I’m a newcomer. Over the past few months I’ve gotten into designing, and repairing furniture. I’m also trying to learn as many building skills as I can.
My goal, a lot further down the line, is to buy and restore an old house in upstate new york or maybe build a simple green home from scratch. I know these are really ambitious goals for someone with my level of experience.
I guess my question is: Can someone in my position who has a 9 to 5 job learn the skills, on the side ,to build a modest house. How this crazy is this?
Do you have to be an architect to pull something of this order off? Or can you be a self-taught builder? Considering that i have to work full-time, how can I accelerate my learning curve? If someone can recommend books, websites or even a 6 month program that teaches this sort of stuff in the northeast, I would be much appreciative.
best,
g
Replies
http://www.yestermorrow.org They have programs that, from what I read, are exactly what you may be looking for.
John White, who posts here often is an instructor there.
Edited 2/19/2008 8:40 pm ET by SteveSchoene
g,
About 25 years ago I had the same aspirations. Bought the proverbial This Old House and never looked back. It was a lot of hard work, many mistakes made, but all in all it was great! I am/was self taught; just jumped right in and with the help of my best friend (wife), we made a respectable home from basically a shack. If I can do it anyone can.
Just remember one thing: Any house more than 5 years old ain't square. If you construct a building that's square today, it ain't gonna stay that way very long. Ya have ta deal with it.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Thanks for your response.Are you a pro contractor by chance? I'm sort of in the dark about this stuff, but an very eager to learn.best,
g
G,
Subscribe to Fine Homebuilding - the Mag and their Online Mag - anything you want, need to know will be found there, and it's all written by Pros.
g,
Nope, not a pro contractor, but a self learned DIYer for the most part. I watched/consumed every TOH episode on TV. Those years were the TOH formative years and I learned a lot. Might want to subscribe to the mag. I received in the mail a subscription offer for $10 for a year!
Mike H. has pretty much hit the nail on the head, so to speak. His word are all true and then some I'm sure.
As for learning how to do it I don't think you will find the authoritative source for everything. I for one can sit in a classrom and listen to every word but until you put hammer/saw to wood I quickly find that I know nothing. As I said earlier, that house just ain't gonna be square.
Another thing I learned is that I can't/didn't devote my entire existence to a project. You really NEED to take a break no and then. I too worked a 9-5 while remodeling our house and then came home and worked on the house till dark, sometimes later. All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy. For the better part of 13 years vacation was working on the house.
If you have to live in the same space as you are working you quickly learn to do it in sections that you can completely block off from your living area. Believe me, tearing apart a room that has horse hair plaster and laths on the walls is a MESS! It gets into everything no matter what you do.
We planned the kitchen remodel for the summer as we knew we wouldn't be able to use much of the existing one. In our case we moved the kitchen from one end of the house to the other which helped a lot.
A word of caution though. Remodeling old houses can have it good times and it is easy, at least for us, to actually come to enjoy it!
Oh, and another thing, we're in progress on TOH #2.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
It's do-able, but you really have to be a bit "crazy", and if you're married, you have to have a wife and family who are a bit "crazy" too.
You might want to start out renovating, paying attention to how things were put together while you are pulling them apart. (Tho' this is a bit problematic -- in many cases, things were put together wrong, so you don't want to copy that.) Read a LOT. Follow the Breaktime forum. Get a set of Taunton's Code Check books to get a basic feel for the codes. Subscribe to, and read cover to cover, Fine Homebuilding, Journal of Light Construction, etc., etc. Did I say "read a lot"?
Then, plan on spending pretty much ALL your time that you are not working at your 9-5 job doing construction. And if you live in your project house, plan to spend literally years living in the equivalent of a pretty messy, dusty barn. Oh, and have a bunch of cash to sink into your projects. (Banks are understandable squeamish about lending to DIYers for projects like building houses.)
My wife and I built a small addition to our house last year -- 12'X12', 3-story -- and enlarged a porch. That project took us a bit over a year, with the two of us working 40+ hours a week on the project for much of the time in addition to our "regular" jobs, and we didn't do ANYTHING else for the year.
We enjoyed it. Few other folks I know would have. Maybe you would, but be careful about starting something like this if you're not absolutely sure you can see it through. (Reminds me of folks who think they can run a marathon without training for it. NOT GONNA HAPPEN!) It can spell financial disaster if you have to abandon a large project because it gets to be too much for you.
So, start small, get some experience (maybe start by renovating a kitchen or bath?), see if you really enjoy the work and can tolerate the crap, and have fun. If it works for you, then by all means, go for the big one.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Can someone in my position who has a 9 to 5 job learn the skills, on the side ,to build a modest house.
Yes. Once upon a time, many (most?) people built their own houses.
How this crazy is this?
Very
About 35 years ago, with more enthusiasm than brains, I got it into my head that any dope could build a house. While that turned out to be true, for this dope at least, it took a long time. It's easier to build a new house, in that you will be dealing with right angles and a level. Old houses are never square, plumb or level and everything requires some sort of compromise between appearance and function.
Although I no longer own it, the house hasn't fallen down yet.
If you do it, you won't be sorry, but it is essential that your spouse/partner be totally committed as well.
It can be done, I'am proof. My biggest problem was the Bank! Even with 80% down. You want to do what? Have you ever built a house? They asked! I sub let the basement block work and septic. The rest I did myself and worked full time on a rotating shift. Good prints, tons of common sense, and a very good working relationship with the bldg, elec and plumbing inspectors is a must. It took me 1 1/2 years to complete and very little sleep. But the Bank will be your biggest headache. Getting drafts on my 80% was even tough. I've since built a 24x30 Cape Cod and made it my shop, NO BANK.
Even learned to cut my own rafters, no trusses in either bldg. I should have subbed out the drywall, that took me the longest and hated it, I mudded and taped and the wife sanded most of it out every time ;-(
Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
G,
If the way a house is constructed makes sense to you, (i.e. you can look at a roofs worth of rafters and understand what gravity is trying to do and what the builder is doing to stop gravity from doing what he doesn't want it to do) then it shouldn't be too hard to learn how to build a house. If it all looks random and nonsensical to you then you may have a much bumpier road to travel.
I started building houses at 22 with no experience and within 3 months something clicked in my head and all of a sudden the whole house made sense to me. I still had plenty to learn, but it was filling in details. The major hurdle was cleared.
Rob
Hay, where in upstate are you?
I live outside of Oneanta.
Most everyone I know around here to some extent or another is building/restoring their house.
It's hard and will take much longer than you will wish, but that's what life is all about.
hi,
Thanks for the response. i live in brooklyn, but I spend my last two summers upstate. I love it there. I was first in a small town called Linlithgo and then Snyderville, which are both little towns outside Hudson. Looks like an hour's ride to Oneonta. Real estate by Hudson is grossly expensive and the taxes are very high. Someone told me that the Catskill area is worth checking into and also a town called Calicoon? New Jersey has some nice places too. Are you a pro-contractor? Or are you self taught. I've been reading about SIP houses. Those seem interesting because they're fuel efficient and less labor intensive than truly starting from scratch. I think you can get an energy star rated one as well.
best,
g
Hudson is a little- how to say it?
More city influenced. Both positively and negatively. More culture and cultured people.
The Catskills are a poor and rural area really. If you want to be alone or spend your life with your family ( and a small group of very good friends) then it's perfect.
Most everyone who is here has chosen to be here, which means excepting not having the thing other places have to offer-Money, entertainment, and conveniences.
I love it and will always call it home. p.s.
I'm a builder (in response to your question). Carpenter, woodworker and second generation stone mason.
GLASTARZA,
I can in fact I've done it.. I'd never built a home previous. l took on a extremely tough version with only a tiny budget..
You can see pictures of my place if you enter 34543.3& 37758.1 with 34866.5.
It's a big double timberframe built at a budget that is ectremely modest.
Originally my wife and two daughters were to help me but they wimped out and I was forced to hire some guys.
IF my wife and two daughters would have done wht they said they would I could have easily saved $100,000 in labor costs and if I'd simplified my plans I would have saved another $150,000
PLus finished it years sooner..
I did all this nights and weekends and vactions..
I talked another friend into buiding with my approach and he built his house for about $100,000 It's a 3300 sq.ft. house that is remarkably durable and extremely interesting..
His brother helped him doing the brick work and another brother did all the elctrical work..
wow! amazing place and huge job.
you must've had a lot of contracting experience before you took on this project???
did you draw up the plans yourself, or did you have an architect do them for you?
best,
g
Glastrarza,
No experiance but I did stay at a Holliday inn express one night <grin> Sorry, foolish bit of whimsy.
Actaully I did a few minor projects in the past (roof repair and reshingling.. replaced some doors etc.. but I never had any real experiance. The plans were more like sketches drawn up with demensions on them. Nothing any architect would ever admit to. The city told me where I could build and I simply filled in the blanks..
The process is remarkably simple once you think thru the process.. I mean you are building a square and modifing it..
With absolutely minimal experiance you could duplicate it.. if you do it with the right materials..
I would look at building with ICF's. That stands for insulated concrete forms. What they are is big foam leggo blocks that you put together and pour concrete into them. they go together very easy and if you pick a good brand that has a lot of support behind it they do most of the technical stuff for you. They are also fully code approved which ends hassles with building inspectors.
Here's information on ICF's they are extremely efficent and durable but very easy to build with for a do-it-yourselfer.. I mean your six year old daughter can carry one (they weigh about two pounds when empty) it's basically a process of line them up and glue them together.. Then put in the rebar and start another row.. about six rows later the basement is done.. so you put the bracing in place which has a walkway built into it and call the cement company.. You need three relatively strong people at this point.. One to guide the cement hose, one to run the stinger ( a big vibrator) and one to switch places with the other if they should get tired.
(I've skipped a whole bunch of small details here to keep the idea simple for you but please ask and I'll explain every single detail to you)
Once the basement foundation is in place you then build the first story basically the same only now you can use thinner 6 inch foam block instead of 12 inch. (there are a few exceptions but let the experts tell you where they would have to be)... When you come to places where you want doors and windows you will have to make wooden bucks. They are extremely simple to make. I'll go into minute detail if you'd like to know..
You pour the first story and then start on the second story. after the second story you close it all off with roof panels.. they should be SIP's for the best insulation. SIP stand's for structural insulated panels. Basically OSB, foam,&OSB
Now the real issue.. Costs.. If you do the labor yourself (with the aide of friends and family) and buy carefully you should be able to build about 2500 sq.ft. house for about $100,000. *
Now by buying carefully you will have to buy wood not at a lumberyard or a big box store but at a sawmill. (and not just any sawmill either) Shop carefully for forms but don't let price be your guilde.. let service and information determine who you buy from. It's foolish to buy from a company willing to sell slightly cheaper but don't provide you with the needed guidance..
* I've a friend I helped who did this and tore down an old house and replaced it with a new one of 3300 sq.ft. for just at $100,000. However the outside of his was all brick he had a brother who was a mason..
His house is somewhat like mine in that it has large timbers on the inside except instead of timberframed his is post and beam. (8 foot on center instead of 4 like mine)
He used Ash which is real cheap right now. for example a 9"x7"X9' ash beam sells nation wide for between 20&22 dollars..
It took him about two months to get the place enclosed for that period and a little more he lived in a travel trailer on the lot.. As soon as he got the plumbing hooked up and some electricity he moved back in (took him another two weeks ) while they slowly finished it off..
It's been two years now and the second story still isn't done (they don't have kids) but the final trim work is in process on the first floor.. . Once the outside was finished and landscape repaired he kind of eased off a bit because this is really tough to do when you have a full time job and come home and work another 6 hours or more every night plus 12 hours a day on the weekend..
Your wife has to be 100% behind you and don't plan on any time off because building permits do expire and neighbors will complaign if the outside isn't finished on time.. (usually one year).
Buying carefully means doors and windows the millwork portion of building requires a lot of shopping.. There are places which sell doors and windows at deep discounts from what the stores and lumberyards do.. name brands like Andersen, Marvin, and Pella etc.
But usually they are windows that were misordered by the contractor so you will seldom get two of the same size.. That's not a problem as long as you buy your windows before you put up the forms but that means you'll need to store them someplace. and that brings in the next issue..
storage!
To get the best price on wood you must buy from a sawmill (A special kind of sawmill) and once they saw the wood for you you have to bring it home and store it.. (actaully you sticker and strap it with a tarp on top) That will help dry it and bring it down to the normal range construction wood is at when it's being used for construction)
So at least a year before building you will need to store windows doors and wood on site. If you can't store it on site, you'll have the hassle of moving it all from wherever you can store it plus security and those sorts of issues..
Tools. Here's the really good news.. buy your tools on line and when you are finished you should be able to sell them for half of what you paid for them in the first place.. so put some money in your budget for tools but as you sell them off you can buy the whatever light fixture or trim piece you want.. By shopping carefully you might be able to buy tools that were only used by one home builder (like me ) and resell them for near what you paid for them..
Buy good brand name, well respected tools (ask, I'll share as will other here)
French,Thanks for your response. You whole project is really impressive. I appreciate the time you took to write all that.I read your profile and noticed that you are in marketing in minnesota.I work in advertising in new york city as an art director. It drives me nuts. One of the things I love about being in the wood shop is the opportunity to see things actually being made as opposed to being tested and talked about for months. I guess that's why it's said that woodworking is therapeutic!best,
G
GLASTARZA
That's one of the things that allowed me to work as diligently as I did on the house.. The frustration of selling could be relieved by the progress made on the house..
Bad day at work motivated me to have a good day building.. and a good day of building always cheered me up so I came back to work positive and ready to tackle the next hurdle..
I did hire some people along the way but I was extremely careful not to hire experianced carpenters.. I took preachers and theatre lighting directers, math teachers etc. with absolutely no prior experiance and showed them what I wanted them to do. Since it was all new to them I had no arguements about technique or methods..
I was absolutely a manic with regard to safety.. If I was nervious doing it, I wouldn't let them touch it (and remember I had no real experiance) Oh most of them were decades younger than I was so they could timbermonkey a lot faster and easier than I could. You'd never guess a week earlier they'd never done anything like that! I had a standing policy of reminding them if they had any question to stop me and ask. That I didn't assume they knew anything. I had the proper harness, safety equipment, and etc.. Luckily nobody ever got hurt. Well except me <grin> Oh was I ever stiff and sore some mornings. Old men shouldn't timbermonkey!
Since it was all new to them they came at it with vigor and excitement.. they weren't used to the slam bang get'er up method most builders use to make a profit.. Instead I instilled in them a sense of craft and doing the job right..
They worked well because I paid above grunt level wages. I didn't whine or complain if other things got them late. Plus I figured out what they were capable of doing on their own without supervision and let them do it if I was delayed..
The hardest part for me was to listen to others suggestions and appreciate it if they came up with good ones.. I tend to micro manage things and letting go was really hard to do.. however I quickly showed them that I wasn't an ego maniac and could share the fun and whatever glory we enjoyed in doing it..
One final trick I used with great success was feed 'em. They'd show up saturday/sunday morning I had had rolls and juice etc.. Occasionally she-who-must-be-obeyed would cook breakfast for them.
Lunch was always my treat which meant we could sit together and discuss what needed to be done how to do it etc.. They always had plenty of highly caffinated sugary drinks.. and I was very carefull to note when they were lagging in the evening and send them home.. It didn't matter if it was 3:00 or 9:00 They started to drag I knew we'd reached the end of their day and more time would achieve little..
Oh some might say I mollycoddled them but looking back I don't remember ever getting less than their best performance from any of them.. (and since I'm so cheap I know I got great value from them)
Phase building is fine if your Zoning or Building department permit it. Some locals have very strict requirements to obtain an occupancy permit, and phase building is a no no. Also local codes can vary from area to area, especially electrical, plumbing and sanitary(septic/sewer). In my area clipped head framing nails are OK, down the road 10 miles you have to use Full round head. It all starts at your local Building Dept. I even had to get a flood permit ($50) even though the lot is high and dry with no chance for flooding, other than something of Biblical proportion.Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Mario Rodriguez remodeled an old home in upstate NY a number of years ago and wrote a book about it: View Image Traditional Woodwork: Adding Authentic Period Details to any Home
Mario Rodriguez
If it were me I'd want a fair amount of hands on experience before starting on a home for myself. Book learning is great--I perfer it in general--but you need to teach your body a few things, too, and to familiarize yourself firsthand with different materials that you will be using when you build your house. Any chance you could volunteer at a buddy's job a few hours on the weekends? Mabe even a stranger would take you on if you work for free. There's always the evenings for reading. Be patient, and learn and use good safety practices.
Brian
g,
Not sure if anyone has suggested this to you but you might want to check out Fine Homebuilding for their newsletter. I just got their Green e Letter that has some good info. in it. If you don't find it on the FHB site, email me and I'll forward it to you.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I decided to move the 1,500sqft home my father built closer to town (farmboy) in 2004. It was well built, but most of the finishes dated to the 70's. I have done almost all of the work myself. I did have professionals check my work.
Think this through very very carefully. What type of person are you? are you handy? how much help can you expect? how much are you willing to hire out? is there a reasonable budget? If you are the type that takes things as far as possible (complexity, frugal, uniqueness, research everything), it is a huge undertaking and can take on a life of its own. I am on year four of my project and maybe able to move upstairs into a finished master bedroom soon and have a finished floors. Original target timeline, TWO YEARS.
Brad
Food for thought. You might want to contact your local chapter of Habitat for Humanity and do a little volunteer work for the experience.
Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Thanks so much....I just checked their site and signed up to volunteer.
Good on ya! A win /win plan.
You may even find some Volunteers to give you a hand when your ready to build ;-)
Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Edited 2/22/2008 5:52 pm ET by BruceS
Might be a little late with this, but I had a neighbor 3 houses down that built his own house. He told me he never even built a bird house, but he was 25 years old, a mechanical eng. and thought he could do it. He bought a carpenters hammer, then a circular saw and a panel saw guide. That was it, and off he went. He had the basement blocks layed and he poured the floor. He ordered all his Pella windows at one time and delivered. He covered them up and two nights later they were all stolen. When he got the first bundle of shingles, he turned one over and read how to install them. He really tried to get up the outside and finished a bath and bedroom fast. Anyway, he worked on the house for about two and half years during the late 70's and got transferred and made out like a bandit. The only thing I can say is he lived with a lot of messed house, but did it get it completed, and lived in a big, nice house where he could of never had afforded one had he not had the guts to build. John
If possible design the house to be constructed in phases. It was all on one floor to avoid the costs and hassles of building multiple stories by himself. If you go to two stories, you add a lot of dificulty on reaching the upper portions, that you avoid on a single story home.
Design for simple finishes that can be upgraded later. T-111 siding, looks ok with a couple coats of paint, and if you want to fancy it up with siding later, it is a good substrate. Plus if you use T-111, you can wait until just before occupancy, to cut the openings for windows and doors, which makes it harder to vandalize or burglarize.
My Dad built a big rambling ranch style, that was designed so the first phase, (kitchen, bath, utility room, a small bedroom and two medium bedrooms) could be constructed in one summer. Nothing fancy, but big enough for the family he had at the time, and buttoned up for winter.
The second phase went out to the west, and included a new entry, a dining / living room, and a car port.
The third phase closed in the car port, to convert it to a living room, and added the garage / shop. He used the shop to mill all the trim, and the next year installed hardwood flooring, and interior trim.
The final phase added a two story addition on the east end with four bedrooms, the small bedroom became a second bathroom, and the wall between the two medium bedrooms came down, to becoem the family room.
But the secret was he had designed the whole structure first, to be constructed in phases as he had the money, and the time. So, when he finished it, the style and flow of the structure was harmonious, and didn't look like a decade of hack jobs. He had a heart murmer, and couldn't get life insurance, so he kept the debt load low enough that Mom could feed teh family, and afford the house payment on his survivor benefits.
Jigs-n-fixtures
Don't be so quick to discard building to the second story level..
My friend did the calculations and 1500 sq.ft. on the second floor cost him only $10,000 more than building the first floor and basement.. He doesn't need the space right now and it's not finished but we all know how much more valuable addtional space is.. In the past when telehandlers weren't as common as they are today that alone would be reason to keep things on a single story basis.
No longer, In two weeks he had everything up and in place using the telehandler and the rental was around $1000. If it had taken him a month the cost would have been around two grand..
As for siding. T111 screams cheap (but is relatively expensivenowdays. Plus it's not very durable.. If instead of stick building he would have choosen ICF's the house would be more energy efficent and gone together much faster and easier.. (think of big sytrofoam leggos)
They are extremely friendly to building in phases..
"I guess my question is: Can someone in my position who has a 9 to 5 job learn the skills, on the side ,to build a modest house. How this crazy is this?"
Go over to breaktime forum. I'd say 50% of the folks over there are in a similar position as you are.
You have the perfect skill level; you don't know enough to run away as fast as possible! Everyone who takes on an older house has to learn many new skills like framing, foundations, electrical and plumbing - both are all bad and need complete replacement unless it got upgraded recently.
Depending on how old the house is and the level of woodworking in it, you may have to learn turning, old time finish carpentry with old moldings and fancy details and authentic finishes. I've helped some friends with Victorians and there's lots of work that few professionals can do anymore but the beauty of the house makes it worth while. One friend became a restoration contractor after his second old house and does well in a really specialized market.
My best advice would be to look at all the fundamentals first like the foundation, the framing, the siding, etc. Don't finish a room and have to open a wall to shore up the foundation. If you watch "This Old House" as regularly as I do, you'll be aware that there are lots of surprises waiting under the wall board where rot and plumbers with saws have compromised the structure. Find this first and fix it all before you fancy up anything!
And, you'll get to buy lots of new tools.
Good luck, this is a great adventure and you'll be preserving a great part of our history - let's see if those KB homes in North Natomas are still standing in a hundred years!
My suggestion is that you find a good contractor and tell him what you are up to and either volunteer or work on the side for a dime on the dollar. Do this for a year or more straight religiously,
You will learn stuff as they really are and you will know what is like to spend all your off-time tied to a project. Come out of it ok and then jump on your own project
G-
Ask the same question over at the Breaktime forum. You'll get a ton of opinions on the matter over there - some good, some bad.
J
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