Hi all, I got some basic advice from the forum many moons ago re. upgrading my woodworking hobby (now retired), setting up a shop, etc. I pretty much followed the advice –took some classes etc. I now have the shop set up, wiring almost finished, wood stove in, lights/fans installed, etc. I am about to purchase some equipment to add to my current inventory. First will be a bandsaw, probably an MM16 although the Grizzly G0636XB is very tempting (I don’t care about the cost difference just trying to figure out what is best). This will be my first and last bandsaw. Next will be a jointer, Grizzly G0490X is current leader. And maybe third will be a cabinet saw (probably SawStop) although I am now considering going without the cabinet saw for awhile (I do have a 1940’s vintage Craftsman 8″ table saw 🙂 ) as I do not plan to do much sheet stock work. I believe I need to get some dust collection capability with the initial bandsaw and for the jointer etc. I was thinking of getting something like the Grizzly G1029Z and just shifting the 4″ hose between machines as opposed to plumbing the entire shop. However, I also have a Festool Domino and was wondering if I got Festools CT33 (largest dust collector) if it would work? It of course would be ideal for the Domino — but could I adapt a 4″ host to it and use for either the bandsaw or the jointer (and maybe someday a cabinet saw)— is there enough airflow for these machines?? Any thoughts, I know the Festool costs more but it is easier to store and move around the shop. A few assumptions:
1) I am OK with moving hoses between machines as opposed to plumbing shop — it is not a production environment.
2) I will not be using the dust control outside of my shop.
3) While the size of the Festool is more convenient, I can accommodate the larger unit.
Will either approach work? Is one better than the other? Can I adapt the Grizzly 1029Z to use with the Domino? Thanks for the help —- almost ready to order the bandsaw!!!! Ed
Replies
Hi Ed
I'll try to answer some of your questions. First, a vac and a dust collector are really different things. A vac is designed to provide lots of suction while pulling relatively little air through the hose.
A dust collector does just the opposite. One a smaller, handheld tool which is designed for extracton, a vac works great. One something like a tablesaw or stationary sander, a vac just won't move enough air to be effective.
Likewise, dust collectors are designed to move lots of air with relatively little suction. If you reduce the diameter of the hose to shopvac size, the suction becomes so aenemic that it's nearly worthless.
I think you should get both!
One other thought is that you should look at a dust collector with a pleated filter instead of the cloth bag. Hands down works better and keeps the air cleaner. Also, if you pony up for a 6" hose for your new dust collector, you'll get nearly twice the performance. A decent dust collector with those two upgrades rivals the performance of some much more expensive cyclones.
Thks Dave, I'll check on the type of dust collector you described.
I'm looking to get a dust collector also and read your post. Can you recommend a good brand with the features you describe?
Thank You
JimI got my info for which DC to choose by reading Bill Pentz's site. He did quite a bit of research and concluded that the Jet 1100 1.5hp and the Delta 50-760 were by far the best in class. In fact, they were the only ones which really came close to the advertised air flow. Things may have changed recently, but that's the best info I could find.
FWW did a similar test and came to the same conclusion.You can order either one with a pleated filter, although the effectiveness of the stock filters may be suspect. The best filter is from Wynn Environmental. If you get the polyester pleated filter, it will last a lifetime and gets nearly 100% of the fine dust. I spoke with the owner of the company and verified with Bill Pentz to make sure.The big complaint about dust collectors is that the filter gets clogged easily. That's the big selling point with cyclones, that they separate out the fine dust before it gets to the filter. Fortunately, somebody came up with a dust separating baffle which fits inside a regular dust collector, and can be made out of a piece of plywood. It makes a DC perform very much like a cyclone. I've only had to clean my filter once this year, and only because I let the bag get overfilled. http://www.cgallery.com/smf/index.php?topic=29.0Then get some 6" hose. I know that most of what you see is 4" hose, but 6" actually moves more than twice as much air than 4". It's like cheating. I got a good deal on some at Penn State.It seems like I'm always seeing 1.5hp dust collectors on Craiglist as people upgrade to cyclones. Might be worth a try.
David B
Thank You!!!
JimLet us know what you end up with.David B
david,
I'll echo your results with those two collectors. I got the Delta 50-760 and it works great. Haven't tried the cannister - still using the heavy felt bag that came with it and am using 4" pipes but very short runs.
Hoping to reconfigure this spring so maybe I will upgrade some of it to 6".
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Hi BobYou won't believe the difference when you go to bigger ducting. After I saw the difference, I kicked myself that I hadn't changed sooner. I split mine so it is hard piped with PVC to the TS (I cut a 6" hole in the TS cabinet). Then everything else is serviced with a 6" flexible tube, necked down to 4" right at the machines. Best wishesDavid B
I'm going for the Delta 50-760. Seems to be at the top of everybody's test. Had a copy of WOOD Mag with a dust collector test and it came out #1 in their test too.
Thank You again for your help.
Any more tips on installing it on a contractor ts.... like best place to install and seal the cabinet? Somebody suggested using a rubber inner tube around the cabinet.
JimI can't help with a contractor's saw but it shouldn't be difficult. I have seen quite a few articles about sealing the base with plywood, then making a fitting for the ducting in the plywood. Then some sort of outboard box for the motor. I'll bet if you google it, you'll find plenty of info. Even better, I'm sure someone will come along and post about how they did it.One thing I can tell you for sure is that overhead dust collection really helps on a tablesaw. I'm a huge fan of Shark Guard. It's a combo splitter/overhead dust port which is very easy to use.http://www.leestyron.com/default.phpGood luckDavid B
Hi David,
Received your Email re: silverdalecyclery
Thank You. I appreciate your time and help.
Ordered the Delta 50-760 today from Amazon...$375 with free shipping.
I thank you and my wife thanks you...the dust wafts up from my basement 'workshop' and bothers her a bit.
I also checked out the Shark site that you directed me too...thanks!!!
Does anyone know if the 50-760 can be converted to 6" piping. It says it has 2 4" intakes and I'm wondering is there a way to change it to 6". I was leaning toward the 2 HP Penn State model right now. The 2HP DC2000B Dust Collector with 1 Micron Filter & Collection Bags is 399 + shipping but it has 6 HP intake ports. And slightly more HP. Does anyone have one of these?
Ribs,
It's probably possible. The area from 2 4" ports is 25sqin, so you'd need a 6" port to properly supply these (a 5" port only has 20" surface area). Though the engineering could be wrong.
The real question is why you want to do this? A 6" pipe will in theory allow for more CFM, but the 50-760 is probably the limiting factor here. I've been trying to pull up the fan curve, but have been unsuccessful. The issue is that you're probably not actually pulling anywhere near the 1200CFM claimed. Most likely around 500CFM or lower, at 500 CFM in a 6 inch pipe your airspeed drops to around 2500 FPM. Which is below recommended speeds to keep material suspended.
As well, very few machines actually require a 6 inch pipe. Most require you to split the pipe, one above and one below. With stationary dust collectors its convenient to split when you reach the machine... A 1.5 HP machine is fairly underpowered to hook up to any real amount of DC pipe.
Buster
Edit: Spell Check
Edited 1/29/2009 2:58 pm by Buster2000
My reasoning for the 6inch piping is Bill Pentz's web page, His recommendation is "For those with small roughly one-car garage sized shops who have ducting but no cyclone, they can barely get by with a good quality 1.5 hp dust collector that turns at least an 11" impeller, but really should use a 2 hp dust collector with at least a 12" impeller.For those with small roughly one-car garage sized shops who have a cyclone, that cyclone will add enough resistance that they need at least a 1.5 hp dust collector with no less than a 12" impeller."All this is done with the idea of using 6" ducting (unless I missed something). The machine I listed above is the most reasonable one I can find that really meets this, a 12inch impeller and 2hp (it also has a cartridge filter). The delta is pretty close with a 11.5 inch impeller and 1.5 hp. That's why I was asking if it had the ability to run a 6inch line.
Ribs,
I have the 50-760 and right now I'm using the Y to split it into 2 4" ducts. If ye hold one a bit, I'll go measure the single openinf for ya.
The O.D. of the connector on the DC itself is 4-7/8" so it's 5". This connector fits inside the Y connected to it.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 1/29/2009 5:11 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
That is one of the problems of Bills dust collection page. His writing isn't always clear, and he makes some pretty big assumptions... The information is all very good, but it's poorly organized. His page can really be boiled down to this:
1. The best place to collect dust is at the source.
2. To collect the dust you need proper airflow, both in volume and in speed (I think people miss this point the most).
3. To get good volume you need to reduce the amount of static pressure in your system.
4. When air is returned to the shop the fine dust particles need to be separated efficiently.
Bill tries to generalize this (6" pipe etc), but you need to work the specifics out to your shop. In the end you'll need to look at your fan curve, add up any static pressue, to figure out what your CFM will be. From that you can determine your air speed.
In the end you have to look at your expectations. If you're looking to reduce the amount of chips and dust on the floor at the end of the day then you're probably on teh right track. If you're aiming to reduce the amount of fine dust, then I think you're going to be dissapointed.
Buster
Ribs,
I have the 50-760 set up with the Y that splits it into 2 4" ducts. One 4" port is connected to metal ducting routed to 2 TS's, Jointer and eventually a downdraft table, all gated. This run is less than 8'.
The other 4" port has a 8' flexible section of hose that is also gated at the machine end. I use this to connect to a router table in one TS, a chopsaw, BS, drum sander or planer as needed.
In addition I have an overhead air filter that runs all the time whenever I'm generating dust with machines; actually I start this well in advance to get the air flowing in the woodshop.
With this system I get very little dust anywhere in the shop, except on the TS top. I am in the process of building a ceiling mounted overhead bladeguard/dust collector connector. Once this is set up I expect no dust.
Guess what I'm saying is that this system captures nearly all the dust at the source, has very short runs and is enhanced with the air filter as since installing that there has been a noticeable difference in the overall performance of my DC solution. At least the respirator filter stays clean a LOT longer.
If someone is thinking that a DC is THE solution to their dust management I think they may be disappointed; it takes more than that.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I've ordered the Delta 50-760. My primary goal is to reduce the amount of fine airborne dust. I have a contractor ts and have read several articles and posts on enclosing the cabinet. One post said that if you use a DC with a 4" tube then you need at least 12 square inches for 'input' air otherwise you won't get the proper air flow and will create a suction which is not what a DC wants. Can you provide any info on whether or not to enclose the ts?
Thank You
One 2" by 6" slot equals 12 square inches. I think you would have a hard time limiting your contractor saw to that little space. Your tube is 12.5 square inches.
Edited 1/29/2009 10:26 pm ET by Tinkerer3
I'm no expert, but I just recently finished my own system.You don't want a 'vacuum' under your saw, it'l just burn your motor up. Obviously you need to draw air in, but as Tinkerer put it 12 sqin isn't actually that much. My hybrid saw easily has that with the openings for motor cooling and other adjustments. Ideally you'll should work some sort of blade shroud which will direct as much of the suction near the blade.To be honest if you really want to collect airborn dust you really need to get an overhead blade guard or some other way to collect dust. The dust below will just collect, but the dust above is what's typically ejected right into your face...
Well being I started this thread, the purpose of this message is to first thank everyone and to tell you where I am heading with this topic. Your comments and other research led to many hours of internet research -- including the Bill Pentz info -- company calls, etc. etc. The result of all of that has led to a purchase, a plan, and a fear of even grinding coffee beans in the morning as I don't have a 5hp cyclone and a .0004 micron filter on my grinder. 1) I bought a festool sander and CT33 dust collector pkg -- now my sanding will be healthier, my domino has dust/chip collection, and I think I can rig it to my router etc. $$$ but simple and high quality, I do some fiberglass work also so this purchase is probably overdue2) I will soon have a bandsaw (MM16) and a new jointer (???), have a portable planer, and maybe a cabinet saw (haven't decided if I need one yet) --- so for these tools I plan to buy a 2 or 2.5 hp Onieda cyclone -- have to have more dialogue with them to finally decide on model etc. I plan to mount the cyclone on the outside of my shop (which is in the corner of a 40 x 60 steel building) and not use the cannister filter (or any filter). I am going to decide what if anything to do about weather protection and will follow Onieda's advice. Noise and fine dust will be outside. I have considered the displacement of heated/cooled air, carbon monoxide, air makeup, etc. and have no problems with these. The gains (fine dust, noise, space) of doing this far outweigh the cons (loss of heated air from a wood stove) in my particular case (I live in northern Calif). My ducting will be fairly simple and not too costly. In summary, dust collection was not even a thought in my intial thoughts to step up my woodworking --- and it is a major piece of the puzzle in reality. Thanks again, Ed
Your woodstove derives it's combustion air from outside?
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Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
No, it is an combustion air comes from inside the shop building --- 40 x 60 steel building that is not at all air tight. I only use it a few months out of the year and it sort of works like a space heater in that it takes the chill off of the area I work in which makes it more comfortable ---not warm. So I will lose heat when running machines (10% of the time I will be using the shop?? just a guess as it is much less right now) but I don't think I will have any carbon monoxide issues as I will have enough makeup air from other openings etc. -- Ed
Hi Edsea, I open a window behind my stove to make up for air loss and it draws air over the stove when the blower is on. I don't notice a loss of heat. By the afternoon it is a little warm in the shop anyway. I am a little north of you in WA but it is temperate. Having the motor noise outside will make the shop nicer. I agree with you it's all a trade off and everyone has a different need. It is good to hear you are going to have dust collection cause that is one thing everyone here agrees on.
After 6 or so years of bringing heated air back into the shop via a set of filters I came around to realizing this was bad for my health. Filters have a life expectancy and in our case it was right around 4 years when I noticed more and more dust settling around on the surfaces. Last Spring I could come into the shop in the morning and run my finger over any surface that had been dusted the evening before and spell my name. Oneida wanted over $1800.00 for a new set of 4 filters and I questioned all the cons of simply replacing the filters and keeping the filter bank in the shop: floor space, noise and replacing the filters again in 5 years, etc.. None of these seemed appealing so I took the whole unit and moved it outside. My lungs have been relieved ever since (I had 5 episodes of Bronchitis last winter).
Hi RibsI'm not positive about the Delta, but my Jet 1.5 hp will accept a 6" duct by just removing the 4" splitter. Behind the splitter is a nice 6" flange.I can personally verify that a well designed 1.5hp DC will work fine with 6" ducting. Just realize that it isn't meant support a network of ducting. For that you'd need a much bigger DC or big cyclone. If you keep the ducting short (under 10') you'll be fine. The reason that I went with the Jet 1100 was that Bill Pentz actually tested a bunch of DCs and found that the Jet and Delta 1.5hp units actually worked better than many 2hp units. There are differences in the design that make a big difference in performance. That's why the Jet and Delta cost more.David B
You're absolutely right that "If you reduce the diameter of the hose (of a dust collector) to shopvac size, the suction becomes so aenemic that it's nearly worthless." I found the way around this was to arrange things so that the dust collector hose set up has some free air to suck as well as sucking from the smaller diameter of a shopvac size connection. That way the fan in the collector isn't cavitating and becoming inefficient. Not as good a connecting to a suitable shop vac but good enough. My suitcase style thicknesser has a 2" dust collection pipe. When I used a 2" to 4" adaptor to connect to my 4" dust collector, the thicknesser spat quite a few chips. A strategic hole in the connection hose to let in a bit more air solved the problem.Ditto with a contractors saw with a 2.5" dust connection.
I recently purchased the Grizzly G0548 2HP Cannister dust collector. I am satisfied with it. It does a good job of removing everything my 13 inch Planer can throw at it. The cannister is easy to clean and seems to do a great job of filtering fine dust.
Well, I have the Grizzly 1023slx TS, the 17"HD BS, and the 12" Grizzly jointer and a Delta drum sander and makita 12" planer. I also have a router table built from norms plans. I also have the Festool Domino, and the CT33e. For dust collection, the CT33e works great for the Domino, hand held power tools and the router table. However, the sear volume of dust I think would be a challenge for the ct33. I know it could not keep up with the jointer or the drum sander. I have a 2hp 220v Secco dust collector for all the big tools (had it for a very long time) I even suppliment both of those with an ambient dust filtration system from delta. Could you get by sure. Would I reccomend it, I don't think you would be satisfied. Thats just my two cents worth.
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it.
And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Edited 1/25/2009 6:49 pm by bones
I did not read every posting on your question, so if my post repeats -my apologies in advance. If cost is a lesser concern than good dust collection goto Clearvue cyclone dust collectors. If you have the inclination to read on dust collection I highly recommend Bill Pentz site. The dust collection issue was just posted over the last week, if you do a search for cyclone. Good luck
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