I am setting up a new shop and have several tools that run on 220 circuits (Delta 5 HP unisaw, Powermatic 20″ Planer, Powermatic 8″ jointer). In my last shop I used a 30 amp double pole breaker for each circuit, and used 10/3 NM w/g cable from the panel to the receptacles. I used 20A, 240 V receptacles. These have a place to connect two wires, plus the ground. If I remember correctly, I had used the 10/3 NM w/g wire and connected the red, black, and ground lines at the receptacle, and just capped off the white (neutral). Is this safe/recommended? It seems that it was on the advice of an electrician that I did this, and I never had any problems.
Would it be better to use a 30 A 240 V receptacle and connect all of the wires at the outlet?
Thanks
Joe Duffy
Replies
What you did was fine but you paid for an extra conductor that you didn't need. 3 wire plus ground is used on some appliances where you need both 220 and 110, fo example a dryer uses 220 for the heater and 110 for the motor and timer. If you should hapen to get somthing that need the 220 and 110 , say for a light, then you would need all the cinductors.
Jack
Three wires are also needed when wiring three phases appliances.
Alastar Moody
GEEZ I just saw the pic on your profile... I know you from somewhere.....
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
Yes it is a drawing from Harry Potter saga. Its name is Alastor 'Badeye' Moody ... ;-)_______________
Alastar Moody
If I understand your post, you have twin 30A breakers protecting 20A outlets.
This is dangerous.
The outlet amperage is determined by the machine (i.e. 15 amps), but I believe a 15A 220V plug fits into a 20A 220A outlet, though this may depend on where you are.
The minimum wire size should be selected to match the outlet amperage. Its OK to oversize wire, but if you over oversize it, you'll have problems with the outlet.
The breaker should be sized to the outlet, i.e. 20A.
Imagine something happens and the saw draws 25A. This is a dangerous and likely destructive situation for the saw, but would not throw the breaker.
If I understand your post, you have twin 30A breakers protecting 20A outlets.Agree 100%.. As I recall the circuit breakers/Fuse are to prevent fire in the used electrical WIRING .. NOT to protect what is attached to that wire/outlet.. OLD Electrical Engineer here but that was back in Vacuum Tube days.
Back when it took 3 different batteries to run a portable radio and televisions had chassis?
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
Many low-cost machine manufacturers recommend (wrongly in my view) sizing the breaker to the motor to compensate for their lack of overload protection at the machine. A proper starter with overload protection is easy to come by new or used and is a much better option.Before anyone wades into the "protect the wires" vs. "protect the device" debate, please search the archives as it's all been done before.Pete
Edited 8/20/2006 2:09 pm ET by PeteBradley
I thought the code was written for safety, not what you can get away with.
The circuit as described is hazardous. Any 20 amp 220 volt appliance such as a space heater could be plugged into that outlet by anybody who doesn't know the outlet is not properly protected. The space heater could fail and catch fire but not throw the breaker.
I'm not an electrician, but I can tell you I wouldn't do that, and the inspector here would point it out as being unsafe and not recomended.
But hey, if you want to knowingly create a hazard, go ahead ...
I believe you are correct, the breaker should not be rated for more current than the wires or outlet can safely carry.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
Firstly you should match the circuit breaker to the draw of the motor, i.e. a 30 amp breaker for a motor that requires 26-29 amp, a 20 amp breaker to a motor that draws 16-19 amp. That way if the motor overheats, or something goes wrong it will trip the breaker. I have a panel with both 20 220 volt female receptacles and 30 amp 220 volt female receptacles on it. My individual machines have the opposite male plug in either 20 amp or 30 amp on them. This prevents me from plugging in the wrong machine into the wrong receptacle
William Moss
Edited 8/18/2006 4:33 pm ET by williamoss
A much better option is to use a starter with overload protection at the machine instead of trying to match breakers to machines.Pete
Edited 8/18/2006 8:32 pm ET by PeteBradley
Actually the breakers purpose is to prevent the overloading of the wireing and out let not what you plu into it and should be sized acordingly. If you are going to plug a 20amp saw in a 30amp circuit the saw then should have a fuse or breaker. Do you change the breaker for your lights when you only have one light on the circuit and it only draws 1 amp?
Jack
I am an electrician and what you did is just fine. you won't ruin your machine unless you stall it out and walk away from it. Then you will burn out the motor. Most electric codes have a derating factor for thr breakers. This means that you are only allowed to put a certain load on each breaker before you have to up-size the breaker. In Canada this an 80% factor. You can only put a max of 80% of the breakers rating. A 30A breaker is only allowed approx 26A continuous load. This is to prevent nuisance tripping and burning up the wires inside your walls. remember when you start your tools there is an in-rush of current and if you breakers are too close to the actual Full Load Amps (FLA) of the machine you may end up tripping the breaker every time you turn on the machine.
Hi Dan,
Same in the US we can't load a breaker to more than 80% unless the breaker is 100% rated -most of course aren't -and in the case of motors the 125% of the motor full load amps is the minimum breaker size.
I'm curious does Canada use NFPA 70?
Gary
I'm not sure. what is NFPA 70? What does it say?
Oops sorry NFPA 70 is our national electrical code. it says pretty much what was already said, but as this national fire protection association has some international recognition i wondered if Canada ever referred to it
but no I just googled it myself looks like your bible is-
CSA C22.1-06 Canadian Electrical Code, Part I (20th Edition), Safety Standard for Electrical Installations CSA International 03-Jan-2006 ISBN: 1554360234 605 pages "Whatever you can do or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius, power and magic in it. Begin it now!" -Goethe
"In my last shop I used a 30 amp double pole breaker for each circuit, and used 10/3 NM w/g cable from the panel to the receptacles. I used 20A, 240 V receptacles."
This sure looks like a code violation to me.
"This sure looks like a code violation to me."
Me too.
NEC 210-21(b)(1) "A single receptacle installed on an individual branch circuit shall have an ampere rating of not less than that of the branch circuit."
NEC 210-21(b)(3) "Where connected to a branch circuit supplying two or more receptacles or outlets, receptacle ratings shall conform to the values listed in Table 210-21(b)(3), . . ."
Table 210-21(b)(3) shows a 30A receptacle for a 30A circuit.Be seeing you...
Good Morning,
What you should look at is the amps that the machine(s) will draw with the 220v (230v) setup. You are using 20 amp outlets, which is probably fine. Your 30 amp breaker is not matched. More than likely, the machine will draw only 10 to 15 amps on the 220. So plugs are fine. I would rather see you match the breaker to 20 amps.
The 10/3 wire is of really no concern. The "extra" wire is not connected to the panel, therefore draws no power, or is not "live." For now, it is just there. Some electricians I know would even run 12/2 on your set up. I would not, but you are safe with the 10/3, but I am not comfortable with the 20 amp outlet on a 30 amp breaker. Look at what the machines draw at 220v and I think you will find 20 amps all the way around will be ok.
detailman
Morning detailman..
Going to drop a dedicated one receptacle 220V into my shop for a BS in the next few weeks. 37 ' from the panel to the receptacle location. Using 10/3 with a 30A breaker and 30A receptacle. Machine actually draws 21.8 A continuously after start up surge.
Do you agree with the match-up or have another suggestion?
Regards...
SARGE..
Good Morning SARGEgrinder47,
Well thought out. Your amps are within the limits, and the distance of 37 ft is fairly long, so the 10/3 will work well to help with keeping resistance down. It is good the circuit is dedicated as well. Good luck with the 10/3, especially if you have never worked with it. It is "stiff" stuff, making bends a little more difficult and the "feed" a little harder as well.
detailman
Thanks for the speedy reply, detailman. I will probably use aluminum clad as the cable will be exposed across a ceiling in my shop supported by pipe clamps attached to joist every 48". I've run 110V 20A's down both sides on the wall with receptacles every 5" (12/2) with 20A receptacles.
Almost a straight run from the panel to this receptacle. Will have about a 3' turn before the straight run begins and then another turn straight down the outer wall that the receptacle is attached to. I will probably use metal junction boxes in those 90 degree turns. As you stated, that 10G is stiff enough to walk tight-wire with.
I usually pull and strap it down, but always let my qualified electrician check the final set up and make the connection. That way there are no issues in the unfortunate circumstance that home-owners insurance comes into play somewhere down the road.
I can connect it, but I owe it to my family, myself, my tools and the insurance company to have that professional certify it. He is a friend and building a baby crib for his first born has paid vast dividends. ha.. ha...
Regards...
SARGE..
Hi SARGEgrinder47,
Your wiring is somewhat similar to mine. One thing I did that you did not mention, was that I put in a few 20A GFCI just in case water became an issue. Although they often are questioned as being all that good, mostly because people don't check them, in theory, they should work.
Good luck with your project.
detailman
Evening detailman...
I did use the GFCI's at the first receptacle on both my 20A line series. I wasn't sure on this dedicated 220V and was going to ask my electrician his thoughts on it. If I only have one receptacle, it would have to be the actual receptacle at the end of the dedicated line? Does the GFCI come in a 220V-30A set-up? I have never seen one, but then again I have never looked for one either as this is an isolated situation and unique in my previous experience.
Regards...
SARGE..
http://www.spaandpoolsource.com/browseproducts/QF230---GFCI-Circuit-Breaker--30-Amp.html
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
Thanks for the post dg... I suppose that answered the first question.
Regards...
SARGE..
Good Morning SARGEgrinder47,
Wow, I did not expect you to start such a flood of responses from your quetion. A previous post regarding the 30GFCI breaker is not a bad idea. I also have never seen a 30A GFCI outlet. It seems you have generated many "opinions" regarding your wiring. Your best source is your friend, the electrician. He knows local codes, etc. Electricity is not that difficult to understand or wire. Yes, your machines have power surges on start up, which should be accounted for. Did you notice how the 10/3 wire was only briefly mentioned? And, by the way, the statement was correct. Too small is a problem, not to "big."In reality, correct wiring can protect all things in the system. Machines that draw to much power through the 30A breaker into a 20A plug can cause signifigant problems. A constant pull of 22 amps from the machine will sail through the breaker and the wire, but the outlet
"won't" like it. Different plugs for different machines and amps is a good idea, it keeps you "honest" in the plug in. On a lighter note, wow, this must be one big BS to pull this kind of power. Mine is an 18" 220V pulling only 11-12A. Good Luck,
detailman
Morning detailman...
Yes, it has proved to be interesting as I didn't start the thread. I had a good working know-ledge of everything except the 220V. But sometimes "I think I know" doesn't turn out to be "I know". And before I take that final slack out and squeeze the trigger, I want to eliminate any doubt of "I think" and replace it with "I know" with help from those that are qualified and "time tested" with what they know. :>)
It's a MM16 (almost a done deal.. IWF show this week here in Atlanta) pushing 4.8 HP (forget the HP rating.. I'm not going there as you want to see controversy, mention HP on rating on electric motors). ha.. ha...
Regards as I'm off to work to pay.. to pay.. to pay for my play...
SARGE..
Hi SARGEgrinder47,
Boy, I am glad you do not want to open up that H.P. can of worms. That will draw even more comments than one can imagine. Good luck with the new machine. Bandsaws are great machines. And the little 14" ones are ok, but you really don't know how good they can be until you get a real good one. I hope everything works out well.
detailman
Sounds like you have the same set up as I have. Is it a MM16? I have one question though. I was looking for a cord and found a 10/3 cord but it said on the label - "no more that 20 amps." Does that mean we have to go to a 8/3 cord to run 22 amps? As far as the gfci on a 220 volt circuit, my electrician didn't install any and past posters have mentioned that they are not required by code.
Edited 8/22/2006 12:27 am ET by tinkerer2
NEC Table 400-5(A) says that 10 gauge cord of the most common insulation types (like SJ and SO) are rated 30A for 10 gauge, 25A for 12 gauge, and 18A for 14 gauge for two current-carrying conductors.
It sounds like that cord is a listed (like UL) extension or replacement cord with molded ends. If the plug and/or receptacle end is a NEMA 5-20 (125V, 20A) style, then it would be limited to 20A regardless of the cord gauge.Be seeing you...
Thanks for your response. I couldn't imagine why the #10 cord wouldn't work. Why would they make one up that would carry no more current that a #12. If I can't find anything else, I might still have to buy that cord and change the ends.
Good morning tinkerer...
It is the MM16 if the physical comparisons at the IWF show this week in Atlanta backs up my month's research looking at BS's. And I have a suspicion it will. I have the show price locked down with a deposit with the opportunity to withdraw after looking over all the various gift horse's directly in the mouth and putting them through the paces.
I think I will by-pass the GFCI if my local E agrees as I intend to keep the breaker turned off when not in use. The panel is in my shop with easy access. After checking with the "chief of range and dryer operations" to make sure there is no conflict of interest between our intended time of use, I can flip it on when I need it. Just to be sure, the range and dryer circuit breakers will get switched off when the BS breaker is on and live. I control the electrical panel, as is "southern tradition". She has control of everything up-stairs. ha.. ha...
Haven't been there with the machine cord yet, but will check that also with the certified. I believe what kanzler says about 10/3 cord. If it's rated for the actual wire run with a 30A-30A on both ends, why not for a machine cord if the cord plug is also a 30A? Questions that need to be solidified before the fact though, IMO.
Regards...
SARGE..
If everything is properly wired, the appliances and the shop will be on separate circuits and circuit breakers. There should be no need to switch off one breaker before you can switch on the other. What you are describing is strange, shouldn't be needed, and if it were needed it would violate all sorts of code.
John W.
Edited 8/22/2006 5:47 pm ET by JohnWW
And you are correct John, it shouldn't be needed as all is well within code an not a problem. The remark about flipping off the circuit breakers was sort of a joke directed at my wife as the tendency is something I say goes in one ear and go out the other without heeding it.
But... but... I will flip off the circuit breaker on the BS when not in use. I can control matters when I am at home, but I am not always at home and children and children of children are somewhat fascinated by machines. I flip the breakers on both my 20A shop circuits when I am not in the shop now. The 220V will get flipped off also. No power , no power tool facination and start-up. Life is simple.
Strange?? Maybe to you. But IMO, sometimes safety goes beyond following an electrical Code, etc. I sit down with a cup of coffe and ponder "What if"? 34 years of not burning anything down and no shop accidents that could have been avoided with pre-thought. Seems to have worked so far. :>)
Regards for the evening...
SARGE..
There is nothing strange about turning off the breakers if children might go into the shop, in fact it is a wise idea. I only thought it was strange that you would have to turn off the breakers so that your wife could use the dryer.
John W.
She was peering over my shoulder when I was typing that post. Another one of my humorous and clever ideas as you might say I was driving my point directly home about who's in charge. :>)
And BTW.. the knot on the side of my head caused by the blow of an eloquent, feminine hand with a wedding band attached is healing quite nicely. Sleeping on the work-bench in this humid Atlanta heat the last several nights has been a bit un-comfortable, but she counters it gives me more direct control of what happens with that electrical panel "I am in charge of" and well worth the in-convience! ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Regards for a great day...
SARGE..
Sarge,
I fully understand..... and sympathize.
John
I had been gathering info for quite some time. Posters on this forum have been giving the MM16 a good report so when I was down in Austin in July I poked my nose in their store. I was received very well and talked myself into buying it. I don't have it hooked up yet and, as I have never run one before, I am a little nervous about trying it out.
I used the MM several years ago at the Atlanta show before they beefed the column even more and added another 1.3 HP. At that time the competitor was using a saw made by a company other than current, so I have not seen the newest edition personally. At that time there would have been no doubt as to which I chose.
I have never seen ceramic guides in action. They say they throw off "cold sparks". What are cold sparks? Does saw-dust accumulated inside know how to distinguish between "cold sparks" and "hot sparks". No reports of a fire created I have heard, so I suppose they do. ha.. ha...
I just have some Major questions about the comparison. I know the MM as it is made by the same company as always with a few weaknesses solidified. The other guys went to a new source entirely for whatever reason and I want to see what the results of changing boats in the middle of the stream has brought before I make a final conclusion.
I wouldn't worry to much about the BS. Proper set-up, execution of technique with matched blades relay to a much safer machine than your TS with a lot more versatility IMO. That blade moving down.. the ability to rip Very thick stock, veneer, curve cut, crosscut thick stock, etc. gives you the ability to broaden your range of projects.
Good luck and keep posted with your progress...
SARGE..
This may be getting a little off the original post but since you offered - here goes. First off, if I were to make any complaint on the MM16, it would be the manual. If a foreign company sells in the US, it would be so nice if they could get a US native to translate or even write the manual instead of hiring someone who has taken a little English to translate the thing. That said, it seems like a very well designed and built machine.
My immediate question is how to aligned the guide wheels. When I install a narrow band, I cannot get the back wheel within a half inch from the band because the guard is in the way. Another question is - instead of the usual wiring color code, one wire is blue, one an off red, and the third is yellow striped green. Which of the wires is the ground? With answers two those questions, I suddenly become an expert bandsawman. Ha Ha.
According to the manual the yellow/green is ground.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
Thankyou dgreen, That is one less problem in life's enfolding experiences. Where in the manual do you see that?
It's on page four, just in case your manual is different than the one on their website here is a link...http://www.minimax-usa.com/manuals/BANDSAWMANUALFINAL(1).pdf
I did'nt see any thing I could point to as a solution to your guide problem, but apparently there is a problem with the guides on some of the machines and they give a phone number to call for a fix. I don't know if it relates to your problem but a call to them might save you some puzzelment.
Good luck, nice machine.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
Oh, what a difference, I cannot even find the word "wiring" in this manual. It seems to be written by an Italian who doesn't know English very well. So many manuals that way. Any way, I got the wiring supplies but haven't completed the hookup yet. The on line manual seems much better.
I've found the online manuals to be better and more up to date so often that it's the first place I look nowadays. Almost all of the manuals that came with my machines leave a lot to be desired. I have a list of bookmarks in my browser just for tool manuals. Not perfect but it has gotten my butt out of a sling more than once. Let us know how you like the saw once you've had a chance to use it. Better to have a good machine and a bad manual than vice versa!
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
I just reread the manual and it says to remove the guard before adjusting the thrust bearings. Would this eliminate your problem?
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
Thanks guys for the comments to me and to each other re this bandsaw. In answer to your question of removing the guard. I can see how it might help to remove it to adjust the guides, but I can't see how you could put the guard back on with the guide wheels in place because, after adjustment, the back wheel would be in the way. Outwardly it looks like the answer would be to cut a chunk out of the guard to fit it over that wheel. Of course that isn't the real answer. I will await an answer from Sarge when he sets his up. Probably something simple and obvious. I am completely inexperienced with the band saw so I am hoping by getting a good one that it will partially make up for inexperience. Enjoy woodworking so hope I can spend more time with it.
Evening tinkerer2..
Actually, it is part of the answer. As I mentioned, this is a sized down version of the commercial Centuran's (sp) and really designed for the larger blades. The "cool-blocks" I mentioned are made smaller, will give better support to the smaller carbon steel blades used in curve cutting and keep them cooler than the Euro guides. Those Euro's are more geared for bi-metal, spring steel and carbide which have much higher heat tolerances without dis-tempering the blade than carbon steel.
The cool-blocks are much smaller in statue than the Euro's and will give you more clearance and designed to sit further back toward the thrust bearing a blade 1/2" and under. But... there's more!
The guys at MM get rid of that bottom portion of the guide al-together. Take a close look at it. It is really useless in effect. Notice the U shaped slot in the front. They used to have a useless piece of clear plastic as most Italian BS's that was worse. Couldn't see thru it with saw-dust cake. The manufacturer switched to extend the guide around 2" farther down as it sticks out of the "armadillo tail" (that telescoping piece above the guard that tele-scopes inside itself).
Neither the plastic piece or the extra length of metal guard extending beyond the "armadillo tail" all the way to the guides are really necessary. But according to Euro safety code they are. Hence, to get the saw out of their country under Italian code, you get it whether you want it or not.
Solution.. you can cut a chunk out as you suggested. Better yet and as the guys at MM do on the floor models they demo and their home machines, they scribe a line just above the U slot all the way around and cut the entire piece from the top of the U down off with a hack-saw. File it down to get off the sharp edges left by the hack-saw blade and you're ready to go without an ounce of safety reduced. And after careful study of it, that is exactly what I'm going to do even though I got the cool blocks thrown in at their cost.
Just a few more tips.. With a blade 1/2" or less, center the blade on the wheel to track. With 3/4" or more, track the teeth of the blade just off the front edge of the tire. It will save tire wear and wear and tear on those carbide teeth that are delicately brazed on if you use the expensive carbide.
Hope that helps sort out the problem. The good news IMO, it is a minor problem and can be solved simply. Caution: if you do saw off the bottom length of guide and ever visit Italy, don't take the BS on the trip as it won't clear code at Customs and make it back in country! ha.. ha...
Regards...
SARGE..
Looks like dg got you covered on the wiring. I believe I recall in an hour conversation with Erik Loza at MM that the yellow-greeny is ground as dg stated. My electrician mentioned that ground can come in several wrappers on foreign motors and yellow-green was one he mentioned.
As with all machines, as Shakespeare said; "Roses have thorns and silver fountains mud". Those Euro guides are not really designed for the carbon steel contour cutting blades narrower than 1/2". They make as set of "cool block guides" listed in the accessory section. Narrow carbon steel blades are sharp but if you get them over 400 degrees, they will lose temper, dull and become useless. When contour cutting the guides need to be really close if not touching to support the blade and resist twisting.
Euro guides are not the ticket here and the "cool blocks" get the call. The Euro's come off easily and the "cool block guide assemblies" go right back on with as much ease. I am keeping my smaller bandsaw with "cool blocks" just to avoid changing blades and guides.
But.. I did get them to throw in the mobility kit with a set of cool blocks at their cost with the "show cost". Anticipating the future if the motor goes eventually in the smaller saw. I won't replace it, most likely.
Now, I am not aware of the space variance you mentioned. I am guessing that will be taken care of by switching to cool blocks as the assemblies are smaller in statue and probably retracted to get closer to the blade? You might try tracking the blade up close to the front of the tire and see if that provides the proper clearance. If that is not the case, we will need to call tech or your salesman at MM and get their scoop on it. I will try to remember to ask the question Saturday at the show!
I see it as minor as this bigger saw is geared down from the much bigger commercail Centurian (sp). I think I would have seen a comment on it on the YaHOO MM users site (and I dug back a year) if it were an issue. I'm curious to see how those ceramics on the competitor hold up if you get a blade with a bad weld with excess flashing That rear thrust bearing can take a beating with that lump of flashing and I'm not sure if ceramic can with-stand it as the metal guides? That's one reason why it's important to round the back of that blade with a stone to take out the square corners and reduce drag in contour cutting and to massage a flashed weld down to smooth to reduce friction on the thrust brg.
BTW.. I'm not sure if anyone in tech is there. You can call, but I have a feeling they are all here in Atlanta as the IWF is an international show for vendors to show their new wares to a world market. Have a feeling that most will be at that show covering as it is of major importance to the manufacturers.
But.. we will get the answers. Just a matter of when...
Regards...
SARGE..
Edited 8/24/2006 1:04 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
Edited 8/24/2006 1:06 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
I think his problem is that he can't get the blade close enough to the rear bearing so moving the blade further forwards would compound his problem. I'm not familiar with the guide/guard arrangement on that saw so I don't know what to suggest other than to give them a call. The manual calls for having the teeth on the blade just protruding beyond the ouside of the tires but I could'nt tell from the manual what to do if the guard interferred with bringing the thrust bearing up to the blade. I'll bet it's something maddeningly simple, thats a nice saw.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
After going back and reading his post carefully, you are correct dg. I went to the MM web-site and I cannot get a clear view of the rear thrust bearing adjustment under the guide as it showed it from the front. The guard tele-scopes with the large guide post which operates with a chain and pulley. I can't remember from using the saw 4 years ago, but it seemed the rear thrust guide adjuster was open and not obstructed by the guide bar or guard?
I will take a look at the floor model at the show and ask for sure as taking the guard off does not sound like how they would design it? But.. all things are possible I suppose. Then again, I'm going to call tomorrow to see if anyone's home as my curiousity is up.
Regards...
SARGE..
Mine too, let me know what transpires if you would.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
Evening dg... see post 56 for explanation of the thrust bearing problem tinkerer had.
Been a long day...
Regards...
SARGE..
I saw that, I'm not sure who deserves more kudos for customer service, you or MM!
I bet it has been a long day, enjoy your evening and get off your feet for a while!
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
Whew, so you made the plunge. From reading the post on the Laguna thread, I don't think we made a mistake, even if we do have to saw off that bottom part of the guard. Until about six months ago, I thought I would buy the Laguna. I had the dvd disc and it is very impressive - probably better presentation than that of the MM. Then I started getting little remarks from this forum like you were getting and I wound up getting the MM16. Taking a while getting the thing going in my spare time, but I have high expectations. I think this forum is great!
Thanks for that last explanation, by the way. Very helpful. Did I get you right that you will use the cool blocks on the narrower bands even with the bottom part of the guard sawn off?
Oh, by the way, it will probably be a while before I have to take the BS back to Italy.
0
Evening tinkerer..
I had used the MM 16 4 years ago at the show and there was no comparison at that time to the two BS's. But.. Laguna had switched their manufacturer and I had not seen the new saw. I will say it is a big step up from the one they used to field. But.... the gap has definitely not been closed IMO. Service after the sale is an issue in itself.
Yes, the cool blocks would be a great investment at $85 if you are going to use the narrower carbon steel blades and do a lot of curve cutting and scrolling. Carbon steel blades are in-expensive, but carbon steel will dis-temper over 400 degrees and be rendered dull and useless. The cool blocks give better guide support on those narrow blades and are usually im-regnated with graphite or similar to reduce friction. You just have to keep the faces of the block squared up, which is simple. You can even make cool blocks from hard-wood once you have the CB guides.
And like you, it will probably be awhile before I will even go to Italy. They all know where I live if they need me and the welcome mat is always out! ha.. ha...
Have a good night in West by Golly.... :>)
SARGE..
Have a good time at the show, I'm going to try to make it to the AWFS next July in Vegas, I really enjoyed last years. I'd love to go to the one in Atlanta too but I hate to fly and Vegas is halfway to my son in San Diego. I would like to see Atlanta at least once though. Maybe if I get rich and famous I'll take a road trip.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
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