Replies

1. 
   rich4242 | May 25, 2019 02:03pm | #1

   Rob,

   The construction and robustness of the Sawstop machines are first rate. I don't think you will ever experience any problem with the casting and machining of the trunion assembly in the Professional model.

   However, may I suggest that you give some consideration of a "European" type of sliding table saw if you are about to get involved in prices in the category you're considering. The Sawstop model you're looking at is in the vicinity of $3000 minimum for a 240 volt model at 3 hp. You will actually have to spend a more to get a decently equipped piece of equipment.

   The Sawstop models are very well made machines, but their claim to fame is their unique safety feature which attempts to deal with a problem of basic atrocious ergonomics and just poor machine design that has remained unchanged in table saws used in this country for more than a hundred years.

   European saw design gets the operator's hands away from the blade. Very far away. The "Euro-style" saw is inherently safer and has far, far more precision built in than any other design. Safety is the overriding factor driving the design of such equipment.

   An entry level machine with 4hp, far more capacity than the Sawstop, standard features unheard of on "ordinary" table saws and incredible precision (the usual crosscut fence that one is forced to construct of wood to fit in the slots of a typical table saw is a crude stone-age contraption compared to the built-in, CNC precision-machined aluminum extrusion and stainless steel crosscut components of a euro saw) is in the vicinity of $3500-$4000.

   The fit and finish of even the lowest priced Euro-style equipment usually is astonishing to people who have never had experience with it.

   A euro saw requires a complete different mind set and philosophy of operation. The safety rules that permeate industry in Europe, England, Australia and New Zealand are incorporated in every design element of these machines. They derive from the work methods that have evolved over centuries of master craftsmanship in those countries.

   I have absolutely no connection with any tool manufacturer. I am just extremely happy with my equipment that I got in 2006 after a lifetime of using "standard American stuff." I will never look back.

   I'd be glad to have further discussion here about sliding table saws, or to give you some links that would help.

   Rich

1. 
   rob_ss | May 26, 2019 02:20am | #4

   Thank you for a very helpful response. I should like to have a look at other options. I was quite keen on the idea of dado capability, but have never really missed it. I just use a router...
   I am in New Zealand - budget is up to NZD 7000 or about USD 4500 but is quite flexible. Lower $$ means less chance of the boss noticing...
   The second hand market here is awful so it will have to be a new saw.
   I'm keen on a cabinet saw for the higher quality and dust collection.
   Whilst I do occasionally build MDF cabinets, I would be happy with a saw cabable of quarter sheet capacity because it's not hard to dimension with a skilsaw.

1. 
   rich4242 | May 26, 2019 11:06pm | #5

   The main differences between a Euro sliding table saw and a Sawstop/Powermatic type machine.

   1. The sliding table - obviously. The table is to the left of the blade meaning many operations that typically are done on the right side with the Sawstop are done on the left. The work is securely held on the precision slider which runs on sophisticated ball or roller bearings both for many ripping operations and cross cuts. An "outrigger" on the table allows effortless handling of sheet goods (plywood, MDF up to and beyond 4' x 8' sheets - or whatever the equivalent size id in New Zealand - and larger).

   For most operations, the operator's hands are several feet away from the blade at all times. Work that often creates high levels of anxiety and danger on an ordinary table saw is a breeze. No drama at all.

   2. The blade arbor is 30mm (1-1/4 inches). The Sawstop is 5/8". This is an enormous difference in strength. Stiffness of the arbor is a function of the square of the radius. That makes the 30mm arbor 16 times as strong as the 5/8".

   3. The riving knife/crown blade guard combination are a hallmark. The saw is *never* used without them except for some cuts which don't go all the way through the workpiece. They contribute enormously to the efforts to avoid kick back and are extremely effective. My experience with people who learn on Powermatic type designs is that they hate the (inadequate) "splitter" and blade guard and take the attitude that no one can force them to use it and they'll be damned but they're going to operate their equipment any way they want to and do! I shudder when I see table saws with bare blades spinning.

   People who learn on Euro style equipment learn proper safety methods and are amazed and perplexed when anyone tries to suggest that equipment be used in an unsafe way.

   3. Use of a dado blade is discouraged to the point that arbors are not made long enough to accommodate a dado set. This comes from industrial safety laws. And since most workers learn on machines that comply with these laws, they acquire a work ethic which includes the intent of the regulations. My saw, a Hammer K3 "Comfort" model has an arbor that is slightly longer than usual, which accommodates the Felder-Hammer "dado" cutter. It's nothing like an "American" dado set. It's actually a shaper head running on that 30mm arbor. I don't have one. They are about $1000 US. Like you, I use a router or other means for dado operations. But that shaper head is a thing of beauty.

   4. The rip fence appears "puny" compared to a Biesemeyer or similar fence. On the other hand, from the Euro equipment perspective, the Biesemeyer is a large, clumsy, very dangerous piece of equipment. Ripping philosophy is probably the biggest difference between Euro style work and an ordinary saw.

   The Euro saw uses a "short" fence for ripping work. This is often something someone trained on a Powermatic type machine can never accept. However, it's brilliant and directly addresses the most dangerous thing about a table saw - kickback.

   The fence is adjusted so that the work is guided/supported until it enters the down going teeth of the front of the saw blade, but no farther than the middle of the blade, and never so that the work can be trapped between it and the rising teeth of the rear of the blade.

   There is no need for the work to be held after it has passed the front of the blade. The cut has been made. Only bad things can happen should the rip fence extend much further. The wood can either remain stable, in which case, everything is ok, or the waste to the right of the blade can move toward the blade or toward the fence.

   If it moves toward the blade, closing the kerf, it can pinch the blade and be caught by the rising rear teeth. This is the primary cause of kickback. A microsecond later, it will be hurled by the teeth at the top of the blade toward the operator's position. The riving knife prevents the wood from contacting the blade, and in the case of severe pinching, the crown blade guard is the last stand preventing the wood from rising all the way to get gripped by the teeth at the top of the blade.

   If the waste curls to the right, it will push against the fence (if any fence is there - it's not on a Euro saw, but extends to the back of the table with a Biesemeyer), forcing the work to the left into the back of the blade. See above.

   The sliding table, which is to the left of the blade is a few thousdandths of an inch above the level of the cast iron fence to the right of the blade. This difference is not enough to cause any inaccuracy of the cut, but is enough to let the rip waste fall safely away the the right, away from the action.

   Lumber is never ripped with the fence extending beyond the mid-point of the blade. But MDF and plywood can be supported by the fence adjusted as a "long fence. But that's a whole different story.

   The rip fence quickly and easily becomes a completely safe stop block for repetitive cross cuts.

   5. The saw has an electronic motor brake. The blade comes to a complete stop a few seconds after the stop switch is hit. Boom. No long coasting, spinning blade.

   My Saw is a Hammer, which is the least expensive line manufactured by the Felder Group. Most Euro machines are combo machines. Mine has a shaper right in the same chassis. Two separate 4 hp motors. Use of the sliding table for both operations.

   All the machines are easily mobile. It's amazing to be able to roll around an 800 lb (360 Kilo) mass of cast iron, sheet metal and aluminum extrusion with *very* little effort.

   My machine has a scoring knife which scores the surface of veneered sheets before the main cut, resulting in absolutely clean cuts - no tearout.

   There's so much more, it's beyond a simple post here. I haven't even touched on "straight line ripping" which is amazing.

   If you decide to get one, make sure there is a Felder/Hammer distributor in New Zealand. They will demonstrate everything about the machine. And if you buy one, the machine will be adjusted at the factory before shipment to you and will be installed by the distributor who will also give you training. That's all part of the purchase price.

   This video shows a small machine being set up and used.

   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8c9-BGJLeM

   And here's an official Hammer video directed at the American market. There are many, many more videos if you search.

   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZoRaBn-n70

   Good luck!

   Rich

2. 
   matt101 | May 25, 2019 06:27pm | #2

   I’ve had mine for about 8 months now and have had no issues. For a hobbyist it’s a great saw. Don’t let something like this hold you back.

3. 
   user-6480500 | May 25, 2019 10:00pm | #3

   Rob you should look at the insides at both Sawstop saws. Their is a difference on how the saw blade is moved up or down. Its my personal opinion one of the two would make for more maintenance, to keep the controls from sticking up. Table saws produce a lot of dust. If you don't have the proper dust collection whatever dust remains finds its way into the fore mention mechanism. What ever saw you buy use eye, ear, dust protection, stay alert and focused.