Replies

1. 
   wood_donkey | May 28, 2008 04:53am | #1

   Not the exact thing, but the same idea.

   Gary Katz...

   http://www.garymkatz.com/TrimTechniques/hidden_pivot_bookcase_install.htm

   Donkey

1. 
   potomac | May 28, 2008 07:24am | #3

   Wood donkey,Wow, truly amazing, I think I saw a similar article with a pipe attached to the back of the cabinet. This looks way more professional, well perfect. thanks this is really all i need and more, thanks a ton. Only you know how much time and head scratching you have saved me. Well I guess Len knows as well.
   Thanks,
   JohnEdited 5/28/2008 12:26 am ET by potomac

   Edited 5/28/2008 12:38 am ET by potomac

2. 
   Jfrostjr | May 28, 2008 04:49pm | #7

   A remarkable post! We should all be grateful for your material.Frosty"I sometimes think we consider the good fortune of the early bird and overlook the bad fortune of the early worm." FDR - 1922

3. 
   xmike | May 28, 2008 05:32pm | #8

   Hi Gary,

   Both the bookcase door and the article are way cool.

   Thanks,

   Mike d

2. 
   Len | May 28, 2008 07:16am | #2

   I built this for my brother and his wife. He said " Can you build a cabinet to put the printers in and with couple of shelves?" So this is what I did.

   The center book case is on 3/4 dia stainless pins in bronze bushings and sits on a large bearing.

   Len

   "You cannot antagonize and influence at the same time. " J. S. Knox

   
1. 
   potomac | May 28, 2008 07:36am | #4

   Len,
   Does your brother have a picture of you doing something you should not be doing? Do you need or want another brother, aren't we all brothers? Seriously beautiful "place to put the printer" Seriously, Is that cherry, and did you pre-fab the pivot? Did you buy the parts at a local hardware store?
   Thanks a lot for the pics and the inspiration
   John

1. 
   Len | May 28, 2008 08:05am | #6

   There's a whole long story that goes with the cabinet. But I'll spare you most of it.

   Yes, it's cherry. He said "Cherry colored." I did fab all the parts myself. I'll look for a photo or a series of photos. The cabinet was made in three parts. The pivots are captured between the upper and lower carcasses.

   Funny thing was I sent them drawings and photos of the cabinet in progress. When I showed up and started installing it, they still didn't realize what I had done. BTW. Give yourself some tolerance to fit the cabinet. I thought I did but it was like a piston. My nephew and I shoved it in and we could feel the rushing past us.

   Now my sister-in-law says "When are you going to finish the rest of the office?" Len

   "You cannot antagonize and influence at the same time. " J. S. Knox

2. 
   Len | May 29, 2008 05:43am | #13

   John,

   Here's a bunch of pictures of the assembly. I keep a journal of each project with photos so if any don't make sense. I can fill you in.

    Len

   "You cannot antagonize and influence at the same time. " J. S. Knox

   
1. 
   potomac | May 29, 2008 08:52am | #14

   Thanks Len,
   I can't wait to try and pull this off, With you and Gary's help, I have no excuses to botch this one, I will try and post the results in a couple of weeks.
   John

2. 
   boilerbay | May 29, 2008 03:37am | #10

   Very nice work!John

3. 
   oldusty | May 28, 2008 07:51am | #5

         Glad to help out , really sharing and teaching  is the best part .

                       dusty

4. 
   boilerbay | May 29, 2008 03:30am | #9

   Pivot.
   I have done a few.
   Wood Donkey's reference is, for all intense and purposes how it's normally done. But there are always variations. Most hardware on larger units is custom through blacksmiths and metal shops because of the weight to size ratios. As far as hiding it, the swing-in door is the easiest to hide with cover molding etc but not practical for your needs unliss the client lives in an Irish or English house with 3' thick walls. The swing-out door requires the heavy hardware and is used for hidden rooms larger than a closet or when the unit is confined to the width of the wall. The biggest problem with swing out near a floor is the "trace" of repetitive opening. Swing out is normal for emergency or security rooms. Cigar box size or room size, the release spring or mechanism needs to be significantly divorced from the immediate area as it is often of need to be repaired or replaced and also they are a dead giveaway to it's existence. The ideal location for most hidden units of any size are in a corner location as there is normally a multitude of convergent lines to hide it's existence. A steel wire or pull line with a gravity or fall latch is normally more reliable than other spring devices and electrical is out for obvious reasons. For your needs, a spring bullet catch would probably be fine but beware the springs.

   Note: Although not for your needs, building a hidden room requires quadruped sistered joists under the entire length of wall run where the door will reside, done at time of original construction or a major remodel. Massive overkill but for reasons too long to go into here, required.

   BB

1. 
   xmike | May 29, 2008 05:05am | #11

   "Although not for your needs, building a hidden room requires quadruped sistered joists under the entire length of wall run where the door will reside, done at time of original construction or a major remodel. Massive overkill but for reasons too long to go into here, required."

   Are you talking both floor and ceiling joists?  If one were to build a book case into the wall and fill it with books, the static load would be the same.   Yes?  No? 

   Are you saying that swinging that load on a pivot point at 90 degrees to the original plane stresses both floor and ceiling joists so much that 4 of them is required?  Is the same true of the king studs beside the door?  I don't understand.  Why so much redundancy?

   Mike D

   Edited 5/28/2008 10:06 pm ET by Mike_D

1. 
   boilerbay | May 29, 2008 07:07pm | #15

   Mike,As I said secret rooms are a whole nutter mutter. So are the people that commission them. Not applicable to most cabinet or furniture work.
   I don't build the house, just the door, cabinet furniture and pin/plate work. Engineers do the rest. In the past, I would come in when all other work was done on the house and it was vacant of construction crews. A strange empty studded wall in an otherwise fully finished house, rocked on the far side between two rooms facing me. The ceilings are done and rocked and either 1/4 paneled or coffered by the trimmers. Only the lower joists absent flooring and cabinet wall framing was exposed. After the floor plate is in, you work alone.
   The "door" is built in place from the pin up with standard techniques other than double diagonal strapping on the "secret" side. Thickness is normally set 12" shelves on the show side.You are correct. Yes the static load is constant and proportionate, but much, much heavier than a 12' bookshelf. These doors don't hang like a regular doors at this scale. They don't hang like a bank vault but more like jib sail on a mast. The reason for all the weight and overkill is that they can't present "moment" that would give away their existence relative to the other shelves or whatever. The king studs would fill the door frame area as needed for the width and standard header techniques for above.. I have seen 8 x 8 and 4 x 6 Kings used built out to floor joist thickness. Ceiling "could" match to lower joists. I don't see them. Lots of xbracing . The door rides on a single massive pin with a stability hinge (country gate style - pin and strap) at the near the top instead of an opposing pin at the top. On a narrow room, I suppose the ceiling joist arrangement would make a difference but the stress is absorbed across a long span. Or so the engineers have told me.
   Angle tie- beams from king to floorplate lapped thru studs at a 45. The pin and dock must be very precise but open enough for lube. 3/64th would be outside slop at that size. The single hardest part of doing this work is the flawless leveling of the base plate. No margin for error. Balance, weight and true are all centered on that 3" pin. with a hinge high for guidance. These bearing pins are often 3" x 6" on doors running from to 5'. One of the reasons for the floor mass is due the the large geography required laterally on the joist base and linear along the it's run. Often a pin base can be 1" x 15"-20"x 15"-20" inches of manganese steel spanning the joist thru bolted with a receiving plate on the joist bottom. In some cases a longer plate is used and all cabinets and door are bolted to it. Another reason is any weight of that level will have a tendency to stress torque the joist run out of proportion to it's load with the resulting tendency to reveal a the door at the door's location and dip the floor. Piers for under the joists etc etc etc. I don't know how others handle upper story work, all I've done is first story with access to the basement. I'm not an engineer or a carpenter so this is as far as I can enlighten you.
   I came back to one and I can say that after one of these babies age for a few years or so, there is nothing hidden about them. Apparently the owners showed them off so much that they had more use than the front door.All in all a rich man's game. A standard exterior industrial steel door and steel frame with pretty stuff attached would do as well for most.I won't do another one. You might want to check over in Breaktime.
   There might be more info there.regardsBB

1. 
   xmike | May 30, 2008 03:10am | #16

   Thanks for the explanation.  I even understood most of it (I think).

   I don't think that I'll be doing one soon. 

   Best Regards,

   Mike D

1. 
   boilerbay | May 30, 2008 05:14am | #17

   They are a bear!
   John

2. 
   potomac | May 31, 2008 08:10pm | #18

   Sounds more like a griz, thanks and framing is always the key to excellent finish work, at least to us framers turned fine- woodworker's.
   I do appreciate any and all information, and will definately stress test this and beef up where applicable, To refer to the another thread going right now, What should I charge for this Custom gun cabinet/secret door out of "abondoned" white oak. Approx. 3'x 6'. Great Client, has given me lots of work past and wants to do more in the future. I want to give him a good deal (is this a disease), but want to make money as well. We have worked t+m in the past, and have had no problems, so far. What is a safe ballpark? I seem to always eat a little bit off of my safe detailed ballparks in the past,but not much (my wife wouldn't agree). Just curious on someone's idea that has done this sort of project in the past.
   Thanks,
   JohnEdited 5/31/2008 1:54 pm ET by potomac

   Edited 5/31/2008 2:02 pm ET by potomac

3. 
   boilerbay | Jun 01, 2008 06:16pm | #19

   I don't think I can give you much guidance in the "what to charge " area. Each craftsman has the own needs and values. I guess about the best general reply I could give is charge what you would for any case and then add in what you feel your craftsmanship adds in regard to the secret aspect.As a side note, volume, (his) does constitute factoring in a "great deal", but be warned that sometimes your last piece was your last piece. His fortunes may fail or his allegiance may change to someone cheaper or to a cousin or to...Charge what is fair to you. If you both feel it's a fair price, you have made a good bargain.

   RegardsBB

4. 
   potomac | Jun 01, 2008 06:54pm | #20

   Good point,
   Thanks

2. 
   potomac | May 29, 2008 05:34am | #12

   Thanks for your reply, I will do the pivot for sure and a super secret catch mech. that I can't tell you about for obvious reasons. (Carpenter/Client confidentiality) I can tell you he is a lawyer but you probably guessed that. To Mike D, I will beef up the framing as best I can, but I would have to go back in time to do what you suggest, I am slow, just not that slow.
   Thanks
   John

   Edited 5/28/2008 10:36 pm ET by potomac