The comment in another thread about the “DUBBY” reminded me that My Craftman TS could be used to mix martinis. The Dubby people sell a kit with turned pulleys and a link belt for $50.
However, before I spend the $$, I have a question about my TS.
The motor is on a pivot. The belt essentially holds the motor up. Or another way to think of it is that the weight of the motor keeps the tension on the belt. The motor must remain free to bounce because as you raise the blade, the motor moves slightly towards the blade (the belt gets a bit tighter.) With my saw, it is possible to raise the blade too high such that there is so much tension on the belt that the motor will not turn (1HP).
Will turned pulleys and a link belt be worth it where the motor is free to bounce?
Thanks,
Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
Replies
That's like putting mag wheels and shiny rims on an '78 Gremlin.
If you want a ts that purrs and has plenty of power, now would be the time to upgrade. A 1 hp motor even with link belt and a re-furbed pulley will struggle.
Funny, I knew the first response was going to be "Upgrade" BUZZZ - no sorry, wrong answer. Not an option right now. I've already spent my $1000 in the shop for the year so I'm $ challenged.Saw does fine with 2" oak and a good blade but anything sitting on the table or below will walk off if the saw is left running long enough...
Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
I think there may be something wrong with your motor mount if the belt gets tighter as you raise the blade. This shouldn't happen, there should be some play both up and down that allows the weight of the motor to hang on the belt. You should look into the set up and make sure something isn't stuck or on backwards.
The link belts and balanced pulleys will improve vibration to a certain degree. They won't change a horse's color. They could reduce vibration by 25% which is certainly noticeable but maybe not enough. I know you are aware, Mark, of checking out all the bolts in the stand, aligning pulleys and generally tuning everything up. The link belt will take away any belt slap if the motor is mounted correctly. They last a long time and can be transferred to another machine, pulleys too.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
If you plan on keeping the saw for a while, I think it's a worthwhile investment. Before my PM66 I had a Craftsman TS and did the pulley and link-belt upgrade on it. It made a very noticable difference in reducing vibration, making the saw quieter, and the saw just felt like it had more power. Not real sure if this is right, but I think the benefit from the link belt comes as a result of it gripping the pulleys a little better than the conventional belt can.
With the underpowered motors on the Craftsman TS's anything's possible, but I can't believe the blade-height/belt tension vs stalling is an issue.
Waddaya mean it wont fit through the door?
It could be an unbalanced armature in the motor. If you have a local electric motor shop or a machine shop they could check and balance it for not a whole lot of $. Even less if you can take it apart. Everytime we had a motor rebuilt (up to 3500 hp) balanceing the rotor was always done. Sometimes it was the only problem.
KDM
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Mark,
There is not an issue with your saw, as far as the belt tension vs raising the blade. It is designed that way.
The reason is that as you raise the blade you are cutting "thicker wood". The belt needs to be tighten so it won't slip as you cut. Even when you cut mitres it gets tighter, because you raise the blade some as the angle increases. You are cutting that "thicker wood" at an angle.
Having said that I have/had the same saw you have. Mine is a 1967 model Craftsman 1hp. As you said it will cut 8/4 oak just fine.
I found on mine, as you probably do, have the belt too tight by a smidgen at it's lowest setting. Yes, then it would get too tight as you raise the blade.
I think the pulleys were too small from the factory back then. If you look at the belt on your motor it really "bends" around the pulley. When not in use that belt will get a "set" in it. Guess what, VIBRATION. Tell me, worse in the winter time huh? Cold really puts a "set" in it.
I installed the pulleys/link belt on mine and it made a very noticeable difference in the saw. The link belt will "bend around " the pulley a lot better. That is where the claimed smoothness comes from. I think the link belt by itself would have been about as good.
It is a fine adjustment at the low end to get the belt tension just right. Easier with the link belt.
My experience / 2 cents worth.
Hope it helps ya some.
Jimmy
as always I wish you enough
Mark,
had the same prob with my Craftman saw. Corrected the 'dancing' by affixing an extension spring to counter the upward movement of the motor and mount.
Raising or lowering the blade's height,makes the distance between the drive pulley and the driven pulley further apart or closer. That's why they incorporate a hinged/gravity motor mount to take up the slack.
Attach a cleat or eye bolt to the lower section of the rear of the saw cabinet... also attach an eye bolt to the bottom rear of the mount.
Try attaching different tensioned springs till you eliminate the bounce
The link belt is not expensive and takes away lots of vibration. Steinmetz
Edited 6/16/2005 10:28 pm ET by steinmetz
Jimmy, Steinmets - Thanks. Glad to hear from some experienced craftsman owners.I thought about a "compression" type spring betwen the motor mount and the plate to reduce the bounce, I don't have many springs to choose from in my collection - either too strong or too weak. Can you post a pic of your solution?Yes the pulleys are small and the belt takes a tight turn.I'll be placing the order tomorrow :-)Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
Mark, the craftman saw I refered to is long gone'
but springs can be bought at any hadware store.
They needn't be too strong. Try connecting two in tandom? (even bungie cord will work) The other 'retro' I made to the saw, was Eight flat steel 1/8"x 1'' bracing strips attached diagonally to each leg and cross braced to form four X's across opposite legs to stiffen the whole unit. The strips are the ones used in steel shelving. They brace the saw somwhat like the girders of a bridge Also, attach a nut and bolt at the four crossing points. That'l make the unit tighter'n than a clam's a** (And that's waterproof) Stein
Mark ,
Is the vibration a new feature with this saw ? Or has it always done this ? You need to try and pinpoint the source , have you removed the belt and turned the motor on to see if indeed the motor itself has a bearing or shaft problem ? Belts crack in the seams and pulleys get tweaked , also the flange or the arbor or bearings may need replacing . I have owned several Craftsman ts over the years and honestly vibration was never an issue . I am pretty confident you will be able to find the source and correct it without UPGRADING just yet .
good luck let us know dusty
Are your pulleys aligned side to side? If the belt isn't "square" with the pulleys, it adds to the vibration.
Dave, I've fiddled with the alignment a bit and I think I've got that part all set. I was taking a close look at my pulleys. One of them looks like it's been squeezed and re-opened so the belt is probably riding up and down on the pulley. (not always seated properly.) Of course the belt has some set to it. I remove the belt and it always goes back to the same shape with the "ends" always in the same place. as I understand it, the belt should not have "ends"Thanks,
Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
I replaced the cast pulleys on my Craftsman TS with machined pulleys and went to a link belt a few years ago. Those changes plus making sure that the side-to-side alignment is right made worlds of difference. In fact, I haven't had to adjust the alignment since I changed pulleys and the belt. - lol
I have the Craftsman 3hp (1-1/2 hp motor) purchased in the early 90's. Mine, too, would stall when the blade was fully raised, but what I found was the arbor pulley contacting the underside of the saw table. Shifting the pulleys inboard 1/8 to 1/4 solved that issue. Vibration has never been a problem with this saw as long as all four legs are on the floor. ;) A lot of wood has gone thru this saw, though nothing compared to a pro shop. Still running the original belt!Onward through the fog.
Chuck Whitney
Thanks All,I placed an order today for the link belt and the machined pulleys.I'll have them installed by the end of next week.I'm also going to engineer a spring to keep the motor from bouncing.Thanks for all the input.Best,
Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
Mark,
Before you spend any money, you should check a few things. First, take the belt off your motor. Make sure your pully set screw is tight and turn the saw on. If there is no vibration, your pully is not out of balance and your motor is fine.
Next, use a straightedge and make sure your motor pully and arbor pully are co-planer. Rotate your motor on its mount and slide your pullys in or out to adjust. Now, put your belt back on and check if this solved your problem. If that did not solve your problem, THEN buy the Dubby link belt. You will notice a big difference.
Regards,
Dan
The motor is on a pivot. The belt essentially holds the motor up...
I think many Contractor type saws do that.. My sort of new RIDGID do that!.. But NOT a V belt.. I'm not sure the proper name but has a belt and pullies with ridges... Hardly any vibration...
How old is your belt?.. Could be just a dried up old belt with sawdust packed under it??
Hi, Mark...
All the info re machined pulleys, link belt, and pulley alignment are right on the mark. My Craftsman responded amazingly to those tweaks. I've avoided the need to replace the saw with a handful of other improvements - it's become a pleasure to use - hope they'll be helpful for you:
You mentioned that one pulley looked a bit strange - my friend, if that pulley has even few thousandths of deformation, it'll toss a standard belt up and down fast enough to make the whole shootin' match vibrate madly. Glad to hear that you ordered machined pulleys and a Power Twist belt.
If you've placed sufficient strain on the drive/driven assembly to actually slow or stall the motor, I'd urge you to carefully check your arbor for runout - that much force could bend it.
Your experience with apparent binding suggests another possible uh-oh beyond the potential for pulley/table interference. Note that there's a guide plate mounted to the motor with a curved slot in it. A bolt runs through the slot and into the head on the motor mounting posts. If the bolt restraining that plate is too tight, then the motor won't pivot freely, and will place a tremendous strain on the belt, and, worse, the arbor - could bend it if you're too forceful. It's a pretty dumb arrangement, as the bolt has a lock washer that you don't dare tighten. If the heavy sheet metal plate is bent, that too can cause binding as it travels. If that bolt/plate stuff isn't the culprit, then I'd urge you to take a close look at the motor bearings - they're inexpensive and easy to replace.
The final item that has made mine almost as solid as a cabinet saw is to have added bolts between the sheet metal case and sheet metal legs. My legs were fastened to the case about 3" from the outside edges, and the whole mess was wiggling. Just adding a single 1/4 bolt at each corner, and just as far to the outside as I could drill a hole, made an immense difference in top stability and perceived vibration.
The one remaining fix I had to introduce was arbor replacement. Sears doesn't have an arbor for my machine that's worth a hoot (I ordered and rejected two before concluding that I had to design my own.) Machining is so poor that it can't properly mount a dado set, and it's too short to be worth much. A redesigned arbor may add immensely to your machine's versatility and reliability. I posted my arbor fix here under "tabale saw tuneup":
http://primeshop.com/access/woodwork/
Best of luck to you - hope you're able to save enough on the saw to put a different goodie in your shop!
Regards,
---John
I will check the arbor for run-out but I don't think I bent it (i hope)
I learned quickly not to tighten the bolt in the curved slot - long ago. For the longest time, I didn't even have a bolt in the slot. I just put one in recently only for some lateral (side to side) dampining. I'm also thinking of puttin a spring on the bolt between some washers to add a small amount of friction.
I'm not getting a clear picture of where you put the additional bolts. I'll have to go down and look at my saw with your description in hand (unless you want to post a picture) :-)
Thanks for posting your arbor replacement as well.
Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
Hi, Mark...I'll be glad to get a pic of case/leg bolts. Give me a day or two - gotta do a little taking apart to get a clear shot.Incidentally, I re-read your original post. Apologies for possible misinterpretation of bindng "problem." Mine's the same - there is no fixed stop for upward travel, and at high point the arbor sheave can be forced up into the table underside. Actually, it's the belt backside that makes contact, and is a pretty effective brake. I've cultivated the habit of trying the blade by hand when near max elevation, just to be sure that it's free before starting the motor.If you extend your arbor, the same problem can occur - at the opposite end - with the arbor or nut hitting the throat at 45 degrees and max elevation. That's assuming that you've mounted a 29/32 dado blade and that the nut is at the extreme end of the arbor - otherwise, the nut is not at issue. Be sure to check that the specified length will indeed allow the nut and/or arbor end to clear both the table throat and the underside of your throat insert. (If the prob exists after all's done, it simply means that you'll sacrifice a bit of blade height at 45 to avoid interference at the throat - not a deal-breaker, but another point to check before applying power.)Throat inserts:
Since the throat on that table is non-standard at 14-3/8 long, I've been unable to find commercial zero-clearance inserts and perforce fabricate mine from net 3/4 stock. If there does happen to be a spot of interference between (thick) throat insert and arbor end, it's simple enough to form a little relief pocket in the insert underside with a gouge or rotary burr.---John
Edited 6/19/2005 2:21 pm ET by John
Hi, Mark Sorry to have taken so long - was looking for my last remaining pencil ....My saw tuneup routine is now posted, including pix of the reinforcing bolts. http://www.primeshop.com/access/woodwork - "Saw Tuneup" link.
Hope it's helpful.Regards,---John
John, after looking at you pics, I see that my TS is much older than yours! I don't have the stand like yours but I'm sure there is stand/saw vibration issues....Thanks for posting - gret site and collection of stuff...Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
Hi, Mark ...So ... have you been able to resolve issues with your saw?
I ordered the kit last monday. It hasn't come yet. I tried to call them Friday but got a machine (the guys that sell the Dubby sell the pulleys and belt). If I don't get it monday, I'm going to cancel the order and try another supplier (Hartville Tool).I've been patient because I haven't needed the saw. I'm in the final stages of assy of my sofa table. But the next project looms...Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
Hi, Mark ...Grizzly sells the PowerTwist belt for the least cost I've found. You probably need the 1/2". Machined cast pulleys are common - you should be able to find them (in whatever diameters you measure as OD for saw and motor) locally at any shop selling bearings or similar drive components. Be sure to check motor and arbor shaft diameters for bore size!Regards,---John
Edited 6/26/2005 8:09 pm ET by John
Mark talk to the Dubby people. Cole has a handout that will show you how to align your motor and pullies. I think he sends it with the kit. He has a craftsman saw so he can be very helpful in giving you advice on setting your saw up.
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Serious Vibration Problem .. Wife and I stopped at a Hotell 8 place and we had a BUNCH of quarters....
"Serious Vibration Problem .. Wife and I stopped at a Hotell 8 place and we had a BUNCH of quarters...."Har! Hope you remembered not to get vibrated off ... the, er, bed, that is.Just remembered one other item of importance. Pretty obvious, and you've undoubtedly thought of it, but better said than left unattended. Have you checked relative vibration with no blade? The less expensive blades can be pretty bad, and raise quite a ruckus. Also, if you use blade stabilizers, be sure that there's one on both sides of the blade! (They'll reduce effective maximum blade height, and can even cause the motor to bog if you raise them into the throat insert.)And ... I trust you're using the factory dished blade washer under the arbor nut? (Or a proper substitute?) The arbor flange OD is the same diameter as that of the original blade washer. If the blade washer isn't in place, the nut can distort the sawblade against the arbor flange's hollowed center - a LOT. If the blade washer is lost, a machine shop can make one inexpensively - just have 'em make a heavy flanged flat washer that mirrors the arbor flange.And .... sheesh - where does all of this come from? ... undersized arbor diameter can cause a terrific out-of-balance effect, as it won't center the blade on the axis of rotation .. it'll vibrate yer table right good like.And - ya might take that motor into a motor shop and have it checked. If it's going bad, it'll take about $130 to replace it.So much for my "one item" ...
John/Mark
I'll echo the comment about doing something to stabilize the sheet metal legs. John's fix with the added bolts seems to have worked. On the Craftsman saw that I used to have, I took some hardwood rails about 1.5" wide and bolted them across the legs (on the I/S of the leg angles) about halfway between the top of the legs and the floor. Those sheet metal legs tend to splay and flex quite a bit.
Waddaya mean it wont fit through the door?
Hi, D2C ...Appreciate your jumping in - thanks for remarks. Am considering a variation of your approach - see what you think...I'd looked at adding cross-bracing lower in the leg structure (such as you describe), but was hesitant to jump at it because of potential hassle with removal of dust bag. The original leg design is comprised of several key pieces (but not all of) a closed 3-D tapered triangular solid, and it seemed possible that reinforcement at that upper outside corner might go a long way toward removing "the wobbles." As luck would have it, the fix was quite effective, though not perfect. Addition of cast iron extensions added enough stress to re-introduce a slight potential for movement. I believe that my next foray will be to add 1/2" plywood panels between legs on the sides only (to preserve easy access to dust bag.) That, too, will be a less than perfect solution, but I'm betting that increasing stability over a significant portion of leg length, even if only on one side of each leg, will bring the thing back to rock-solid practical usability. Am visualizing (2) 1/2" plywood panels (truncated pyramids) at about 12" height, with 3 bolts in each leg at top, center, and bottom, plus one in the upper apron. They'd stretch all the way across and descend from the top of the opening - leaving about 8" to floor for broom accessibility. If plywood tends to flex, it's easy enough to glue/screw a 3/4 x 1-1/4 horizontal stabilizer bar at the panels' midlines. (I'm also betting that won't be necessary.)An unmentioned weak point is that the Sears caster assemblies aren't sufficiently beefy - they can flex a bit. I think they'll need to go away and be replaced with a heavy-duty mobile base.Don't really care if it moves slightly under heavy impact - my only concern is that it remain solid under moving influence of a heavy workpiece, e.g., 8/4 x 12 x 10' oak or the like.
==============================
If I may change horses and address a different comment regarding not spending a bunch of money to upgrade and still have "just a 1hp saw":I've found that I can resaw oak to 7" wide without burning by using 2 passes for each of 2 cuts - thus burying the blade to its full height. Takes about 5 minutes longer, but that's OK if it's not a production facility. Have never had a problem with cutoffs, though it's possible that more HP would speed things up. As it is, I seem to be able to push blades to their limits without stalling, and don't see that as much of an issue. Were I to eventually go to production mode, I'd probably change my tune and acquire the top-quality cabinet saw I've dreamed of but never been able to justify.[ Bein' one little ol' guy butcherin' wood, I can tolerate a few operations that aren't max-fast. Were the saw actually cutting all day long, I think its power shortcomings would evidence themselves dramatically. ]My saw is actually satisfying to use as it's smooth and accurate, and goes as fast as my fat little legs will carry me. Tuneup costs to date are minimal (not counting sweat equity):
$140 Cast iron extensions
80 Custom arbor
25 PowerTwist belt
10 Cast, machined pulleys
50 Misc hardwood for fences, throat inserts, etc.
30 Dust bag
5 Misc nuts 'n bolts
That's about $340 to take a $375 (29 years ago!) saw to a terrific level of performance (with quality of cut the criterion.) Compare to $2500 for a new cabinet saw. I don't count the cost of Incra miter gauge, as that's an optional expense for virtually any saw.[ Aside - after all of these years, I was delighted to discover that the Incra guide bar fits perfectly in the table groove. Craftsman's bar is undersized and fits the groove poorly - not to mention that the entire miter gauge is best used to add ballast to the garbage can. A true 3/4 bar works like a charm. ]My really ignorant error was in purchasing so many middling carbide blades. The jump from $50 blades to $100 blades made an immense difference, and I'm sure that I'd have saved a couple of hundred dollars over the years had I but invested in better blades from the git-go.Had to learn the hard way that 80 teeth don't mean nothin' if'n the danged plate ain't flat. To be fair, blade technology has changed significantly for the better in the last 20 years, so perhaps all of the earlier purchases weren't so stupid ....Keep smilin' ...---John
Cant argue with the bracing making dustbag removal more difficult. Whether you go with ply or hardwood, reinforcing 2 sides vs NO sides is probably still a good idea. I didn't have a dustbag on mine (I know I should have) but don't you really only need access to one side to change it out? I didn't worry about the broom access, as I had mine on a mobile base and I could roll it back to get at the dustpile. I started off with the Sears casters, but agree with you that they pretty much stink.Also cant argue with your economics. I did almost all of the same upgrades that you have, plus a couple of others. There just became a point where I was tired of working around the saw's weak points and finally switched to a PM66. Could I justify it? Probably not, but I still kick myself for not having done it sooner. I ran into the guy I sold the Craftsman to at a WW show a few years ago, and it's still going though. He did NOT get my pricier blades as part of the package though:-)Waddaya mean it wont fit through the door?
"I didn't have a dustbag on mine (I know I should have) but don't you really only need access to one side to change it out?"Technically, yes, but the bags attach at two sides, so bracing on the third would have to be minimal to allow access. Actually, I'm also trying to attack in limited stages to avoid building Fort Knox if Fort Apache will do...
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"I did almost all of the same upgrades that you have, plus a couple of others. "You probably shared them somewhere and I missed 'em, but what are "a couple of others"? Am I missing an opportunity?
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Funny thing about the dust bags- ya tend to keep yer shop a little cleaner 'cause the "black hole" for accumulating debris under the saw suddenly becomes pretty small ....Speaking of which - TIP
Like everyone, I've lost the danged arbor washer or nut in that pile more than once, and hand-sifted every bit of it - twice - before finding the wayward part. Finally realized that I could see the "entry crater" in the sawdust pile if I looked carefully. From there, it was duck soup to clasp a pencil magnet in one of those 24" spring claw grabbers and go fishing through the throat hole - works every time.Best ----John
The other upgrades that I did were: the set of wire baskets that attach to the sides for storing accesories- I actually kept one of them when I sold the saw and have it attached to the PM66. I also put the PALS blade aligner gizmos on. They work well for fine tuning the blade adjustment, but found that I had to remove one of the two brackets after adjusting and re-install the original hardware. You couldn't leave one of them permanently attached without having it interfere with the trunnion when tilting the blade all the way over. And since nothing on the market fit their undersize miter bar slot, I built a tenoning jig for it that I let go with the saw.Waddaya mean it wont fit through the door?
Ah! Am in the process now of building a storage cabinet to duck under one side and house blades, fence(s), miter gauges, push sticks, etc.I hadn't heard that remark about the PALS adjusters - they seem like such a good idea. Even with that shortcoming, I may go ahead and do it anyway - seems that removing/replacing one fastener is inherently faster than doing battle with the ever-moving alignment without them!Interesting remark about the slot. Maybe mine's a newer unit (or older?) - the slot is just right, but the bar is undersized. (It could have been both, I suppose, but I don't think my left slot has worn/widened much since the pin-punched bar fits the right one as well at perhaps 1 or 2 thousandths tighter.)
If the motor rises too much to provide any down force, you may want to get a longer belt for cutting 2" stock. It sounds like the line connecting the motor and the pivot are too close to vertical and this provides almost no weight that could be used to maintain belt tension.
Actually, the belt tension increased so much that the whole thing stopped.
I'm thinking that the belt is too short!
Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
The serious vibration problem is now history.I put on the machined pulleys and the link belt. A few tries until I got the link belt to the right lenght but now the saw just hums. Sweet.There is still a tiny tiny vibration but hardly noticable. I'll bet that after the link belt "settles in" that I won't have that problem any more...Thanks for all the great input.Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
Great! Thanks for letting us know.
I forgot to note that the upper pulley was variable width ! but what made things really bad all of a sudden was that the upper pully came loose.How does one check for arbor runout without a dial indicator?Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
Hi, Mark...You said:"the upper pully came loose."Any help needed there re aligning set screw?
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"How does one check for arbor runout without a dial indicator?"(Before you read all of this - apologies for length - go the bottom and see "The Practical Side" of the equation. Please remember that this is all heartfelt opinion and advice, not guaranteed to be The One Universal Truth! )Oboy. You really can't get a meaningful reading without one. Consider that, if you could somehow rig up a lever device to magnify the variance by 10, then a .001" runout would indicate only .010" at the reading end - just a little more than 1/128th. Even at that 10x, the indicated variation would be so tiny that any imperfections whatsoever in the measuring device will muddy the true reading!Yes, you could design and have fabricated a lever device with precision bearings, custom mounts, etc., and use a feeler gauge to discover variances. However, I predict that you'd be spending quite some time in getting the design right, and then $50-$100 to get it machined. All for a single-purpose device.Thousandths are sort of like faeries - ya may believe in 'em, but there's the devil to pay in seein' 'em! ... with the implication that it's VERY difficult to generate truly accurate runout numbers, but an indicator will help to derive a good picture of how the whole is functioning, and where problems may exist.If I may, I'd encourage you as follows:
You don't need Starrett quality to set up your saw. Allow me to suggest that you review Grizzly's offerings, as they have a number of dial indicator setups in the $20 range that will take care of you nicely. My own experience with the Griz (I don't have their dial indicator) is that quality is either good where it counts or obviously faulty. If your unit should have any tight spots or "grindy places" on arrival, send it back and they'll replace it. Look for both uneven feel and catches in needle movement. (When you land a reliable one, it's going to last 5-20 years in infrequent service, and then be no budget-buster to replace for another $20.) And - it'll be indispensable in checking alignment of blade with miter slot, among other things...All that said, any problems with actual arbor runout will most likely manifest themselves primarily with use of a fairly wide dado setup. Everyday cutoffs and ripping are going to be more affected by flange runout perpendicular to the arbor axis. So - you need to able to measure both - sort of:Arbor runout can be a bit of a challenge, in that the most telling information is going to come from the end of the arbor, and there are threads in the way to catch the indicator finger. BUT - arbor runout isn't actually the issue. You really don't care if the arbor is a pretzel, so long as the blade runs in a true plane (it won't if the arbor isn't true), and there is no induced vibration. Therefore, if measurement of the blade's deviation from true planar rotation are tolerable, then your setup is acceptable.For flange runout, the setup is more straightforward, but rife with hidden nuance. When the blade is clamped against the arbor flange, it will reflect the plane of the flange. However, if blade plate specs allow .003" runout, then you don't know if it's "spot on", or does indeed vary .003" (or more) in and of itself. Actual flange runout is therefore not precisely quantifiable. A Tenryu blade will be within less than .002" face flatness; Freud up to .003"; cheapies may be anywhere, but wherever they are, it ain't likely to be good. You must deduct max mfgr allowed blade plate deviation from indicator readings. If the plate is so bad that its tolerance eats up all the available total, then the arbor must be absolutely perfect (it isn't) for measured mounted blade runout to be within tolerance.If only the flange is untrue, then a spacer or dado stack should yield similar readings with the blade displaced away from the flange. If the arbor is untrue, then displacing the blade will result in a significant change in blade runout readings (wobble.) (You would also find a significant increase in vibration with a dado stack as opposed to a single blade.)You can have made or purchase an alignment plate that's guaranteed to be flat within some tolerance or another. That is, a flat plate about 10" in diameter with a 5/8" bore. Whatever that tolerance is, you must add/subtract it from your indicator readings in order to generate an approximation of flange runout. That is, if your readings are less than the plate's guaranteed flatness, then you'd conclude that there was no flange runout, true or not. If they exceed the guaranteed flatness, then you know that flange runout is present, but you don't know its actual values.By faking a dado set (if you don't have one) with a spacer and taking the same readings with a single blade, you can gain insight as to whether the arbor has significant axial runout. If needed, have the machine shop make a spacer for you - O.D. equal to arbor flange, ID at 0.650", overall 7/8" long (thick), and faces parallel and perpendicular to bore within 0.001"/foot (that's the only spec that's important!) Have one face machined with a cup such as you see on the arbor flange, and place that pointing towards the arbor nut. Add the same blade or plate,add the washer, tighten, and take the same set of indicator readings. If there is nominally no difference between those readings and those taken with the blade/plate alone, then you can conclude that arbor runout is not an issue.[ NOTE: The spacer's large ID is there to allow it to remain parallel to the flange if the arbor isn't true. It will be hugely off-center in any case - the saw must not be turned on when the spacer is on the arbor! ]There's both art and Kentucky windage in interpreting what you find. I'd surely suggest that you perform the measurements for both setups several times, until you're sure that you're getting consistent results.For "glueline rip" quality, max tolerable runout at blade tips is about 0.004", and is the sum of arbor and arbor flange runouts, plus blade flatness. That 0.004" is BIG, and will leave clear toothmarks on the wood. Since it's possible to assemble the requisite pieces so that deviations tend to magnify or cancel at blade tip, several repeats are suggested as a means of introducing randomness with the aim of highlighting min/max situations. (Not statistically valid - you'd need at least ten blind setups to generate defensible numbers.) All you've done so far is to have discovered whether the assembly of arbor, flange, and blade can run tolerably well, or is so bad that it needs to be dismantled and examined with an optical comparator to learn which part(s) need to be replaced or upgraded.OK
Now it's all done and measured and aligned. You've looked for 0.004 blade tip runout and got it, and don't like the appearance of the cut.
1) Try a Tenryu Gold Label or Simonds (SystiMatic) blade.
2) Replace the arbor with one having tighter specs.All of that's money, but the only bucks spent that can't be xferred to a new saw would be for the replacement arbor.From the nature of your questons, I've half a hunch that you'll be well-served with that old 1HP saw for a long time. Other good places to spend your long-term saw money will be for a top-quality miter gauge and fence (in that order), both of which could be xferred to a new saw should you eventually decide to get one. Long/wide workpieces are difficult - keep the saw, spend the bucks on good outfeed rollers, such as Lee Valley's.================================================The Practical SideLong before there were any powered machines, wood was hand-sawn and hand planed in the process of making fine furniture - some of which turned out so well that it's still in good condition and coveted as "antiques." You can make yourself nuts with obsessing over such things as arbor or blade runout, which is worthwhile only if you're truly a machine geek or interested in maximizing production efficiency. Otherwise, so long as your saw isn't dangerous, then it will cut sufficiently well to allow you to finish with hand planing. The beauty and quality of your product rests in your Hands, not your machines.If your interest lies in garage shelving, then none of the super-accuracy issue matters much. If your interest is in furniture quality on a budget, spend your money and effort with good hand planes, which you'll need regardless of saw accuracy. If you want your shop machines to hum to near-perfection just because that's what you want, then go for the obsession!Money looms large only because of its relative scarcity. Time is the real irreplaceable commodity. Personally, if spending a few hours on the saw will save me 20 hours of extra planing, then I'll fiddle with the saw. If not, then it's on to wood butcherin'. From the money angle, you still need good planes, so upgrading or replacing the saw is an added (and possibly optional) expense whose return merits evaluation before commitment.END OF RANT - no offense meant!---John
WHew! Didn't mean to get you into overdrive - No offense taken. Great post actually. So a dial indicator if I really want to get at run-out.Actually, my dad has one and I'm going to his house this weekend. I'll borrow his.Actually I'm pretty happy with the saw now that the vibration is gone, I just wanted to see how a 50 year old TS "measures up" (actually I've always been happy with the saw - especially after adding the Vega fence).The only major improvement left are zero clearance inserts - which pose an interesting technical challenge. The current insert is a 3/32" piece of steel plate. It flexes under heavy loads and is not zero clearance. The replacement has to be of some pretty stiff and strong material because the overhang is also about 3/32" Thanks,
Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
Mark, with the blade removed,and the table insert removed, turn on the saw and just 'kiss' the moving Shaft with a hunk of blue chalk.If most of the diameter of the shaft is circled with chalk,you're fine. If (However,) one small area only is 'highlighted, you have serious 'run out' ( Try this three of four times to be sure.) Try this approach.... prick punch ONE 'Witness' mark on the business end of the arbor. With a red magic marker, daub over the mark to fill the punchmark with ink. Wipe over any excess ink with your finger .Replace the blade and with the marker, 'dot' a mark on the blade to 'Register with the witness mark.
Mark the dot as 'A'
Loosen the blade and add several evenly spaced dots marked: B/C//D etc
With the blade spinning,
Try to find the best register for the least vibration.Some times a 'sweet spot'can be found to offset an unbalanced blade Steinmetz
Edited 7/2/2005 2:57 pm ET by steinmetz
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