Are truing stones for flattening the surface of water stones worth it? I have a couple of water stones with dips in the middle and was considering buying a truing stone, but I think I read a post somewhere that they don’t work as good as they claim. Thoughts?
Mike
Replies
Mike,
Try using 120 grit drywall sanding screen on a flat piece of glass or a flat saw or jointer table . Place the screen down on a flat surface and run the stone over it . Then vacuum the dust with a shop vac.
Process is quick,easy and inexpensive.
Jabe
Thanks Jabe! I will try it.
http://www.mvflaim.com
Hi Jabe,
Your tip worked great!
Thanks
http://www.mvflaim.com
Glad to hear it.
Regards
Jabe
>Are truing stones for flattening the surface of water stones worth it?<
YES ! If . . .
you use your stones a lot and you want the fastest results with the flattest stones for the most precise edge possible. One can get buy and pay less. If results rather than bucks is the main thing these will bring a smile to your face.
http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=47298.4
roc
Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Which truing stone?
I have the norton stone. Garbage. Dished out very badly, very quickly.
I was thinking about this one.
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=55067&cat=1,43072,43071&ap=1
Not sure if they are worth it or should I buy a diamond stone like Chris and Derek suggests.
I still haven't tried the 120 grit drywall sanding screen on glass yet. I'll try that first since I have some laying around and see how the results are.
Mike
http://www.mvflaim.com
These are wear resistant and practical. Like I said yah gotta pay the nut for the good stuff.http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=01%2E090&dept_id=13122rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Thanks for the link. I'll put that one on my Christmas wish list instead.
Mike
http://www.mvflaim.com
If you're doing a Christmas list, I'd suggest the desired diamond stone, instead. Diamond (stones) are a boy's best friend, ya know. Of course, that might cost ya in other, reciprocal, ways. ;-)
Of course, that might cost ya in other, reciprocal, ways. ;-)
I hear ya brother! : )
http://www.mvflaim.com
Edited 11/28/2009 1:43 pm ET by mvflaim
>one on my Christmas wish list instead.<I hope you are able to read the old post that i posted a link to above. The gist of it is that the pink stone is not necessarily flat from the manufacturer and one needs the flat diamond plate to flatten it but once flat it lasts and is faster to flatten your other stones on than the diamond plate. Doesn't mean you need to get both but I think the diamond plate is the must have first if only getting one.What the heck I will post the whole mess again here sorry allA chunk of glass may not be flat.I just went to the shop for a little research. I put this stonehttp://www.highlandwoodworking.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=63on the surface plate. Not a hint of rocking or gap between stone and surface plate.Then I tried this stonehttp://www.highlandwoodworking.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1582Again not a hint of rocking or gap between stone and surface plate ! ! !I use the latter to flatten thishttp://www.japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=01%2E090&dept_id=13122The pink stone with the slots I use for flattening my other stones because the deep slots allow the slurry a place to go rather than build up on the diamond plates.For those who think sharpening stuff is cheep we are up to about three hundred dollars, not including the surface plate to check the diamond stones, and we have hardly begun.Maybe it would be a good idea to at least put your glass on one of those cheepo black surface plates at Woodcraft etc just for a second opinion.The pink stone with the deep slots seen in the third link above did not come flat, so be ware, but was easy enough to flatten on the diamond plate.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 11/29/2009 11:02 pm by roc
Roc,
Why not use Charlesworth's ruler trick to do the backs of plane blades?Here is a link to the Lie Nielsen website's pdf on sharpening. http://www.lie-nielsen.com//pdf/Sharpening.pdfThey recommend use of a flat grind (no grinding wheels) and a secondary bevel. eg 25 deg bevel and 30 deg secondary, and then the ruler trick on the back. It works. Even I have done it. Once you see how quickly and how well it works, one can become quickly converted. I spent too much of my life flattening the backs of plane irons. No need any more!I went to the Lie Nielsen show in Frederick, MD a few weeks ago. All of their plane irons are sharpened using the ruler trick, and they cut pretty well (understatement). I have used it, but I went to Catholic School, so whenever I take what I think is a shortcut, I feel guilty. After seeing Deneb and others do it, and after doing it and getting great results FAST, I am not sure why anyone would ever flatten the back of a plane iron again. EXCEPT sometimes when you use the ruler trick on an old plane iron that is REALLY out of flat, then you will see that you dont get a nice shiny line all along the edge. THen you do have to do a bit of flattening the old way before using the ruler trick. However, I doubt that any modern blade from LN or LV or any of the other makers of good planes would need any work before using the ruler trick. I can take an iron out of a new LN box and have it in super shape in less than a few minutes. If I am "doing a show", I could probably do it in less than 60 seconds, but why rush? Just trying to help.
Mel
Edited 11/30/2009 3:04 pm ET by 9619
>Why not use Charlesworth's ruler trick to do the backs of plane blades?<I have. When I am in a rush with a new tool and need to get the back polished down next to the edge.I looked for the statement that even Mr. Charleseworth flattens the whole back when he has time and that the ruler thing was to get his classes going quicker when he has students who want to use their own tools but have shoddy blades.Now. I don't like the ruler thing generally. Here is why from what I remember ( when I actually do it I could point out one or two others that have slipped my mind) :• The ruler pops loose and slides off the stone about the time I am concentrating on the sharpening.
• To get enough contact/suction to hold the ruler I have to sharpen across the narrow width of the stone and run the blade on and off the side of the stone to get any "feet per minute".
• I tend to like to go in one direction then lift and return this gets tedious with the short stroke of the ruler method and even less "feet per minute". I wind up abrading/sharpening in both push and pull and that wears the stone because in one direction the blade "planes the stone". Bad form that.
• I can not spread the wear over the whole surface of the stone as easily. With a normal veritas sharpening roller jig I turn the stone and sharpen on both "ends" and across the whole width.
• The ruler changes the geometry of the sharpening angle I don't like that.
• If you picture the actual travel of the blade it is in an arc not a flat plane so the abraded area is a convex. That and the stone wearing and wearing unevenly from stone to stone, the white norton gouges easily though I like the stone, then we are back to as Larry said wearing the blade down to fit the curve of the dished stone. I don't like that.
• Messing up the flatness of the stones in one small area then effects the ability to sharpen the other side of the blade while using the roller jig.As I said there are probably other things I don't like about the ruler but that is enough. I am tired now.It does work but it is sloppy. Even Charleseswoth says this.If you like it and you get along GO FOR IT.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 12/2/2009 12:45 am by roc
Roc,
I don't try to convince people of things. That is too frustrating. I only put ideas up for consideration. I read your reasons for not liking the ruler trick, and you are passionate about them, as you are about everything. I watched Deneb do it at the LN show. You can see him do it on You Tube. The directions are in the pdf that I gave the address for. It only takes about 20 strokes, on and off the stone (the short way) to put the back bevel on initially, and less than half of that to freshen it. It literally takes a few seconds, and that little work does not do much harm to the stone. It may be "sloppy", as you say. I don't know what that means. It works like a charm. I know what that means. Like I said, I went to Catholic school, so accepting the idea of "short cuts" makes me feel guilty, but I have learned to get over it. I think you'll be happier doing it the standard way.Have fun. Nothing else counts.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Surprised no one has mentioned the approached shown in one of Rob Cosman's videos. Using 1000 and 4000 grit waterstones, he kept two 1000 stones in the water bath. After a fair amount of work on the face of one 1000 stone, to the point where it might have a dished out area, he put down the tool being sharpened and picked up the second 1000 grit stone. Rub one side of it against the (down) 1000 grit stone several times, then turn over the (up) stone and rub the other side of it against the down stone several times. The theory is that abrading the two stones against each other using all four pairs of surfaces will bring all four surfaces level and flat.
It seems to work for me with one caveat. Initially I was rubbing the two stones with a circular motion, and eventually I realized the edges were lower than the middle of the surfaces. Now I hold the upper stone perhaps 25-30 degrees to the lower, and move it parallel to the sides of the lower stone. This seems to have eleminated rolling over the edges.
I still use parallel pencil lines to gauge when the lower stone is flat.
I have a grooved 200 grit stone, but rubbing the two 1000 grit stones against each other is much faster. Granted, it lessens the working life of the second stone, but the tradeoff is a savings in time. Just my two cents, hoping not to get flamed for mentioning RC of his idea.
Don,
I have Rob's video on sharpening, and I saw him do a class late last year. In the class he was using Shapton's and the Shapton diamond flattening stone. Rob continually makes changes in what he presents. He says that keeps his material "fresh". He told us about the two Canadian guys who had the router show on TV. They had gone into oblivion, even though they were good. Rob's explanation was that they kept doing the same stuff, and didn't continually come up with fresh material. I worked for NASA for decades. NASA field centers had large numbers of "super flat" granite plates for use in laser work. They have to be certified every so often. You can flatten them to within tolerances by taking three of them and rubbing two of them together and then switching off one of them, etc etc etc. BUT YOU CAN"T insure two are flat if you just have two, as Rob did. The reason is that the two can become mirror images of the other (eg one is concave and one convex. I suppose that If you consider that with two 1000 grit stones, you have four sides, then you could get them flat.Gotta tell ya. It is MUCH MUCH easier to do with a piece of sandpaper on a granite block. Just put a pencil grid on the sharpening stone and rub it on the sandpaper on the granite plate. It takes less than a minute, and the sucker if FLAT. I used to use diamond stones, but it was easy to see that they weren't flat. I don't know if they were far off enough to make a difference, but since the granite plate is so easy, I just use that now for flattening waterstones.Besides, if you use the Lee Nielsen sheet fromhttp://www.lie-nielsen.com//pdf/Sharpening.pdfyou spend so little time on the 1000 and 8000 grit stones, that the need to flatten them goes down significantly. I really recommend downloading and reading that simple method and see how fast, easy and well it works. The proof is in the pudding. I saw it at one of their shows. I went home and tried it. I now wonder why I used to spend so much time sharpening. But, some people love to spend time sharpening. While I love sharp tools, I like to do woodwork, not sharpening, so I try to get sufficiently sharp tools with minimum muss and fuss. Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
"The proof is in the pudding. I saw it at one of their shows."
I'd like to hear more about using pudding to sharpen with. Stove top or instant? Vanilla or lemon? It sounds messy, but clean up would be a treat!
What's next, stropping with merinque in lieu of tripoli?
Ray
Ray,
Wow, is tripoli something you can strop with?I know the song, where it goes "to the shores of Tripoli." From that song, I guessed that Tripoli is an ocean or a lake.MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
It shore is something. For buffing, it is tripoli better than anything else. But I think you are pudding me on.
Ray
Ruler trick...
I became a convert at a LN show. They had a new plane up and going in about 2 minutes... and he was demonstrating.
That said is the new lapping that LV and LN do on their plane blades and chisels it's not too much work to get them "flat". It's more of a matter of polishing.
I think the trick is very usefull in cases where: 1) The blade is very poor, 2) Use lacks course stones, 3) User lacks Skill, and 4) User lacks time.
Ruler trick...
One of the things that makes life interesting is that there are many ways of doing the same thing.
I do not like using the Ruler Trick for plane blades unless they have pitted backs.
The RT makes it very difficult to strop the back of the blade (if you are not into stropping, then this is not an issue). It also makes it difficult to tell when the wire edge has been removed.
Regards from Perth
Derek
"It also makes it difficult to tell when the wire edge has been removed"
Now that is interesting. How do you normally confirm that the burr has been removed?Philip Marcou
Hi Philip
Generally I find the easiest way to tell if there is a wire edge is to feel for it. As an aside, this is one of the reasons I remove the wire edge at the end of a stone so that I can tell if the whole (micro) bevel has been honed.
The problem with a microbevel via the Rule Trick is that it drops the back of the bevel below the level of the back of the blade. As a result, when you run your finger over where the wire edge should be, it is not there to be felt.
I strop blades between honings, and I do this freehand. This makes stropping the back of a blade with a Ruled Tricked microbevel impossible. You are simply likely to round over an edge. If you use the RT to strop, then it becomes laborious as you can only pull the blade back and never push it forward (the leather will be cut, unlike the surface of a stone).
Regards from Perth
Derek
"If you use the RT to strop, then it becomes laborious as you can only pull the blade back and never push it forward "Derek,Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but it reads to me like you normally strop on the forward and back stroke. Is that correct? I always thought that stropping dictated drawing the tool back along the strop, never forwards.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Hi Chris
I strop by pulling the blade backward on the diagonal. What I was writing was that you cannot do this with the RT, since it is designed to do fore-and-back. Since you cannot do forward with a blade on leather (it will slice the leather) all you are left with is a short rear movement. Not practical at all.
Here is a link to stropping on leather:
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/Stroppingwithgreenrougeversesdiamondpaste.html
Stropping the back of a chisel (or substitute a BD plane blade here):Note that the blade is angled at 45 degrees, held flat, and pulled towards oneself (i.e. sharp end trailing). Do not push the blade bevel first - it will slice up the leather.And here is the RT on a strop ...
View Image
Regards from Perth
Derek
Gotcha. Do you only hold the chisel at 45 degrees to allow clearance for the handle?Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,
When honing, I hold the blade at 47 degrees, not 45. I try to keep the bench level, and I try to keep things at room temperature.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,If I am only honing, I also prefer to work at room temperature. However, if I am doing heavy material removal, I prefer to work at -20 degrees becuase the blade has much less of a tendancy to heat up. You might think that the cold would get to me, but sharpenings go so fast because I don't have to cool down the tool that I don't get cold. Just make sure not to lick the blade!Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
I think you'd be happier with anything other than that flattening stone.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Okay thanks. I'll take it off my Christmas list.
http://www.mvflaim.com
That's the exact one I have. Avoid it. I'll dig up the pictures of how dished out mine became after limited use.
I'd go with the diamond stone.
Okay thanks for the warning.
http://www.mvflaim.com
I use a diamond stone to flatten my waterstones. While I use and like the Norton waterstones, I do not like the 220 grit stones, the flattening stone inclusive. They wear too fast, and I don't like the feel of them.
and www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Hi Mike
As Chris suggests, a diamond stone is a better deal than a branded stone for flattening a waterstone. My choice is a 10" DMT Extra Coarse diamond stone (275 grit). These are flat and stay flat (= peace of mind), and will stay sharp as long as they are dedicated to the waterstone and not used on steel. The downside is the cost, but then they should last a lifetime. I have not used a (e.g.) Norton flattening stone, but hear that they need flattening themselves every now-and-then. That is something that will preoccupy negatively you if you are serious about flat waterstones.
Regards from Perth
Derek
"will stay sharp as long as they are dedicated to the waterstone and not used on steel"Derek,Can you elaborate on that point?Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Hi Chris
In my experience, and many others, diamond stones are not forever. I wore out a few (no, not wore in) on blades. Eventually I realised that the diamonds were either wearing out or the diamonds were falling out. I'm far from knowledgable about the metallurgy involved, but Larry Williams has written a fair amount on the subject. He uses diamond stones to flatten and refresh his oilstones. Perhaps he will chime in as it is a pet subject of his.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,I have heard that diamond stones do wear out, but am curious why they would wear out with steel, but not with abrasive stones.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
>diamond stones do wear out, but am curious why they would wear out with steel, but not with abrasive stones<Let me say this about that until the calvary arrives and gives you the whole story. I find I really NEED coarse or extra coarse diamond stones to flatten a blade back that is less than stellar. Any thing else takes too long. Heck diamond stones take too long if the blade is hard/tough and out much.Flattening backs I find I must press hard no matter what the diamond stones manufacture claims. I have gone light for long periods and a few blades. Nah dude nah takes ages with the modern steels.Flattening backs beats up diamond stones. They still cut but not like when new. I think the very hard steel being relatively flat nocks the points off the diamonds.My gut feel is flattening stones on the diamond stones might freshen diamond stones some. The stones actually being easier to flatten than a steel blade due to friability and so they wear and get down between the diamond chips and maybe sharpen them. I can't prove that. I wish I could find my info on friability of abrasives and the sources for that info. I always run across it in the files when I am not looking for it now.The stones being flattened are harder material than the steel but being fragile breaks and chips creating sharp fresh cutting edges on the grit of the stones being flattened. The steel does not break it resists wear.I hope that makes some sense. It is making me cross eyed trying to verbalize it.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Chris,I'm a little short of time right now so I hope you'll forgive a link to a post on another site about this:http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=1232788#poststop
Thanks for the info Larry. That answered my question. I suppose you could have copied and pasted that message into this forum, but no matter. Very interesting. And I think that you may have done the unthinkable: convince me to consider oil stones. But still I'd rather clean water off my hands than oil. However, I no longer regard oil stones as obsolete (save for use on some carving tools).Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Hi Chris
Don't be too quick to discard your waterstones for oil stones. I had hoped Larry would chime in about the diamond stones (as I mentioned in an earlier post), with a view to commenting on the longevity of diamond stones, per se.
I am unsure whether either Larry or myself is in a position to compare Oils stones versus waterstones since I do not have direct experience of oilstones, and I am not aware whether Larry uses waterstones (being such an ardent fan of oilstones as he is). However, what I do know is that some steels are very slow to be cut on oilstones, particularly A2. If you use A2 in your planes or chisels, then you may be better off with your waterstones. I emphasise that my understanding here comes from the reports of others, not direct comparison. Perhaps we will hear from those who have hands-on experience.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,I am certainly not even considering ditching my waterstones in favour of oilstones, but would consider trying one. Someday. Perhaps. Prior to his post, (pardon my ignorance) I thought that only people unaware of water stones used oil stones.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
> but would consider trying one. Someday.<Hey if you see a two for one sale I will go in with you. A nice translucent one maybe.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
> That's why I want flat stones. What they do is repeatable and the next time I have that tool on the stone, I can pick up right where I left off. When I go from one stone to the next, the cut is in exactly the same place. I don't have to waste time abrading steel to make it conform to two, three or four different out-of-flat stones.<Exactly , Exactly , ExactlySo true !rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Derek,
Garrett Hack uses oilstones. See http://www.thewoodshop.20m.com/graphics/ScarySharpandOtherMethods-FWW140.pdfHe uses them with kerosene, and with different grades of diamond paste put on the oilstone.Larry, as you know, rubs his oilstones with a diamondstone to make some dust in order to keep the stone flat and make it cut quicker. Ray Pine uses two oilstones, but usually doesn't even go as far as the translucent hard arkansas, and he makes some pretty fine pieces of furniture One can analyze things in many different ways, and do things in many different ways. How does one determine which one to use? I guess one could test them all, and find the 'best', but that would take forever. As you said, you haven't tried oilstones.If folks of the stature and capability of Hack, Lary and Ray, find oilstones to be fast enough and good enough for the work they do, I wouldn't entirely dismiss the idea of using oilstones. All three are professionals with a long and good record. By the way, we both use the 45 deg hold when using the leather strop, and we both just pull. But, I alternate strokes on the left and then the right of the strop. I hope to still be discussing sharpening when I am 105. THis is really fun. Oh well, time to get back to the shop.Enjoy,
Mel
PS - if you had pushed for the use of oilstones, I probably would have come up with some great names who use waterstones. :-) Someone took me seriously the other day. I straightened him out.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
>if you had pushed for the use of oilstones, I probably would have come up with some great names who use waterstones. :-) <You got it ! Play at all levels.>doesn't even go as far as the translucent hard arkansas<Yah but he is a professional ! Kids, don't try this at home.>time to get back to the shop.<The first time I read that I read : time to get back to the sTropI say never strop unless you need to strop. Then strop with abandon. Careful, well practiced, counting the strokes abandon. But abandon never the less.Oil stones . . . hmmmm I want one . . . but do i NEED one . . . hmmmm . . . or maybe it is time to order that Shapton 16000 stone . . . hmmmm. Looks like I have my Sunday all planned out. Consider all the options, weigh all the pluses and minuses, read all the reviews of both . . . THEN . . . SHOP !Wow ! Now there is a week end project I can really sink my teeth into.It's not easy being a woodworker.: )rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Roc,
You are a hoot! Great post. I put a lot of thought and work in my response to Derek. I hate to say it but I have been influenced by Christopher Schwartz. It seems to be his style to put together a book of articles and to include articles of different points of view, and in his own writing, he often includes the ideas of others which are different than his.I believe this style accurately reflects the state of woodworking, in which "personal beliefs/approaches/styles" are much more a factor in how people do things well, than what specific approaches and tools they use. In other words, if you learn how to use a technique or a tool well, and it works for you, that is all that it takes. Others do it differently. THE ROAD IS WIDE. I believe it is not useful to push a single way of doing things when we know that so many different approaches work.I got this idea from a banjo player named Peter Wernick, who wrote a book called "How to play and sing country music". Rather than use traditional musical notation, which he said were too "precise" to be accurate in describing how to sing country music, he developed another way of writing it down which is only as specific as necessary.That book, which I read back in 1980 or so, really affected my thinking about lots of things. When giving directions, don't be more speciic than nature calls for. If I have my way of doing things but others do is well and do it differently, then those techniques are good and valid as well.Which do you need more - a translucent Hard Arkansas or a 16,000 Shapton? INteresting question. That word "need" is a woodworker's biggest trap. So let me rephrase it my way. Which would I like to add to my collection first - a Translucent or a 16,000?I have never tried a 16K. I have talked to a number of others who have. Most seem to think that it doesn't add much, if anything. Besides, once you get the 16K, do you stop there or go for the 30k?Now IMHO, the translucent is a qualitatively different story. This is PERSONAL, not universal. The only sharpening stone that I enjoy (if that is an appropriate term for sharpening) is the Translucent. I don't feel that way about my soft ark, or my India stones, or my waterstones or sandpaper on glass. I don't know why.... It doesn't cut as fast as a waterstone, but what's the rush -- two minutes - one minute -- is this a race. There is a nice feel to the stone when you run the blade along it. I can feel the "cutting" action going on in a gently way. One time, Ray Pine mentioned that he uses Marvel Mystery Oil on his oilstones (or is it oilstone? :-) So I had to give it a try. Gotta tell you, there is a real difference. It is not as thick as mineral oil, and not as thin as kerosene. I have no idea whether it is "better", but I like the feel of the cutting action. There is another change I am going through. Did you notice that nowhere in this message did I advise you to try what I like or what I think is best for me. I do state what I like, and even why, if I can figure it out. I put it out there in case anyone else wants to try, but I am not recommending anything. If I give advice, it is "don't take anyone else's advice!" Instead, look at their ideas, check them out mentally, and if it still warrants it, in your mind, then try them out. Then you can make your own decisions. But then again, how can you trust someone who advises you not to take advice.Sorry if I gave you a headache. Go ride a bike. I do that pretty often too. Uh oh, I just gave you some advice. Ha ha ha ha ha.Have fun.
Mel
PS next time, lets talk about ceramic stones. I see more and more people going to Spyderco ceramic stones for some applications. You know, we could go on talking about sharpening for decades if not centuries, if our parts didn't wear out. And we would still be having just as much fun, and we still wouldn't be accomplishing anything. Uh oh. I think I have to stop. I may be getting carpal tunnel.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
>hate to say it but I have been influenced by Christopher Schwartz.<Why hate to say that. I really like the guy ! I enjoy and learn from his articles. I even own one of his books. ( PS: just came to me . . . he is the evil competition )>traditional musical notation, which he said were too "precise" to be accurate in describing how to sing country music, he developed another way of writing it down which is only as specific as necessary.<I just watched a fine documentary on some of the most notable "classical" pianists of all time. http://www.amazon.com/Art-Piano-Great-Pianists-Century/dp/B00004UF01/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1260160911&sr=1-1I got it from NetFlixThe people interviewed said that the best were the ones that were able to hear the music between the notes and lines and interpret the emotion intended and convey that even if they didn't play the piece as written note for note. Better explained in the DVD but maybe that is some of what you are talking about.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Roc"maybe it is time to order that Shapton 16000 "naw, go directly to the 30000 :)Boil
> 30000<fraid i'm gonna need an investment partner to get the 30.Wanna go in ?We can keep it going back and forth in the mail. Maybe rent it out to others to recoup.It's rare, it's purple . . . we could perhaps build a new religion around it and really make out . . . er I mean serve humanity.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
I'll go halfers. You can have one side, I'll have the other.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,
You had best make sure that "Sharpning Stones" are covered under NAFTA prior to starting a International rukus........
We have the CIA, I'm trying to remember the name of Canada's version? I heard that they were all Mounties that couldn't keep their Tazer's, in their pant's?? Or was that Holster??????
The ones that live live in what is it they call that big Black glass Building. I heard it's in Burnaby some where around Kingsway & Willingdon??????
Taigert
Taigert:
http://www.csis-scrs.gc.ca/index-eng.aspLeon
Leon,
Thats what it was CSIS, from what I've heard they make the CIA look like a bunch of Cub Scouts. There are some paranoid people in the big black building, from some of the News Paper articles I have read from Canada.
Taigert
Paranoia and distrust are part and parcel of the intelligence field, frequently they are well-justified.
Leon
It must be a tough a lifestyle to live
Taigert
It's very demanding psychologically. Frequently one can't "leave the job at work" and it affects relationships.Some spouses, family members, friends can deal with it, some can't.Service personnel have similar problems, the civilian world has little cognizance of what they do and why they do it. Some, in military intelligence and special operations, have both sets, i.e., can't talk outside of work and little or no cognizance of what they do. Couples working at different agencies still can't discuss their jobs at home, even though their spouse may have the same, or higher, clearance.It takes special people to do a very demanding job.Leon
Sounds kind of what my life was like for many years.
Taigert
>Frequently one can't "leave the job at work" and it affects relationships.<I know what you mean, i've seen all the James Bond movies.From Russia With Love, The Spy That Loved Me and For Your Eyes Only etc.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGp8EXRTNBEOooh La La !: )rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Hmmm. No idea.Edit: Now I do!Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com
and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com) - Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Edited 12/8/2009 12:46 am by flairwoodworks
Roc,
Religon = Tax Free Status, you maybe onto something here!
But that's a lot of paperwork to file with the IRS in order to get started there days.
Taigert
"Consider all the options, weigh all the pluses and minuses, read all the reviews of both . . . THEN . . . SHOP !Wow ! Now there is a week end project I can really sink my teeth into."Roc,You remind me of a Monty comic strip. Monty's on the phone with someone trying to arrange a date while looking at his calendar. "Thursday the eighth? No, I'm busy that day" and on the calendar, on the eighth, it says: "Buy socks".Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
>socks<THAT'S what I forgot again to buy !ThanksrocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Chris,Actually, I did use water stones for several years. I found the experience to be an exercise in frustration. I started out with oil stones and switched to water stones when I couldn't find a good way to keep oil stones flat. Contrary to a lot of information out there, oil stones dish and do so relatively quickly though not nearly as quickly as water stones.Let me explain my frustration. My first rule of sharpening is to make sure that the current sharpening effort sets the stage for the next. I want to avoid doing anything that will complicate my next sharpening. That's why I want flat stones. What they do is repeatable and the next time I have that tool on the stone, I can pick up right where I left off. When I go from one stone to the next, the cut is in exactly the same place. I don't have to waste time abrading steel to make it conform to two, three or four different out-of-flat stones.I found that sharpening just one chisel or plane iron left my stones with different levels of flatness. Sharpen one tool and I have to flatten all my stones again? I spent more time flattening stones than sharpening. Think about that, a tool that requires more maintenance time than it gives in use? I can't think of much that's more inefficient or frustrating.Water stones are messy and take a large dedicated space. The water and slurry from water stones has the same ingredients as some ebonizing concoctions. A damp finger print turns black, an errant drop does the same. I don't wait for a tool to become a problem, I sharpen as soon as I see evidence of degrade in performance. I hated constantly digging stones out of the tub and setting up. There was just too much tinkering around.My oil stones are easy to keep flat. I'm never dealing with more liquid than I can completely wipe up multiple times with a single rag. Soap even works better, it breaks down the oil but not the metal embedded in every pore, wrinkle, cuticle and everything else on the human hand. My fingernails don't have those fine black outlines anymore. It's easy to feel if I have oil on my hands and easy to simply wipe off. I can even wipe an oily fingerprint off a piece of wood with mineral spirits and a rag.My honing area can easily fit in a couple square feet and have ample space. It's always set up and ready to go. It's easy to clean up after use and never causes rusting problems on my tools.Sharpening isn't a barrier for me. When I walk away from the bench to hone just one a tool, I'm back in less than two minutes. The stones are ready for the next time I need them, there's nothing I need to put away or clean up. It's all done. I never had that with water stones.Think about it, India stones and most man-made oil stones contain the same abrasive--aluminum oxide. They're bonded together differently. Dealing with India stone bonding is easy with an extra coarse diamond stone. For me dealing with the water stone bonding took a lot of time, too much space and required a health dose of aspirin for the headaches.It doesn't matter to me what method others prefer for sharpening. I know what works for me. When I see others comment about long sharpening sessions, most of their tools being dull, or putting off sharpening; I surmise the system they've chosen isn't working well for them. Unfortunately, I see those kind of comments on woodworking forums almost every day.
Edited 12/1/2009 10:11 pm by lwilliams
"It doesn't matter to me what method others prefer for sharpening. I know what works for me. When I see others comment about long sharpening sessions, most of their tools being dull, or putting off sharpening; I surmise the system they've chosen isn't working well for them."Larry,I think that that is the key - finding what works for you. Some people perfer water stones. Others perfer oil stones, and others still perfer sandpaper and glass. Some perfer power systems, others manual. Many use jigs, many don't. It doesn't matter how you sharpen, as long as it works for you.My first rule of sharpening is maintenance. Don't let them get dull. When I touch up my tools, I use my gold 8000x Norton waterstone. It doesn't need to be soaked, so I just splash a little water on the surface and draw the tool backwards along the stone a few times, lap off the burr on the back, and go back to work. Seconds, really. I'm not saying my way is better, just that it works for me. And that's what counts.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
I have 800 and 6000 grit waterstones and flatten them with sandpaper over a piece of plate glass (melamine is also recommended as a good flat surface). I use 120 grit sandpaper for the 800 & 220 grit for the 6000. Relatively cheap & works for me.
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