so what is the best (except kapex) sliding miter saw, am i better off w/ a 12″ of 10″
I’m looking for: accurate, no blade wobble, capacity, suitable for Fine woodworking.
I hope this to be my last saw (for at least a while)
one specific saw i have my eye on is the reconditioned Rdgid 12″ slider ZRMS1290LZA for $299
I’m just sayin’
Replies
Andy, I think you know from our previous conversation that I strongly recommend a 12" saw. If you want supreme accuracy, chances are you'll have to pay for it. Hopefully, you'll get some feedback on that Ridgid saw in that respect.
When it does arrive, and you're ready to tune it up, you might want to try these test cuts to verify what you think is square (or 45*) really is.
I have had the Hitachi 10 inch CF10S for about 4 years it is excellent
I do not know about the Rigid it is not sold in this country. Depending what you want to cut do you need a 12" saw and if you have to move it around a 10" is great at the end of the day you get what you pay for.
You can make it fool proof but not idiot proof
Recently I had the opportunity to be in a store that had several different brands and models on display side by side. Wow! what a difference in size!!! Te makita had the smallest footprint and if memory serves me right the new Milwaukie were monsters! So if room in the shop is consideration you would be wise to go look at theses sliders side by side and measure the amount of space needed to make them function well.
I have used the bosch 12",makita 10",hitachi 12', and a variety of other non scms's. I am a general contractor and have owed the Dewalt 708 12" scms for about 7 years or more. I use it with the dewalt stand. transport it from job to job and in and out of my shop. It is the best saw out there. I even know quys that say its better than the new model. I can tell you things i like and dont like about all the other saw but I wont bore you with that. The dewalt is very accurate and adjustable,extremley durable,(i havent even had to replace the brushes yet) and all the parts are readily available at ereplacementparts.com. My next choice would be the Makita 10" just becuase of how smooth it operates. But I have seen many that dont look nearly as good as mine anymore.
Hitachi MAKES GOOD TOOLS Period!
Nobody is Idiot Proof!
I like my Makita LS1013.
Andy,
While I cant tell you how there slider is I do have ridgeds 12" compound miter saw and I love it. After I got it only thing I wish I had done was go with the slider but the pocket book was what stopped me.
So personally if you can get the slider for the price you said I would say go for it.
Jim
Edited 10/17/2008 5:59 am by jtravnick
Dear Andy,
I am a contractor and we use these things everyday. Our experience has dictated the following:
1) A 10" saw will take care of 95% of our needs. That being said, if it for the shop, I would consider a 12".
2) All of the saws have some lateral flex at full extension. Kapex included.
3) Hitachis are the standard around here with a smattering of Makitas and Bosch's thrown in.
4) I find that a slide saw is a highly personal choice. One has to like its feel.
5) My three complaints about the Makita are as follows:
A) Dust collection is poor.
B) The saw has a coil spring that returns the head to the upright position. This spring is prone to clogging with dust.
C) The pitch of the motor (noise) just hits me the wrong way.
6) Positives about Makita:
A) The stock blades are usually excellent.
B) They don't die....... ever.
C. The slide is hands down the smoothest of the bunch. That includes the Kapex.
7) Bosch: Not much experience, but the few complaints that I have heard are around blade deflection.
8) Ridgid: I agree that it seems good, but I swore off buying tools from HD years ago, so I would rule it out.
9) Dewalt: See Ridgid.
Overall, I would say that blade choice is a critical element in getting proper performance. Skimp here and the best saw won't help you. We use Freud Red blades exclusively.
Good shopping.
Best,
John
Another vote here for the Makita LS1013. I've had mine for close to ten years now and it is still going strong and cutting true. I might add that this has been a jobsite saw it's whole life and has been dropped, bounced around in the back of a pick-up, set up in the rain, used for rough framing, etc...I do agree with Jmartinsky about sliding saws being a personal choice, It's a lot about what you get used to using. And that the key to good cuts is in the blade (CMT for me).Good luck,Matt
http://www.oldgreenwoodworking.com
I've got my eye on the new Dewalt DW717 10" SCMS as a replacement for a 12" non-sliding saw. It significantly exceeds the capacity of my current saw and can use table saw blades. It seems to be functionally equivalent to the new Festool 10" SCMS at a much lower price, plus the Festool saw can't use table saw blades. Are there any opinions about the Dewalt saw?
I have had a 12" Dewalt slider for about 7 years and bench recess mounted,
have used the Makita on a full hose of Hickory trim,
but like the 12" Ridgid even Better and would be my choice if I needed one.Of course, a sharp quality blade on any of the 3 would make them better than a so-so blade on the others.299 for the reconditioned Ridgid seems like a pretty decent deal.
"...plus the Festool saw can't use table saw blades." You don't want to slap just any ol' table saw blade onto an SCMS. As with a radial arm saw, a negative hook will give you the safest and cleanest cut. My used Makita SCMS came with a Forrest Chopmaster and it's a realllllly nice blade. I've pitted my Freud 50-tooth combo blade against a Chopmaster in a blade-challenge a few years ago, it held it's own quite well (on a standard, not sliding, CMS), so I wouldn't hesitate to buy a Freud blade designed for an SCMS.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 10/18/2008 9:55 pm by forestgirl
Exercise caution using tablesaw blades on a miter saw. One of the most catastrophic tool failures of any I have seen was on a 10-inch scms that an idiot put a rip blade on.
It caught the work piece with enough energy to break the back fence off the saw. Amazingly the idiot was unhurt.
Miter saws should only be used with proper blades with negative hook angles. These blades will work for cross cutting on a table saw.
Amen
"Miter saws should only be used with proper blades with negative hook angles"
Is this as important if it is not a sliding model?
It is dangerous on both of them. A blade with a high hook angle can catch the wood and lift it up, causing the miter saw version of kick back.
On a slider it will try to come up and back at you. The compound miter saw will "just" come up. Both of them do this while throwing the work piece up and into the fence.
If your hand happens to be on the work piece, any where near the blade, your hand can be in there too.
As dangerous as the old style radial arm saws might be, I think the miter saws are more dangerous.
Dear Jigs,
I'm going to disagree about the new miter saws being more dangerous that the radial arm saws. I've used them both commercially and I have to say the miter saws are the more forgiving of the two. That includes sliders. We regularly use the sliders for cuts that I am sure are not recommended. When they do try to bite, it can almost always be traced to improper technique or improper blade. I have had pieces explode on the slide saws with no harm done other a piece of the saw might be missing.
As to the radial arm saw. I think that this may be a case of bigger is better. I have never heard of anyone having a problem with the large, commercial radial arm saws, but I remember working years ago with small, portable units that were lethal. Ryobi and Craftsman to name a few. Truly scary. The 10" Makita miter saw was a huge improvement, followed by the 8 1/2" Hitachi slide saw, that seemed like a dream at the time. It is still a good saw today.
Stick with the slide saw. With the correct blade they are safe.Best,JohnEdited 10/21/2008 11:18 pm ET by Jmartinsky
Edited 10/22/2008 11:23 am ET by Jmartinsky
Have to disagree with Jigs about needing a negative hook angle on a standard CMS. Take for instance the Freud stable of blades. The only crosscutting blade with a negative hook in the chart I keep handy is designated for sliding CMS. The blades that have been recommended to me by a Freud representative for a 12" Bosch CMS have not been negative hook. Have to check, but I think they're 10-degree hooks. There are other factors besides hook angle to factor in here, and Charles-from-Freud responded to a thread awhile back explaining it all. Will see if I can find it and give you the link.
A lower hook angle does reducing "self feeding" but this is less of a problem on a standard CMS, assuming you're using standard safety precautions (holding stock firmly/clamping; not putting small pieces of stock where they can get you in trouble, etc.). If you restricted yourself to negative hook angles on a standard CMS, you'd have few choices indeed in terms of tooth configuration, #teeth, etc.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 10/21/2008 11:50 pm by forestgirl
Edited 10/22/2008 11:21 pm by forestgirl
How can you disagree with a question? I think you are responding to the quote. It does show there are two opposing views though. To me your reasoning makes more sense but I've not had an accident with either.
Sorry, Tinkerer, brain freeze there. Meant to say "disagree with Jigs" not with you! I was responding to your question. Geeeeez, need some sleep or Ginseng or something.
Can't find the thread where Charles pitched in on this misconception that regular miter saws need a negative hook. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Might this be it? http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=30182.18
................................................
Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
Hi, Don. That's not the one I was thinking about, but it sure is a good post to have bookmarked. I can't remember for sure if it was here or at WWA that someone was going on about negative hook angles for standard CMS's and there was an ensuing conversation.
I've gotta check the other two blades I have, but I think they're 10-degree. Lowish, but not negative.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Forty lashes with a wet noodle - after that you are forgiven. I thought I made a mistake once but after considering a while I discovered I was right all along. I keep learning. Maybe eventually, I can cut a board in half.
Ahhhh, now I can go to sleep for the evening with no worries (except the wet noodle scars). All is well.......forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Andy, I have the DeWalt 12" SCMS with a Forrest Chopmaster Blade and I really like it. This is just for woodworking and not contracting as I have it bolted to a wood cabinet. It cut OK with the original blade, I thought, but when I put the Forrest blade on it.... WOW!!! The cuts are super slick. They look like I used a sharp plane blade on a shooting board to cut the end grain. My came from HD with a free 15ga nailer thrown in. Not as cheap a price as your Ridgid. Hope this helps.
Bruce
Makita 10" is all you'll ever need...really nice saw...just had a price drop on 'em at the orange box...thata the 10" slider, don't know the number...JImmy
Edited 10/20/2008 4:19 pm ET by Jimmy
I had a Bosch 10" 3915 for about 6 years. It was an excellent saw. Rigid and precise. No complaints.
I decided to upgrade last year when Bosch came out with their new up-front control saws. I bought the 12" 5412L. The saw was very sloppy, would not hold bevel settings, had significant runout and the blade was not coplanar with the travel of the slides. The latter is a huge issue, as it disallows a smooth cut since the blade is not cutting in a flat plane with the end of the board, but rather dragging its leading or trailing edge during the cut, usually resulting in burning. The miter detent selector was rather poorly made and had at least 1 degree of +/- slop without tightening the knob. That's huge.
So I returned the saw for the 10" version (4410L) and was faced with similar problems. One thing I noticed right away with the 12" saw was much greater deflection and blade wobble. And those two inches don't gain you any crosscut capacity, only depth of cut. For furniture making that's a minor sacrifice for added accuracy vs. a 10" saw. I would not recommend a 12" saw for fine furniture making. The 10" saw had the problem of the blade being out-of-alignment with the travel of the slides. This caused burning and binding on many cuts. And there is no way to adjust this. There is also a small plate of metal that the miter lock knob presses against to set the table in place for miter cuts. After a couple months of use, it bent the plate and wedged itself right into the metal casting. I had to dismantle the saw to discover the problem. I sent the saw back to Bosch and they refunded my money.
The main feature that I did like with the 4410L was the dust collection. It has a rather large shroud at the back of the blade and a large diameter pick up at the back of the saw. I installed a rubber deflector, much like the Kapex, on the saw and I got excellent results.
Since then I've purchased Bosch's newest slide miter saw, the 4405. This is by far the closest to the 3915. It's very solidly built, cuts accurately, and holds settings very well. It's also much SIMPLER than the other two saws. It does have up front bevel lock, but the mechanism is different than on the 4410L or 5412L, and the detents that stop the bevel settings are cast into the frame of the saw and supported by two large stop bolts. The other saws used a very frustrating, idiosyncratic, inaccurate, and wimpy stop system with very small set screws. It's a horrible system. The 4405 only bevels one way, but that's not an issue for a furniture maker. The dual bevel is great for crown moulding, but I rarely run into a situation in the shop where I'd really want it. The miter detent bar is also much more robust on the 4405, and doesn't budge when clicked into one of the detents. The dust collection shroud is very large and features a rubber deflector that is effective, although it could be bit more rigid. It would be easy to replace with a thicker material. I'm very satisfied with this saw. Hope this helps.
Edited 10/20/2008 7:03 pm ET by rajikhalaf
I have the Rigid 12". I like it fine. As far as 90 and 45 degree cuts goes it is fine. The laser is ... well less than accurate. I guess I don't often rely on it for really accurate cuts. I tend to use the table saw, shooting board and planes. Now some of the wizard finish carpenters I have seen work can do more with their scms than I could ever do (and faster). If I were trying to do their work i would get a different saw. For me it is not a big deal if the saw is average. I also tend to agree with the guy that thought less of Home Depot. I try to not buy anything there because of the horrible service I have had in the past.
I also worked with bosch10"n12" dewalt 10"n12" and makita's10". I bought a makita712" sliding mitersaw and find that it works the best of them all. It's light,accurate,and because of the blade size, no wobble, and has the same cross cut (reach) as my 12"dewalt,it's all I've been using for the last year.Give it a look,just go on makita's web site.
Andy,
Just a bit more information to further confuse you: generally speaking, a 12" miter saw will crosscut 8" at 90*/90*. A sliding miter saw will cut 12". Most of the material I crosscut is either within the capacity of a 12" miter saw or beyond the capacity of a slider. So I use a 12" non-sliding miter saw for the majority of cuts and a crosscut sled/miter gauge for everything else. It isn't often that I use the full cutting depth of the 12" saw, but when I do, I sure am glad I have it. If you never have to crosscut 4" thick stock, you may not need a 12" saw.
Before you buy a saw, have a feel of it. Some saws have vertical handles (like the Kapex) which I can not stand. The springs on some saws are rediculously strong. Play with the miter and bevel adjustments. Rotating the table will likely be the most common adjustment you do. I've adjusted the bevel on my saw twice in two years.
Chris @ www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
I've had a Hitachi C10FSH 10" for about four years now. I love it; it's extremely accurate. Only problem I've had is that the laser burned out and had to be replaced (about 2 years ago).
Only bad thing I can say about it is that the dust collection isn't very effective - so I got the FastCap Chop Shop hood, which works beautifully... catches about 95% of the dust.
--------------------------
If it's not fun, you're not doing it right.
Ross Henton
Well...alot of it has to do with the blade that you choose. I recommend the forrest or the cmt if you want it to last a while and resist the warble that the 12 inch blades are notorious for.
my first choice would be the makita 10 inch....bearings are top notch, minimal warble, low cost, and lightweight.
second choice would be the festool 10 inch kapex, all of the above features but adds some cool micro adjustments.
third choice is the new 12 inch milwaulki....BEAUTIFUL!
and ALWAYS buy from HOME DEPOT.....they are far superior to lowes or anyone else as far as keeping things in stock..
I personally the new ridgid 12" non-slide because of it's vertical fence hight and cutting capacity.
but I'd always use handtools if I wasn't in a hurry. MUCH MORE ACCURATE.
Dear Mark,
I applaud you for bringing up a good point: 12" sliders can have some "warble" as you put it, although I have found that Hitachi and Makita seem to be less prone to it. I will disagree with you about purchasing from HD or even Lowes. There have been several threads on this forum about why the tools seem o fail from those distributers. The theories range from handling procedures to the idea that some manufacturers build a separate line for the "big box" stores. Whatever the reason is, my experience has been that tools bought from HD, in particular, have a shorter lifespan than those purchased elsewhere, say Tools Plus or Amazon. Best,John
Oh man, I'd love to see a business plan that explains how a manufacturer could afford to have separate manufacturing for sub-par tools to be sold to a big box store. That's hysterically funny, what do these people smoke?!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I think it comes down to if you see it repeated often enough, it becomes the "truth". No question and no sources needed. LOL
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
Isn't the usual story that if you look at the model number
it will be the same but with one extra letter?
Something like- BL-123
While HD's will be- BL-123a Never worried me enough to research it but I'm sure
someone around here has...
The model number is changed so someone can't buy it at Costco and return it to HD for more money.Len
"You cannot antagonize and influence at the same time. " J. S. Knox
Ah, another urban legend dies...
Unless someone come out with an accurate source to the contrary. Which I doubt will happen.Whew, nice to put that one to bed.Cheers,Peter
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
I'm a trim carpenter of 15 years who uses these saws all day every day. I judge a saw on 2 factors: Accuracy of the gauges and quality of the cut. I have used several different brands of saws and hands down the 10" Hitachi is the best. If you slap a 80 tooth Forest Chopmaster on it, there isn't a saw on the market that can out cut it. My Hitachi is about 5 five years old, been dropped several times, is being held together w/ duct tape, and it still cuts like the day I bought it.
All that being said, for basic shop work on a part time basis most of the saws out there would be ok. The most important thing is to put on a good quality 80 tooth blade.
In this area (NE Ohio) I can get into the setup listed above for around 600$ (Hitachi 10" 460$; Forest Chopmaster 129$)
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