would someone please comment/educate me as to the pros and cons of shapers vs router tables?I know each has it’s own capabilities but which is best for what?
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Replies
Starters.
Get a good router and lift. By good router I mean a 3 horse monster like the PC. With this set up you can do every thing a shaper can except large mouldings and very deep complex profiles. If you find that you are making piles of doors and want to run moulding then you will want a shaper and a power feeder.
You will continue to use the router set up whether you have the shaper or not.
Mike
Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
The easy answer is if you are doing a lot of cope & stick doors or raised panels, you need a shaper.
Even so, you can do the above with a router ( 3hp vicinity) mounted in a table -- and you will have it available for all the other tasks a router is better suited for than a shaper.
********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
NIkki,
You might want to describe what you mean by "a lot of cope and stick doors". Some people think that one kitchen's worth of doors a year is shaper territory. I think that you mean something like that much a month.
Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
Pat's (Routerman's) article probably tells you most of what you need to know. If you follow the router-lift idea very far, you'll find out quickly how expensive that venture can become. Take a look around and you'll find many routers that have above-the-table height adjustment built in -- this is a relatively new development in routerdom, and is much more affordable than getting a lift. Whether it works just as well.....other members can speak to that.
A good router mounted in a solid table is a versatile set-up that you'd probably use even if you have a shaper also.
Shaper = EXPENSIVE CUTTERS. Not hard to spend $600 - 1,200 per cutter set (take a look at http://www.lrhent.com) if you dont like the insert cutters. I bought mine to build interior doors, but if I were only going to build a small quantity of cabinetry doors I am not sure i would do it again. It is much more stable than any router bench I have used, but then again i have never bought one of the nice tables that are on the market today.
http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/shapernx.html------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
"Shaper = EXPENSIVE CUTTERS"
What utter tosh! A Euro safety cutterhead costs around $150 and takes replaceable HSS or WS insert tooling at around $20 to $30/set. If you insist on buying brazed carbide tooling then you will pay the big bucks, but none of the European manufacturers like Leuco, Leitz (the guys who own Onsrud cutter), Oppold, Freud, etc are going that way. It's all replaceable tip/insert technology nowadays.
The biggest pros of a shaper are:
1. It can generally make a large profile cut such as panel raising in a single pass, including large rabates (read "end dados")
2. The surface quality is often better than that of a router
3. Tenoning is relatively easy on a shaper - much more accurate and less hassle that on a router table as it is all one pass
4. They are quieter
5. A shaper has an induction motor which will run all day long without burning up or needing to cool down
6. Shapers will allow the use of power feeders which many router tables won't
7. It is considerably cheaper to have custom cutters made for a shaper (with insert tooling) and with HSS/WS inserts it is possible to modify the shape with the aid of a bench grinder, thin wheels and stones if a stock shape isn't to your liking.
8. Try cutting a 3in high moulding on a router table and see the difference
I'm not saying that router tables are no good, but as soon as you start to do joinery work a shaper is the only way to go
Scrit
Edited 5/17/2007 1:17 pm by Scrit
Edited 5/17/2007 1:18 pm by Scrit
drater ,
I currently have 5 shapers set up and running in my one person shop . I have 4 routers and 1 router table . I would never be without a router table or hand held routers and bits . They both have their places in custom and production works .I need and use both , depending on the exact cut and profiles needed determines which one I use .
I try and keep each machine set up to do repetitive tasks like stile and rail cuts , crown moldings , raised panel cutters , edge treatments . Router tips can be changed in short time , shapers take a bit longer to change over .
The limitations are different as well as the applications they get used for .
Your needs and uses will should dictate which machines will perform the tasks at hand , what uses will you be needing either tools for ?
dusty
Most will get FAR more use from a router table (and the router bits that can be used anywhere because the router is portable) than they will from the Shaper. I purchased a 3HP shaper before I had a router table... I wish I had gone the other way. For me, it was a case of "more power" and less brains :0) There are many tools that bigger = better, a shaper is not one of them.
Dont get me wrong, shapers are great... If I made doors all day long or had to run hundreds of BF of molding - the shaper is the only way to go. If this meets your needs - don't get anything smaller than a 3HP unit. The smaller shapers are pretty much junk. Lastly, do not plan on using router bits in a shaper because most of them top out at 10,000 to 12,000 RPM.
As a hobbyist, I get far more use from my router table than my shaper. If I had it to do all over again, here is how I would do it:
Purchase a good 3 HP router. I would select the Triton for the above-the-table height adjustments (hey, no routerlift!) and the fact that you can do one-handed bit changes (around $225.00)
Purchase or make a good router table and fence system. These do not have to be fancy. I've seen a plywood top and a jointed board work wonders (around $10.00 to more than $800.00)
Tbagn,
Yup , I had a router before I had a shaper .
About 30 years ago I needed a Router table so I made a quick and dirty only temporary model , just to get me through the job I was doing , basic no frills .
That temporary table has had miles and miles of moldings and such run over it , and yup , I'm still using it , only temporarily though .
Your statement sounded like less than 3hp shapers are junk in your opinion is imho way off base and without factual collateral . I have an old Delta genuine 1hp full size shaper that will out perform any 3hp router on any day .
I have several 2hp shapers that will also out perform any and all routers as far as power goes . So talk nice about the old iron workhorses , they were born before us and will die after us in all probability, show some respect .
regards dusty
You are correct. I should have said that the smaller shapers that I have seen were not as beefy as the 3hp models.
Oh, and if you get a shaper - plan on purchasing a power feeder too. If you don't, count to ten when you're done... just to make sure you still can :0)
Edited 5/18/2007 8:22 pm ET by Tbagn
"Oh, and if you get a shaper - plan on purchasing a power feeder too. If you don't, count to ten when you're done... just to make sure you still can :0)"
??? Is this another piece of bias? A spindle moulder (shaper) is no more dangerous than a router in a table. In fact it is probably somewhat safer. What makes either dangerous is the misuse or non-use of appropriate break-through fences and pressure guards (what we call Shaw guards and the Swiss/Germans call SUVA guards). If a spindle moulder (shaper) is properly guarded there will be no risk of a hand contact. Power feeders are, however, preferable to hand feeding for another reason - they ensure a constant feed and therefore a superior surface finish. The same is true whether or nor they are used on a spindle moulder (shaper) or router able. Spindle moulders (shapers) acquired a fearsome reputation in the days of square cutter blocks, slotted collars and French heads - these are disappearing fast (in fact in Europe they've already gone)
Scrit
Hiya Scrit ,
Agreed a power or stock feeder on a shaper can indeed be a wonderful thing . I only use the feeder on one of my five shapers . As you said the results can be superior with the elimination of chatter and such , besides the feeder takes a lot of the work of pushing and pulling out of the picture .
Imo , I can do a better job of some tasks without the feeder , certain cuts and such . When I run crown and other long and larger moldings I use the feeder .
We will keep working on our young friend's silly notions and thinkings , by the time we are done with him he will be sleeping on silk sheets.
regards from Oregon
dusty
I agree that you should get a power feeder if you get a shaper. The justification that most people use for needing a shaper is that they are making a lot of doors. If you are making enough doors to really benefit from a shaper, then a power feeder would also be prudent. While shapers are not inherently more dangerous the power feeder makes them a lot safer. Also shapers (because of their larger diameter cutters) tend to cause a lot more chatter. A power feeder eliminates this. The down side is that power feeders are very expensive.
Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
I'm not sure what you mean by a lot more chatter. I don't find that to be the case, it's just that the surface finish of anything (bandsaw, rip saw, shaper, even a router table) will be better if a power feeder is used. even without a feeder if the work is held using a SUVA guard and a break-through fence (which acts like a zero clearance insert) is used then I can't see how you'd get any appreciable chatter. What you won't get with a shaper is scorch marks from cutters and edge dings from using bearing guided bits.
Scrit
Hi Mike ,
Really we all get used to a way of doing things that we find comfortable and more or less routine . The method you and I use may vary from the next guy , but who's to say which is right or wrong ?
The end results imo are what is important and of course being safe . One friend of mine runs between 50 and 250 doors per job , he currently has 10 shapers set up in his shop but not one power feeder . This guy does very beautiful work and has an excellent reputation so who we to say he is wrong ?
Sometimes I only need to run a pair or two of doors for smaller jobs , having the shapers set up and ready to work is efficient and saves set up time and when we forget or have to re make parts it is no hassle .
I agree power feeds take your hands and fingers away from the action and can be much safer and a lot less work while producing superior results . Imo a shaper does not cause any more chatter than a router table set up does . Shapers do chatter more without a feeder or feather boards or hold downs , but not really more than a router run without feather boards as well .
dusty
Dusty and Scrit,
I am definately not saying that one is right or wrong. You guys sound like you are talking from the perspective of a pro. If you are not sure weather you should get a router table setup or a shaper I don't think you are a pro. That was the posters question. If you arent sure then you should go with the router table.
As for the chatter issue. When using large bits The chatter is a lot more noticable especially on harder woods. If I am carefull I can minimise it. I am not talking about chatter that you can easily feel when feeding, but after the parts are machined the shaper leaves more pronounced machining marks that are harder to sand off. If I follow with a lighter finishing pass there would likely no be a problem, but on the router I dont need to do that. Two passes for the rails and stiles and two or three for the panels. The advantage of a shaper with a power feeder is that you can get pretty good results with one pass and great results with a second finishing pass.
Most of what I am writing up there is a matter of opinion. I am saying "better, nicer, smoother" but if you don't know what my finished product looks like these are meaningless. At the very least when I am done there are NO machining marks at all. The profiles are as clean as they would be if they had been made with a profiled hand plane. Most custom shops sand with 220 after machining or they dont sand untill after the sealer if applied. They don't mind that the machineing still shows. Which is fine. I know that few, if any, of my clients notice the difference. But no matter how I try I can't turn off the perfectionist in me. And because of that I am likely destined to stay broke. heh heh.
Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
"......but after the parts are machined the shaper leaves more pronounced machining marks that are harder to sand off."
Let's agree to disagree here. I don't suffer from this problem, and I'd say that the vast majority of spindle moulder (shaper) user don't either - if they did they'd all give up on the machines. What is true, though, is that in every case I've done a little bit of teaching on the spindle moulder thate once people start to use it the don't go back to using the router table. There must be a valid reason for that (I grind/regrind my own custom profiles, that's one). I've also been involved in sorting out spindle moulder problems for other new users and I've found that chatter on spindle moulders (shapers) is the result of poor quality tooling, incorrect selection of tooling , too low a spindle speed, too high a feed rate or inconsistent feed rate or lack of hold downs, etc. (frequently a combination of more than one of the above). There is a bit of science in selecting feeds and speeds, but it's not rocket science, simply basic maths, and in general tooling manufacturers are more than willing to help you sort out the problems.
I'm trying to view this from the perspective that a 3 HP router, router table and quality lift will cost as much of not more than a basic shaper and yet seems less capable - in my eyes.
"Most custom shops sand with 220 after machining or they dont sand untill after the sealer if applied. They don't mind that the machineing still shows. Which is fine. I know that few, if any, of my clients notice the difference. But no matter how I try I can't turn off the perfectionist in me."
In that case I'd suggest a return to the French cutter - just watch your fingers!
Scrit
Edited 5/21/2007 1:03 pm by Scrit
I don't recall anyone mention using a horazontal (spelling?) router table. I've had alot of good luck with my homemade set-up.
drater..
The vast majority of router lift tables I've seen are accidents waiting to happen.. they are light and small and whenever a heavy object is placed on them extremely tippy..
Because we are all familar with using a router we seldom treat router tables with the respect they deserve.
My personal take is the screaming noise they emit is above the threshold of pain.
Small shapers will do everything that a router and lift table will for much less cost. Now I personally like the bigger 3 hp shapers and don't find the $975 dollars that Grizzly gets for a shaper too expensive.. It's extremely easy to spend that amount on a good router and nice lift table..
The reason for my preferance is that I don't like to double or triple pass something. I feel every time you put something past the cutter you stand a chance of a mistake. Why double or triple your chances of a mistake? Routers simply do not have the power to single pass those big cutters available..
I've heard the nonesense that cutter heads are expensive.. well I'm looking at all sorts of cutters available at Grizzly for $21.95 (OK $22.00)
Door sets seem to be priced around $225.00
A comment about shaper costs versis router bit costs.. it's true that shaper bits are about 25% higher in cost than comparable router bits.. against that shaper bits remain sharp so much longer than router bits..
Working with the white oak in my home if I tried to do it with a router I would have had to sharpen the router bit several times.. I make my own flooring and a router bit would be actually worn out by now.. meanwhile I haven't had to sharpen my shaper cutters and feel no need to sharpen them yet..
Routers are needed, there are some places you simply must use a router but to put a router into a lift table and ask it to do the work of a real tool is asking too much..
I know wood woirkers like to make jigs and adapters to make one tool do more work, but if you have the need for a lift table then you have the need for a shaper
The most complete and concise answer to my question yet.Thank you for your input.Drater
One of these days I should get one or the other. You are convincing me.
I think you need both. I have a Bench Dog cast iron table and lift and it is great for small jobs. I have the cast iron table mounted to a Delta heavy duty shaper that I use for larger pieces. I have a Hammer B3 saw/shaper with tilting spindle and sliding table for the big jobs. It will accept 1", 1 1/4" and 30mm cutters.
Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans .
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