I need to vent a bit, and this is kind of windbaggy, so bail now if you’re not in the mood.
I’ve recently been on a major handplane acquisition binge; not sure of the impetus or why it continues because I have not traditionally used much more than a block plane, #4, or small shoulder plane. My ardor goes on unabated, however.
At any rate, all those planes have irons which need sharpening. In the past I have not cared all that much, and done a half-azzed job and got half-azzed results. Now, however, I’m trying to get serious. I so doing, I can see why people have completely given up on hand tools.
Sharpening sux.
Now before anyone jumps up and down, I am not a fetishist. While I have several grits of waterstones, I use but 2 or 3. What I am attempting to do is get a consistent grit pattern at one level then move to the next, and finish with a decent polish. Not shaving-clear, but clear enough that there are as few odd scratches as possible. It seems like an easy goal, but it has proven to be anything but.
Tonight’s misadventure: I was flattening the back of a brand-new 2″ wide iron. I started on a 220 grit diamond stone, then moved onto the 325 grit side. SFSG. All of that looked good, then I moved onto my 1k grit Shapton. I worked that for a bit, letting the stone do the work (i.e. not applying too much pressure) and eventually I got what looked to be a fairly consistent scratch pattern, and it was fairly polished, as well. Satisfied, I moved onto my 4k grit Shapton. I checked my progress after about a minute, and it was actually DULLER than it was off the 1k stone. Huh? Shouldn’t it be the other way around?
I went back to the 1k grit, got a consistent pattern again, then went directly to the 8k stone. Talk about uneven. Some areas were nicely polished; some looked as though I had worked them with a belt sander. I went and flattened the stones and started over; i worked my way through 5 grits of waterstones, and so on. An hour later, I still didn’t have a nice, polished back.
Of course this got me quite angry and I darn near threw something until I realized that everything was quite expensive, so I resisted that temptation. I gave up, because it was good enough, I reasoned, and decided to work the bevel (bezel if you swing that way). I just worked a microbevel so I didn’t waste my time working the whole bevel. That went quickly and I checked it with a square. Of course it wasn’t square!! (I did this in a jig.) Another 15 minutes and lots of pressure on the “off” side and I had it reasonably straight. At this point I was thoroughly disgusted and just gave up. Of course it cut fine, but I’m thinking I could have gotten the same results in 3o minutes rather than nearly 90.
I know I am doing something wrong; I just can’t figure out what. Am I wrong in thinking that a 4k grit stone should leave a face more polished than a 1k grit stone? Why would it not? After flattening the stones and all, wouldn’t you think that I would get a fairly consistent pattern at each grit? Is my experience unusual?
This is what frustrates me so much. I am largely self-taught but this is one skill that doesn’t seem to lend itself to that-without a frame of reference I feel like I am doomed to repeat my mistakes over and over. This is a real PITA and it’s got me thinking about giving up altogether. Well, not really, but you get the idea. I know that there are those out there who view this almost as a religion, and I’m not one of them, but it seems some of that attitude has crept in somewhat.
OK, rant off. Thanks.
Most nights are crystal clear, but tonight it’s like he’s stuck between stations.
Replies
Anytime you go from one waterstone to another and the results are uneven, it's time to flatten the stones. If you watch any of Harrelson Stanley's videos, he's constantly re-flattening his stones. If I'm doing major work on the back of a new blade, I find that I may need to re-flatten the stones a couple of times during the process for just the one blade.
Your experience with the blade apparently getting duller when going from 1000 to 4000 is not unexpected. I won't go into the technical details, but suffice to say that this is a Poppa/Momma/Baby Bear sort of thing: The scattering of light is greatest when the size of the scratches is comparable to the wavelength of light. When the scratches are larger, the surface looks scratched, but shiny (too big). When the scratches are smaller, the surface looks smooth and shiny (too small). When the scratches are roughly the same size as the wavelength of light, the surface looks dull and relatively dark (just right).
There are other factors that play into this, too. The relative size and hardness of the crystallites in the steel affect the appearance as well. In fact, when you sharpen a laminated Japanese chisel, you can't tell that there's a difference in the layers when you're grinding with the coarser grits. At 1000 grit, you can start to see a difference in reflectivity. At 4000 grit, boom, the two layers are perfectly delineated. At 8000 grit, you can still see the difference, but it's less prominent.
Rest assured that it gets easier with experience, as you get a feel for the stones and the steel. I still mess up occasionally and have to start over from the coarse stone.
As for ensuring that the edge is perpendicular to the sides of the blade, I use a Veritas Mark II honing guide to hold the blade, and a small machinist's square to ensure that the cutting edge is square to the sides. If I'm off, it's easy to tap the back end of the blade on one side or the other (without loosening the clamps) to shift it ever so slightly in the jig. If I'm sharpening chisels, I just use the wooden handle of one chisel to tap the handle of the one in the jig. If I'm sharpening plane blades, I use a small rubber hammer (or the edge of the countertop if I'm too lazy to go get the hammer).
-Steve
Steve
We must have been typing at the exact same time.......I'm just a little longer winded, I guess. <G>
Jeff
And we must have been typing at the same time as well!
Philip Marcou
Are you sure the correct descriptive isn't "long-windier"? Sorry, couldn't resist. This thread, especially the OP, is entertaining for it's "human" quality.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Nah, I think you were slower because all of your energy is leaking out of those holes they punched into you at the hospital.
-Steve
Thanks Steve.
I am using the Veritas Mk II as well, and the registration jig seems to work well. How small is that square you use to check it? The smallest I have is an old Bridge City square, which is about 4", I think, and it's too big in either plane to check the blade in reference to the jig. I can fiddle around with it when I get home, but how do you do it (if you don't mind my asking)?
I do remember watching Harrelson sharpen and flatten his stones constantly, and he is one of the fetishists I refer to-sometimes I think the whole point of what he is doing is just sharpening for the sake of it, and I'm trying to avoid going down that road. But, success leaves clues, so that makes sense.
BTW when you are flattening, how much pressure do you use on the iron? I keep hearing "let the stone do the work" but that seems like it might take until the turn of the century sometimes.
Most nights are crystal clear, but tonight it's like he's stuck between stations.
I use a square that has a 6" long arm and a 4" short arm. A smaller one would be better, but it's the smallest that I have. (Thanks--now I have a rationalization to buy a new tool!) Here it is in action:
View Image
I register the edge of the short arm against the side of the blade (a chisel in this case), and gauge the parallelism of the long arm with respect to the jig by eye. The angle isn't as far off as it looks--I just don't have enough fingers to hold everything in place with one hand while taking a photo with the other (no lovely assistants around this time of day).
As for the pressure while honing, don't forget that the downward force you apply is spread out over the surface area that's being ground, so a 1/4" chisel back will practically hone itself by its own weight, but you do need to lean into a 2" plane blade back a bit. A 2" plane blade does cut relatively slowly on a diamond plate; my hypothesis is that the swarf can't clear as easily, as even a lot of downward pressure doesn't help as much as one would expect. So I rinse a lot, but I haven't done the controlled experiment to determine whether or not it really helps.
-Steve
Hey, thanks for the photo; that's what I had in mind when you mentioned it but I needed to see to make sure.
Most nights are crystal clear, but tonight it's like he's stuck between stations.
JJV
First of all, don't give up. Sharpening tools goes hand in hand with using them. If you don't learn to sharpen them, you'll never really know what they're capable of.
I don't use Shapton's, so I'm not familiar with them, in particular. I don't know if you're using a ceramic stone, or a conventional water stone.
The first key is that all of your stones have to be dead flat. When you rub an iron on a waterstone, it very quickly dishes out, and requires constant flattening. This reason alone is why I rarely use my water stones. I've got a few very expensive japanese stones, but I don't pull them out because I've grown tired of the mess, and all the stone flattening.
However, for the sake of argueing that you're not going to switch to a much easier form of sharpening, you just need to be consistant with your approach. The initial flattening of the back of a new blade takes the most time, but once you've prepped it properly, you won't have to revisit that nightmare for quite a while, assuming you don't drop the iron. After subsequential resharpenings of your bevel, or microbevel, you will simply have to remove the burr on the backside by just a dozen or so passes on the 8000 stone..............that's it.
So, unless you want to switch to 3M paper on a piece of granite, then relax.......make sure your stones aren't dished out, and flatten them regularly when doing heavy work......I mean check them every 10 minutes.
The reason why you're having an uneven polish is because you still have high spots and low spots. When you move to the next higher grit of polish, you're removing less steel with each pass than the previous stone. This can only be caused by one of two flaws in your technique...... you either have stones that aren't flat, or you are rocking the blade just enough to create the lack of flatness.
Work on it, and don't get so frustrated. In no time, you'll hit your rythym, and frustration will be a thing of the past.
If all else fails, throw em' in your car, and drive to my shop in Crystal Lake, Illinois. I'll have you all straightened out in an hour or two.
Jeff
Thanks Jeff.
Shaptons are ceramic stones and are supposed to be much harder and require less maintainance than the Kings stones that Iw as used to. I've tried the sandpaper method and, while that worked well, to me it was as much of a hassle to keep changing all the dull paper allt he time. It seemed kind of wasteful. Anyway, I got good results with the one Shapton stone I had so I got more.
You're telling me things I "know", but just don't want to believe, I guess. I'm no novice, but as I said I have never received any formal training at this so everything I do is a best-guess. It's easier to work out furniture construction, in my mind, than it is to work out "how sharp is sharp" and figure out what the hey I am doing wrong.
Thanks for the input. I'll make sure to flatten the stones before, during, and after the process to see if it works better. I have a couple more irons to work through so I'm sure I'll figure out if I am on the right path pretty quickly.
Most nights are crystal clear, but tonight it's like he's stuck between stations.
No need to give up.
I think Steve raised some useful points and if I were you I would attend to those stones first: I suggest you flatten them with a diamond plate (preferably a coarse cheap one glued to a block)- not only does this level them quickly but most importantly it conditions them so that they cut better-same effect as a dresser on a bench grinder wheel. I was averse to using my good diamond plate for this, and after I read what Larry Williams said I bought a cheapy and am highly impressed with the result- works especially well on manmade oil stones.
Then I would stop concentrating on how shiney the steel is-concentrate on honing an even bevel and removing the burr completely. Get the backs as flat as possible. Then try the planes on some wood.
If you have any spare blades, and you feel that you have not managed to get the backs as flat as you think they should be, then you could try honing the very smallest of back bevels-the very smallest....As per the sometime (unfortunately) maligned ruler trick....
Hope that helps.
Thanks Philip.
You know, it's funny-last night, aft erthe first go-round on the 1k stone, the back was fairly polished, but it was uneven. So I flattened the stone on the diamond "stone", and the change in the cutting action was dramatic. That was the first thing I thought of-I had deglazed the stone and made it do its job better.
I don't give up easily, but I do get frustrated easily, and that's what led to my rant last night. I have several more irons to sharpen so I'll keep on plugging away.
Thanks again.
Most nights are crystal clear, but tonight it's like he's stuck between stations.
Edited 3/5/2008 10:12 am ET by JJV
Well maybe this is a crude view but here goes. I admire ultra slick sharpening aesthetically but don't bother with it. Shaving with my tools could probably be done on occasion, but this would qualify you to be a Roman centurion or Mohawk warrior. The enemy would flee just knowing what you went through doing your coiffure.
It is my opinion that sharpening isn't a chore at all when it is
done in context- you need to chisel or plane something specific, so you sharpen for that task. A set of tools then gradually gets excellently shaped and sharpened in the long process. More important than a mirror finish or surgical sharpness is the basic shape of the edge- with time, it gets easier and quicker and the tools gradually get to the point where a few freehand swipes is all it takes.
The one thing that absolutely must be established from the beginning is the flat face, in my opinion. What I do is kind of randomly switch hands and turn the stone around- this way if you're favoring pressure with one hand, or one area of the stone, you cancel it out. Faster flat face and stones stay flat longer.
So my sharpening advice is this: build furniture. If you use very tough woods and joinery that requires real precision, you will be forced to go beyond "half-azzed", without even realizing it.
Other than just doing whatever it takes to get the task at hand done and letting everything fall into place in the process, there's only one real great "secret" of sharpening and woodwork, which I've never seen mentioned: natural daylight. Even dark winter days are better than artificial light. Those "sunlight" kinds of bulbs are pretty good too. Bright light does not equal good light.
Just opinions, you know what they say about opinions.
take care,
-Cameron Bobro
Edited 3/5/2008 3:04 am ET by Bobro
Thanks Cameron.
I do a lot of the same thing-I'll work one side of the stone, then the other, and sometimes the middle just for fun. And I agree with you-I am not sharpening for the sake of it; I'm sharpening so that my planes cut wood. These days my shop is too cold for much vigorous furniture-making, so I'm prepping the tools for the warmer times. That way I can get to it.
I will say that lately, my effrots have not gone for naught; everything I've sharpened cuts well, IMO. I just don't know if I am expending needless effort or if it could be any sharper.
Like you, "shaving sharp" always seemed futile to me; sure, it's fun to show off that really nice edge, but it doesn't last too long under use, so why bother?
Most nights are crystal clear, but tonight it's like he's stuck between stations.
J,
Whever I read about waterstones, oilstones and so forth I wonder why folk continue with them. They seem to require more effort to maintain than do the planes blades to sharpen! Are they just another superseded technology that folk hang on to for the sake of familiarity and tradition? (Which is fine with me).
I do this, which (via trial and error) seems to have resulted in a very rapid sharpening procedure that works:
1) Use a good diamond plate or plates to flatten the back near the edge (about 1 inch to 1/2 inch, assuming the blade is not warped. I use 325 grit; 600; 1200. It doesn't take more than a few minutes unless the blade is warped, hollowed or otherwise naff. (The new LV blade backs, for example, are now machine-polished to be absolutely flat and need only a quick mirror-polish near their edge, ie the step 2 procedure for the blde-back, below).
1a) If you need to make a new bevel, use a grinder, Tormek or some other machine to do the bulk work. If the bevel required is already there (eg new LN or LV) then...
2) Use a jig (I like the Veritas Mk II with the barrel roller) to put on a 1 or 2 degree microvevel using: 600;1200 diamond plate. Then polish up that microbevel (blade still in the jig) with the magic microgrit papers of 2400;6000;10,000 on a piece of flat MDF sitting on a flat surface like your TS top. (Obsessive folk buy a machinists granite block or some other guaranteed flat surface but this is not realy needed). Use a side-to-side motion for the final rubs on the microgrit, to avoid any micro-dubbing.
2a) Put on a Charlesworth style ruler-trick back bevel if you like with the 2400;6000,10,000; but otherwise just give the previously flattened area of the blade-back the 2400;6000,10,000 treatment to mirror-polish it. (Side to side rubs). You may or may not see a tiny wire drop of the edge.
You will then have a nice sharp edge. If you use a good jig like that Veritas you will also have a 90 degree edge, with any required small amount of curvature or camber.
3) When the blade stops cutting to the quality you require, hone it up freehand on the MDF with 10,000 (or maybe 6000;10,000) using the bevel to set the angle then tipping the blade forward a slight amount to approximate that 1 or 2 degree microbevel. It doesn't matter if you put on a 3 degree micro-bevel as the operative word is "micro" - an extra micro-bevel you can hardly see is best. Try to rock the blade to also rehone the whole length of any camber, if there is one. Give the back a few rubs (ruler trick or flat) at the same time.
The light grey microgrit papers will blacken in a line, if you move the blade side-to-side, as metal is rubbed off the edge. This helps guide you in getting the right angle to make a new microbevel. It takes only a very few rubs.
4) When you have free-honed a few times and it stops working, go to step 2 and redo the microbevel and back. I find I need to do this after 3 or 4 hand-guided rehones.
***
This works for me very well. Assuming no need for extensive blade back flattening or a new bevel, none of these steps takes more then a few minutes. The touch-up honing takes less than 60 seconds (not counting getting the blade out and putting it back).
When the current bits of microgrit papers get blackened-up all over with rubbed-off metal, I chuck them and use new bits. One sheet seems to last ages and they cost just a few dollars a sheet. I'm only on my second sheet(s) after a year. A diamond plate can be washed easily in water and never needs flattening, soaking or any of that other high maintenance neeed by them stone thangs.
Lataxe, a modernist.
Lataxe,
You've hit on something here: <Use a side-to-side motion for the final rubs on the microgrit, to avoid any micro-dubbing.>
This is actually the way I learned to sharpen, freehand though, holding the blade in one hand and the stone to the bench in the other. The motion was never front to back, but side to side. It worked great until I learned that I had be doing it all wrong.
I've never been able to get the hang of sharpening on paper, doing the front to back motion. It seems as though the blade wants to dig into the paper instead of sliding over the surface. The result is torn paper, a dull edge, and a steamed and annoyed operator. It works a little better if I rub the blade side to side, slowly moving the blade backwards at the same time as I go back and forth.
But here's my million dollar idea (and I do have a million of them). Why not put a blade clamp like you see on the sharpening jigs onto an adjustable-height swiveling base? The swivel's "foot" would sit on the paper and you'd rub the blade in an arc on the paper. Rub one area until the grit would no longer cut, and then reposition the jig on the paper. Screw the swivel upward slightly in order to create a different or micro bevel. Move on to the next grit by simply picking the jig up and slapping it down on another sheet of paper.
This would facilitate creating a slight convexity in a plane blade, as you could put more pressure on one edge of the blade easily.
I only want, say, 60% of the profits of this exciting, new idea...
ZoltonIf you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
You've hit on something here: <Use a side-to-side motion for the final rubs on the microgrit, to avoid any micro-dubbing.>
This is actually the way I learned to sharpen, freehand though, holding the blade in one hand and the stone to the bench in the other. The motion was never front to back, but side to side. It worked great until I learned that I had be doing it all wrong.
Hi Zolton
Sharpening sideways is what I do as well. This has much greater stability when freehanding blades.
Not so long ago I did a review of the Sharp Skate honing guide and also went through the freehand method:
http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/dCohen/z_art/sideSharpening/sideSharp1.asp
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,
Thanks for that link to the article you wrote on the sharpening skate. Man, that's quite a feat of engineering! I doubt I'll spring for one though. It looks like a solution in search of a problem. I've got to hand it to whoever invented it though. Someone was staying up late at night thinking...
Guess I'll stick with free-handing it for now. It's what I've used for 30 years and I'm familiar with it. But I do plan to work on a way to get a consistent angle on sandpaper using the side by side method. I'll post back here if I come up with anything noteworthy..
Zolton
If you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
Richard? Could you please post it again?
Nah Boss. Too soon. Needs a year or more between airings. Why not find it and provide a link if you're so minded? Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
A modernist approach to traditional tasks. Rather forward-thinking of you.
No one has asked yet, but I'll say that this one iron in my story is a new Lie-Nielsen, which are billed as ground dead flat and hand-finished at 400 grit. And the back was, indeed, worked on a fairly coarse stone and appeared flat. I use a 220-325 grit diamond stone for the initial flattening, then move onto the water stones.
Part of my dissatisfaction with the abrasive paper method stems from (oddly enough) the granite plate I was using. It's a good size, so I could affix 3 grits of paper to it. I wasted a lot of paper, however, because I could only work the irons on one side of the paper because only one side faced out-the other sides were facing the inner field of the plate. REmoving the paper only tore it.
I never thought to affix strips of the paper to MDF, because MDF just doesn't seem solid enough, as if I will gouge it. I know it's easily replaceable, but still. How has it worked in your experence? Fine, apparently, if you're a fan of your method overall.
Most nights are crystal clear, but tonight it's like he's stuck between stations.
Having spent many hundreds of dollars on planes, water stones, and jigs the best $25 I've ever spent may very well be on David Charlesworth's DVD "Hand Tool Techniques Part I: Plane Sharpening" available from Lie-Nielsen.
Like you, I had nobody to teach me, and I was flying blind even though I had all manner of conflicting books and articles on sharpening.
Watching the DVD and seeing what to expect from each step will give you the skills and confidence you need. It sure did for me.
Chris
I've been eyeing that one, Chris; thanks for the recommendation.
John
Most nights are crystal clear, but tonight it's like he's stuck between stations.
J,
The MDF I use as the substrate for the micrgrit papers is a good quality 3/4" thick type. It's a bit heavier (denser) than run-of-the-mill MDF and has an almost polished surface. I use a piece about 8 inches by 4 inches, with only half it's area covered by the piece of microgrit paper. This allows me to use all the paper by moving it towards one edge or another of the MDF for back-flattening; but there's still room to run the honing guide when doing the initial microbevel.
The microgrit papers I use are not sticky-backed and are just placed loose on the MDF. Once pressed a bit they seem to adhere (via static maybe?) - they will move slightly when I'm rubbing the edge or back on them but don't slide round loosely. I've a feeling that having the paper loose stops a lot of the dubbing effect when one rubs the blade back and forth rather than side to side. There's no resistance from the not-stuck paper, so it doesn't form a little "ripple" in front of the blade, unless I press too hard that is.......
The stuff I use seems to have a very thin but tough paper as the backing. When the blades create those black smudges of removed metal, it shows up as a very even coat - no ripples or blips in the smudge marks. I assume this means the paper backing and the covering of grit are very even and of uniform thickness. Presumably this is important for such papers, which are meant to polish metal or paint surfaces to a very fine tolerance.
Sometimes I get a tiny bit of sawdust or grit between the paper and the MDF. This shows up immediately as a high spot in the smudge from a blade rubbed over it - a handy check that the paper/MDF is truly flat, perhaps.
Perhaps the other "secret" is that I don't press down a lot when using the microgrits. After all, the downward force required on a very narrow microbevel must be quite small in order to achieve a good "cutting presure" on that edge. In all events, merely rubbing the edge on the microgrit papers usng only the blade's own weight and perhaps the weight of my "guide finger" (the one pushing/guiding on the front end of the blade) seems to do the job. You can see the grit is cutting by that black smudgy line forming, as metal is taken off the edge and deposited in the grit.
Lataxe
"This is what frustrates me so much. I am largely self-taught but this is one skill that doesn't seem to lend itself to that-without a frame of reference I feel like I am doomed to repeat my mistakes over and over."
I think that sharpening is one of the skills that you need to learn in person. Unfortunately, that's not always possible. But if you can, get yourself over to a local woodworking club or class where they teach you how to sharpen.
If you're stuck with internet advice, you've already gotten a lot of good advice. I'll just mention that almost every time I had an issue with using waterstones, it was because I slacked off on flattening them.
I also use a coarse diamond stone and Shaptons (1000, 5000, and 8000 grit). You didn't mention if your Shaptons are new, but I found that they started to work better after using them for a while, almost as if the first 1/16" or so needed to be gotten past before the stone really started working well. This was especially true for my 5000 grit stone.
One other thing to keep in mind is that the process of starting out with a coarse stone and working your way up through all the grits is something you only have to go through once with a tool. Once you have it sharp, you can start sharpening with the 1000, or even your 4000. There's a saying that goes, "The more you sharpen, the less you sharpen," referring to the fact that if you keep up with honing your sharp edge, you can get your tool back to sharp with a quick honing on a high grit stone rather than having to start all the way back to a coarse diamond stone again.
Oddly enough, as soon as I finished my missive last night, I checked to see if Woodcraft was offering any sharpening classes. I agree with you-this seems like one of those you don't know what you don't know" situations. Harrelson Stanley is teaching a 3-night "Shapton System" class, whihc I can't make because they are all on Wednesdays and my wife works that night. North Bennett Street School has a workshop sometime in April or May, but it sounds like more theory than practice.
My stones are "new", meaning I bought them in November and I haven't used them that much since then. I'll keep your thought in mind, and as I mentioned to Philip earlier, after I flattened the 1k stone, it worked like it never had before, so you might be onto something. The 1k and 2k are the Pro series, and the 4, 6, and 8 are the GlassStone series. (the 2 and the 6 were each purchased individually, several years apart, before the others.) I wish I had spent the extra to get all Pro series.
Thanks for your input.
Most nights are crystal clear, but tonight it's like he's stuck between stations.
You are so over-thinking this. My sharpening equipment consists of exactly this:
One cheap ($49.00) high speed 6” grinder with a 60 grit white wheel, (nice hollow grind).
One coarse India oil stone.
One hard white Arkansas oil stone.
No jigs, none and no sand paper and float glass, no slow speed grinder, no supper scary-mongo-diamond impregnated-micro bevel-supper adjustable wiz-bang gizmos.
Just the short list above and a bit of practice and my tools and knives will shave, every time. Look, the Goddards and Townsends, Tage Frid, James Krenov et al are able to produce top shelf work and never had all this fancy crap, they just sharpen. It ain’t rocket science…
Napie,
How can we trust your knowledge on sharpening when you own such a small amount of sharpening equipment?!!? Clearly you can never get anything done with such un-sharp tools. I bet you bought those stones at the flea market for some paltry amount.
Here is what I suggest:Upgrade your grinder to... well anything more than $50. Replace you oil stones with something expensive. Maybe a 20 karate diamond stone. The buy some float glass and $50 worth of sandpaper. Finally spend 50% of your time in the shop sharpening. 25% polishing those tools, and 24% admiring those tools. You can do what you want with the remaining time.
****
On a serious note my sharpening kit is similar:
Cheap craftsman 6" grinder (60grit and a 120 grit white wheel)
Two 1000 Grit Water Stones
One 8000 grit Water Stone
Veritas Sharpening Jig
I also received the norton flattening stone as a gift. I've used it. It's one of those things that makes me wonder. The flattening stone will eventually need flattening... should I buy a flattening stone flattening stone. :)
I admit that I also have an 8" grinder that I use with my lathe.
It’s even worse than you suspect, I inherited the oil stones from my grandfather. You know I actually get some woodworking done too. Oh yeah, I grind all my turning tools free hand on that same 6” grinder, and no they never touch a stone, no need.
I was trying to give you some credit. Given your glaring lack of tools I find it hard to imagine how anything gets done. :)
I'm a fan of well designed jigs. No shame in it. The MK II Veritas, and the Wolverine jig for my lathe tools... I do find that for the most part I can freehand the lathe tools fairly quickly. I'm still no good at plane blades if I have to redo them...
Yes yes Napie, old scone, all that is well known (;).
But I think there is an ongoing effort here to get JJV's show on the road with minimal fuss and bother.
Now, stop being so tight: treat yourself to a very cheap coarse diamond plate (about $8), glue it to a block of wood and use it to sort out those now u-shaped stones that you inherited. You will find that first of all they work better than new and secondly that it was very quick and easy to make them flat again.Philip Marcou
Philip,
You must not request of Napie that he leaves behind his tried and true behaviours, prejudices, blinkers and other accoutrements of feeling superior. It is not nice to suggest to the self-righteous that there may be other procedures which are not even a dogma or a catechism as Given To Us in 1719 by Aloysius Cantanker, olde woodworker of Parochia. They will suffer a shock; or perhaps resist the heretical suggestions by getting into a bunker and shutting the lid until 2019.
In case Napie needs a less radical defense of His Truth, perhaps he would like to stick his fingers in his ears and go, "LAH LAH LAH" very loudly so that the unpleasant heresy goes unheard? Or will it have to be pirate eye patches (both eyes) for the Web-borne blasphemies?
Lataxe
EEE lud, that is so delicately put, but have mercy,do not confuse the most venerable Nap for that other personality .....Philip Marcou
"Prejudices, blinkers, self-righteous,...." etc.More verbal diarrhea from you.Napie is pointing out that there's a simple method out there. It's a good point. Personally I own every sharpening method and gizmo known to man except those newly produced in the last couple years. Oilstones, waterstones, PSA paper, diamond stones, diamond paste, powered-machines, jigs, etc., etc. - you name it, I've bought it. In recent years I've come back around full circle to Napie's method of grinder and oilstones. Simple, simple, simple, is all you need. Larry's technique of using a diamond plate to dress an oilstone is probably the one useful technique about sharpening that I've picked up in several years worth of static conversation on knots. It works particularly well on my Norton wide #### oilstone. That stone, though more abrasive than a Hard Arkansas (which I also have, severally), will bring an edge to the point where it will shave hairs easily. If you're working quickly and don't want to make a science project out of sharpening, you merely need strop the burr off and go back to work.Everyone does it differently, Lataxe. You really shouldn't use those kinds of words about Napie just because he does it differently than you. Personally, I would rather read what Napie's got to say, than what you've got to say. (That's about as simple and blunt as I could possibly state that).Edit to add: W*A*S*H*I*T*A Note: The stone with this label sold by Norton (reintroduced after several generations absence) is quite different than the one sold by Woodcraft with this label.
Edited 3/6/2008 9:11 am by EdHarrison
The gizmosity in most cases is good for two things:
Selling three-day sharpening seminars at $750 a whack.
Avoiding facing the reality of not being a particularly apt woodworker.
In the grand scheme of things I'm not that great a woodworker, assuming the moniker encompasses design and some reasonable attempt at originality. The first step for me in trying to really do something great (still trying) was getting out from under all the angst-inducing accoutrements and woodworking "science."
I do not find gadgets and gizmos comforting. I get irritated with crap lying around that gives me fourteen different ways to do some simple task.
James Krenov could out design and out woodwork everybody on this forum with edges you couldn't slice butter with, ditto Castle, Fortune, Osgood, Carpenter, et al.
Edited 3/6/2008 10:59 am ET by BossCrunk
Gizmosity:Working on my "aerosol honing" system, also known as "sharpening in a can." Spray it on and you're done.Marketing plan is to send a few cans to Derek Cohen in Perth, then sneak into his garage at night and hone all of his edge tools razor shop. He'll write a glowing "review," publish links to it in every English-speaking woodworking forum known to exist on planet earth, then everyone will buy it. I'll be rich. Or richer. And famous in the woodworking world. A bullet-proof plan.And if it doesn't work, I've aslways got my Christmas-tree scented cutting oil and hand tool lubricant product to roll out. Contains a camellia oil base and 11 secret ingredients. Package includes a microfiber cloth for proper application.
Funny....
Edited 3/6/2008 10:12 am ET by BossCrunk
You can't dispense with the teentsie ruler though. You could tape one to the can. Kind of like the red thingy that's taped to a can WD-40.
"You really shouldn't use those kinds of words about Napie just because he does it differently than you."
As ought to be clear by now, that's not the reason. It's the "you're an idiot" tone that triggers the response.
-Steve
Ed,
I like that diversity thang. So of course, when a sneery bloke decries all but his own old saws, it triggers my paradoxia - you know: I can't tolerate the intolerant, etc.. Then I goes over the top, as in "Here is a mirror to your curly lip".
Lataxe, a verbal exuderator.
A Lesson in Sharpening
By Richard Jones<!----><!----><!---->
A perennial subject in woodworking magazines is that of sharpening techniques. No other furniture making topic seems to generate so many words, resulting in the publication of innumerable articles detailing ‘infallible’ or ‘sure fire’ methods of doing the job.
Naturally, the subject is of interest because blunt tools aren't much use. The opening preamble to many of these articles often cause a wry smile for they bring back memories of my initiation into the 'dark' art. Many authors make points about those that struggle at it, and possess a workshop full of dull tools. Conversely, it is often said that those that can do the job tend to be fanatical about grits, slurries and bevel angles. My experience is that there are really only two types of people when it comes to sharpening.
1. Those that can’t.
2. Those that can.
In the first group, those that can't, you'll sometimes see every sharpening system known to man arrayed around their workshop gathering dust. They have oilstones, water stones, ceramic stones, diamond stones, guides, pieces of sandpaper, jigs, etc.. Usually, every hand tool they own is chipped, dull and mostly useless.
In the second group, those that can, I haven’t observed much fanaticism about slurries, grits and bevel angles. In all the workshops I’ve worked in the only concern is to get the job done. It’s a case of, "Plane’s blunt, better sharpen it." Dig out the stone, sharpen the blade, shove it back in the plane, and get on with it. The equipment is minimal. A grinder, a stone and lubricant along with a few slips for gouges and the like.
Going back to the early seventies when I trained, learning how to sharpen tools was undertaken within the first few days. I don’t now recall precisely the order of my instruction, but it went something like this. I was handed a plane by the cabinetmaker I was assigned to and told, "Get that piece o’ wood square." I didn’t know why, but I’d done a bit of woodworking at school, so I had a vague idea what to do. I fooled around with that lump of wood for twenty or so minutes, and got it something like. All this under the watchful eye of the crusty old guy and his ever present roll-up hanging out of the corner of his mouth.
"Okay, I’ve done that." I said, "Now what do you want me to do?"
I was told to hang about for a minute whilst he picked up his square and straight edge and proceeded to scrutinise my handiwork, which was followed by a non-committal grunt and some desultory foot sweeping of the plentiful shavings on the floor. (The wood was probably only about eighty or so per cent of its original volume!)
"Now sonny, let’s do the next job," he announced. "Pull that jack plane you’ve bin usin’ apairt and let’s have a look at the iron." I did.
"Hold the iron up so’s yuh can see the cuttin' edge," he instructed. (He was a Scot.) Again I did as I was told.
"Now, can yu’ see it? Can yu’ see the ‘line o’ light’ at the shairp end there?" he wheezed, as he tapped a line of ash onto the floor and stood on it. He was referring to the shiny reflection visible when cutting edges are dull.
"Aye," I said, after a little eye narrowing, and other pretence of intelligence.
"How shairp does it look to you boy?" he enquired.
I thought about this for a moment or two, seeking the right response to my tormentor, for I hadn't really got a clue what he was talking about, and finally replied rather hopefully and a bit brightly, "Pretty shairp, I’d say."
He laughed out loud, and hacked a bit. "Dinnae be the daft bloody laddie wi’ me son. If yu’ can see it, it’s blunt. I could ride that bloody iron y'er holdin’ bare-ersed to London and back and no cut ma’sel’. Get o’er here an’ I’ll show yu’ something."
You can probably guess. Out came the oilstone from his toolbox, and quick as a flash the iron was whisking up and down the stone, flipped over, the wire edge removed, and finally it was stropped backwards and forwards on the calloused palm of his hand. You could shave with it. I know, because he demonstrated how sharp it was by slicing a few hairs off his forearm. On went the cap iron and the lot was dropped back in the plane followed by a bit of squinting along the sole from the front whilst the lever and knob were fiddled with and that was it. He took a few shavings off a piece of wood and it went back in his toolbox. It took, oh,…......a few minutes.
"Now son, that’s a shairp plane. It’s nae bloody use to me blunt. Yu’ may as well sling a soddin’ blunt yin in the bucket fur'all the use it is to me." He explained with great refinement. "I’ve aboot ten mair o’ them in that box, an’ they’re all blunt. Ah’ve bin savin ‘em for yu’. There’s a bunch a chisels too. Let’s get yu’ started."
For what felt like forever I sharpened his tools for the one and only time he allowed me to under his rheumy eyed and critical stare, and things gradually got better. After a while he stopped telling me what a "completely daft stupit wee bastit, " I was, and a bit later he started offering grudging approval. I had to sharpen some tools more than once because he kept on using and dulling them. When I’d done the lot we stopped and surveyed the days work.
"Aye, nae too bad fer a daft laddie's fust effort," he commented darkly, sucking hard on his smoke, "I think ye’ve goat whit it takes. Time’ll tell sonnie. Remember, ye’ll never be a bliddy cabinetmaker if yu’ cannae even shairpen yer feckin’ tools. Lesson over. Dinnae ferget it."
I haven't.
Richard Jones Furniture
Edited 3/6/2008 1:20 pm ET by BossCrunk
Lataxe,
" you know: I can't tolerate the intolerant, etc."
If there is one thing I cannot tolerate, it is those (well that is more than one thing, already) who are intolerant of those who are intolerant of others, etc, etc.
Ray, full of self-loathing, by his own reasoning
Ray,
Yes, I don't see why we oughtn't to join The Sneerage Klub of Knots. But, since the habitues have already annexed all the obvious things to diss, it is quite difficult to find a new subject to jeer and hoot at. Every time sharpening comes up, for example, they gather like flies on a stinkhorn. (What's the collective noun for a gang of po-faced old sneerers shouting "oilstone!" and going red in the face at some hapless enquirer after knowledge)?
Anyway: what to diss so as to mark our new membership of the S-Klub? Perhaps we can try, "What, you use maple! I been using oak for years and anyone who uses maple is a dang fule"!!
No, it doesn't work. Perhaps you have to be born to it?
Lataxe, tired of the same old bollocks from the same old Lawd Snooties.
Sire,
Which of the furniture styles would you consider to be the purest art form?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
If we're talking High Art in furniture then the answer lies in two books I indulged myself in (Richard Jones' fault for encouraging us to look at contemporary furniture that has been designed anew rather than just taken from tradition). Both books are edited by Betty Norbury and focus on contemporary British makers. There are probably US (and other nationality) equivalents.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bespoke-Source-Furniture-Designer-Makers/dp/0854421858/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1204834867&sr=1-1
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Furniture-21st-Century-Books-Craftsmen/dp/0854420770/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1204834895&sr=1-4
Opinions on the pieces therin seem to vary. Many folk are taken by the brilliant grain, exotic forms and sculptural shocks exhibited by most of the pieces. I confess that I'm impresed by the workmanship (which does have a touch of the wood engineer's precision about it) and by the flights of design fancy. There are also aspects which seem (in my present frame of mind at least) less meritorious.
If there are themes to the furniture these themes are not the familiar architectural, functional or decorative ones found in traditional furniture styles. The themes are more emphemeral - extensive use of loud and contrasting grain; the aforementioned engineered look; a dominance of scuptural form over functional requirements (although the latter are still present).
In short, each piece seems informed mostly by a desire to be radical (rather than traditional), artistic (rather than crafty) and eye-catching (rather than merely good-looking or proportionate). Each piece is trying to be different from others and anything that's gone before - unique and modern rather than classical or traditional.
Well, it certainly meets the requirements of the modern customers, who are generally very well off and wanting to make a statement to other folk rather than to just get a comfortable chair or a desk to work at. Art dominating craft; image dominating utility. Is this "wrong"? Hardly - but not yet to my taste, I admit. (Who knows how tastes will change by next week)? :-)
Lataxe, wondering what this has got to do with sharpening and hoping Ed is enjoying the many words, especialy the redundant ones (97%).
Lataxe, old bean,
I gotta tell ya, I'm with Napie on this one. Why anyone would choose to use waterstones that one needs to flatten every ten minutes by some accounts, or sandpaper, which one buys over and over, when a couple oilstones will do the job, is beyond my ken or reckoning. I have a group of 3 oilstones (fine India, soft Arkansas, fine Arkansas), that I have used on a nearly daily basis for 20 some odd years now, that have not needed flattening, nor do any of them need flattening now. Once bought, they has stayed bought. Truth to tell, I did buy a gallon of Marvel Mystery Oil, for my dad, back in the '80's, when he moved in with us, and took over the yard mowing duties-- "Great top-cylinder lubricant," he'd say knowingly, of the mysterious oil, pouring a bit into the petrol tank... Now he's gone, and I am using it on the stones. So, maintenence is nil, cost, after the initial purchase, is nil. If we (Napie and I) get red in the face, it is because no-one is listening to the old codgers. What? y'all got yer ears stuffed with 10,000 grit silicon carbide saturated with camellia oil??!! Why, you young whipper-snappers! If I could get my hands on you... but, I digress.
Really, though, I'm the tolerent sort; y'all just go on ahead with yer Eversharps, sharpshops, hone-o-matics; naguras, ichiban,wasabis, whatever; yer stacks of 3-M papers, granite slabs, floatglass, spray adhesives, and yer LN,LV, pdq, rsvp jimcracks, jigs,and gewgaws. I'm like Mel-- if it's fun, it's all good.
Ray, genial, not sneering, oh heavens no, good gracious, not me not ever, must have me confused with someone else, surely
Genial Ray,
So what's your technique man?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Hi Bob,
Attached I hope, is a pic of my "sharpening station". Actually, it is the table that my grinder is attached to, and the oilstones I moved from the workbench, where they are kept, to it. I added every can of mystery oil I could find in the shop, for atmosphere.
My technique? Very little of that. Hollow grind ('cept carving tools) on the wheel. Hone on the fine India (long stone, in back) then a lick and a promise on the soft Arkansas, (smallish stone, in middle) and the hard black Arkansas (nearest the wheel).
Ray
Ray,
OK, I'm a dunce. What is a lick and a promise?
I have 2 of the three stones, lackin the fine black Arkansas. See, I'm one o' them sandpaper & glass guys cause it's cheaper for me. Got a slew of different grits as a donation from the lamdfill....
But I'd like to broaden my horizons as they say. Also, I'd like to be able to sharpen up at the summer cottage without carting everything up there.
Oh, and did you get a new dig. camera?
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
At the risk of being politically incorrect: My mom, telling me to hold still before going into town, would tell me, "I'm giving you an 'Irish bath', also known as 'a lick, and a promise' " (of a more complete job sometime in the future). Did your mom ever lick her thumb, and wipe off a smudge from your face when you were a child?
My lick and a promise is just a fast couple swipes across the stone, done just well enough to get back to work. You can get by without the 2d Ark stone. As someone has said, the finer the finish, the longer you may be able to go between touch-ups.
Only digital camera I have is the one built into my phone.
Ray
Ray,
Did your mom ever lick her thumb, and wipe off a smudge from your face when you were a child?
Oh man, you should have seen how dirty I could get. I think she gave up on the licked thumb. One of my favorite pastimes was playing with truck in a huge loam dirt pile. We used to build roads and I was the bulldozer operator. Don't get much dirtier than that!
Mom used to tell me to strip out in the woodshed and she'd draw a bath. Used to tell me that I'd have to soak for at least an hour before coming down for dinner. I plugged the drain quite often!
I get the lick and a promise about sharpening. Guess I do sort of the same thing but with 60 grit sandpaper on glass. Sometime I miss and break the glass. Then I get out the microscope to make sure I can get a 0.00000000029465734 shaving, anything less and I have to start over from grinding.
I've worn out 14,873 #4 planes blades in just over a year. Stones are cheap, it's tha damn blades that are taking me to the poor house! I gotta get some of them new fangled t-6900.9 blades that take Samson and three boys to sharpen!
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 3/7/2008 9:29 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
"Then I get out the microscope to make sure I can get a 0.00000000029465734 shaving"
That'll be 0.00000000029465734 mm, not 0.00000000029465734 inches I presume Bob.
Your were talking of fine weren't you, and not defining a coarse 'plank' like shaving?
Oh, I guess I'd better put the ha, ha's in just to let you know I'm joking. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Nah, those look too big. I think he is using Bobs inches.
Seriously, is that measurement "system" still being promoted?Philip Marcou
Bobs Philip? I still see the odd loon mentioning them every once in a while. Like Esperanto I can't see the system catching on in a big way.
But seriously for a moment, and addressed to all now, this sharpening debate is endless, and I don't think there's one 'right' way. I teach sharpening to beginners, perhaps 15- 20 times a year.
I demonstrate the freehand methods I use from the grindstone to the bench stone. I make the learners aware of the fact that there are a plethora of choices. I can't be bothered going through and demonstrating all the other methods. That would take a lifetime, and life's too short.
I show them my way and stand over them for a bit as they practice-- and call them a "stupit wee bastit" a few times so they get the true experience of initiation into the 'dark' art. Sadly the "ever present roll-up hanging out of the side of the mouth" bit has had to be dropped, as here in PC, nanny-knows-best Britain, smoking inside all public buildings has been banned by the 'The Government'; and there are cameras at every available vantage point to keep us all in a 1984'ish observed state of 'safety', for our own good of course.
After that it's up to them. The rest is down to the three p's-- practice, practice, practice. If they won't or can't get the job done freehand for whatever reason, I don't care what method they choose to get their tools sharp.
They can experiment with every system known to man if they want. I've tried a few of the aids students buy, eg, the Veritas cambered wheel thingie (horrible), diamond stones (useful), those mechanical power sharpeners that lots of people rave about (yawn), those prissy side to side doo-dads (what a palaver), all sorts come my way to fiddle and fart about with. They're all a bit too bloody clever and fiddly for me.
But for some people they work, and if it works for them I can't knock it. The main thing is they get fast at doing it, because those learners are there to make wooden things with tools, not there to spend their working day sharpening tools.
One thing I do know is that someone that can't sharpen their planes, chisels, saws, etc, is never going to be a woodworker of any note, so get the sharpening out of the way fast and get to woodworking. Not unless, that is, your most ecstatic moments are those spent getting sheer joy at the sharpening station. Slainte.
Richard Jones Furniture
Edited 3/8/2008 8:13 am by SgianDubh
I think you have summed it up to the nearest micron.
But the subject of sharpening needs to be raised at fairly regular intervals so that we may all enjoy a variety of circumlocutional interludes and manufacture new myths .
And many strange things can happen: can you imagine the Napster and Lataxe meeting to have bangers&mash ?
Edited 3/8/2008 3:38 pm by philip
Richard,
Of couse I meant inches. I'm on the other side of the pond you know. Who knows maybe someday we'll all use the same measurement system.
Yeah, right..............
Oh yes, the ha, ha, has!
:>)
Cheers mate,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 3/8/2008 12:34 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Edited 3/8/2008 12:35 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Dangeeeit Ray, what in the tarnation are yáll doin with them ther awl stones?? Git yerself one good diamond plate and park that group of stones!Why clutter up the place with so many stinkin awl stones? (;)
Actually, just as yet another aside, I would like to have you and the Napster standing by to observe the difference in the way a typical oil stone such as a Norton India or Pike cuts after it has been dressed with a coarse diamond plate-and to compare how it cuts after a dressing with a rubbing brick or some abrasive paper. I would have been sceptical had I not tried it.
A similar difference can be seen when dressing grinder wheels with a cluster diamond dresser or a single point diamond dresser- I found out the hard way and don't ask me why it is so but it is so .
Philip Marcou
Edited 3/7/2008 2:55 am by philip
Ray, Napie (& Philip),
I don't remember anyone disagreeing that oilstone sharpening is a perfetly legitimate and effective sharpening method. I certainly won't gainsay it, since I have no experience of it. If it wasn't for the expense of buying them and the bother of keeping them stored, oiled and flat, I would rush out right now, just for the experience. (It's good to play).
The issue is rather this: why do folk who have found a method that suits them not only feel certain that this method is viable but also even more certain that any other method is stupid, costly, a con-trick by marketing men, etc., etc.? I always recall the post about biscuit joining that went along the lines of: "That biscuit joining is no good. I been doing [alternative procedure] for 30 years so I know biscuits are no good".
In other words, why decry and sneer at methods you have no experience of, rather than confining yourself to recommending (and explaining) the methods you do have experience of? What's more, why are you certain folk also concerned to claim your favoured method is without drawbacks, cost and generally platonically perfect? Surely, there is no such perfection in the whole universe?
And then there is Philip's subtle point. Even old methods are capable of improvement. Of course, not trying any improvements will, according to the above flawed logic, prove that they are not just unnecessary but also "wrong".
Lataxe, who prefers thinking about experiences he has had to pooh-poohing experiences he hasn't.
It's real simple David, all that 'stuff' just peaks too high on the Spaz meter. Or as Ray might say it: too many jimcracks, jigs, and gew-gaws by half.And I believe that a reasonable argument could be made that four drawers full of thingies and a couple or three different grinders, etc. really doesn't speak as much to an actual methodology as it does to slinging poop against a wall to see what sticks, or worse, endless experimentation and useless tinkering long past the point of bearing real fruit.You and your Merry Band of Chequewriters obviously feel differently so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.Sneers and Jeers on the house - everybody drink up!
Edited 3/7/2008 8:56 am ET by BossCrunk
"It's real simple David, all that 'stuff' just peaks too high on the Spaz meter."
Here's the thing: As Lataxe says, anything that you don't personally use is automatically labeled, "stuff."
Here is the entire complement of "stuff" that I use for sharpening chisels and plane blades. (I have a few other slipstones and such for curved edges, etc.)
View Image
From left to right:
A DuoSharp coarse/extra-coarse plate for rough shaping and stone flattening.
A piece of that non-slip mesh stuff to put the plate and stones on so they don't slide around while sharpening.
A Norton 200/1000 combo waterstone (I no longer use the 200 side, as the diamond plate works better).
A Norton 4000/8000 combo waterstone.
A Veritas Mark II honing jig (two parts).
A 10X hand lens that I occasionally use for inspecting edges.
(Not shown) A running faucet for rinsing.
That's it. Not even a bench grinder. I'm thinking of getting the cambered roller for the Veritas jig, as I'm finding that the extra-wide extra-thick blades on my new LV BU planes are difficult to camber with the jig in its normal configuration.
-Steve
Steve, for what reason do you think my post applied to you?
Boss,
I think he likes you.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I'm touched.
Boss,
It's gettin down right purty up here these days. I reckon the sap'll be flowin right shortly.
View Image
View Image
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
We're still looking for something up that way. Is it feasible to commute in and out of Boston from points fairly close in NH? My wife realized that she could make $70K+ a year teaching in the Boston Public School System with her degrees and experience. She teaches in the Memphis system now so Boston couldn't be much worse (and probably better) - and she teaches elementary school anyway.
I knew someone who did it the other way around--she lived in Boston and worked in Manchester NH. She said that she couldn't stand the thought of living in a state that had more cows than people.
-Steve
Uh, the moose outnumber the cows, up here anyway.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Boss,
With all due respect to the OP and yourself, I think further discussion on this would be better served by all through email. Please feel free to avail yourself of email and rest assured that your privacy is of utmost importance to me, as is mine.
In a nutshell in answer to your question, yes commuting from southern NH to Boston is feasible. As long as you don't mind traffic jams all the time, worse in winter!
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Steve, Bob thanks.... we're taking a little weekend trip to Beantown this spring... Home prices in S. New Hampshire are unbelievably low. Stuff in the 150K range there would be over half a million here.Last post... will send email if I have more questions.
I thought you were deeevorced.
Not at the moment, but one never knows does one? I'm happy, hope she is too.
Bob,You'd better hunker down. I live in Ottawa and we're being advised that we should expect 18-20" of snow and high winds between Friday evening and Sunday morning. This is on top of the 12" we got a couple of days ago. The snowpack in my backyard is now at 30", and I suspect it will soon be high enough for the squirrels to get past all the ingenious contraptions I've devised to keep them out of my bird feeders. The way this winter has gone, the storms come through Ottawa just to get practice in making life miserable before heading straight to NH to really unload.So far this winter, Ottawa's received more than 12 feet of snow since November. The pictures were taken yesterday. . .I need to update the date function on my camera. I can't speak for the rest of the populace here but I've had enough! Ron
Ron,
You really didn't have to post that we're in line for more snow. :>)
It's 50°F, the sun is shining and nary a cloud in the sky today.
Guess we be makin sure the Tank (plow truck) is ready!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
Brace yourselves. We just had 1/4" or so of sleet and freezing rain, and now it looks like it's going to be snowing for the next several hours.
And we're south of the Mason-Dixon Line.
-Steve
I ain't scared. Got the hottub ready. If we get rain (likely) that could make for some interesting pics over the weekend.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Where in the rest of the thread have you indicated otherwise?
Hugs and kisses,
-Steve
I don't recall addressing a post to you.
You rarely address posts to anyone. You just pronounce to the world at large.
-Steve
Wow.
Take it up with Richard and Ray. Hell, I've got more gew-gaws than they do.
The analogy with the biscuit jointer is in error. That tool simplified the process of making face frames etc. All these other sharpening “systems” increase the level of complexity. I have nothing against them but in my ever increasing attempt to simplify my life and apply Occam’s Razor, well, I go to the least complex method. Remember, “The easy way is hard enough” <!----><!----><!---->
"All these other sharpening 'systems' increase the level of complexity."
How is that? Something like the WorkSharp (I don't have one) seems to be about as simple to use as could possibly be.
-Steve
Because it another piece of equipment to buy, plug in and maintain. My old grinder also sharpens the axe, mower blades and my ice spud.
"Because it another piece of equipment to buy, plug in and maintain. My old grinder also sharpens the axe, mower blades and my ice spud."
In other words, "That's not the way I do it, so it can't be any good."
Why bother with a grinder? Why not just use the same concrete block you use for flattening your stones? After all, the grinder is another piece of equipment to buy, plug in and maintain.
-Steve
Steve, I think the notion is purchasing capability, over and over, that one already has or has had in the past. A.K.A. - Chasin' Yer Tail. It's perpetual green grass on the other side of the sharpening hill.
"The Tormek's irritating me, think I'll try a Worksharp."
"These water stones are just o.k., think I'll bail into some Shaptons"
"After I polish on the 3M .5 mu paper I like to take it to a 15,000 grit Ice Bear with a Nagura slurry and then maybe strop with diamond paste on fine horsebutt leather"
Spazalopticus comes to mind, no?
Some of us have chased our tails and learned a lesson from it. We'd like to help others from doing the same thing. Others hope you'll keep chasing your tail because they enjoy the validation, as it were. This is woodworking to them - the next sharpening tool purchase, evaluation, and exposition to the world of their results.
Edited 3/7/2008 11:28 am ET by BossCrunk
The never-ending quest for the holy grail is definitely a problem for some people. But that shouldn't be confused with finding one's own way; what's good for the goose isn't necessarily good for the gander. The apprentice that does nothing but slavishly copy his mentor is a failure.
Case in point: I started with a couple of oilstones, because that's all there was way back when. I read about waterstones (in Fine Woodworking, in fact), and bought a King stone from Garrett Wade (back when Garrett Wade actually sold tools and not just weird stuff). It was truly a revelation--for me, the waterstone was indescribably better than the oilstones.
And the idea that some technique was "good enough" for Frid, Krenov, etc. and should therefore be good enough for me and you is absurd. Some newfangled things really are better than the old ones.
Another case in point: My first "real" plane was a Record #5 jack (also from Garrett Wade). It was a big, big purchase for me at the time (something like $75, I think). But it was pretty clear from the get-go that this plane was in a whole 'nother class from the worthless hardware-store Stanley I had been struggling with. A few months ago, I bought the new Lee Valley bevel-up smoother. It's a joy to use. Based on my experience with that one, I recently purchased the Lee Valley low-angle jack as a replacement for the Record. Again, the difference is night and day--the LV plane is so much easier to use, in every respect. Does it do anything that the Record couldn't do? Not really, no. But it does it better, with less fuss. And "less fuss" is something that is very important to me, since I have so little time to devote to woodworking. I can imagine that the "less fuss" aspect of something like the WorkSharp is just as important to some people.
-Steve
Settle in and relax. It sounds like you're just about there. If the water stones work for you then bully for you. Don't ever change. That looks like a sweet little set up to me, I'm not a big fan of water stones but what you say you have certainly doesn't seem particularly excessive.
You'll be happy to know that since my 8000 stone has a large crack (on the other side--not visible in the photo), I need a replacement, and I will probably try one of the new Shapton GlassStones.
-Steve
"I think I'll try..." I'd probably replace it with one I'm already familiar with. Like Napie said, it's your money.
"I'd probably replace it with one I'm already familiar with."
How can you expand your horizons if you never leave home?
I have to confess: While I am not a habitual gadget buyer (I own relatively few--I only bought a cell phone a couple of years ago because my work demanded it, the calculator that I posted a photo of in another thread is nearly 30 years old, etc.), I have an insatiable thirst to learn new things. Therefore, I am willing to go at least a little ways out on a limb to try something new, if I feel that there's a reasonable probability of a decent payoff.
-Steve
Expand my horizons in what, tool buying?See, here's the deal - sharpening is a big deal to you. It's something that's susceptible to having its, or your, 'horizon expanded.' I just don't think about it that much. What works, works. My edges are fine.
Edited 3/7/2008 1:15 pm ET by BossCrunk
Charles-You say, "I just don't think about (sharpening) that much."Good grief! For something you don't think about much, you have spent a huge amount of time in this thread expressing your views on sharpening and responding to others' views.How many posts on sharpening have you made so far in this sharpening thread? Include in the total this one declaring your lack of interest in sharpening.
I don't think about it *much* when I'm in the shop. I do adore the sharpening threads on these forums though.
Steve, think hard about that-my opinion, for what little it's worth, is that you should get the Pro Series if you're looking at Shaptons.
I know, I started this thread saying I was having trouble sharpeing, and now I'm offering my opinion on stones. I've got real stones, no? ;-)
Most nights are crystal clear, but tonight it's like he's stuck between stations.
JJV,
I've got the pro series 1000,5000 and held off on the 8000 waiting to compare it with the glastone version. That was some time ago and I still haven't pulled the trigger...the higher the grit the more the need to flatten frequently. In the mean time, however, I think I'm getting the equivalent of an 8000 by rubbing some green rouge on hard board. I use the Veritas II and side sharpen all three in about 1 min. total per plane blade. I think the side sharpening mitigates lack of stone flatness.
I remember seeing Harrelson Stanley demo the GlassStones and he flattened them a lot, and it didn't seem to have affected the thickness of the abrasive much. What irks me about them is it seems they load up easier than the pro series do. Of course, this is all just a gut feeling, as I have nothing to compare it to.
Maybe the 8000 isn't really necessary.
Most nights are crystal clear, but tonight it's like he's stuck between stations.
jjv,"Maybe the 8000 isn't really necessary"Bingo !!I saw the demo also and it kinda pushed me in the same direction...hence the green stuff...
"I've got the pro series 1000,5000 and held off on the 8000 waiting to compare it with the glastone version. That was some time ago and I still haven't pulled the trigger...the higher the grit the more the need to flatten frequently. In the mean time, however, I think I'm getting the equivalent of an 8000 by rubbing some green rouge on hard board. I use the Veritas II and side sharpen all three in about 1 min. total per plane blade. I think the side sharpening mitigates lack of stone flatness."As far as frequency of flattening, I've found the opposite: I need to flatten out my 1000 stone much more often than my 8000. In fact, I've found that it's more important to make sure that the coarse stones are flat compared to the higher grit stones, as a dished coarse stone will put a convexity in the tool surface that will make refining the edge with the higher grit stones much more difficult.Green rouge on any surface is probably equivalent to a 16000 grit Japanese waterstone. Both have particles that are on the order of 0.5-1 micron. Which I find amusing, as I've read on occasion people who use oil stones and green compound on a strop wonder why anyone would go up to an 8000 grit waterstone, when in fact their method takes the sharpening grits to an even finer degree.Side sharpening certainly has its advantages, but I don't think that any sharpening method makes up for a lack of flatness.But the bottom line is that if your tools are sharp enough to do what you want, then you're doing just fine, regardless what method you use.
Of my Norton waterstones, the 4000 is my favorite, in the sense that it has the best "feel." It tends to get out of flat the quickest, but it's also the easiest to flatten. The 1000 is okay, but just doesn't work as smoothly. The 8000 is cantankerous. It works fine with O1 steel, but gums up readily with A2 steel unless I constantly rinse the surface with fresh water.
-Steve
Boss,
You suggest, "Don't ever change".
Perhaps this is the crux of what it is about your opinions that so get me exercised. What is virtuous about constancy in behaviour? Surely the world will suggest, demand and then force us to change, on so many matters?
Even if change is not forced upon us, why not seek it anyway? Is it so terribe a thing to play (and spend money, sometimes) playing, investigating, exploring?
Also, I would like to see your survey of all the Knotters and the criteria you use for dividing them into "cool furniture makers who use only basic tools" and "gullible new tool buyers who make nothing of worth". One suspects that there is only one criterion - a little prejudice manufactured in the head of Boss and not necessarily related to reality, which is a hard thing to know with the kind of certainty you appear to value.
Not that I reject your idea that there is sometjing attractive about economy and simplicity. Napie makes a good point concerning Occam's razor. But why emulate the mode of a monk in a cell from Monday to Sunday? Try a little free-thinking and daring behaviour on, let's say, a Tuesday.
Lataxe, a flitting fangle fool
Don't change if it already works is more like it. You got it half right.Do you find a new way to flip the light switch on in the shop each day?If not, then why not? There could be a better way, you know.
Edited 3/7/2008 1:20 pm ET by BossCrunk
Do you find a new way to flip the light switch on in the shop each day?
I tried the clapper for a while, but the lights kept going off when I'd use my power tools, use my mallet, or drop a board.
Clap On, Clap Off, THE CLAPPER!Love the commercials..
"Do you find a new way to flip the light switch on in the shop each day?"
Every day? No. But not that infrequently: I changed over to almost 100% CFL bulbs a couple of years ago. I've also been investigating LED lamps on and off over the years (mostly waiting for the brightness to go up and the price to come down), and just the other day as an experiment I purchased a little candelabra LED lamp to go in some outdoor lights that we have (in which the incandescent bulbs burn out at a ferocious rate). It's working great, so I just ordered two more, and I expect that I will never have to replace those lamps again.
See, that wasn't so hard, was it?
-Steve
Do you ever draw? Do you own a sketchbook?
You didn't ask me, but I can answer for me: no, because the results resemble what a 2 year old does with a crayon, and yes, because I am an optimist after all.
I wish I could draw better-then I could persuade my wife to let me build the visions in my head. As a result I am limited to reproductions of things she sees in pictures.
No, I do not wear the pants.
Most nights are crystal clear, but tonight it's like he's stuck between stations.
Quote: "No, I do not wear the pants"
When it comes right down to it...none of us do, actually. :)
Harry
Following the path of least resistance makes rivers and men crooked.
Mmm, good point...
Most nights are crystal clear, but tonight it's like he's stuck between stations.
"Do you ever draw?"
Not much. I've got a good eye, but I've never been very good at putting pencil to paper. I've found that I can get better results for most things by using something like SketchUp. The only thing that's awkward to do with computer drawing programs is making smooth, organically-flowing curves.
It's funny, but some things that require very fine motor control, like picking 0.5mm nematodes off of an agar plate while looking through a microscope (don't ask), I can try and become proficient at within ten minutes (for most people, it takes days or weeks), whereas others, like drawing a straight line, I am hopeless at, no matter how much I practice. I'm also hopeless at holding a drill perpendicular to a surface--I don't know why that is.
"Do you own a sketchbook?"
I use notebooks. Pretty much everything handwritten--including sketches--goes into it. When one fills up, I start another one. These days, though, a greater proportion of stuff goes into the computer, so I find myself using the notebook less and less.
-Steve
Boss,
Don't you need different thicknesses of the latest mechanical pencils to draw in a sketchbook?
Of course one could use Sketchup and avoid the cost!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Boss,
Don't you need different thicknesses of the latest mechanical pencils to draw in a sketchbook?
Of course one could use Sketchup and avoid the cost!
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
Mane, I do got me some drawing perncils. Cup full.
"Try a little free-thinking and daring behaviour on, let's say, a Tuesday."
I can only assume that you must consider buying new whetstones to be in some way at least, free-thinking, daring behavior.
I'd love to come up with some pithy comment but I have to say I'm struck dumb. I've never really considered the cocoon of tool catalogs, canned plans, and Rectilinear Furniture 101 to be representative of thinking outside the box but maybe I've been wrong.
Shame on me.
Charlie, looking for his Arts and Crafts Furniture and How to Build It book.
Edited 3/7/2008 2:02 pm ET by BossCrunk
Boss,
You malign me! I am up to Rectilinear furniture 103 - rounded corners and some fiddly bits allowed!
As to the A&C books - I have a list somewhere which I can let you have, if you feel up to doing something different, even daring (for you). Yes,it will hurt a bit but think of the cobwebs that will be loosened. It must get tedious carving 87 claws around them all them bollocks, especially when modern folk ask, "Ugh, what that ugly thang"!? Of course, you may have to cut the DTs tight, make the planks flat and forego spurious decorative assemblage, even if it does justify lucrative extra charges from the customers. The joinery is often exposed, you know, so cannot be "it'll do".
You may also borrow my tool porn, although some of the pages are stuck together with drool. I know you will peep in them anway and perhaps order a new, gleaming fangle when no one is looking. After all, you are only human (I think).
Lastly, I must ask: is that other persona named from Charles Villiers Stanforth, the excellent composer of church music and similar? Perhaps you are actually he, benefitting from that Freeze & Revive technology you chaps have over there? If so, I must thank you for the heavenly choir, which was playing only last Monday, although being frozen like that would explain a lot.
Lataxe, anarchist syndicalist peasant aged 37 and a bit, smocked not entightened.
Edited 3/7/2008 3:09 pm ET by Lataxe
I've built a boatload of it. Literally. At this point it makes me almost physically ill, and I have a lot of it in my house. We even managed to lay our hands on a few 'originals' on probably the one day of my life I thought it was cool.It's the woodworking equivalent to eating cardboard. I kid you not - I pressed my son into service when he was nine to pull the handle on the mortising machine when I had a few big projects to get out. That stuff was avant-garde for about four hours, decades ago. 'Twas never much of a technical challenge, but the designers never meant for it to be. But I digress....I think I might let my hair down and knock the moss off my checkbook this weekend - Shaptons here I come!
Edited 3/7/2008 3:20 pm ET by BossCrunk
Boss,
Boston to the NH boarder is about 20-25 miles. There are two highway bands around Boston; 128, 495. There are 52 towns in the 495 band, about 1/2 within 25 miles of NH.
IT’S CALLED AN OPINION FOR A REASON!!!! Good Lord, yeah, my OPINION is that other stuff is a waste of time and money, you don’t, so what, go ahead buy the stuff, use the stuff, whatever trips your trigger. I don’t see where my approval of what you like is necessary, it’s your money do what the hell you want with it.
<!----><!----> <!---->
You must be a democrat the way you read things not stated into a mundane post on a simple subject…
<!----> <!---->
Someone had a question about a subject I have long experience with and I offered my simple approach as an answer to it, nothing more.
"IT’S CALLED AN OPINION FOR A REASON!!!!"
From 40601.25: "You are so over-thinking this."
That's not the expression of an opinion; that's a denouncement. If you would simply say things like, "I've found that I don't need jigs or other fancy equipment, I just use...," instead of being so dismissive, you wouldn't get any of the grief that you do.
-Steve
Steve, the most profound thing that I learned literally years ago (the UBB days) when I first joined this forum is that the most talented and productive woodworkers on the forum, to a man, were not avid shoppers.They all had (and have), to them, well equipped operations that they seemed to be able to put together with a lot of aplomb and little if any Hooray and Who Shot John. They all seem to get a whole lot out of a what many people would consider a pedestrian line up of tools. I chalk it up to talent and even more than that a desire to do the thing itself - woodworking. It' the difference between "I can't wait to do some woodworking" vs. "I can't wait until the new Lee Valley catalog comes out."Even by just reading their posts over the years, one can sense the ease at which they move about making cool stuff out of wood. They don't have the latest gadgets and gew-gaws. Most of them can't tell you a whole lot, if anything, about the latest sharpening stone "innovation" and almost certainly nothing about the latest power grinder doo-hickey to hit the market. Yet they continue to produce the best furniture imaginable. How is that?Do you think that there might be a lesson in here somewhere?
Edited 3/7/2008 1:01 pm ET by BossCrunk
“An opinion is a person's ideas and thoughts towards something. It is an assessment, judgment or evaluation of something. An opinion is not a fact, because opinions are either not falsifiable, or the opinion has not been proven or verified. If it later becomes proven or verified, it is no longer an opinion, but a fact”.<!----><!----><!---->
Based on this I’d say your definitions are what you what them to be, not what they really are. I’m not going to take the time to sweeten the language so you’ll feel better about the statement.<!----><!---->
Now:<!----><!---->
I never once said all new things are not better, not once. I loved my first biscuit jointer and have upgraded it, I use miller dowels to build all my power tool jigs, (never a worry about hitting a screw…) and thank God for carbide tooling. LN and LV planes are far superior to any of my old Records or Stanley’s, (although I don’t think they qualify as “new” so much, more like very high quality control and some innovation, they are really Bedrocks after all). But my homemade Krenov style planes are the nut too and it is nice to build a specialty one for a dedicated task. And I have yet to see a modern vice that can compete with my 70 year old Yost patternmakers vise; I’ll stay with the old stuff there. As to the subject of this thread, sharpening, well, I gave some that other stuff a try like water stones. They were no improvement at all over the methods I have always used, if the results in either improved quality or time saved are not there, why change? I just do not adopt new technology because it is new; I use it only if it brings value, if not, I’ll buy lumber.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Napie,
I would like to offer a sincere apology for suggesting you are self-righteous and so forth when perhaps you are only demostrating your variety of "adamant". The fact is, when you offer argument and reasons I am persuaded, as often as not.
Perhaps your opinions would be better if you let them out less bald? When you dicate them in that rather high-handed fashion, I feel a desire to heckle or even shout, "Yah -boo" from the sidelines. If you want to persuade, you need to be persuasive, perhaps via an explicit rehearsal of those "assessments, judgements and evaluations" that underpin your opinion.
And of course, I can't try that oilstone now, as you and Boss would berate me for buying yet another thang. :-) You are SO hard to please!
Anyway, I hope you can accept my apology, if not the hedges and carps.
Lataxe
No apology necessary my friend. I am afraid that I’m a bit of a provincial and that I do come across as dogmatic. I do not take much time to explain my reasoning, don’t need to. I have spent 20 years in a business that is quite adversarial and it tends to come out in everything and that could be the reason I have succeeded at it. I have little desire to be more diplomatic. I’m a fan of simplicity first and foremost. I spend a lot of time telling my employees that just because you CAN do something, is there a NEED to do it?
<!----><!----> <!---->
As Mr. Ford said:
<!----> <!---->
“Those who know how will always work for those who know why”<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
I should be traveling to Great Britain in the not to distant future and I have craving for a real “fry up” in the morning so perhaps we can clog some arteries together? I’ll bring you a real <!----><!----><!---->Arkansas<!----><!----> oil stone, then you’d not have bought it and Boss and I could say nothing.<!----><!---->
Nap,
A fry up from heaven will be waiting, including succulent local porker (Esmerelda or Wendy II are soon for the chop). You may also be encouraged to sample the kipper, which comes from the Isle of Man and induces wonderful burp. The viscera is put to one side, preferably with the eyeball facing down.
Later, you may peruse the bookcases for arcane philosophy books, as I know you are partial to the stuff. Alas, I got rid of the Kant and the Hegel on the grounds that they were over-puzzling for a dunce like me. I read all the Huxleys in my youth and they too have disappeared into the bookshelves of book-thiefses elsewhere. I just finished reading much Ayn Rand, which means plenty of beligerant conversations may enliven the evening. I prefer Dennett and Karl Popper. :-)
The Arkansas you bring will be my second. I secretly use one o' them curved ones to hone up the turning tools. There, I have confessed. :-)
I do hope to see you in Blighty where every attempt will be made to spoil you rotten and make you commit an altruistic act.
Lataxe
I love kippers and black pudding also. Only Kant understood Kant, maybe… How the greatest philosopher ever could be such a bad writer, well one is allowed only so much genius in a life time. <!----><!---->Rand<!----> huh? You know I love her work, but she was insane, no make that bloody insane, but even a busted clock is right twice a day. And being a follower of Ayn, that altruistic act will be difficult to say the least. At the very least my nickname should be the cause of great amusement over a pint some time don’t you think?
Friend Lataxe,
I fear that my gouging-stick may have been too well sharpened. Perhaps I will resort to using a bit of well-worn curb-stone in future, before I employ it in getting a rise out'n you.
I have some experience in seeing the results of the "scarey-sharp" technique. An acquaintance of mine swears by it. I have seen his chisels, and was not impressed. Quite highly polished they were, but well dubbed. I remember reading about the Oriental waterstones years ago, and wondering why someone would go to all that fuss. My lack of first hand knowledge of their use remains complete. By the time the writer had described working up a slurry, I was already moving to the fine oilstone.
I do think that folk who have found a methodology that works for them do have some innate need, compulsion, something, to evangelise. Whether it be sharpening, finish application, or religious salvation, it is a human trait. Also human is the tendency to feel that if an alternate opinion is offered, it must be an attack on one's own views (if they differ, of course). Ditto the feeling that one's own opinions must be endowed with perfection. I (most thoughtfully) came to this conclusion, you disagree; ergo, you must be incredibly stupid/ your tools must not be a sharp/ your divine being not as divine. YOU MUST BE DESTROYED or at the least converted to my way of thinking. After all, it is for my own good. I challenge you to deny that there is some of this in your own argument for openmindedness!
Truly, it is no skin off my nose whatever method you or anyone else utilise in sharpening, biscuit-joining, or worshipping-- a creator, or the event of an approaching equinox. Funny it is, I hope you can see the humor, that you see a sneer, where there is none, whatever.
Ray, of whose experience there is more of Eeyore than Pooh
Ray,
You cautiously poke a a small jibe in my direction: "I challenge you to deny that there is some of this [red-eyed adherence to own beliefs and warmongering at those of the imagined opposition] in your own argument for openmindedness"!
Ah ha! Guilty as charged (and then some). Still, it's good to scuffle in the schoolyard, as long as there are no hard feelings afterwards and any sore bits are salved. One's perspectives are always in need of alteration, despite the innate desire for certainties, constancy, platonic perfection, infallibiity and all the other impossibilities we humans crave.
So, perhaps I should stop pussyfooting about and adopt a Charles attitude for a bit, as in:
I snigger uncontrollably at the foolishness of stick-in-the-muds who can't see that using an American TS is like asking a brown bear to gut the fish and hand it back. When I am dictator it will all be different and American woodworkers will be compelled to have an Altendorf or a Martin* (it is The Only Way) or otherwise be condemned to work at Williamsburg for the rest of their WW lives, where they will be lectured on a daily basis by Adam and allowed only a blunt drawknife with some twisted-wet POR pine.
Lataxe the Intolerant, apprentice uber-lawd of Correct WW Pratice Lore and Fearsome Cyber Thing in general. (Bark bark).
PS I hope you are satisfied with yo' self, conjuring this beast out of Nice Lataxe, who never means any harm (unless poked, whence he will become skunk-like).
* Payment by 108 easy installments of $569 per week to Lataxe Finance Inc, interest at only 23.83% APR. Your shed and contents may be at risk should you default.
Lataxe,
When you are dictator, I will be happy to use whatever woodworking memes you have declared good, and proper. So let it be written; so let it be done. Perhaps one may be permitted to approach the Shed of the almighty from time to time, hat in hand, and tugging at one's forelock (I'll have to practice my curt'sy), to briefly gaze upon the exalted one's Euro TS and (shudder of awe) Woodrat. And, should one have the temerity, just to be allowed a touch of the lid of the hermetically sealed biscuits!! (cue the choir of angelic voices, and beam of sunlight) Finally, loud Hosannas! to be able to take away as a relic from this pilgrimage, a piece of the true Scarey Sharp Paper, to install in a small niche, lighted by an ever-burning camellia oil lamp, back home, as a shrine to the lessons learned at the knee of the great one. (Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain-- the one wearing the flappy trousers, and pushing a plane!)
Ray, more of a gadfly than polecat, he hopes
Ray,
I have changed my mind about being dictator as it would be very tiring, especially when the hour of execution rolls around every day. So, Charles will just have to do it as originally planned.
Of course, you are still welcome to worhip at my shed, although you must disregard any illicit goings-on behind the arris or at the back of the pews. Also, you must be ready to change the chants, supplications and other rigmaroles on a regular basis, as I am prey to the latest whim in woodworking memes, as you know, so will not be able to show any consistency in the currency of Correct Woodworking Lore and Greater Truths.
In fact, to save embarrasment all round, perhaps we should return to the status quo of good, bad and intolerably savage bickering amongst the Knots sects, disciples, camp followers, wild-eyed prophets and emergent anchorites blinking in the sun and clutching tablets of stone covered in obscure and scratchy runes, diagrams, pictures of unnatural acts and old stains from when there was an accident with the candle but which now seem imbued with pregnant meaning.
Meanwhile I am off to see a friend, who claims to have oilstones, clutching a blunt chisel.
Lataxe, a charlatan and mere pretender (retired) to Charles' throne.
If you were a Jere Osgood or Art Carpenter type then somebody might actually give a damn when you talk about being on the cutting edge of... anything... sharpening or otherwise. But basically you're just a hack like the rest of us, ordering plans from PlansNow and taking four months to build something that would take a person with actual talent about twenty hours.You like posting pictures of your work, hell, post something wildly creative and tell us all how you couldn't have done it without your sharpening set-up du jour. Maybe then somebody will give a rat's a$$.This whole 'why don't you try something new' line of horse$hit is precisely that - horse$hit. Bloody hell, I'm trying to build something new. Tinkering around with some new contraption or some new brand of whetstone just isn't that high on anybody's list of things to do if you're interested in accomplishing something in woodworking. Building other people's $hit only goes so far. God knows, I know.
Edited 3/9/2008 12:10 pm ET by BossCrunk
Boss,
Excellent hissing and spluttering today - perhaps the last jar of vitriol was a bit condensed; or have you forgotten the pill this morning? :-)
I know when you start spluttering like an auld kettle with a leaky bum, and dropping names of your heroes, that the normal Boss sangfroid has gone bye-byes. I am sending for nursey and preparing the statement for the judge that proves it was nowt to do with me (and Boss-baiting is not yet illegal, anyway).
Really, you are too easy, easy, easy (to quote Charles, from some posts ago).
Lataxe, not as good as a hack but still going to post pix of his sad bits of butchery; where are yourn? :->
BC
Relax, my man. Don't worry, we'll be able to start another interesting thread soon about something else that gets your ire! A couple of deep breaths, and the sharpening thread will soon be history (at least for this month!)
As a side note, fwiw, which is absolutely nothing, the reason why I (that would be ME) post pics of my work here, is because, believe it or not, I have sold 3 jobs in the last 4 years to 2 friends and one work acquaintance of a fella who used to forum-hang here, but wasn't up to the work. And, my latest cabinet creation, with several more to come, is in the custom home of a builder who hangs over at Breaktime, and saw a built-in I posted here.
So, why not post a pic or two??
Hope you're having a lovely day. It's a great day to be alive!
Jeff
Hey guys, I've got at least another week or so before I'll be permitted back in the shop by the good ole' Dr. Can somebody please start another interesting thread about sanding, or something equally interesting. This has been a great read.
Jeff heading out to the shop, to verify that I don't have too many sharpening dewdads. OH NO!!!! What if I do??????????????????
Jeff,
There is an obvious penalty to your scenario of: ".....heading out to the shop, to verify that I don't have too many sharpening dewdads. OH NO!!!! What if I do??????????????????"
We will give you to The Boss for a week as his plaything and shed-boy. This will get your mind right about spurious tools; and several other matters!
Lataxe, hiding behind a cyberskirt and peering out to see if it's safe yet.
Puckster,
As suggested by BC I have taken to using a sketchbook instead of a camera. It actually works quite well you know. And, this is the best part, it's black & white! Ya think I should get more modern and use color pencils?
I shall need to ask him how I should sharpen them, Eh?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
It's funny you mentioned that - you know what I can't find? A damned decent manual pencil sharpener. Or maybe it's the pencils. All I know is that they get chewed up.I'll bet Derek has the answer.And come to think of it, this pencil situation irritates me more than anything in the shop lately. Everything else is going like butter except this deal with the pencils.Amazing, really, when you think about it.
Edited 3/9/2008 12:15 pm ET by BossCrunk
Maybe you need to sharpen the sharpener! :)
Boss,
You can in fact, as Mr. Saunders pointed out, purchase a new sharpening core for your pencil sharpener. Or, just use your utility knife. If ya need any instructions on how to do this I would strongly recommend querying Lataxe. I believe he has a DVD that displays the process.
He ain't cheap though. :>)
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 3/9/2008 12:37 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Bob,
I am too mean to buy DVDs. Anyway, they are edited to take out the upcocks and woodwork ones have no dancing girls, just ugly blokes, many of whom mumble.
However, I believe there is a Tormek attachment for sharpening pencil sharpener blades. It is a mere $79.89 and the instructions take only an hour or two to read.
Lataxe, a gizmo fool.
Lataxe,
Thanks for the info. on the Tormek sharpener attachment. Can you tell me if it is capable of making .000001925 mm shavings? I read on the Internet that if one is to use a pencil for marking wood it must be as close as possible to that tolerance.
Anything else just doesn't, well, cut it.
Being a young old fart I'm sticking with my old fashioned carpenters pencil. The ones that are flat on 2 sides so they don't roll off the bench. Heavy duty enuf so ya can sitck em in your back pocket. Work great for outlining cuts done with a marking knife and ya can sharpen em to a fine point if ya need to.
Then again there's always a 5mm or 7mm mekanikel pencil who don't like to sharpen.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 3/9/2008 8:56 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Bob,
Like you I have them carpenters' pencils, which are satisfyingly fat. I sharpens them to a point with my marking knife, which then ony takes an hour or two to resharpen itself, back to the necessary 1 micron edge.
There is a draw full of them cheaper propelling pencils - plastic, 5mm leads with a back end containing 3 spares; somehow they found their way from my desk at work (spit) when I was there some years ago, as I did a lot of writing learned papers at home, which needed many pencils. :-)
Philip mentioned, so I acquired, an even finer leaded thing (0.3mm) which is good for making marking knife cuts more visible. They snap a lot, as they are delicate and I am not.
Charles doesn't need a pencil or a marking knife - he can just use the edge of his tongue.
Lataxe, who has everything in his magic shed, often for "reasons" he can't recall.
Squire, them fat things you mentions are history and continued use in this day and age is indicative of either a disturbed mind or a carpenter mind set.One envisages a prickly be-capped old journeyman from the last century, on his last legs and down to his last Stanley (laminated) iron. Even the round ones are for eejits and small boys and girls at some schools. Consign them to the boiler fire.
You do realise that there are two types of them propelling pencils- those which snap easily and those special ones made for draughting work which do not break easily? (Then ofcourse there is the parker ball pen re-fill which besides being highly visible is good for getting into tight corners.
Philip Marcou
Funny you mentioned a Parker, because I did use a Jotter a whole lot recently out in the shop. Maybe that's the answer, a plain ballpoint pen.
Try it- the re-fill, I mean. I favour them because of the shape- the upper part still has a sizeable reservoir, but the lower part is thin-good for tight areas. I also have one fitted into a marking gauge.Philip Marcou
BC
Serious response, here. Check out your local office supply in the drafting area. If it's a decent store, it should have the rotary sharpeners for 2H and 4H lead pencils. I've been using them since college, and they are the best. You just put it in and spin, and the lead comes out to a razor tip point.
Mechanical pencil setup is cheap, the lead is cheap, and they sharpen in about 10 seconds.
Jeff
Any online drafting supply would have them, too.
I use leadholders and feel like I need to baby them. I just want a decent wood pencil. I think L-V sells some they charge a bazillion dollars per dozen for so I might break down and check those out.I think I'll splurge on the L-V pencils, maybe order one of their bevel up planes while I'm at it and see what all the fuss is about.
Edited 3/10/2008 7:31 am ET by BossCrunk
After bemoaning the quality of modern-day pencil sharpeners ( and spending $$ for what we thought was quality) my wife found the holy grail . X-Acto makes one that works like a dream. It has the ring on front with various sized holes. She bought it from Amazon.com but it might be available from Dick Blick art supply. Our family happily sharpened every pencil we could find.Someone else suggested sharpening the sharpener. That thought crossed my mind after using my shop sharpener to chew up some pencils. My attempt involved sharpening a dowel, applying green honing compound to said dowel, inserting dowel back into sharpener and finally turning the handle backwards. Did it work? It's hard to say, maybe... a little. Perhaps there's another, better method. Peace
Mark
Thanks much for that tip.... will try.
Hey boss--long time no talkie.
Because I have to mail order pencils (or remember to pick them up on the trips to the big city), I simply buy them from Lee Valley:
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?&p=32538&cat=1,42936,43509
For the shop pencil sharpeners, I'l long used these wall mounted ones. Last trip to the big city I got another from an art supply place, but they are cheaper at LV:
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?&p=32281&cat=1,42936,42452
The pencils are top quality and a good range of hardness/softness. The sharpener for the shop walls are the same brand as I used in grade school.
Take care, Mike
This one is my favorite!
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=45504&cat=1,42936,43509The lead seems to last forever before it needs to be replaced, and the built-in sharpener does an excellent job. These things are tough, and sufficiently ugly that the kids won't "borrow" it to take to school!Regards,Ron
I have yet to find a pencil, mechanical or otherwise, that can withstand repeated high-velocity visits to a concrete floor, which seems to be my modus operandi for pencil use.
My laptop contains accelerometers that detect a free-fall condition and withdraw the hard drive heads from the platters before the machine hits the ground. I need a pencil with microprocessor-controlled airbags that work the same way....
-Steve
Concrete floors in woodshops, Argh!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Great Gawd Almighty! 27.50 for a pencil? Well you won't see me buying one of those. My ability to lose those things is inversely proportional to the price.I use a Dixon Ticonderoga #2 or #4, bought by the dozen from Office Depot. My pencil sharpener is a mechanical one ripped off the wall of a schoolhouse classroom about to be demolished. If I need a "Scary Sharp point," four swipes on a piece of used sandpaper and I'm there.Cheers, Ed
Uh....my sentiments, exactly!
Harry
Following the path of least resistance makes rivers and men crooked.
It's funny you mentioned that - you know what I can't find? A damned decent manual pencil sharpener. Or maybe it's the pencils. All I know is that they get chewed up.
I'll bet Derek has the answer.
Charlie, I must ask first of all, are you referring to a bevel up or bevel down pencil? The approach is quite different in each case. Particularly for BU where the tip angle is so much more important. You can get away with a multitude more of spelling errors when using a pencil BD.
I would use the WorkSharp for all BD pencils. Mind the fingers though.
For BU I do prefer to do these freehand. I can show you the correct pencil grip should you need to know how.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Edited 3/9/2008 10:34 pm ET by derekcohen
Funny... love a guy who can laugh at himself.....I mostly drool on myself.
Edited 3/10/2008 7:29 am ET by BossCrunk
"Charlie, I must ask first of all, are you referring to a bevel up or bevel down pencil? The approach is quite different in each case."
I don't care who you are, that's funny right there! Laughed so hard I thought I might pee my pants.
Edited 3/10/2008 11:38 am ET by tsgraz
It's funny you mentioned that - you know what I can't find? A damned decent manual pencil sharpener. Or maybe it's the pencils. All I know is that they get chewed up.
I couldn't agree with you more. In my real life job I spend a large amount of time contouring maps. Computers don't have enough imagination, so I do it by hand. Unlike most of my co-workers I use wooden pencils. Most of the pencil sharpeners would chew up the pencils. It wasn't until I raided a retiring co-workers office that I found an early 1980's electric sharpener... Amazing.
As for the shop, I'm still looking...
L,
Your arris is safe from any goings-on, illicit or otherwise, as far as I am concerned. Not that there is anything wrong with that.
Ray
philip,
Well as they say, your mileage may vary.
I have one of them new-fangled diamond impregnated plates, albeit a smallish one. And I took Mr Williams' suggestion, and worked it over one end of my India stone.. It smoothed it right off, to the point that it cuts less aggressively than the end I didn't mess with. MY mileage only.
I like the diamond plate for coarse work only, use it on my pocket knife, which gets rough treatment, and frequent re-sharpening, after paring fingernails, or scraping dog-doo from boot soles, then cleaning carbon from the spark plug on the mower. It cuts very aggressively, but leaves a fairly rough surface: I can see, but not quite count, the individual scratches it leaves behind. The diamond plate is terrific for sharpenng the kitchen knives, which I cannot for the life of me convince the wife ought not go into the dishwasher.
I freely admit I am becoming an old fart who sees little reason to quit doing a thing simply because there are other, "modern", ways of doing it.
Ray, afraid he will fall off the edge of the Earth if he ventures too far from home
<!----><!----> <!---->
"Happy thou art not, for what thou hast not, still thou striv'st to get; And what thou hast, forgett'st<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
U-shaped stones? Nay not at all my friend. For I have the best and lowest in cost flattening device known, a free cement block. The stones are flat smooth and true.<!----><!---->
Good sir Napie,
I am well aware that I am over-thinking it. That's what caused my frustration and subsequent rant. If I was as confident and experienced as you I would be able to shut out all of the hysteria surrounding the alchemy of sharpening and be on my merry way. Alas, I am not, so I find myself influenced by the hundreds of articles, videos, demos, and threads such as this one and I begin to doubt myself.
As I mentioned several times, I do not have a good frame of reference (how sharp is sharp?) so I don't know if I am overdoing it, underdoing it, or what. My goal is minimal fuss. My goal is 2 or 3 stones and 15 minutes (and maybe 2 minutes for a touch-up). I realize that the initial setup will take some time but an hour and a half seems ridiculous to me. But again, I don't know, and that was the basis of my initial post. I didn't clarify that very well, in retrospect.
So, with all that said, would you be willing to share your secrets to getting a new plane iron into shape, and perhaps am approximation of how long you think it should take? I would appreciate that very much.
Thanks.
Most nights are crystal clear, but tonight it's like he's stuck between stations.
Edited 3/6/2008 9:49 am ET by JJV
Where do you live? You need to see somebody do this first hand, in a ramshackle shop you wouldn't let your dog stay in for fifteen minutes.
I'll have you in and out in a few minutes and if you'll quit reading all this $hit these fool idiots post about sharpening you should be good to go for the rest of your woodworking life.
I promise.
Edited 3/6/2008 10:03 am ET by BossCrunk
I was hoping you'd show up.
I live near Boston, a ways from you if I am correct. Thanks for the offer though.
Most nights are crystal clear, but tonight it's like he's stuck between stations.
My intution, JJV, is that your edges are more than fine and I'd be happy to work with them. Hell, they're probably better than mine.
I know; they cut fine, so I am probably getting exercised about nothing.
Most nights are crystal clear, but tonight it's like he's stuck between stations.
A sharp edged implement is a tool pregnant with possibilities. It can be kind of intimidating, really, to acquire and tune a set of tools to a condition where they can accomplish work.Don't avoid the blank canvas. Relish it. If they cut fine then time to move on.Your work doesn't have to be as perfect as you think for it to be beautiful. I frankly cut a couple of gappy top rail dovetails yesterday. Nothing too bad. I wouldn't photograph them and send them to FW. I did knock them out in fifteen minutes though, they'll hold perfectly fine, and when the top goes on the table, will never show. Some guys will practically get a strangulated bowel reading this. Their whole being is invested in perfection measured, quite literally, to a minimum of three decimal places. It's not healthy. It's not art. And it must be foisted on other people to have any hope for an air of legitimacy. Don't buy it. Please.
Edited 3/6/2008 3:53 pm ET by BossCrunk
It's hard to remember sometimes, through all the static, to relax and enjoy the process. This is all fun for me-just a hobby-and it's really easy for me to get caught up in the little things and forget what I'm doing all of this for in the first place. Occasionally I need a reminder, so thanks.
And thanks to everyone else for chiming in with advice. I can take something out of everything posted.
Most nights are crystal clear, but tonight it's like he's stuck between stations.
"I know; they cut fine, so I am probably getting exercised about nothing."
There is a difference, though, in an edge that cuts well "right off the stone" and an edge that cuts well for a long time. That's the real motivation for spending a couple of extra minutes to get the edge just a little bit closer to perfect: It will last quite a bit longer (unless you drop it on the floor--which I did yesterday afternoon to a Lie-Nielsen block plane blade, !@#$%). As someone said earlier in the thread (paraphrased), "Sharpen more in order to sharpen less."
-Steve
Hey, good point; I can handle a couple extra minutes, it's just the hours that are wearing me down.
At least you can re-grind the LN blade yourself-I once dropped my Ridge Carbine TS blade on the floor, breaking 4 teeth. That is now one reeeeally expensive blade!
Most nights are crystal clear, but tonight it's like he's stuck between stations.
Edited 3/6/2008 12:21 pm ET by JJV
If you're in Boston, and you can't make that Harrelson Stanley sharpening seminar, there's another class at the Woburn Woodcraft on sharpening on Saturday, April 26, 10:00 AM - 4:00 PM.
I saw that; thanks. I think I am volunteering at the Run of the Charles kayak race that day...
Most nights are crystal clear, but tonight it's like he's stuck between stations.
Bossy,
if you'll quit reading all this $hit these fool idiots post about sharpening
Now that's more like it. I was getting concerned that the old PosterFormerlyKnownAs Charles had left us! By the way, whatever happend to RyanC? Last I heard he was riding off into the sunset with you, never to be heard from again.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I think he moved over to Woodnet to get those guys to send him a bunch of free tools. He found a home over there. Tool collector haven.
I’ll be traveling a bit more for business soon. When I’m in Beantown I’d be happy to show you the “secret” of the, (not my) simple system. If it takes more than ten minutes, then the suds are on me. If less, well I can drink a lot…<!----><!----><!---->
I would indeed take you up on that if you were so inclined. Thanks.I do enjoy a good brew myself.
Most nights are crystal clear, but tonight it's like he's stuck between stations.
Yeah, please do; I've been looking for an excuse to visit there.
Most nights are crystal clear, but tonight it's like he's stuck between stations.
Will do.
Hate to waste a reply on this, but thanks.
Most nights are crystal clear, but tonight it's like he's stuck between stations.
Can we say, "Scary Sharp"? I use it and love it. Automotive type wet/dry sandpaper on a piece of 1/4" glass. Works for me.
Harry
You guys do of course realize that this subject could keep the thread running well past the 2500 or so on the LN plane thread. Lots of great advice on the techniques so I won't add a thing there, but will offer this.
In my work we use planes and chisels constantly and obviously must stop during the day to hone things back up to snuff. I actually keep multiple blades for most edge tools and when I leave the shop each evening I grab the days blades and take them to the house and enjoy the solitude of no television, no conversation and just the gentle whisper of steel on stone followed by the slap of steel on a strop. This time of year I get done just about time to see the mountains turn deep purple and the stars begin to peak out from the sky.
No rush, no heavy thinking and you know after almost 22 years I still occasionally have an evening when they just won't get as sharp as I'd like. Then I put them down and go for a walk with hubby and all is good again!
Stick with it, follow the advice the others have provided here and remember karma is there you just have to let it in!
Madison
Most poetic. Thanks for the nice post.
Oh yeah, you're right-this thread does have some legs, doesn't it?
Most nights are crystal clear, but tonight it's like he's stuck between stations.
Edited 3/6/2008 4:02 pm ET by JJV
Maddie dear,
I think your karma might have just run over my dogma.
Ray
Sorry, guess I just don't fit the bill as a "real" woodworker cause I much prefer a powered sharpening system. Period. Same results in a quarter of the time. I just prefer to work wood instead of being pissed off by my poor talent at hand sharpening. If they had a Veritas or WorkSharp a hundred years ago I can just about guarentee they would not only used it but thanked God it existed in their lifetime as I do.
Brian
Brian,
There is no need to be sorry or fit any "bill". Whatever works for you is the way to go. I would like to think that most folks here are happy to discuss any and various methods for doing any woodworking procedure- whether it be furniture designing, timber preparation , joint cutting, tool fettling/modifying/making/grinding/honing, machine maintenance/modifying/building /destroying, use of hand tools , use of machines,you name it.It is a forum not a re-education camp.
What I believe is not wanted is that self appointed Gestapo supercilious sneering image building mentality which seeks to Instruct, Dictate and Define The Chosen Pathway From Which No Diversion Will Be Tolerated - as if eternal excommunication and lack of recognition from, or admission to, the Brotherhood awaits. (All in stentorian tones).
At any rate, persevere with at least some hand sharpening methods- they do come in useful. (;)Philip Marcou
Thanks Philip, Knots is a wonderful forum, and as you have said, not a re-education camp (nicely put!). A lot of great folks with different opinions and that's what makes it great. I take it cafeteria style. Take a little of this and that and leave the other alone!
The one thing that I do keep in mind is most of the folks here probably have quite a bit more experience then I do. Like yourself for example.
Thanks again, Brian
I'll agree with you that, were the technology available back then, woodworkers of yore would definitely have availed themselves of it. I'll disagree about the Worksharp, though. I purchased one, could not get it to work satisfactorily, and returned it. I would never say anyone was not a "real" woodworker because they don't use grandpa's oilstones. Whatever works. I hear what others have said about a collection of methods and accoutrements seeming like one was "trying to see what sticks", and that makes sense especially in my case. Though in my case, it's more because I never actually learned. I'm also not immune to the siren song of make-it-easier promises.
Most nights are crystal clear, but tonight it's like he's stuck between stations.
Thanks and I agree. Hope I dont have the same problems with the worksharp. I have had good luck so far and it came highly recommended from folks here on Knots.
Thx, again.
Brian
LV sells a simple little sharpener that clips to your belt. I use it daily and it's never mashed a pencil.
Jim
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