I,I’m building a bed for my friend. He says he wants the biggest bed possible. I sleep on a bed that’s 73″ between post’s but he says they come bigger. He went to a furniture store and was told there was 78″ between the post’s, supposedly they measured. I inquired at another furniture store and was told that a wider size was once available but a 38″ twin box was now the widest on the market. Trouble is, he only wants this bed if his wife likes it when finished. I do this for a hobby and was going to build a bed anyway. I thought it was time to get some of my tool money back, but I don’t want to end up with a bed too wide. I’ve got a lot of cherry in this project. I have cut out a head board and footboard 81″ wide (not yet assembled) that will allow for 78″ between the post’s. That’s going to leave almost 81″ between the rails. Does anyone know what the BIGGEST king size bed, box springs, or mattress is?
Additionally, I always thought that the bolt rail fastener was the quality method of assembly. I went to Woodcraft to buy the threaded inserts recommended by BrianF on this forum. Woodcraft didn’t have those and insisted that the flat slip in method was the best way to connect the rails. They did say the connectors must be mortised exactly flush with the post’s and rails. Woodcraft, which has always been helpful, said the reason furniture mfgs used the bolt method was for production speed. Now I’m not sure which method to use. appreciate any comments. agriffee
Replies
I have built several beds for customers and I never build a full on custom bed without the exact dimensions from the mattress they will be using. There are too many variables. The biggest variable is the mattress height which can vary by over 12". You need to know the height to make sure the headboard will look right. As far as hardware I prefer bed bolts. I have used the knock down slip in connectors but I think the bed bolts make a much more solid and stable connection.
Tom
Douglasville, GA
I always have my customers find the mattress that they want first and use those dimensions. I would hate to do all that work on speculation that they can later get the mattress. I get the brass threaded inserts that I use as I showed you before at Menards up here but I am sure HD has them as well. I sure wouldn't use those connectors. The connection just isn't sturdy enough and there is nothing worse than a wobbely bed. If you do use them though they have to be mortised in. It's easily done with a router and corners cleaned up with a chisel.
I used those once on a bed for my daughter and it wasn't real sturdy. I then went to a mortise and tennon with bed bolts which was rock solid, but didn't like the cover plate. That's when I went to the split tennon and the concealed draw bolt that draws the tennon tight into the mortise, that I showed you. If you have any other questions about my technique let me know.
Brian
Edited 1/4/2004 5:25:16 PM ET by BrianF
Thanks for the help also to Tom, Paul, John Hardy. Obviously, regardless of what Woodcraft people say, the quality way of joining bed rails is with a bolt. I'm disappointed in those guys for misleading me. I've spent too much money with them to be treated that way.
Regarding the spec bed, I knew what I was getting into. Winter was coming on and I wanted to build a bed anyway. Now that it is all cut out with only part of the turning and joinery left, it looks good enough that I kind of hope my friend doesn't want it. I did insist that he find the springs and mattress he would buy and give me the size. If he doesn't, I'll build the bed 78" wide.
Originally the quote was approximately $850 for the bed with the Arch top headboard in Woodsmith Feb 2003. Since his wife wanted something nicer (bed will have 4" by 6' turned post and fancy curved headboard) it's now going to cost him at least $1050. I'm going to have about $500 in it. This will be the first time I've charged anybody more than cost. I think I can sell it even if he doesn't take it. We'll see. Thanks again, agriffee
PS I am going to use 3/4 " cherry plywood for the rails, heavy enough?
I usually use 8/4 stock for rails. I wouldn't think ply would hold up for long.Tom
Douglasville, GA
PLYWOOD RAILS????...thats a no no. 'plywood' is ok, not 3/4 store bought...make yer own atleast 5/4 ...better yet 6/4 dressed alot better.
The plywood I was going to use is good plywood. Cost $ 110 per 4 x 8 and is finished on both sides, one side cherry. I was going to add a 1 1/2" or 2" plywood runner on bottom of rail for bed slats and strength. Planed on mortising rails in 1" wide and 3/4" deep with bolt insert. However, if that's not strong enough, I could use solid cherry. Can only get 7/8" from material I have and would still need to add runner. I don't want to make a mistake on this. Please give me your thoughts. agriffee
I
Hello,
I just picked up this thread and I am currently making a king sized bed as well. For fasteners I'm using the mortised in type (the double hook ones). I've used tehm before on a Queen sized bed and they work very well. I have found a significant difference in quality. The ones I've used in the past fit very tightly and there is no movement what so ever. the ones I have now were much looser but some tuning with a hammer and the bed is solid. The mortise depth is critical for a tight fit.
For side rails I have 1" stock with 1.5x1.5" cleats. I use plywood to tye the bed together instead of individual slats. An important thing for king sized beds is since there are two box springs it is advisabel to add center support legs to take some of teh load from the middle of the bed. I've added two for my bed. You can see the bed I'm working on under current work at my web site.
Good luck and if you need any more info feel free to ask.Adam
My site: http://home.cogeco.ca/~akropinski
Adam, just for your info, take no offense please. Slats allow air circulation which helps combat unwanted stuff growing in the box springs..that close to the floor they can get nasty.
Hi Sphere,
No offence taken. I hadn't thought about ventillation. Seeing that my matress/box has been sitting on the floor for for the past 3+ years, maybe I should lift it up and check it out. As an I idea I may route/drill some air holes in the ply. I found that using ply made it stronger than using slats.Adam
My site: http://home.cogeco.ca/~akropinski
That info. comes from a very demanding source (my wife) ..lol..seems like she had a bad experiance one time..we too had a bed just on the floor and noticed a musty kinda smell..she insisted on a bedframe..I was thinking platform with drawers...she said no dice..gotta have air circulation..sure enough, with slats..no musty smell..who'd a thunk it.
Adam - LOVED the tall Mission Lamp at your site (as well as all the other items) I've been struggling with getting a lamp for my living room - I'm a "beachy" kinda girl (just don't live at the beach) but I needed something tall behind a peachy beige leather sectional sofa and all those metal-arched-domed things just ain't doin' it for me. I think I'll work on something similar to this only with a white washed, more rustic appearance. Thanks for sharing. I'm a TRUE newbie and really appreciate seeing the work of others on this forum.It's football time in Tennessee! Go Vols!!!!
I don't understand the 1.5" x 1.5" cletes. how wide is your rails? I thought a clete ran from top of rail to bottom of rail. thanks, agriffee
Hello,
Maybe I'm not using the correct terminalogy. My side rails are approx 7" deep/high. I attach a cleat/strip along the bottom inside edge of the rail (teh full length). This cleat supports the slats or ply bottom and also takes some of the load of the matress. What I have done in the past is to screw the ply to teh cleat and this ties the whole bed together. Does this make it clearer?Adam
My site: http://home.cogeco.ca/~akropinski
Yep, maybe I'm not using the correct terminology. That's what I call a runner. What's that piece that's glued on the end of rail to make it wider so you have a wider end to mortise in and run a bolt in? agriffee
I've never seen the ends of side rails widdened to support joinery. My side rails are 1". There is a shallow 5/8" wide mortise to accept the hardware. If you are using bedbolts and tennons, a 1/2-3/4 tennon would be plenty and doable with 1" stock. The bedbolt installation I've seen simply capture the nut (round or square) in mortise in the siderail. If you dont want the bedbolt shoing on the corner posts, then you need to do some fancy work and thicker rails would be better/easier. Taunton has a good book on beds that show alot of bed bolt intallation.Adam
My site: http://home.cogeco.ca/~akropinski
Thanks to all, hope i'm on right track now. agriffee
Hey Adam, just looked on your site. Impressive! Very clean, I'm sure it stays that way. agriffee
Agriffee, on the bed I made the cleat was 1 x 1-1/2 and was glued and screwed (at 6in centres) to the inside face of each rail so it was flush with the bottom of the rail. The slats were retained by dowell pins in the top of cleat.
Hope this helps, Ian
My thoughts follow this line..(1)..the nuts/inserts embedded need a real sound attachment..The laminations of even 'good' ply are not always glued as well as you might think. (2) The veneers (unless lumcore) are of a softer wood in the ply. Useually luaun or poplar. (3) you will need to treat the top edge of the ply with a durable edging=cherry. I would do the bottom as well for aesthetics. More labor. (4) even 7/8 solid is a better choice as far as structural integrity ...2 people, bedding and god knows how many dogs <g> will weigh possibly 400lbs. add some wiggle factor (some of us do a lot more than others) I would want solid wood holding it all up. I have seen a lot of repair work on beds. and have never seen a 3/4 '' plywood rail.
Do as you wish these are just my thoughts after 20+ yrs. doing this type of work..
I will dig up a pic and scan it shortly..of a cherry bed.with 5/4 rails, I do not recall if the rails are clearly shown , I was more interested in the 16/4 turned posts..I will post it later today.
Absolutely go with the solid and keep it as thick as you can. I try to be at least 1" but your 7/8" is much better than ply.
Brian
You're not charging enough. Only a little over $1K for a cherry bed? Custom, as well? Can I get you to redo my entire bedroom suite? ... :) just kidding here ...
How many hours will you have in this? How about wear and tear on the tools? How about supplies (glue, sandpaper, etc.). How much, really, in materials? You'll be making about $10 per hour on this bed. Or less.
I also read the stuff about the rails being plywood or 4/4 cherry. That's far too skimpy in my opinion. I'd go with 8/4 stock for the rails, about 8 inches high ... it'd look awesome. If you can't get 8/4 stock, you could easily glue two pieces of 4/4 together to make the rails. Note that the plywood is not only not strong enough, it would hole the hardware/bolts at the ends very well.
PS - my son bought a solid cherry bed, queensize, at Berkeley Mills in Berkeley, Ca., a few years ago. It's an Arts & Crafts style bed, and absolutely beautiful. He paid something like $3500 and the current price, I think, is something like $5500. I may be off, but not by a lot. I think their web site is http://www.berkeleymills.com. Give it a look.
John
Thanks to all who helped, John Hardy, BrianF, Tom, Paul, Sphere, Adam Kropinski. I'm going to break out some more solid cherry for the rails. Too many folks telling me no on plywood, not much difference in cost anyway. I'm going to get all I can out of 5/4 and add cleats on end. I had planed on a center support. BrianF, I've ordered threaded inserts from Rockler. Hope this will achieve quality I'm looking for.
John, I hear what you're saying. I do this for a hobby. Everything I did the past three years for numerous family and friends has been at cost or for free. I know the price for this bed is perhaps low, but I wanted the experience and an outlet for this project. I will earn very little for my time on this bed. I spend a lot of time making jigs, etc., that you folks won't due to your experience and knowledge. I don't have a quota and so far every project has turned out beautiful.
However, I've bought a lot of tools the past three years and just recently decided to start getting some money back. I'm keeping close track of time and material on this project. So far I've got 73.5 board feet of cherry in this bed. Solid rails will take another 16.5 feet. I bought 300 board feet for $100 about a year ago but I'm using replacement cost at $4.50 per board foot because its almost gone. Don't expect any more deals like that. That's $403 in wood. I've also bought a Rosetta cutter, wide dowel center, long straight bit, graph paper, etc., equaling another $209.00. Of course I'll still have those tools when this projects done so don't know how much is fair to charge to this bed. So now the total is $612. If I pick up $475 over cost that's more than I've been getting. I have learned a lot on this forum and have learned a lot on the things I've built. One thing I'll do before the next project is go out and see what things are selling for. Which I'd checked beds before starting this.
Appreciate all the help folks. Hope I'm not a nuisance. Thanks, agriffee
Don't worry too much about making money. I did the same for a while. I didn't make nearly the hourly rate that I wanted, but much of that was due to inexperience and inefficiency. Get a few projects under your belt and make a few bucks. I look at it as the price of an education. If you cover your materials and maybe buy a new tool or two, you're doing all right.
I'm glad to hear that you are going to use solid for the rails. You won't need to add any to the ends for the joinery. I use steel angle iron for cleats and then screw threw the bottom of that to secure the slats.
Have fun!!
Brian
I built a prototype of your method. Turned out real nice. A little tight working the nut tight. Will probably have to cut a screw driver slot in the threaded rod to get the rod into the insert when installing in post. Will have to screw insert in by running the nut tight against the insert. Don't guess will be any problem with the insert backing out when removing nut. Think will work fine. If I missed anything hope you'll tell me.
Prototype is just a one foot length of rail to size. I could only get 7/8" from my material. I added a 7/8" thick 1 1/2" x 7" block to the end of test rail. Gave me 7/4 on the rail end, then routed out your T., took 3/8" off each side, left a 1" tenon. drilled a hole right in middle of tenon(also middle of glue joint). Only had to route the T 1/4" deep in rail. Unless I missed something, without the block and drilling a T 5/8" deep would only leave 1/4" material. Seems that would severely weaken the rail.
I didn't use the extra blocking as you did. You are right where the routed out area is it becomes only about 1/4" thick, but it is strong(think the vertical webbing in an I beam). The way you have it is good though if you have the room inside the rails for the box spring. i use a bolt in the routed out area instead of threaded rod. I can then use an open end wrench to tighten it that is what the "t" area is for. I also do as you did using a jam nut to thread the insert into the rail. Sounds like you are on the right track.
Brian
There may be as many as six different sizes for 'King' sized beds. There have been threads here in the past that have discussed them. The size I am most familiar with is 78" by 8o" long, using two 'tall' single box springs, 39x80 on a framw with a single mattress 78x80. This was explained to me as being because a one piece box spring, being rigid would not get into a lot of bedrooms where the mattress, being flexible, could be forced. That was a few years back. The way mattresses are being built these days, much thicker & less flexible, I'd do some homework before I committed to building a bed.
The earlier reply to your query was right on the money. Custom furniture is usually more expensive because it is custom. Speculation work can be difficult to sell unless you just happen to luck into the right customer. If you build something for yourself because you want it, fine. If you later sell it, great. But, if a potential customer wants you to build something to see if he might like to buy it, a deposit equal to the cost of the materials would be appropriate.
As an aside, I was recently approached by an importer of Asian furniture. Seems they had ordered a 'king' sized bed. The bed they received was for a 72x80 mattress. They had a client willing to purchase the bed but wanted it for a 78x80 mattress. 'Could I alter the head & foot boards to fit?' The tropical hardwood used to make the bed had only completed it's drying after spending some time in Manitoba's winter climate & had a lot of serious stress cracks in it. The design did not lend itself to alteration very well at all. The outrageous fee I quoted was readily accepted, fortunately my schedule was way too full for the time frame they had in mind. Should have said, sorry ,not interested right up front.
Paul
There are different king size beds ... two of them are the eastern king (I think 78" by 80") and the California king, which is narrower and, I think, slightly longer than the eastern king.
The other advice to build to a specific mattress is "right on". Not only are there different length/width mattresses, there are also different height mattresses.
But, more importantly, you're nuts if you build a bed on spec and don't sell it ... you'll have a white elephant around which cost you not only lots of your time but also the cost of the materials. Your friend is taking advantage of you, big time.
John
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