to be soldered. A fire brick can be gotten from a wood stove supplier or pottery kiln supplier. A regular brick isn't suitable. A propane torch will do a better job than a soldering iron.
Yes. couldn't agree more. Further to the subtleties of soldering: The pieces that are being soldered or brazed should fit perfectly. Soldering, unlike oxy-acetylene will not fill gaps.
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=32148cat=1,43456,43469
A torch like this will be far better than a soldering iron for starting out with small stuff and soft solder.
Rick,
You are not the first person to suggest a torch instead of the (now) three different guns I have attempted, without success. I have been able to get the solder to melt, but it will not stick to the brass, it just gobs up and slides off, or is easily flicked off with a pencil. I have burned up probably over 12 inches of several diferent types of soft wire solder (both acid and rosin core) and been succesful getting less than 1/2" of solder to bond securely with the brass. I had to finally quit tonight, I was getting nauseated from the fumes.
I am going to look at the Lee Valley (or similar) torch. What solder do you recommend? ( Interesting: the instruction booklet that came with the Weller gun that I borrowed from a friend listed rosin flux solder to be used on brass, while the Sears instructions said to use acid core.)
Anyway, any recommendations to a torch I could buy locally and type of solder required would be appreciated. Sears was not helpful in offering any advice to whether these 2 different guns I bought there would work, and from experience, I don't think the big box stores will be any better.) Thanks, Gary
Either solder willl work. Sounds like you aren't getting it hot enough which the torch will take care of. Heat the metal not the solder. When you touch the solder to the hot metal it will flow toward the heat. It's a common mistake to try to heat the solder and by doing so it will never flow and the solder will bead up and not stick to anything. It's simpler than you can imagine. It should heat up in less than a minute and you will be done!!!
Sears and the stores do not have qualified people for technical info. A regular propane or mapp gas torch will work for most soft solder application. The little torch from Lee Valley will work for small thin brass. Did you clean the brass with a scotch brite before fluxing and soldering????? Dirty metal will not solder. I'm sure it was your technique and improper tool that is your problem. Any non-electrical solder will work if done correctly with the right torch. I still recommend a fire brick for a work surface.
You can look at the solder and fluxes lists at http://www.mcmaster.comDo you have a library with jewelry, plumbing books. Anything that has solder info would be good to read. Did you get the Rio Grande, Gesswein and http://www.metalifferrous.com catalogs. McCreights book on Jewelry making cover solder as well as most other similar books. Find someone who knows how to solder in your area. 5 minutes of instuction is worth hours of self teaching. Everyone learns better with the right instruction. Some can work from books but others needs hands on.
Edited 2/5/2009 7:56 am ET by RickL
Edited 2/5/2009 8:05 am ET by RickL
Haven't heard back how the solder thing went. I was watching TV with the sound off waiting for another show to come on and here is this person soldering away with a large soldering iron. She was doing stained glass. It made me think of you and your repair work.
The soldering iron was quite large and had a temperature control box sitting on the work bench. Could be just what you need. Anyway you may want to look into a stained glass supply place for the soldering stuff you are looking for.
roc
Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
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