Scroll sawing — qualify as fine WWing?
OK, Bill and I exchanged comments about scroll sawing in another thread. Moving the discussion here and opening it up to avoid hijacking the other thread. My comment was prompted by David’s futile search to find a scroll saw review article in FWW:
David, I’d be surprised if FWW has done a scroll saw review in the past decade, or even ever. Scroll sawing has its place, and I enjoy it to some extent. I’ve seen projects that I can’t even imagine having the skill or sticktoitiveness to produce myself, but it’s not in the definition of “fine woodworking” for the vast majority of us. There’s virtually no joinery involved, the finishing is very basic and … well, guess I’m drawing a blank … but it just doesn’t make the grade for FWW. It’s a “different animal.”
Bill replied:
Jamie,
I have to disagree with you on this one — sorry about that.
While most of the scroll-sawn work we see is extremely detailed fretwork, there are elements of many fine furniture pieces that can be done on the scroll. Corner accents on the side table I’m building now is one example. Inlays and marquetry are other examples of using a scroll saw to create enhancements to larger pieces.
Regards,
forestgirl — you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can’t take the forest out of the girl 😉
Another proud member of the “I Rocked With ToolDoc Club” …. :>)
Replies
So, Bill, let's get rollin' on this. My thoughts about scroll sawing being/not being fine woodworking have in large part been prompted by an occasional wish that we had a place here at Knots to discuss scrolling. But then when I look at the projects the vast majority of scrollers make, and the focus of other dedicated scroll saw forums, those activities just fall short of "fine WWing" to me.
As you say, the scroll saw can be an important tool in certain shops, but is not that such a small, specialized use as to be outweighed by the predominant activity mentioned above, when deciding whether to include it in "fine woodworking"?
I would vote, though, for FWW to do a good review of the larger scroll saws and include a sidebar on the usefullness of the tool in a fine furniture shop or whatever.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Edited 1/20/2005 12:28 pm ET by forestgirl
FG,
Since you propose the exclusion of scroll sawing from the category of fine woodworking, (and its use for fretwork and inlay), shall we exclude carving as well, as being a "small specialised use" (your words) that most folks don't employ? How 'bout veneering? Is that too specialised?
I don't think that the size of the woodworking population using a particular tool or technique has a lot to do with whether it's use qualifies it as fine woodworking or not. But, that's just my opinion...I'm not giving up my scrollsaw!!
No, I'm more concerned whether someone who actually claims to like the taste of scotch whiskey can possibly have the good taste to do fine work. Burnt cardboard---YUM!
Cheers,
Ray
Hi Roy. I'm pretty much playing devil's advocate here. A couple of times, I've been on the verge of publicly campaigning for the inclusion of a scroll saw forum here at Knots, but upon thinking about it, figured the reason there wasn't one already is because scroll sawing by and large is used to produce crafts items.
Perhaps the discriminating characteristic is that of being "traditional." Efforts such as carving, veneering, etc., have been around for centuries, actually millenia, as part and parcel of woodworking.
For heaven's sake, I don't want you to give up your scroll saw!! I love my little Delta saw, use it several times a year, and certainly would utilize it to make accents for furniture if I ever get to the point where I can build furniture that would be worthy of the accents! Too funny. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Aw rats! Drat and piffle, even. I wasn't going to weigh in on this, even though I use my Hegner scrollsaw on many projects. But the idea that scrollsawing is a newer craft than carving and such isn't going to go down easily.
Fretsaws are the manual equivalent of scrollsaws and they've been around for centuries (perhaps milennia).
'Nuff said.
Best regards (No, really!)
Don
"... Fretsaws are the manual equivalent of scrollsaws and they've been around for centuries (perhaps milennia). ..."
Good point! Fretsaw=coping saw=scrollsaw? How many similar examples could we give?
If I use my 10", 3hp cabinet saw rather than a hand saw to rip lumber to width, will it no longer be 'fine furniture'.
If I use my power jointer rather than a hand plane to prepare boards for glue-up for a table top, is the piece no longer 'fine furniture'?
...and the list goes on...
Bill Arnold - Custom Woodcrafting Click Here if you're interested in a good,inexpensive website host.
Food for Thought: The Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals.
It could be. It's kind of like pornography - I know it when I see it.
Steam bent fretwork on period pieces (tea tables for instance) are most certainly fine woodworking.
Actually, FWW has discussed scrollsaws, maybe 5 articles in 28 years (!) There is at least one review, possibly two; check out Issue 47 (Jul/Aug 1984) and Issue 74 (Jan/Feb 1989). A new review would not be too repetitive.
And, what's more, FWW has published some articles on scroll-sawn work that very definitely is 'fine'. I recall one on 3D puzzles/jigsaws that impressed me at the time.
MalcolmNew Zealand | New Thinking
OK, Jamie. Here goes.
While there are many examples of truly 'fine furniture' that include scroll-sawn accents or major components, I've gotta beat my own drum a bit. Attached are photos of two of my projects that are in process at this time.
One is a side table that many of you will recognize as the one David Marks built in the first episode of Wood Works. It's built from Honduras mahogany with wenge accents in the corners. Without the accents, it would be just another table. Without a scroll saw, making the accents (2 7/8" by 2 7/8") would be a bit tough.
The other photos are of a quilt rack I designed and hope to complete soon. The legs are Honduras mahogany in a seven-layer bentwood lamination. I cut the center piece (6" by 4") from black walnut and the tiny leaf (3/4" across) from maple; both of these accents were done on the scroll saw. The central walnut piece serves as both a decorative and structural item.
The jury is out as to the classification of these items as 'fine furniture'. :-)
Bill Arnold - Custom Woodcrafting
Click Here if you're interested in a good,inexpensive website host.
Food for Thought: The Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals.
Nice, Bill! So, let's get down to brass tacks here -- should we campaign for a scroll saw article or two in FWW? or a scroll saw section here at Knots?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
"Nice, Bill! So, let's get down to brass tacks here -- should we campaign for a scroll saw article or two in FWW? or a scroll saw section here at Knots?"
OK, so you're still trying to sucker me deeper into this thing, huh?
I've just started using a scroll saw because I have a need to turn out accent parts for pieces I'm building. This is as far as I anticipate using a scroll saw -- accents for a larger item. I can't see myself sitting for hours on end doing detailed fretwork -- aaaarrrrgggghhhhhh!
Any review of scroll saws will simply initiate a debate between the 'haves' and 'have-nots'; i.e., those to whom money is no object, therefore they buy the most expensive 'everything' and those who have to justify their expenditures. One can buy a scroll saw for $100 or one can spend $2000 and more. How would FWW handle a review of such a range of saws? For the 'professional scroll-sawyer', inclusion of any saw under about $1200 would be ludicrous. On the other hand, the average 'real person' could care less about whether he's impressing his friends with a 'hotsy-totsy', super-expensive tool; he just wants something that gets the job done.
Reviewing scroll saws would bring the same results as a review of 17" bandsaws. I look for price/value; the next person simply wants a tool that will impress his cronies based on its cost (mine cost three times what George's cost so mine's better). Forget the argument that the more expensive tool will outlive three generations of your family! How about a reality check? Yours isn't any better than mine if mine does the job it's designed to do. How about all those Cadillacs out there with inoperative turn-signals? The signals on my 8 year-old F150 work perfectly!!!
An article demonstrating the use of accents to enhance an otherwise ordinary-looking piece of furniture and the creation of same using a scroll saw could be of benefit. I have a fairly good imagination but seeing an example of an enhancement such as the corner detail David Marks did on the table that I'm now building spurs my thought processes. Now I look for opportunities to include additional detail in items I'm designing because I've done it and know I can do more.
Warmest Regards,
Bill Arnold - Custom Woodcrafting Click Here if you're interested in a good,inexpensive website host.
Food for Thought: The Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals.
"This is as far as I anticipate using a scroll saw -- accents for a larger item. I can't see myself sitting for hours on end doing detailed fretwork "
Bingo!
Ya see, Bill, the most sophisticated uses of the scroll saw, "detailed fretwork" (or possibly intricate intarsia or inlay work) is a very narrowly focused activity that doesn't involve, IMHO, the breadth of skills demonstrated by what we generally refer to as "fine woodworking." Joinery and finishing are two areas that first come to mind in differentiating between the two. Obviously, there can be a great deal of art involved in designing the pattern for an elaborate fretwork or intarsia piece, and a great deal of precision and scroll sawing skill, not to mention endurance.
If those accents were made using hand-tools -- chisels, carving tools -- they'd be a target for the magazines, but simply because they're made by a machine that's mostly use for craft-work, they zip right under the editorial radar.
OK, I gotcha where I wantcha!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
"... OK, I gotcha where I wantcha!"
Oh, lucky me! :-')
Bill Arnold - Custom Woodcrafting Click Here if you're interested in a good,inexpensive website host.
Food for Thought: The Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals.
"... If those accents were made using hand-tools -- chisels, carving tools -- they'd be a target for the magazines, but simply because they're made by a machine that's mostly use for craft-work, they zip right under the editorial radar. ..."
Another good point, Jamie.
I admire the folks who enjoy using hand tools to build projects, but I'm an admitted power tool junkie. To those who insist the 'right' way to build a piece of 'fine furniture' is with hand tools, I suggest they consider history. Certainly, for millenia our forefathers did beautiful work with all they had -- hand tools. Those hand tools evolved into additional versions that enabled them to perform tasks more easily.
Shaker Sister Tabitha Babbitt is credited with inventing the circular saw system that replaced the pit saw and made the act of ripping logs easier.
How did the jigsaw come about? An employee working for a Bosch-owned Swiss Manufacturing company replaced the needle on his wife's sewing machine with a saw blade to enable him to make delicate and detailed cuts into wood. Sounds more like a scroll saw.
Ah, well.....onward.
Bill Arnold - Custom Woodcrafting Click Here if you're interested in a good,inexpensive website host.
Food for Thought: The Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals.
Well, Bill, this conversation appears to be developing "legs" eh? OK, from now on when I have scroll saw questions, I won't go scurrying off to another forum. I'll ask 'em here!
Sign me "another power tool junkie"forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
"... Sign me "another power tool junkie"
As I said, our ancestors developed and used 'power' tools every chance they got. Somehow, I don't feel the least bit bad about using modern power tools to aid in constructing any project on which I'm currently obsessed.
That said, I did resort to a razor knife to clean up some narrow corners on the walnut accents of my quilt rack yesterday. Of course, I guess I shoulda used my Dremel tool but it actually was kinda relaxing to sit back in a lawn chair and whittle away!
Stay sweet!
Bill Arnold - Custom Woodcrafting Click Here if you're interested in a good,inexpensive website host.
Food for Thought: The Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals.
Ooops, forgot to address the tool-review question. I guess since I've never used a big Delta, DeWalt, or the Hegner or Hawk, I'd enjoy reading a review of these four saws (oooops, forgot the Excaliber) just to get a feel for the differences between them and their strengths and weaknesses. They cover a price range that goes down around $475.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I do not do it very much but I have seen scroll saw work that is BEAUTIFUL.. Fine Working by ANY standards....
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