Replies

1. 
   ring | Apr 28, 2008 07:59am | #1

   Roger,

   I graduated to sliders about 15 years ago, but that doesn't mean that I'm able to give a balanced overview of the issues. Still, from my perspective:

   It depends mostly on what kind of work you will be doing. I know that this is often hard to predict years ahead, but it's still the major factor you need to consider.

   The lack of dado option can be annoying, but you can work around it. For me, it's never more than an occasional demand, not something I need every day or every week. Altendorf saws can take a dado up to 15mm thick. There is an Altendorf model made in China which is in your price range and it's not a bad machine, but definitely lower class than the regular line. I have an SCMI slider that will take dado up to 8mm only. In general, I just find another way if the need arises.

   If you're going to cut melamine sheets, or plywood covered with laminates, or sheets with veneer on 2 sides, you absolutely should have the scoring blade. Some people claim they get no tearout with a perfect 80T blade, but in my experience it's not a real option to work sheet goods without a scorer. Even the best new blade isn't so perfect after you've cut 20 sheets of HPL.

   Length of carriage travel - I regularly rip 10' boards on the saw, so I use that 10' of travel every day. For many purposes, you can glue up panels right from the saw, without a joiner, so make sure you can take advantage of that. I regularly glue up tabletops and such right from the saw.

   Electric vs. manual controls - Today's saws come with options for both setting and readout of all the controls: blade height, blade angle, fence positions. It makes life easier and speeds up work a bit, but for a 1-man shop it's money unneccesarily spent. Spend your dollars on substance, not luxury.

   I wouldn't recommend combo sets, unless you're so cramped for space that there's no option. When I retire in a few years I'll probably get a combo unit to put in the home shop. But for a business it's not economical in the long run, and irksome to have to change back and forth. If you took a survey of what goes on in my shop (mostly kitchen cabinets, 6 workers) - you'd see that the saw gets turned on and used for a different operation at least 30 times a day. Do the math.

   A final word on blade guards - the only type that's worth anything is an overarm guard. The guards that fit on the riving knife go in the trash pile really quick because they're just dumb and in the way. If you're not a cowboy, you'll get an overarm guard sooner or later. Why not get it as original equipment?

   I've had my SCMI slider for 10 years now. It gets a simple cleaning once a week, and it still cuts perfectly. Paid for itself long ago, but I really don't have any reason to get a new one. Best of luck with yours...

   David Ring

   http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e

2. 
   JerryPacMan | Apr 28, 2008 03:33pm | #2

   I have a Hammer B3 saw/shaper combo and I love it.  It is a well engineered machine ant the build quality out classes everything else in my shop by a wide margin. 

   I have the dado option but have not used it yet.  Felder/Hammer has an excellent dado head that uses replaceable carbide cutters but it is about $700.

   I would consider the saw/shaper combo as it only adds about $1500 to the machine.  You will not buy a quality tilting spindle shaper for anywhere near $1500.  The stand alone Hammer F3 shaper is about $5000.  I also have a Delta heavy duty shaper where I use my many 3/4" cutters, you cannot have too many shapers.  The Hammer has a 1" spindle with collars that allow the use of 1 1/4" and 30mm cutters. 

   I do not have the scoring option.  On the Hammer the scoring is belt driven off the main motor and from what I have read on the FOG (Felder Owners Group) it works very well.  The Felder 700 uses the same arrangement but a separate motor option is also available.    

    

   Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans .

   "Life is not a success only journey."  Dr. Phil

3. 
   brad805 | Apr 29, 2008 03:38am | #3

   I too have a B3 S/S.  If you have space and the dollars, a separate shaper is the way to go.  The combination is more cheaper, but you sacrifice some table space. I will say the slider is nice for making tenons, and shapers equipped with a sliding table are very expensive as they are usually top of the line models.  I would stay away from the General only because this is new for them and they dont have the years experience.  Stick with a tried and true european sliders.  They have many nice safety features to comply with much stricker european requirements and none are a nuisance.  I am stuck with the riving knife guard and agree with David that it is a not that handy.  In the felder line you might want to look at the 500 series in your price range.  The hammer line is not equipped with the F-rail (look at the outside edge of the 500 vs hammer) and that is nice for adding short fences or parallel guides for narrow stock.  Take a look at the accessories on the Felder site to get an idea of what you might like down the road.  If you like dados, the felder or hammer cutter heads are great.  I have the hammer cutter.  It leaves clean crisp square cuts and they have removable side cutters to minimize chipping.  All it is is a 30mm bore shaper cutter head.  Dont discount Minimax and by all means go test out the saws.  One mistake I made was ordering from a catalog.  Do you know about the felder online group and minimax groups on yahoo?  If not, might want to join and ask some questions.  Probably will find someone close.  You also might want to watch the woodweb classifieds as 10ft sliders are posted regularily.  I have seen Altendorfs F-45's listed in your price range and many have looked fairly clean. 

   Brad

1. 
   ramjet264 | Apr 29, 2008 04:44am | #4

   Thankyou for the info.  I do not know about the users group's.  Can you tell me how to find them??  I would love to get some hands on time on some of these saws.  I know one gent that has the Hammer K3.  He has offered to let me use the saw, but he is a 4 hour drive south in Salem,OR.

    

   V/R

   Roger

1. 
   brad805 | Apr 29, 2008 05:41am | #6

   The trip is worth it or at least get to the stores near you.  The new felder catalog is great for outlining the options for each machine.  I have only had mine since january and it takes a little getting used to.

   Couple other things to ponder.  The hammer does not have the remote start option, and in a production shop setting you may want that.  Many have added remote starts, but the Felder versions can be equipped direct from the factory with either a start on the slider, or an extendable on/off.  Multiple locking positions on the slider would be nice too if I were using it all day long, as the hammer only has one at the middle.  If you are tired from working all day, fighting to load sheets on a table that is designed to roll can be fun.  Felder has a great video online too you might want to download. 

   I dont know too much about the minmax saws, but from everything I have read they are definately in the same league as felder and within your price range.  If you wanted to drop $30 - $60k, then you need a martin.

   The felder online group is below and the minimax site is also hosted on the yahoo site, so once you are at the yahoo site you search for the correct address for it.

   http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/felder-woodworking/

   If you do not check the woodweb, do so (http://www.woodweb.com) there are many very informative discussions from those in the business.

   Brad

1. 
   ramjet264 | Apr 29, 2008 06:22am | #7

   Thank you so much for the wepage.

   V/R

   Roger

4. 
   giametti | Apr 29, 2008 04:54am | #5

   A slider is the way to go.
   Check out the models by MiniMax as well. I have a MM full combo, which I love. If you are looking at the tool for your own use, the shaper would be a good option. It gives you a shaper with a first rate sliding table. When you've coped a pile of door rails using the slider, you'll not want to go back. But the previous poster is right, that a combo machine won't work in a larger shop when more than one person needs the tool.

   Jim Eddy

   http://www.jameseddywoodworks.com