Help
I have attempted to use Turbo Cad Deluxe for some time. Although I am computer literate, I am lost. I have no formal mechanical drawing training. I always go back to the drawing board, a wooden one. I feel if I could get off center and learn the basics, a CAD system would be useful.
Are there any videos available for CAD software? Is there a simple software package that would be useful for designing furniture, simple metal projects, etc. I do not want to draw a 747. Just the things I like to build.
If I had time, I would take a course at the local university. If I had time to do that, I would take another woodworking course at our art center.
Thanks
Grits
Replies
Grits -
I'm a long time CAD user by way of credentials. I was also trained as a paper (wood drawing board) drafter - by way of credentials.
We may be a while here so bear with me.....
There are only two kinds of basic two dimensional 'primitives' with respect to CAD drafting: lines and arcs. Circles are special cases of arcs. One could get more philosophical and say there are only arcs, where lines are special cases of arcs of infinite radius. But let's not go there.
OK, I don't have TurboCAD and thus I'm not familiar with the command set. Suffice it to say, almost any CAD software I *have* had experience with relies on a cartesian coordinate system. The first thing you have to know and understand is what this implies. All 'objects' in a CAD drawing are created relative to this coordinate system. Again, that's in all CAD systems I've experienced.
If you're not familiar with a cartesian (x/y) coordinate system, picture in your mind a framing square with both blade and tongue infinitely long. The "origin" of the coordinate system is where the two meet. This is the 0,0 point. All lines, arcs, circles, etc., are, or can be relative to that point.
Second thing you need to come to grips with is that the computer's drafting board is not finite as with a sheet of paper. The computer screen represents but a portion of the available 'drafting surface' if you will. Older versions of AutoCAD used to come with a drawing called "solar.dwg" if I remember right. When one inititally loaded the drawing file there were nine circles displayed on the screen. Zooming in on a little dot on the third circle revealed that this was planet earth, which had yet again another circle around it. Zooming in on a dot on that circle around earth, one discovers this is the moon. Zooming in again a small dot becomes evident on the surface of the moon. Finally after zooming in sufficiently one can read the plaque the lunar astronaughts placed there. Thus, forget about the confines of the edges of "paper". The only time that's relative is when you go to produce some hard copy output.
Thirdly .... scale. Don't even think about scale. With CAD you're drawing FULL scale at all times. A 1' line may appear much shorter than that on the screen but trust me .... the computer's got it stored as a 1' line. I've worked on 200,000sf buildings that I could completely display on my screen or by zooming in, focus on a single element a few inches wide that still fills the screen. Scale is meaningless until you need to produce hard copy output. Think full scale all the time. If you want to draw a line 5-3/8" long, "draw" it that long.
There's much more, of course, but I'll try to keep this under 10k words. There's the issue of what I'll call drawing integrity. Meaning that all lines and arcs are physically (in a metaphorical sense) connected to one another. This us usually a function called, in AutoCAD, object snap where the construction of a new line is begun by specifying that its start point is the end point of another line. This seemingly esoteric obsession is, to me, vital in creating a valid 2D or, as you progress in the CAD world, 3D model of your design.
CAD is useful but remember, CAD is an acronym for Computer Assisted Drafting. Another acronym is CADD - Computer Assisted Drafting and Design. There is no such thing as Computer Assisted Design in my humble yet closely held opinion. Design is totally within the realm of human intelligence. Well, I guess there are examples in nature that would obviate that but for the purposes of this discussion, I don't believe computers, in the current condition at least, provide any input to the design process. This is your, and my responsibility.
Can you be specific on what it is you're having problems with? The command set for your software my well be different from mine but the essential ingredients are none the less common across the board.
Dennis
Thank you for your help. The scale alone will be of great help. I have been working on small drawings on a 1:1 scale. The Command set is what is giving me a fit.
I have a good understanding of the Cartesian coordinate system. I have no problem dealing in metric, English decimal or fractional. Even though this was a million years ago, I still have a grasp for Trig, geometry, and a little bit of calculus. The mathematical part is not what keeps me at a snails pace.
I know exactly what I want to do; finding the right button is the frustrating part. My lack of terminology is also hampering.
If I could find a quick class, even if it were on video, it would be great.
Thanks,
Grits
"I know exactly what I want to do; finding the right button is the frustrating part."About all I can say, Grits, is that this takes practice. Back when I learned AutoCAD we were in the DOS world; no 'buttons', just a command line interface. For the most part I still use the keyboard for command entry. Most Acad commands are 'aliased' to one or two letter commands like 'L' for line, 'C' for circle, etc. One can still even create one's own command aliases.If the menu bar, icon interface is at all customizable in TurboCAD, you could try eliminating some of the buttons and icons that you rarely use. Makes it easier to find what you do want. With practice and experience you reach a point where the software is, as they say, transparent. Rearrange the icons/buttons, if that's possible so the most used ones are in a specific location. Better yet, if you have the option for keyboard entry, learn command shortcuts as I describe for AutoCAD. I'm not a touch typist but I can enter commands with the keyboard faster than taking my eyes off the work area, hunt for a button, even though I know exactly where it is, then go back to the place where I want to start the line or whatever.Sorry I can't be much help - but frankly I'm not sure a class is going to solve your problem, totally. Practice is the only reliable path towards familiarity with the software.Just my opinion.
Dennis
You have been a great help. I go well back into the DOS world. I still use Lotus more than Excel because I am an advanced Lotus user. I still use the keystrokes because it is faster.
I went through the same thing with Pagemaker many years ago. With practice, the software became transparent.
I am going to fight on. One of will win.
Thanks again
Grits
Grits -At the risk of drifting off topic, we were in an office supply store the other day looking for a good inexpensive word processor for my wife's computer. I mentioned something to the young clerk about PageMaker and received a sorta blank stare. I think Adobe has abandonded it for another product line, have they not? Something like Adobe Publisher or ....When I first started learning AutoCAD I was so fascinated with it I used to stay up 'till the wee hours just fussing around with it. It became an obsession. I don't suggest you risk marital harmony by devoting months on end of late night rendezvous with your computer but, unfortunately I guess that's what it takes. (grin)
Dennis
I was using Pacemaker when Aldis (sp) owned it, long before Adobe. It has been at least ten years since I did much with it. In the late eighties and early nineties I used it to produce catalogs and flyers for a sporting goods company I owned.
I was up many times to the wee hours with Pagemaker and numerous other programs. As a matter of fact, I was using Pacemaker on a 80286. You can not imagine how slow it was. Most of the desktop publishing was, and I think still is, done on a Mac.
I don't regret any of it. It has allowed me to stay up with these young whipper snappers. When I studied data processing in college, we used punch cards. That really dates me. My daughter does not know what a punch card it.
Thanks again
Grits
Hi Grits -Looks like I opened a Pandora's box!! None the less -I chuckled at your mention of the punch cards. That was my first introduction to computers using a program (on punch cards) that read the plotter commands that we were to create (on punch cards). It took a card to tell the plotter to pick up the pen, another to tell it to move to a certain x/y point and another to tell it to put the pen down. Three punch cards and we still haven't drawn anything! (hehe) Plus you had to digitize, manually, the location of every end point of every line in the drawing you wanted to create.To think now we can just point to a location on the screen, click then another location, click .... and we've created not just three punch cards but at least six more to complete the line.But in the end, no matter how sophisticated the CAD drafting program is, all it really does is create a set of plotter commands in order to create a hard copy of what's illuminated on your screen. Yes there are more advanced "design" programs but in my opinion, as I've already stated, these are grossly ill named. No computer program exists that could create the kinds of things Frank Gehry is doing or that Wright did or any of the many other great contemporary, for their time, architects. I've quit trying to keep current with all the CAD and graphics software, only in the periphery do I pay much attention to it anymore. By far the mechanical design disciplines are light years ahead of ordinary CAD stuff but the prices on some of it reflect it, too. But their's is more a world of absolutes than the more free thinking indiviuals that make up the society of woodworkers, wouldn't you say.Just kidding (grin)
Dennis
Free thinking individuals is what makes America great!
Grits
Hi, my name is Joe and I'm an AutoCAD junkie ;-)
I am actually a self taught AutoCAD user (by no means am I an expert) and my greatest piece of advice to a newbie is "just do it". You will be slow at first, but with an understanding of just the line, arc and the object snap functions, you can draw anything. It just may take you 2-3 time longer than an "expert" but you can still get it done.
I've always thought about taking a class, but all it will do is teach you how to do things faster, not necessarily better. There are a ton of shortcuts, but those come with time. Some you learn from others and most you make up on your own.
IMHO I've always liked AutoCAD LT. It's configured like the full blown AutoCAD but at a fraction of the price.
(Grits - your initial reponse was excellent, thanks)
Joe
Hi Ive been using autocad lt 2000 for about a year. this program was loaded onto my pc from a disc from my old work place so i could do work at home. I have since moved on from there. My problem is I am about to buy a new pc to be able to use ecabinet systems software, but I would also like to continue to use autocad lt. is it possible to transfare autocad lt onto another disc from my original pc to load onto my new pc. Also I have never got to grips with 3d thats why Ime hoping ecabs will solve my 3d problems.
john.
I'm not a pc expert by any means, but I don't believe there's anyway to transfer your current AutoCAD LT without the installation disks - sorry.
The LT version is not user friendly when it comes to 3D. It works, but it's a very manual process. The full-blown AutoCAD has many bells and whistles that make 3D much easier.
Good luck with E-Cab. Post an update when you get the hang of it.
Joe
many thanks for your advice, I have autocad 2000 on disc do you think this would be better for 3d. What about furniture drawings (woodgrains etc)?
john
The full version of AutoCAD (14 and onward) is far superior to Acad LT with respect to 3D modeling. In my opinion. That's all I do for a living - 3D modeling. Learn to use the solids modeler and understand the basics of boolean operations such as union and subtraction; extrusion of outlines and so forth. Sounds daunting but it's not, really.The rendering capabilities of Acad 2000 aren't very good, again in my opinion. If you're involved in 3D modeling to any extent and want better results I'd look at an add-on such as AccuRender. (http://www.mcneel.com) Provides bitmapping images (photos of wood veneers for examply) onto surfaces. The procedural textures take lots of effort to get right. Bit mapping or, as they're termed in the program decals are much superior.If you have a penchant for free form design, I'd suggest trying a demo copy of Rhinoceros (http://www.mcneel.com). This is a true 3D NURBS modeling application. Somewhat easy to learn and extremely powerful. They have a rendering add-on that's excellent as well. It's actually a port of the Acad add-on renderer AccuRender to Rhino.
Dennis, One thing you did not mention is that you may know how to use it today, but in a few months it may be gone...I have Autocad 2004 and up graded from R14 and 2000...I was using 2000 heavily for a couple months. Got so I was doing some nice 3D kitchen designs,etc. then went to work on a project and did not use it for about 6 months...Jeeze you would have thought I'd never even seen a cad program before...
May be my advanced age, but it seems its like flying an airplane, gotta keep current or you will have a problem...
Bud
Bud -I don't quite agree with the idea that one loses proficiency with CAD software through disuse. Not totally at any rate.I retired almost three years ago. 18 months or so afterwards I got a call from a client wanting some work. Grays Harbor College performing arts building, complete 3D model and layout drawings for a three story concrete frame building. It took me about an hour to get back to where I was as comfortable using AutoCAD (R14) as I had been. I've since done a couple other projects and don't really feel like I've been away from it at all. I think it's not unlike riding a bike.I have Acad 2002 but at this point in my life I see little advantage to upgrading that or any of my other software. Compatility with other users or people in the information chain isn't an issue in my work so I don't consider it broke, won't fix it.
DANG FINALLY a post that made sense!EDIT:: Design is totally within the realm of human intelligence..
I'm sort of smart but design is a ART.. My mother can paint in oils and just beautiful.. I have a hard time drawing a 'stick man'..At work I had to make drawings for service manuals using CAD.. I HAD HELP.. I had a good friend there that was a Illustrator that could draw ANYTHING!.. I just tell him what I was thinking about.. I had a sketch in about 3 minutes.. I worked from that... God he was good...
Edited 10/24/2005 11:14 am by WillGeorge
I use Turbo Cad Deluxe at home..
I have used CAD programs that cost more money than I have made in my life!.. NONE are easy to learn.. Well, for me ...
Not sure, but I think Turbo Cad sells training packages..
Good luck.. Also, you can find Turbo Cad drawings you can download around th web.. If nothing else shows you how others 'did it their' way.
If I had time, I would take a course at the local university. ..
I did that.. I MADE TIME.. It was fun! Hard to keep up with these bright young kids though.. Geee THEY would ask this old guy for help?? As if I knew what I was doing.. LOL.. Kids are great!
WillGeorge
I agree with you about young people being great. I am involved with the Ag school at the University of Arkansas. It is a lot of fun. Wonderful young people.
Grits
Grits,
I have an older version of Turbo Cad. It came with three training courses. They were great. I just sat back and listened to a Brit describe how to do basic drawings while on screen the curser when through all the motions: pushing the buttons and using the pull down menus. I spent around three hours on the training and got a great basic education. They have lots of training courses listed their site. I use the program for all my drawings and materials estimates.
Good Luck!
Scotso
Hi,
you should consider Sketchup, simple, fast to learn but yet very powerful.
I work with both Sketchup and Autocad, so I know the difference.
go have a look at http://www.sketchup.com
Tony
Grits,
I know exactly how you feel. I bought Turbocad and floundered around with it for a while. I was pulling my hair out and was ready to chuck it but ended up getting a set of tutorial CD books from ebay and slogged through them. If you go to ebay and do a search for "mastering turbocad" you should get a link to the books. The guy selling them on ebay is the author of the books (Kevin Doucette). His books are also available through CADCourse.com but they're more expensive there.
If money's really tight you could try this link and download the "Free Book - Complete Guide to Learning CAD." It only covers 2D and references an outdated version of TurboCAD(v4) but it will still teach you the basics of using snaps, grids, and handle based editing. I think it would probably get you to the point where you can do just about anything in CAD 2D that you used to do with paper.
It's bit of a learning curve, but definitely worth the trouble. I'll never go back to pencil and paper except maybe to do some rough freehand sketches. The piece of MDF that I used for a drafting board to draw up my projects is now a base for a tablesaw jig.
Hope this helps, Steve
I have a really nice drawing table that I made some years ago. It's a modern "roundover" type of piece and is the most striking project I've made judging from comments and offers to buy it. It's made from 10/4 koa with an veined and figured english walnut veneered top cut from local firewood. I have a Tee square, triangles, circle and elipse templates, and several generations of drawing instruments.
Now, I build projects that are designed either with a sketch pad and rough dimensions or on TurboCad 7.0. The CAD program is by far the most flexible way to draw things to complex to sketch out or just build.
I've used an older Autocad and visio besides TurboCad. None are even remotely easy; I'm still trying to figure out 3D in Turbocad. With the drawing power comes complexity.
Don't give up too soon. Mechanical drawing in my freshman year helps to understand what I'm doing, but CAD is complex and dense and there's no substitute for tutorials and just plain spending time at the computer. I'm going to go to eBay myself and order the CD book on Turbocad. Maybe I'll even upgrade someday.
Telemike
I did not take mechanical drawing in college. That was not a high priority in the business school at the U of A.
Since this post, I have been working with TurboCad 9.2. I have gotten to the point of drawing some simple metal projects. One being a dial indicator holder that fits in the slot of a table saw to true the blade and the fence. Something I could have done with a simple sketch; however, I am determined on learning how to use it. I will be great for my fun projects and also useful on the farm. We often have to have parts made and it will be much better to take a good drawing to whoever.
I am trying to figure out how to use the layer function. The concept is similar to our precision ag software. That is where a field is mapped with GPS. Layers could be different fertility levels, soil test points, areas treated with different chemicals, harvest information, etc.
I did upgrade to TurboCad Deluxe Ver 11 with the training cd's. I think they will be a great help.
Thanks for the reply. I will post until I figure it out or it drives me nuttier than I already am.
Good Luck
Grits
Grits -Think of "layers" in a CAD drawing as separate sheets of totally clear acetate on which you can draw various components of the object, place dimensions, notes and so forth. The utility of layering is you can freeze, turn off or make non visible those parts of the drawing that you're not working with thus remove what might be 'clutter' so you can concentrate on other aspects of the design.Take as a simple example a table. Consider its constituent parts - top, apron, legs and so forth. Obviously it would be excessive to put each part on its separate layer but let's say just for study we do this. The legs go on the "Legs" layer, top on the "Top" layer (not the top layer but a layer named Top) and so forth. Now the legs are highly carved tapered objects. We turn off or freeze all the other layers so we can work on just these parts. Makes navigating a 3D drawing much simpler.Another advantage of using layers is that, and I'm sure it's true in TurboCAD as well as AutoCAD, you can set the color for all objects on a given layer to a unique color making them easier to identify. And, given that the plotting routine is similar to AutoCAD, you can assign different line weights to objects by their color making the drawing considerably easier to read in hard copy output.What questions about using and managing layers do you have?
I'll build on what Denis said about layers. I have a property drawing that I've worked on for years. It has an earth layer with the foundation, the driveway and sidewalks, and the pool. I have a building layer with the house, barn, garage, etc. I have a water layer that has accurate layout for about 1/2 mile of 1 1/4 pipe buried around the place with two wells, and a tree layer with several hundred fruit, nut, fuelwood, and landscape trees. I have an electrical layer. Last, I have a couple of pipedream layers with additions to the house that probably won't happen without a lotto win. Depending on which layers you want visible, you can show features like the buildings, the earth, and the water system. What I want to learn now is how to model projects with wood textured surfaces in 2D, then examine them in 3D. It's certainly not intuitive. I'm going to eBay to find some more tutorials to learn this. This would enable me to look at a vision of what I want to build, not just the design.
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