I’m wondering if those that own the Sawstop somehow feel different when they operate their saw now versus prior to having a brake in their saw?
The other day when I was making cuts on my non-Sawstop saw, I was just thinking that even though I’m using a push stick, splitter and being careful, I started to think that maybe if I had a Sawstop, I’d feel less nervous when sawing. I’m not asking if one relies on the technology for safety, but do Sawstop owners that take all the other precautions now feel safer than before?
Replies
Jointerman,
Real good question.... Or are they more careful than ever with the Sawstop to avoid misfires and the $80 dollar charge.
I stopped speeding right after installing my fuzz buster.
"I stopped speeding right after installing my fuzz buster." You are a funny man, BG. LOL!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
So far silence from the Sawstop owners. Bumping my own post. I'm curious because I've been shopping for a new saw for about a year now and Sawstop is threatening a price increase.
I wonder what the wisdom of a price increase is in this economy? Also, isn't the dollar supposed to be getting stronger?
I can't answer your question as I don't have the saw. I would like it, however, seeing as I do not have medical insurance and a TS accident is the one thing that makes me the most nervous. I do use an aftermarket splitter whenever possible and push sticks, etc. My rule is to never place my hand within 12" of the blade.
I think the price increase has more to do with the rising cost of steel and shipping (especially from overseas).
Lee
Okay, I'll contribute..I used to have a Delta contractor...had NO previous woodworking experience other than some around the yard carpentry projects...watched a video to learn the basics..was careful with the blade...wasn't really sure what kickback was until I cut a small 2 inch thick piece of hard maple which demonstrated without a doubt what kickback was, taking a big chunk of flesh out of my forearm and a bigger chunk out of my confidence...so I bought a Sawstop nearly two years ago...I am still very cautious and if a cut doesn't feel right , I'll find an alternative way to do it (bandsaw, chopsaw, handsaw, etc.)...I've often said the brake hasn't changed how I feel about cutting on the tablesaw...then one day I had to rip some treated lumber for a deck project...there was no other satisfactory way to cut it so I turned off the brake because the wood was so wet (it had been rained on several times)...even though I was extremely careful, I felt terrified because the brake was not on...the cut went well and I turned the brake back on, realizing that I was dependent on the false sense of security the SawStop gave...frankly I still don't really trust that the technology will save me...I mean, I could be the first SawStop failure (that's NOT how I want to get my 15 minutes of fame)...I'm more comfortable with the riving knife preventing kickback although I"m careful there as well
rather do it by hand in Indiana,
Neil
even though I was extremely careful, I felt terrified because the brake was not on...the cut went well and I turned the brake back on, realizing that I was dependent on the false sense of security the SawStop gave
That's an interesting comment. Saying that something is giving you a 'false sense of security' indicates to me that you don't believe in the brake (as you assert later in your message). Why did you bother with the Sawstop?
For the same reason I wear a seatbelt...lessens the chance of injury..."terrified" was a bit of hyperbole...a better description would have been, "I was more nervous than I thought I would be"...even though the technology of the SawStop is impressive, it is still a man made device and last time I checked no man made device is foolproof..
In one of my favorite movies, Body Heat, Mickey Rourke is advising William Hurt.."any time you set out to commit a crime, you got fifty ways to get caught...If you think of twenty five, you're a genius...you ain't no genius..."...sometimes I feel that way with power tools, especially the tablesaw...there's probably MORE than fifty ways to get hurt..I just haven't learned them all..the sawstop will probably protect me from a few but I'd rather not make the mistakes
Neil,
The wording just struck me a bit odd. 'False sense' implied that the Sawstop didn't actually give you any protection, which would be at odds with the idea of paying twice as much for the saw over its competition.
I have to agree with your overall attitude to the Sawstop.
Stay Safe.
Buster
Buster, where do you get "twice as much"??? The base price on the SawStop is $2800 right now at Woodcraft. The price of the Powermatic PM2000, a reasonable competitor, is $2700 at Amazon. Yes, one must add the cost of the fence and extension table to the SawStop price, but surely that doesn't amount to another $2700 or more.
The PM66 might be a closer fit as far as specs go, how much did they go for new?? Adjusted for this year's inflation??forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
twice as much...
That would be in Canadian funds... There is only one distributor in my neck of the woods. Last I looked it was over $4000 including fence etc. Still not quite 2X... But it feels like it. I've been considering crossing the boarder and picking one up...
I worked it out not too long ago that for you guys the brake is worth around $700.
Last I looked it was over $4000 including fence etc.
It's the same here in the states as well. Seems Sawstop has ridgid shipping fees (even if you want to pick the machine up at Woodcraft) in addition to added fees for the 5hp motor and fence (for crying out loud, who buys a tablesaw without a fence?)
"oh, no thanks dude, I'm going to use the unifence off of my old delta contractors saw"
Give me a break
Lee
Perhaps I missed it in a previous post, but Sawstop is introducing a midrange saw to compete better with the unisaws and such. Im thinking total price to be around $2700. Smaller trunions less adjustability, etc.Chris
Hope it doesn't take as long to "introduce" as the contractor saw did!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I went over the new Saw-stop comparable to Uni-saw.. PM 2000.. etc. at IWF. It's a nice saw but not made as well as the standard SS. And from what I was told by SS the price is not set yet but will be in the $2900 range.
So... you can get a SS without a brake (but not the same SS) for a mere $2900 or you can get a better made saw for $4000 with a break. Personally the new saw I have is made as well if not better (larger trunnion casting and wider spaced with tolerances as tight) than the original SS but without a riving knife or hydraulic lift. I find neither attractive enough to pay an extra $2100 for. And I am sure I will take some heat on that statement but... go compare them side by side before you deliver any. Forget the brake and the hydraulic lift when making the comparison.
Nor do I find it attractive to get the $2900 saw with riving knife not made as well as my $1900 saw I just purchased. $1000 more for a riving knife and the name Saw-stop on the side with a saw not as well made as the one I have. That's just me I suppose as many will do just that I believe.
Sarge..
Let me get this right, SS is making a saw that is NOT break equipped? I do NOT understand the logic of that idea at all. If this is the case, then they would seam to be agreeing with the people that think that the SS (w/B) is to expensive for what you get. Or at least that it is to expensive for a lot of people and thus their sales are not what they want. Or they are they saying that profit (on a cheaper assumably more popular saw) is more important then safety? I guess I am lost here.
One thing I would be worried about if I was them (assuming they are building a SS wo/B) is a law suit if someone gets hurt. If I was a lawyer I would have a field day with them building an "unsafe saw" They do not even have the ability to argue (like the other saw makers) that a saw with out the break is safe if used properly. I mean if that is the case then why do they make one with the Break? So if this is the case this opens a whole new can of worms. This is the logic that forced auto companies to put Airbags on ALL their cars. Not just high end cars or options. Because it opened them up to safety law suits.
That being said I really am not trying to start the whole SS argument again, I am just trying to understand
A) If they are making a saw with out the break.
B) If the saw has a break why is it cheaper/ inline with the Unisaw,
C) if they are Building a saw with out the break how they are justifying this with their idea that they had to build as safe a saw as you could because safety is more important then money concept. and
D) If they are building one with out a break what happened to the idea they had that safety was so important that they wanted the government to require a break system on all new saws.
and Last but not least (to keep this on topic) what you users of the Current SS think about the idea that the company may be building a new saw with out said break.
Doug M
(Stopping to put on his fire proof undies)
Doug,
I think Sarge is in error. The lower price cabinet saw that sawstop announced still has a brake. Here is an article from Pop Woodworking:
http://blogs.popularwoodworking.com/editorsblog/SawStop+Unveils+A+Less+Expensive+Cabinet+Saw.aspx
Buster
I had heard they were coming out with a lesser saw but the way I heard the story was that it would be a contractors style saw, and it would have a break. Thus it is not really in the same area as the Unisaw and the SC cabinet saw. That would be the one they have out now. My understanding was the new saw was cheaper then the current one because it is a contractor type. I will look at the link provided once I have a chance latter today.
Doug
The contractor saw as announced ages ago. If you ask me, it's a little behind the times. A hybrid saw is all around a better choice... but that's just my opinion.
Sawstop will have two cabinet saws. The new proffesional, and the current industrial. The new proffesional cuts certain things out that I don't ever remember being discussed (air shock? blade adjustment). Apparently this is to bring it in line with other cabinet saws...
Anyway all three saws will have a brake.
Buster
Now I understand the reason for the price increase. It's designed to create a market for the "standard" cabinet saw.
Thank you Buster as I was in error indeed. I looked over the saw and simply didn't notice as I had been told by someone at the Show it didn't have a brake. I really wasn't looking to see if it had a brake or not as I was very interested in the build quality.
Regards...
Sarge..
Hey no problem. Honest mistake, you weren't really there shopping for a Sawstop...I think build quality is an important point that is often overlooked in the Sawstop discussions. It's interesting that you're not impressed with the quality of the new saw. The old model seemed to get pretty high reviews. It would be unfortunate if Sawstop was lowering quality just to get a few sales.Thanks for all the Steel city reviews. I enjoy them.Buster.
So goes the game of marketing in a free enterprise system. My Dad drove Plymouths for years until he could afford to move up to Dodge, then on to Chrysler. General Motors and Ford/Mercury/Lincoln did the same thing. All were made under the same manufacturing umbrella, but they each had their own "lines" of cars tailored to varying budgets. Toyota/Lexus has followed suit.
In doing some reading and talking to SawStop owners, it is a top of the line table saw in every respect. But, not everyone likes any particular manufacturer. Sarge is obviously sold on Steel City while others have extolled the virtues of (or panned) other brands. All the while we have also had woodworking purists who churn out magnificent specimens of fine woodworking by candlelight in their period shoppes.
The tools that we own were either given to us or we determined that they were worth their asking price at the time. Then we take the time to either brag about the good deal we got or complain about being ripped off. Isn't this forum great?
Edited 9/18/2008 11:14 pm ET by heartwould
The old model (original) should get good reveiws, Buster. It is an excellent saw and and much better made than the new.. cheaper version. But... if you take away the brake which I understant (?) cost around $700 from what I have read on this forum and others... I just don't think the saw (as well made as it is) is worth $3300 alone if I could get one without a brake. I would not personally pay that much for any table saw with the exception of a slider with a scoring knife..
That's just me.. there are many... many that will and that is fine as it's there money and if they feel comfortable doing so.. so be it!
Regards...
Sarge..
I've been watching SawStop for a few years and am looking forward to being able to buy one soon. They seem to have built the saws to very high standards. They are slightly more expensive than anyone elses saws but that is to be expected from a company that is just starting out. In Canada I can find their cabinet saw for $3200 with the 52" extension for about another $400. The contractors saw is $1450. Any saw that is comparable, minus the brake feature, would save me a few hundred dollars. I just heard of some one else this past week that lost a fingertip to their table saw after 30 some years experience. For me, the saftey feature of not having my fingertips shortened are worth much more than what the table saw is going to cost me.
"I've been watching SawStop for a few years and am looking forward to being able to buy one soon. They seem to have built the saws to very high standards"... VW
***
The original Saw-stop is built to very high standards in Taiwan to accomodate the brake so... I totally agree. BTW... I got to go to dinner at the International WW Show with the Chinese gentleman that owns the plant in Taiwan that builds their saws and the ones for Sunhill.. Oliver.. etc. Very sharp character.
***
"I just heard of some one else this past week that lost a fingertip to their table saw after 30 some years experience".. VW
***
So did I on another forum. If it's the same one I believe he was doing dadoes on his TS. He was making more than 3/4" deep cuts on each pass with a 3/4" wide dado blade that has two skimpy cutter heads on the outside with few teeth. And gang cutters centered between that bascally punch the wood out instead of cut it....When it kicked his hand was pulled into the blade. Over 30 years experience. Amazing what "experience will do for you? ... Brilliant...!
***
"For me, the saftey feature of not having my fingertips shortened are worth much more than what the table saw is going to cost me".. VW..
***
And for me I am going to carefully examine how most get fingers and hands severed.. cut.. bruised.. etc. and determine if there was a better way in lieu of purchasing a high dollar brake that won't do one thing to stop a kick-back that can puncture a body part without the brake coming into play. That's a fact.
And with 37 years experience it didn't take me that long to figure out about 99% of accidents can be avoided by using much cheaper safety devices (most home built from scrap) that cover much more than just cutting your hand.. and well disciplined safety practices I learned well over 30 years ago with a TS.
I don't use a dado cutter on a TS as I don't care for gang cutters removing (actually knocking) stock in lieu of a sharp toothed blade. I do all my cross-cutting and miters on a SCMS set up with 8' extentions on each side and clampking for the stock being cross-cut. I simply use the TS with the exception of cutting box joints (well clamped on the face of my jig and my hands never get closer than 8" to the blade) for what it was originally intended... ripping!
And when I rip I use a half fence on the right.. a crown gaurd over-head covered with a plastic shield.. a well anchored spring-board to the left.. push sticks once the tail of the stock reaches my "red line" which is 8" away from the front of blade meaning my hands are much farther back. And... I keep the lane clear when the blade is spinning to avoid being hit with possible forward launch toward the operator side of the blade.
So.. as mentioned in this very thread, there are those that will not get there hands cut because they have a brake but... still risk every element of kick-back that can puncture other body parts.. damage eyes and don't forget breathing dust which will catch up with you latter... A brake has absolutely nothing to do with those elements. Someone mentioned using the brake on his SS but doesn't use the over-head shield. Again... brilliant!
So... as I mentioned before I prefer a well built saw and skip the expensive brake for "my needs". Perhaps my 30 years experience is different from others 30 years experience. Perhaps the term experience itself may be used loosely as there is a difference between doing something for 30 years... and learning something each day from what you do that helps put the word accident in the back seat instead of the front seat behind the wheel...
Sarge..
Edited 9/19/2008 9:40 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
Edited 9/19/2008 9:42 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
Sarge, maybe you already know this, but I'll point it out just in case: You take safety far more seriously than 99.9% of the average veteran saw operators. I suspect you'd have to look far and wide, perhaps on another inhabited planet, to find someone who's taken the time to make and use the various safety gizmos you use on your saw(s). That, combined with your thorough understanding of how accidents happen, makes you just about as safe as can be.
You are unique! forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I second that FG. Sarge has made me think about safety a lot more!
Thank you Ms. Jamie... my family didn't have much when I was growing up and my father died when I was 12... but they were able to give me 10 fingers.. 10 toes.. etc., etc.. and I fully intend to keep them if at all possible. BTW.. the methods I use were around long before I was and I first learned them in HS Shop in 1962 or 1963?
The devices I use are nothing that anyone here can't make if they spend a few hours.. a few $$ and have some scrap laying around. But.. that would be a waste of time if you don't use them. They are easy to make.. easy to use and do there part in countering the beast in the machine. You still have to do your part.
Regards...
Sarge..
PS.. I just used Spell-check to check my spelling as I am always in a hurry. This time it didn't correct me on even one count.. therefore maybe the Spell-Check person will recommend me for a Rhodes Scholar-ship for spelling as I done good I think. :>)
The rising cost of tools is not a ploy to make more profit in this case. The cost of cast iron has risen sharply in the last year. I cannot remember the exact figure quoted but around 60% I believe. Scott Box (president of Steel City Toolworks) told me his cost of getting a Conex container from China was around $3200. Since the fuel deal that has risen to $4800.
The Chinese government are raising labor rates as their folks are getting more skilled. At least they claim that as I personally doubt the average Chinese worker will see any of it but that is beside the point. They have raised labor rates enough that a large manufacturer and distributor I spoke to at IWF has sunk $19,000,000 into building a plant there that would have employed many Chinese. The government there would not back down and the company told the Chinese they could have the plant and the 19 million investment. They just closed the operation down.. wrote it off.. and started a new facility in the U.S.A.
So... that is what I know as I was fortunate enough to get to go to dinner with 2 Chinese and 1 Taiwanese plant owner courtesy of Scott Box of Steel City. The companies have no choice but to raise prices just to maintain the profit margin they had in the past.
Back to the shop...
Sarge..
I have no fear of my tablesaw. I find it interesting to read in forums of people that use their tablesaw in fear. I sometimes wonder if I should have fear. I have respect for the saw. I have never seen a saw accident in the 45 plus years I've worked in shops with table saws. Each time I start to make a cut I ask myself if I'm afraid and the answer is always no. I know each cut and what can go wrong and am prepared in the way I have the saw setup and how I handle the cut. I remember having a kickback about 30 years ago but not since. I'm not sure about the idea of a tablesaw only being meant for ripping. The modern tablesaw evolved from the Unisaw which as I understand was short for universal saw - it could rip, crosscut, bevel, miter and combinations of those cuts. It does them all well. I also don't understand the reluctance of cutting with dado blades. Again, the saw does this very well. There's no doubt the situation of an inexperienced person and a tablesaw is likely to lead to an accident. I don't understand why there isn't readily available training in saw operations and safety. I was well trained as a teenager. I use the key piece of saw safety equipment, a splitter, and have used one since those teenage training days - the boss insisted on it. Don't understand the excitement about riving knives. they're just a splitter that moves so you need fewer splitters. Fewer splitters - yes you need more than one. You need whatever splitter suits the cut. If you're cutting 3/4 plywood all day make yourself a splitter an inch high with a crown guard on it. And make what ever splitter and guard you need for the cuts that you're doing. No splitter or riving knife is universal. I use a guard when suitable but some cuts are safer without a guard as the guard can get in the way of push sticks and featherboards. Sawstop technology is a cleaver and worthwhile invention but there is a lot more satisfaction in becoming a skilled tablesaw operator. You still need to know how to make the various cuts on the saw successfully without damaging the workpiece, the saw, yourself, of the window behind you.
PS - I recently heard of an elementary school that teaches "creative spelling". My great argument when I was in elementary school was if you can tell me I spelled it wrong you know what the word is so what difference does the spelling make - I have communicated!
Spell check says I spelled tablesaw wrong?
I definitely agree with the crown guard, E D. The main difference between a splitter (one being used that is) and the riving knives is the riving knife rides closer to the blade at all blade heights and narrows the gap between where the rear of blade ends and the riving knife or splitter begins.
I believe the Uni was adapted in 1937 at the saw's concept as Uni means One. All components under one roof so to speak. And the saws that came before the Uni-saw in 1937 were originally designed to rip. And yes the TS can cross-cut... I just find that a SCMS with pull out retractable extensions takes up far less room than proper support that is required on a table saw to cross-cut 10'-14' stock. And no way am "I" cross-cutting those lengths without proper support.
Same scenario with miters on long stock. I do use the TS to bevel but I still use the spring-board left.. crown guard and the over-head shield. If I can't use a guard (which I modify to not get in my way) I simply find another solution with the exception of box joints. As far as using a push stick and the guard getting in the way... simply take a piece of scrap to the BS and cut one that avoids any guard. Any time my hand gets within 8" of the blade.. a push stick is going to be used at my shop.
There are numerous classes local here in Atlanta that offer TS safety but.. not many takers. Why....? Probably the same reason we buy a toy for a child at Xmas that has to be assembled. At the end we end up with two parts left over as we thought it was so simple we didn't need to bother with instructions. ha.. ha...
Regards...
Sarge..
Edited 9/19/2008 5:42 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Edited 9/19/2008 5:42 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
I really can't argue with the price increase with your comments. I actually think they are valid. Price increases just shouldn't come at a time when my 401k and other savings have tanked so badly. ;-). The money disappears, but the desire to have a new tool stays on. I go back and forth daily on whether I want to spring for the Sawstop or not. The original thread came about when I was ripping wood and wondering how much different I would feel with a brake on the saw. And could I put a price on that "feeling".If I don't want the feature, I'll go for the Powermatic 2000, that's my second choice. Of course, the Felder rep left a message on my phone about their continued IWF specials earlier this week.Maybe if I became insolvent, I could get the government to foot the bill for the saw?
Interesting. It shows that there are 70 messages posted on this topic, but it seems to stop at 69. I'm sending this one to see if the mysterious number 70 shows up. Is it just me?
Making yourself a series of splitters with crown guards an be usefull. Looking at the cuts you do regularly make one suitable for thin cuts - 1/2", make one for 3/4" plywood - 1", and make a couple more up to your saw's capacity. Or whatever heights suit your cuts. They are dedicated to a specific blade height and when in use you will need to have the blade height locked and not raise it. Hang a big tag on the height lock or what ever you need if you tend to forget. When you make them, shape them to hug the back of the blade just like a riving knife. You can design it so the top of the blade is in the crown guard - for example for cutting 3/4 plywood the blade could be raised 1 1/8" above the table with the crown guard 1" above the table. At this blade height shape the splitter to fit about 1/4" away from the blade.
Another idea I have used many times - if your guard and featherboard are interacting try taking off the guard and building another guard that mounts on the featherboard. Your featherboard should be mounted solidly and is a fine place to mount a guard for some cuts. Of course this won't work with one of those toy featherboards that sort of tightens in the miter slot.
There are many crosscuts suitable for a tablesaw that are not 12 foot long pieces of wood - of course it's not appropriate do do these cuts on a tablesaw. That's a little far off restricting a tablesaw to ripping.
"There are many crosscuts suitable for a table-saw that are not 12 foot long pieces of wood - of course it's not appropriate do do these cuts on a tablesaw"....
Yep there are..
"That's a little far off restricting a table-saw to ripping"....
Why? ... I was speaking about what "I" do on a TS and not suggesting anyone else has to follow suit. Everyone is free to use his TS as he or she wishes. If they want to cut dadoes they are free to do so. Whatever they chose to do is O-key Doo-key with me.
I have a SCMS with pull out extensions that can handle 16' cross-cuts with support that closes to 4'. I have 2000 linear feet of pecan coming into my shop on Monday or Tuesday that the owner wants sized down to 6' -8 foot sizes and then surfaced. Should I abandon my SCMS cross-cutter and build 4' extensions on each side of my TS to get the 10' -16' stock taken down where he wishes?
Probably not as I am well covered to rip and cross-cut in what "I" feel is the safest way. I will continue to use the SCMS for all cross-cuts (including short cuts) as it is a far more suited to my needs and space which is a lot of long stock.
Regards...
Sarge..
Sometimes folks (moi, for instance) will post something and, reading on, decides that the post has been either answered or is redundant or ..whatever. And then deletes it.Cheers,Peter
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
Thanks. I never paid attention to the options before, I didn't even know that posts could be deleted.
I have a box on my screen between 69 and 71 that says, way over on the right side of the screen, message 70 was deleted.
Thanks... I didn't even notice that little box with the deleted message.
"easy to use and do there part in encountering the beast in the machine."
"This time it didn't correct me on even one count"
Ah Ha, It didn't correct you but it would have if it could have read the context, . The sixth word in the first quote should have been spelled "their", not "there." And I notice FG also made a typo. I hope you take this lightly as intended. Almost all of us make those mistakes. I also always use the spell check. When it catches the mistake, we think nothing of it but when someone points it out we tend to take offense. I have worked on documents where I have gone over it time and time again only to find more goofs after it went to print. Face it. Most of us humans are somewhat less than perfect. Lest we worry to much about it, let me say that I have learned a heap from both you and FG and others on this forum about safety and efficiency. Keep up the work.
Edited 10/3/2008 3:31 pm ET by Tinkerer3
You are correct that it will catch the spelling but... only a proof-read will catch a word like there-their. But us old farts often get in a hurry and sometimes skip Spell-Check and don't bother to proof-read. A good example is I need to be down in the shop right now taking components of a coffee table out of gluing clamps.
In other words.. forget Spell-Check... forget proof-read.. just post it as you know someone with over a 25 IQ will figure out what you meant.. grab my coffee and get moving south-bound down the stairs. :>)
Nah... not offended! I take pride in being an illiterate with respect to proper Queen's English... "gotta" maintain my "red-neck" status somehow by gosh. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Regards...
Sarge..
Funny thing about the "Queen's English," a few weeks ago, a friend of ours said, "From what store did you get your coat?" I commented to her that her English show's she is clearly not from America. She was shocked and thought she had misspoken. I told her that she did not, but that most Americans would have incorrectly said, "What store did that coat come from?" It's not that we don't no how to talk good, we just don't want to sound snooty! ;-)
And to appear intelligent which at my age has about as much priority as going to a rap concert. :>)
Back to the shop where there is nobody monitoring my speech... and probably a good thing as some of the words I use there are not listed in the dictionary most likely.
Sarge..
Sarge,If you ever find yourself in a a situation needing to talk to us young hip people:http://www.urbandictionary.com/
Or I could just take a short trip up the stairs from the solace of my shop when my son visits with friends if I find the need. But... fortunately I have not found the "need" and frankly... I hope the "need" continues to evade me for the remaining days of my life.
In the meantime I'm going to have my wife drop by Firehouse Subs and pick me up a sandwich "fully involved" (put everything on it) to take to the shop where I can "chill" (not get my shorts in a wad) with a cup of Starbucks's mocha. I might even go against nature as some of the young.. over-paid sports hero's do and put a base-ball cap on with the front facing to the rear so I can look like an idiot without a clue just like them.
And of course.. instead of answer the next phone call... Thompson residence... a simple "what's up" gets the nod after I have electronically identified the caller before I answered the phone. And if the reply to "what's up" is simply a cell phone call to let me know they are pulling in my drive-way.. I will give them a hearty welcome right after I rip their cell phone into about 6 zillion tiny pieces. ha.. ha... ha.. ha.. ha..
So... thanks, but no thanks.... :>)
Sarge..
Edited 10/4/2008 9:44 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
One technique for proofreading is to read the document from the end backwards. Because your deathless prose no longer makes instant sense to you the mistakes tend to jump out. Unfortunately some of my stuff didn't make much sense the right way around. Nowadays I just let her rip. My spelling's going to be wrong for Americans and Brits anyway ;^<
Jim
"One technique for proofreading is to read the document from the end backwards."
I've never thought of that, I bet it would help. When I have an important document, I generally let my wife look at it. She is super good at that sort of thing but just anybody is better that trying to find them yourself.
"And I notice FG also made a typo." Happening with increased frequency as I age, LOL! I'm not sure whether it's because I'm old or because the more time goes by, the more words have passed through the fingertips and the more they go on automatic pilot.
I typed for a living through college and beyond, I'm sure more than a couple million words, so things like their/there, here/hear, boss/boxx (bugaboo since I bought the SawBoss by Porter-Cable), the list goes on and on and on -- anywho, those happen every day now, in addition to normal typos.
Let me know if any typo is (a) profane or (b) rendering the sentence unintelligible. ;-)forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
One reason I picked on you is that your posts are usually pretty clear, accurate and to the point. Once I was showed the spell check I have used it and have been surprised how many mistakes it finds. Of course, as mentioned, it doesn't find the there/their mistakes. One problem with spell check is that it doesn't have a very large vocabulary
Edited 10/5/2008 8:36 pm ET by Tinkerer3
Glad to hear most of my posts make sense, LOL! I've probably used spell check 3 or 4 times in howevermany years I've been on Knots. Mother Nature blessed me with an interest in and aptitude for spelling. She shorted me on 3D visulation, not sure it was a fair deal. ;-)forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Thanks Sarge,
Yourr pointed barb about not using the shield made me go home and put it back on...don't like the fact that I can't see the blade cutting but it does feel alot safer.
ten fingered Neil
You're welcome and you are better protected now. I don't like the idea of not being able to see the cut either so... take the shield off (for a few moments... ha.. ha...) and take it to your band-saw. A 1/4" 6 tpi will cut plastic fine if you feed slowly.
Cut a slot in the "top front" of the shield aligned with the blade. Now you can see the blade and still have a shield. Life is simple at the Sarge shop where very few things have not been modified to meet my own criteria. :>)
Have a good day Neil...
Sarge..
Sarge, I just wanted to point out that it may be the case that modification of any part of a machine may limit your ability to file lawsuits if needed. Chris
I don't file law-suits for any injury that I might generate through my own actions Chris... I simply accept responsibility. Perhaps my line of thinking is just too simple for today's complicated world? ..:>)
Cutting a slot in top of the guard so you can see the blade doesn't do anything to the guard that will take away the advantage of having it on. You cut it in the very front so you have a diagonal sight line from your stance to the blade. It only needs to be an inch or so long in either a 3/8" slot or V shape to do that.
The slot is in front of the front teeth of the blade and doesn't have to extend much farther as your your sight line is diagonal. It would be difficult to put a finger.. much less a hand through a 3/8" slot. So... I personally find the slot or anything I do in modification irrelevant to me as I am simply re-engineering something to be a better design than the manufacturer provided me with. I don't make modifications that would take away any margin of safety and more likely... I add margins of safety with most I make.
Sarge..
Edited 9/27/2008 9:51 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
Edited 9/27/2008 9:59 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
Sarge,Since all the Sawstop saws have brakes, the talk of the build quality and comparison of the SC vs Sawstop are somewhat moot now. I think both saws are pretty well built. However, I believe that the decision to buy a Sawstop really rests with whether this is a premium feature that you want or don't want, much like a Navigation system in a car.
You are probably correct, JM. I just prefer getting a well made saw and taking care of the business of accidents in my own personal way as I have just poted to VWright. Read that and you see where I stand on the issue. Just my take as I originally stated.
There are many that need a brake but would probably be better served with a Power Feeder as it takes both hand severance and other serious injury (eye.. penetration of vital organs.. etc..) from kick-back (which has nothing to do with a brake) out of the picture. And it's cheaper to boot.
I just call em as I see em and this is just my opinion as we all have one.
Sarge..
Edited 9/19/2008 9:31 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
A comment and a question here.
First off I would not be (and am not) against the dado bit as much as Sarge is. I think that a good dado cutter set, works well, and I don't agree with the characterization of the way they work as punching. You do not need 500 teeth on a blade to cut wood. You only need more teeth to cut wood smoothly. So in the case of a good dado set, the outer blades have the teeth to make a clean cut and the middle blades (for lack of a better word) have less. On a good set they have about four or so. This is kind of like the idea of using less teeth on a bandsaw when resawing. The extra teeth are not needed, increase the cost, and produce extra heat etc. You do on the other hand have to be careful. But that holds true of any way you make a dado. Be it Saw, Router, or buy hand with a plane.
Ok now that aside, I have to ask what in the world are they doing to the saw that allows them to drop the cost that much if they are not dropping the break? And please note I worded my questions/comments before in such a way that the post worked for if they dropped the break or not. But somehow the question of how they are cutting the cost and such got lost. So, anyone in the know, know how they are cutting the cost on the new saw? And what hydraulics are you all talking about? I have only seen the SS a few times and my local stores will not let you look inside it so I have never seen in person the guts of one of these things so clue me in please. I am not trying to start something here I really do want to know why the current one cost what it does and why the new one will be a lot less.
And I still say that the idea behind SS is sound. And if you have the money buy all means go ahead and buy it. (Remember that you may also have to pay for replacement cartridges and new blades also, not just the saw, if something happens to fire the thing) And if money was not an object I would buy one myself. But for those of us that do find money in short supply, I still say that the safest thing you can do is to buy as good of a saw as you can afford and learn to use it safely. And some things you can add to make it safer (see Sarges post on this) Is this as safe as a SS? Most likely not. But it is a lot saver then using a POS saw until some mythical future date when you will be able to afford the SS. For most people that day will never happen or will be a long long way off. As it always seams that about the time you get the money saved up something else needs it (like the car, or the roof).
Just my 2 er 10 er 25cents worth.
Doug M
Doug, instead of firing all those questions at us, perhpas you could go back to the Popular Woodworking article (online) that was linked above and read it. It answers the questions about what they changed to reduce the price. I've even provide the link again, give it a click.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 9/19/2008 11:42 am by forestgirl
To address your second point first (and simplest to respond to), because when I click on the links I get a big blank screen?
As for your first point, being as we are having this conversation. As has been stated else where I have an issue with spelling. This is a fact and CAN NOT BE CHANGED. (please do NOT try to tell me that if I only try harder I too will learn how to spell like a normal person, or that if I use this amazing system I will be "all better", I have heard this since I was in 2nd grade.) Now of days it would be called a learning disability, back in my day it was just something for the teacher of the day to go off about. It is kind of like dyslexia, and according to some related to it. It is not dyslexia as I have been reading on the highest level the test went to since I was in Middle school (that would be advanced College level, or something like 4th year college in 7th grade). I try my best and sometimes I get the words right and sometime I don't (sometimes it is the same word I got right an hour ago) I even change my wording to work around words at times, and I run spell check but their is a limit to how much use a spell checker is. And yes I know the idea that I can read very well but can not spell is something that your average person can not understand (and more then a few Teachers/Professors and more then one Doctor) but it is the way it is. Kind of like trying to explain why I can see a color (like Red) but when you have one red tree In a forest of green it does not jump out at me. (a form of color blindness) These are both things that I have never been able to explain to people that do not have the problem themselves.
If they way I spell causes you issues, I am sorry, but you seam to be a smart person and it appears that you figured out what I was saying (vs what I was spelling). Being as their is nothing I can do about it any more then I can change how tall I am, it is a post that does little to no good. And if you think it causes you problems reading it you should try it from my side! :)
I do find it interesting that in this day of Political Correctness, and acceptance of most things, including disabilities and illness, that this still comes up about every 3 months or so.
Maybe I should put something in a tag line about it like. "I have an issue with spelling, get over it." :)
Doug,
First of all, sorry to hear of your problems. It does sound like you have gotten by even with them for quite some time. It also sounds like you are educated, and not some bumpkin. Kudos for having the nads to explain your situation. Maybe that will put it to rest.
I'm sure FG meant no harm - I'm a bit of a spelling fanatic myself since my grandmother was an english/spelling/grammar teacher. I learned long ago to let mis-spelled words lie - I am such a horrible typist with big sausage fingers to boot that most of my posts have to be read and re-read to check the spelling before I hit the post button. I'm no fan of spellcheck unless it's one of those words you need the dictionary for.
Cheers,
Lee
I made that spelling post as light-hearted as possible. Wow, he takes things seriously. Don't think I'll devote much time to the voluminous response.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Forestgirl.
First off I am of mixed feeling about your post. I understand that you "Did not mean anything buy it" as they say, however I am not sure what the point of the post was. The problem with the internet and writing in general (old fashioned letters also) is that it is hard to put inflection into them. So while you may have meant the post as a sort of ribbing of the other guy type of thing all in good nature just to have fun with someone, it is hard to tell this on the net and your post did not make this clear (and still does not). On the other hand you may have been meaning this as something else either a "lesson" or even a slam (the last being very doubtful coming from you, from what I have seen of the way you post, you seam too polite for that.)
That said, as you may have figured (if you read the post, something you may not have done based on your comments, hard to say) it is a touchy subject, and it is something that others have commented on (mostly in a rude manor) before both here and else where. That is the reason for the long post (that you seam to find objectionable).
The point is that you (and anyone on here) would not post a comment to someone with a physical disability pointing out that they can not walk well, but people seam to have no issue with pointing out that one can not spell well. And while you had no knowledge of my issues, I assume, (although I have brought this up before in response to a post about my spelling) it is much like assuming a person is drunk and that is why he does not walk straight when in fact he has a disability. Something that generally now of days would be frowned upon. The assumption in general (not saying this was your point as I do not know) seams to be that I don't spell well because I am either dumb, or lazy or both. (why else would I not learn to spell the words correctly) Once again not saying this was why you posted, but for some that would have been the point.
My post was and is not an attack on you or anyone on this forum, anymore then a mother explaining to a child that the man with the missing leg (lost in a military accident) is attacking the child. It was and is simply an attempt to inform you and others of my issue and that some people have this problem. So that in the future you can use that information to determine your view on the matter. If I was not A) comfortable in talking with you (and other on this forum) and B) Concerned with the impression that my questionable spelling leaves in those that read it on this forum, some of whom I actually care about (and others not so much :) ) I would not have posted, or I would have posted only as short retort.
I hope you take the time to read this and to consider what I have said and how things are from my point of view as I have always considered your post to be some of the most thoughtful and considerate. It is just that after 30 plus years of getting this tossed in my face, and having to fight it (note I said fight it, not people) every day it gets old.
It is hard when you have to double and triple check everything you type and even then it does not come out right all the time. This makes everything harder, from sending emails, to posting of forums to doing my job. Yet unlike some who have problems, I get no compensation nor any protection under that law, and a lot of people that would never consider doing anything to someone with a disability do not hesitate to comment on my spelling. So if I am a little touchy I apologize, but I think I have the right to be a little sensitive about this. I have always considered your posting to be thoughtful and considerate, you just happened to step into a land mine. I hope you do not take this the wrong way, and I hope that you continue to post as you always have in response to my posting.
Yours
Doug M
I am going to make this short and sweet -- I apologize.
You could borrow Mike's (I think it's a "Mike" tag), also short and sweet: "Pardon my spelling"
As someone who has serious shortcomings in the area of 3D visualization, I can totally identify with struggling with something many others find fairly easy.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I made that spelling post as light-hearted as possible. Wow, he takes things seriously. Don't think I'll devote much time to the voluminous response.
I have similar issues as Doug, and it just gets really tiring to hear it all the time. As lighthearted as one can joke about these things; your still making fun of him. You've got to remember that he's probably hears it everyday. I know I do.
I beg to differ that I was "making fun" rather simply giving an example of the two forms of the same-sounding word. Bowing out, will read his last post when I finish lunch, make my apologies and go on to something else.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Doug, as a teacher who just retired after 37 years in the classroom I can tell you that you're not alone. Your spelling "condition" is very common. It's much more common than most "experts" will admit to because they are more interested in solving problems than they are to realizing that some problems can't be "fixed." Those experts seem to want to relate such problems with intelligence. There is no connection. I, in fact, have the same problem. By using the techniques you mentioned I was able to get through school with a Master's Degree and taught both elementary school and at the university level. Like you said "spell check" helps but doesn't solve all the problems. I've found that I also have to consult my computer's dictionary on occasion, especially with words like break and brake. That's just a suggestion that might help some.
Doug,What are they doing to drop the price, here's my guess:1) the blade height and tilt were gas assisted, they are eliminating that. I mean... seriously, I never thought, "wow, raising the blade is really hard, I wish someone would gas charge this thing!"2) Less metal in the trunnions... 3) Table size? Is it going to be smaller like the current Unisaw?4) Lastly... They are raising the price of the original Sawstop! They claim it's because of the rising cost of materials, I'm sure that may be true, but another $300!!! Yikes. -Raising the price of the original to 1) better differentiate the saws and 2) help pay the lower cost saw?
<<They claim it's because of the rising cost of materials, I'm sure that may be true, but another $300!!! Yikes.>>That represents a bit less than 10% if I am not mistaken. Given that the booming Chinese economy has upped the price of most metals to unheard of levels and the cost of fuel has added a LOT to the cost of shipping containers, I am not at all surprised. http://www.purchasing.com/article/CA6498318.html
http://uk.reuters.com/article/governmentFilingsNews/idUKSIN709020070222Cheers,Peter
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
Well ok I see what they are doing, and I would take it to mean that the top of the line idea, may not be working as well as they hoped so they are trying to target a lesser price point. But they are keeping the old saw, because A they have already invested in the cost to make it, and B it gives then a high end model for those that truly want the best at any cost.
I guess this is logical. But I just cant help but wonder if the idea of having two high priced saws is not a bit much. I mean even the new saw is not cheep buy any means. So instead of having one saw prices beyond most peoples budget they now have one saw beyond and one say right at the edge or beyond most peoples budget. Not sure this is a bright Idea but it is not my company. Then again Fess sells tools for a lot more then most people will pay and it seams to work for them. I wish them the best. (That way they can design a cheeper version of the tool that the rest of us may be able to aford)
Doug M
I really do think the Sawstop brake is a great invention... But even I have trouble justifying the cost. For $3000 I can by a Canadian made General, with a riving knife. The Sawstop is $4000 for a similar equipped saw (so the brake is $1000 difference). But I suspect that the General will be much better quality.
Anyway, time will tell. I'd like to move up to a 3HP saw and have been waiting for riving knives. Some time next year I'll put my hybrid saw up for sale, and I'll go from there.
"It would be unfortunate if Sawstop was lowering quality just to get a few sales." The biggest complaint when the original SawStop came out was the rather high price point. Lots of grumbling about "Why don't they make one we can afford?" The contractor saw missed the mark because by the time it hit the market, hybrid saws were all the rage for those in that particuclar price range. So, now they've come out with something that is in-between the "big" cabinet saw and the contractor saw. Nothin' wrong with that. If someone wants the ultimate quality, they can still get it, by paying for it.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
As Buster pointed out Doug... my error on not having the break as it oviously does according to Popular WW mag. I saw the saw at IWF and got my hands inside from sitting on the floor through the inspection cover to measure thickness of trunnions and how they mounted. I looked at the fence carefully.. locked it and slid it around a few times. The saw did not have the hydraulics as the original saw as that was obvious.
Simply my error as I had heard it did not have a break as the original and frankly I was more interested in the build that I didn't really notice if it did or not. Knowing that it does have the brake... I would say the price is more in line with the original as the saw is not nearly built as well as the original... which is a great saw even if it didn't have the brake. But.. my opinion only... I do not think it warrants the amount that it retails for. Many do think that as they are not having trouble selling them.
So again... my error and sorry to get your shorts in a wad. :>) But even with a brake I am still not interested in either at the price point of $2900 or $4000. I just need a well built TS and I have one that cost far less. Probably the last I will ever own.
Regards...
Sarge
Edited 9/18/2008 6:22 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Doug, I'm going to sling one tiny, itty-bitty cinder your way, just so you don't waste those fire-proof undies: The high-tech gizmo on the SawStop is a brake. The brake will not prevent kick-back from breaking your finger.
spelling lesson overforestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Neil,Thanks for your insights on this. The impending price increase is making me think hard about getting one of these saws. The main question is still, whether it is a feature that I am willing to pay a premium for? If so, I should probably do it before the price goes up.
Just a comment on users "feeling terrified" using power equipment. If used properly (I know, big "if"), power tools are pretty safe. Yes, accidents will happen, but accidents happen when driving cars, walking, etc.
I have noticed that accidents are more likely to happen when the user is "feeling terrified" because s/he does not operate the tool with confidence, leading to the tool taking control of the workpiece rather than the operator. For example, I frequently rip boards that have internal stresses large enough to stall the saw as the cut progresses. If I was tentative in my control of the workpiece, the saw would win that fight, and kickback would result. But, being confident enough to keep control of the workpiece when this happens merely results in a stalled blade -- much better than a wooden projectile zooming around my workshop!
If you lack confidence in an operation with a power tool, you're probably better off finding another way to do it -- hand tools are pretty fun ;-) -- or finding a way to make yourself comfortable with the power tool -- like using guides, hold-downs, push blocks, . . .
The sawstop blade break is a wonderful invention, but it cannot prevent all accidents. It won't do a thing to stop dangerous kickback, for example. It doesn't make the table saw into a Fisher Price toy. Never lose respect for your power tools, but never be timid when operating them either.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Thanks for your words of wisdom Mike. As I said before, I overstated my feelings a bit, but the saw does make me nervous even with pushsticks and featherboards. I like to look at it as a healthy respect. But the farther from the blade my hand is the better I feel and generally will use a push stick if I'm less than 12 inches. If I used it everyday I'd probably be more comfortable. And I certainly use hand tools at every opportunity but I can't see ripping a six or ten foot board with a hand saw even though I know it can be done, even done well.
But if anyone can afford a SawStop, I would say buy it..the sting of the cost as long worn off but the pleasure of using a really good piece of machinery is very much there.
Neil
Neil,I also always use of push sticks when I get close to the blade. The latest thing that's been on my mind had been kickback that throws the wood and my hand into the blade. I've even started gripping my push stick with a much lighter touch!
Mike,You mentioned:The sawstop blade break is a wonderful invention, but it cannot prevent all accidents. It won't do a thing to stop dangerous kickback, for example. It should stop an injury if you get kick back that pulls you into the blade. I think that that is a valid scenario.
I don't own a Sawstop, but I did use one when attending trade school. It was a beautiful machine - regardless its braking mechanism.I went a different route, and have a euro sliding table saw - safety issues are somewhat different with these, kickback still being possible, but less of a problem as you are not usually in line with the flung wood.If having a Sawstop gives you more confidence, then fill your boots. If you're working safely, you'll never know if it works or not. To expand on someone else's example, I always fasten my seat belt - but I have yet to know if they actually work, as I attempt to drive responsibly and safely.I think the Sawstop is an excellent cabinet saw even without the braking mechanism.
Roy,The mighty slider rears it's head again! Which slider do you have? There are unfortunately no low cost sliders with the exception of maybe Grizzly, which I'm not sure how I'd fit into my shop.
I have a Felder CF531P combo machine (sliding table saw/shaper/jointer/planer). You're right - it's expensive, and probably not within the budget of the average "weekend warrior", I only mentioned it to ameliorate the fact that I don't have a Sawstop - which machine I think is well engineered.I'm not advocating or shilling sliding table saws, or Euro combos - this one fit my particular needs - which is why I have it. Should the need ever arise to have another saw in my shop (I currently use my old Trademaster contractor's saw as a secondary saw - mostly for dado's and grooves), Sawstop would definitely be on my short list - as would General, Grizzly, Steel City, amongst others.
I just replaced my ancient Sears Craftsman with a Sawstop and I can tell you my attitude has changed. I used to approach ripping a long board on that Craftsman with dread--especially until it got to the splitter. I'm still cautious, but I enjoy working with the Sawstop.The advantage of the Sawstop is not just the brake. The riving knife is better and the whole feel is smooth and precise. It's a well-made well-thought out machine. I still have a healthy respect for the table saw, and use fingerboards holddowns pushsticks etc. The Sawstop is not accident-proof. But it is a safer product and that's important.Let's face it, there are too many injuries in woodworking. We ought to do whatever we can to reduce the odds of an injury. I love my new Sawstop.
John,Thanks for your views and opinions on the saw. I agree that it's a very nice saw with some nice features. Although the price increase has already taken effect, it's not completely off my list. Of course there are some other new and compelling saws on the market or coming to market. At this point, I'm going to wait a bit.
A very sharp spinning blade is scary, even on a Sawstop. I still use feather boards and push sticks. The idea of "I'll take a shortcut on time and safety since the saw will look out for me" has never crossed my mind. (That's not to say I've never done something which, in hindsight, has made me think 'gee, that was stupid.') Besides, I don't want to have to buy another blade and brake cartridge.
I was talking to a guy at Woodcraft who was doing a demo of the saw, and he told me after doing a number of the demos, and being fully convinced of the technology, he was thinking of trying it with his finger instead of a a hot dog. He said got within an inch or so, but couldn't bring himself to do it, even though he trusted the technology completely. Sometimes fear is useful.
My issue is that because the throat plate screws down, replacing the riving knife with the guard isn't quite as quick as in the video. Because of that, and because I often lower the blade to use the table saw top as a place to lay out lumber (I know, but I haven't built an assembly table yet), I tend to leave the riving knife on all the time, instead of using the guard. On my old cheapo Craftsman I would take the extra time to install and align the guard every time. Admittedly, the table wasn't big or stable enough to use for anything else, so the guard was left on most of the time except when cutting grooves. Also, I have gotten pretty cavalier about assuming the saw will not tip over when I'm ripping large boards or sheet goods.
I don't have a SawStop but am contemplating the purchase of one. Something to keep in mind is the technology will not stop kick back at all. The riving knife will help, but the blade brake wont. Something I've wondered about... The few times I've seen a video or tv showing of the brake in action, the operator seems to gingerly push the hotdog into the blade. But a real life scenario would likely be just the opposite. That is, one's finger (arm, hand, nose?) will be moved rapidly into the blade. What happens then? Has anyone seen a video that demonstrates this?
Here is a link to the FWW video clip of the SawStop contractor model. The brake technology is the same as the cabinet saw model. The second "demonstration" on the video shows a more probable scenario as to the speed one might really come in contact with the blade.
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/ToolGuide/ToolGuideArticle.aspx?id=30456
I'm old enough to remember cars with NO seatbelts, and my favorite riding position was lying on the back shelf behind the second seat. Then one day, seatbelts were introduced to cars. Hmm...a layer of safety. Next came the three point seatbelt... just ANOTHER layer of safety. Did you ever notice that race car drivers use a 5 point system of seatbelt?? STILL another layer of safety. Now pro racers use a special head restraint as an ADDED layer of safety.
That, my friend, is the purpose of Sawstop. ANOTHER ADDED layer of safety. In addition, the Sawstops riving knife will not eliminate kickbacks, but it will lower your chances of a kickback.
I wear (prescription) safety glasses all the time. I feel funny working on a lathe with just a face-mask. No I don't panic if I work without my glasses, I just realize that they too are another layer of safety. Different??? yes, but just that... different.
The price of a Sawstop is still cheaper than a trip to the hospital emergency room, not to mention pain or unemployment due to a TS injury. I see it as another LONG overdue safety improvement. When the next major improvement in TS safety comes along, we're going to say to ourselves, 'how did I ever use that Sawstop machine... it was so dangerous to use.'
SawdustSteve Long Island, NY
I don't own a Saw Stop but do use one at the local com. college and I don't think it has changed how I make cuts or made me less careful. I do think the fear of tripping the brake makes me more careful of the wood I feed through it though. I have an old jet contractors saw at home and when I feel I can afford to change saws at home I will buy a saw stop because in addition to the blade brake I think they are a very nice saw. I do find it interesting that they added a contractors style saw instead of a "hybrid" style saw. The motor hanging off the back of my jet saw is a pain.
Troy
Troy,You hit the nail on the head! The big annoyance of the contractor style saw is the motor that I constantly bump into! Followed by the difficulties in collecting dust.Still thinking about the Sawstop... Just can't quite pull the trigger.
I own a SawStop, and while I do not do anything (willingly) stupid while using it, I am much more confident using it. Of course, it replaced a Craftsman 9" TS from the 50's that did not even have an integral power switch that just scared the %$#@ out of me. That said, even with all of the precautions that one can take, you are still working in close proximity to a very sharp, very powerfully rotating blade that is very unforgiving to human flesh. Regardless of what anybody will say to the contrary, a SawStop lessens the odds of sustaining a serious injury with all other parameters being equal. There really isn't an argument there. Of course it is not idiot proof and you shouldn't become careless, but it's like a car...you an be an excellent driver with impeccable vision, reflexes and never speed, but there are a lot of moving parts and other elements on the road, and you are quite simply less likely to be seriously injured if you employ air bags, seatbelts and anti-lock brakes. Airbags were once considered a very expensive and uneccessary option...even overkill, but it is very hard to argue their effectiveness nowadays. I guess I would just say the following, I approach the table saw with the same respect, but much less trepidation now, and that is worth it for me. There are enough threats to digits, eyes and appendages in the shop. The more I can do to put the odds in my favor, the more I will do.
Edited 9/15/2008 11:36 pm ET by ThreePuttJoe
TPJ,I think that the confidence you mention is what I have been wanting to hear. As you said, it's like having ABS and AWD. Those items add to my confidence when driving, but I know that there a limits to even what those safety features can do.I'm not looking to have the brake be the only means of safety, but the brake, the RK, and good safe technique can start adding up. Lastly, do you use the blade guard? It looks really nice and actually usable! I haven't seen my blade guard since the first month I owned my contractor saw. The only other one that I've used is the one on my cabinet makers Martin.
I have to admit I don't use the blade guard very often even though it's easy to install...I have considered getting an overhead guard but haven't done it yet.
Neil
I think my SS makes me even more aware of the danger and how to work safely.
I don't own the tool, but (of course) I have an opinion.
Mario Andretti is credited with noticing how brave sprint car drivers bacame after USAC required roll bars. And nearly everyone on the road drivers as if they are riding around in a safer box.
Human nature would indicate complacency.
On the other hand, the SawStop's demonstration is done with a hot dog instead of the demonstrator's finger. Even with good safety equipment, there's no telling what can go wrong!
Getting back to the original question...
"I'm wondering if those that own the SawStop somehow feel different when they operate their saw now versus prior to having a brake in their saw?"
I upgraded from a DeWalt Hybrid TS to a 3 HP SawStop, dado brake, 52" rails, extension table and the SS mobile base. The total price was $4,300.00. For the record, SawStop controls all of their pricing so it won't do you any good to shop around.
Do I feel safer: Yes
Am I any less cautious: Not at all. The SS just adds another layer of safety.
In a recent article, I read that SS has sold over 13,000 units. Of that, there were 300 or 400 saves (2.5% to 3%). What do you think that percentage would be if the break was on a $500 to $700 saw? Discuss...
I have owned my Saw Stop for two years and have never utilized the system. Overall, I have a comfortable feeling knowing I am safer because of the technology. Beyond that, I find that I take extra precautions to insure that I never get caught off guard. I always wait for the blade to stop before reaching for cutoffs and I always use an appropriate push stick.
I have a dado cartridge for my dado set and am pleased with the ease with which I can change it. I have only bypassed the system a couple of times when cutting some wet wood and I seem to feel the extra danger when I know the system is bypassed.
Rather than being less aware, I guess I have a goal never to use the system, but gee it's great to know that it is there.
This is what I was wondering about from Sawstop owners, great comment here:"and I seem to feel the extra danger when I know the system is bypassed."Do you ever use the stock blade guard with the saw?Hmm... I wonder if Sawstop will ever think to integrate with the Onstar System. Have it call 911 when the brake is triggered!
I would like to be able to give you an answer to your question but I only ordered mine a few days ago. I took advantage of the warning of the price increase and when the store gets all the bits and pieces together I'll go pick it up. In a season or two I will know if the brake has an effect on the way I feel when I cut. Right now I have the respect and caution, but not fear. One of my reasons for the purchase is because my girlfriend wants to work in the shop and I want the added level of safety for her. I could be the best instructor in the world, and she the best student, however until a person gets some time under their belt, there is always a possibility of making a mistake even with supervision. Do you think a girl gets a 10% discount for a 9 fingered manicure?
I use it, when I can. The guard improves dust collection and keeps the woodchips from hitting you in the face. I'm pretty good about wearing my safety glasses... but I'm not good about wearing my dust-mask.
Thanks. Besides, of the added safety, the improved fine dust collection from above the table is one of the things that I'm really starting to think a lot about.
I've noticed a significant improvement in dust collection, too, when I use the guard on the Sawstop. Note that the guard is much narrower than other guards I've seen, and thus sits close to the blade. I had an experience while ripping a narrow strip where the guard slid off the work and hit the blade. That was unpleasant, and left quite a gouge in the guard. That, combined with the fact that the throat plate screws down means that I don't switch the riving knife for the guard as often as I should. For dust control and overall safety I think the way to go is an overhead guard/collector like Sarge and others use, but for that I'd have to make a serious upgrade to my DC.
I really like the narrowness of the blade guard on the SS. It looks like a stock guard that would actually get used. But what's this about screwing down the throat plate? Is it mandatory to screw it down? Would the rear hooks be good enough to hold the plate in place?
The guard does work really well, and once it and the riving knife are aligned they just pop in and out. I only had the problem when I used it while ripping a narrow strip off some plywood.
The throat plate has a little hex screw in the front. (I bought one of those little tool magnets from Lee Valley and stuck it on the rip fence to keep the allen wrench handy.) I honestly don't know if you need to screw it down (I just snug it up,) or if the two rear hooks are enough. It seems sturdy enough, and sits securely without the screw, but I haven't been willing to test this. I don't know what other Sawstop owners do, but I'm guessing we'll find out soon enough.
No, it is not mandatory. However, I'll bet that most SS users screw it down. I use a rare earth magnet, attached to the front of the SS fence, to hold the two allen wrenches - one for the throat plate and one for the break adjustment bolt.
It only takes a few seconds to switch between the riving knife to the guard... but it may take a minute if you have the throat plate screwed down. One of these days, I'll buy an overhead blade guard w/ DC. Until then...
We own two Sawstops in our shop. And without a doubt we are even more vigilant than ever before. The thought of amputation has always given me the willies and always will and so does the thought of kickback no matter what saw we are using.
I purchased a SawStop for my school shop and had it installed in July. This summer as I was using it, I did not feel different when I operated it. Personally, I think it is the best saw that I have ever used. I purchased it with the 52" table and a 5hp 3 phase motor. With shipping ours cost about $5500. We make furniture in my shop and have had quite a few accidents since the program started in 1972.
As far as I know, there has only been one accident on the table saw. A student was making a cut and the board started lifting up, no overarm guard, just a small splitter with no anti-kickback pawls. He quickly pushed the board back down onto the table, rather than let it come back and hit him. When he pushed it back down, his hand was directly over the blade. He ended up losing his middle and ring finger on his right hand.
I do feel more comfortable knowing that the chances of one of my students getting injured has gone down, because frankly some of them scare the hell out of me when they use any power tool. I always have the guard in place, unless I am unable to use it due to the type of cut. I have been told by several of my students that the SawStop is the best thing that I have purchased since I started in August 2007.
Edited 9/25/2008 12:34 am ET by powermac81
"As far as I know, there has only been one accident on the table saw. "
Please clarify -- was this on the SawStop? (If so, that's the first I heard of a serious cut with a SS.)
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Sorry, I did not clarify that better. The accident was about 20 years ago (way before the SawStop was even thought of).
There an "Edit" button under that post, you could click and reword the sentence to head off any rampant internet rumor. Glad to hear the students are now using a SawStop, always hate to hear of kids getting hurt in the shop.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
So when I went to check out the SawStop cabinet saw again, they gave me a free SawStop baseball cap. It's cool, but it's no substitute for having the saw. It's like a cool baseball cap that says Ferrari, it's still not like having a Ferrari. I've got 48 hours to decide if I want to spend the money before the price increase.
If you are im-patient to the point using safety features is just too much trouble.. or if you are un-disciplined to the point you you cannot follow safety procedures when they are in place.. if you have difficulty focusing.. if you can afford it...then you need to just get the SS without more thought.
Good luck as I have to get back to the shop and focus. :>)
Regards...
Sarge..
Sarge,The original thought this thread was to find our if the SawStop makes one feel less nervous while cutting wood. As we know, when things get repetitive, it becomes harder to stay focused. My current saw uses only a Biesy splitter for safety, I have nothing like a SargeGuard™. Beyond the brake, the SawStop has a really nice guard with an RK. At this point, I will not buy a saw without an RK. FWIW: I am leaning toward taking a pass on getting the SawStop. The cost of the saw is quite prohibitive and I'm having a hard time justifying that kind of money for a saw right now. I know that we're not in a "recession" but it sure feels like it! Also, taking a pass on buying a SS basically means that a new saw purchase will likely be put off until next year :(.
The "recession" is so close to a "depression" IMO it isn't even funny. If you don't commit you might look at the Grizzly slider which is a pretty nice saw. I looked it over at IWF and it was not bad for the price. You might also wait until the Grizzly (with the riving knife) hits the market they have on the web-site. And.. I have a strange feeling you will see a Steel City with riving knife other than the granite top hybrid not too far off in the future. :>)
If you can wait... it would probably be a wise wait IMO. But... if you just "feel more secure with that brake".. get it before it goes up. You and yours know best what you can afford and can't. And best kept that way as I see it.
Good luck...
Sarge..
Edited 9/27/2008 6:33 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Sarge,You saw the Grizzly Slider? That was my go to saw shortly after they announced it last year at the AWFS! My only concern about it is the sheer size of the slider. Do you know if it's possible to add a mobile base to that slider? Also, I thought that these saws were already available.
The slider is available and has been for awhile. I was referring to the new riving knife saw around $1700 that has not hit the scene yet I don't believe? I cannot say if a mobile base is an option on it as I really didn't take that into consideration when going over it. It's a better saw than I originally imagined it would be as the slider was pretty smooth considering the price point.
I would say that if I did not have room to park it permanently... I would probably opt for something else as the foot-print sitting on a mobile base (if you could use one) would be somewhat ackward to roll around IMO.
Good luck...
Sarge..
I bought a sawstop that is still at the store waiting for me to pick it up. My question and concern is this. I need to get the saw into my basement through the bulkhead door and down the stairs. Is it possible to bring in down on a hand truck? It is the cabinet version.
Thank you,
Greg
Edited 9/28/2008 10:05 am ET by gmoney
From the SS website, I wouldn't skimp on hiring all of your neighbors to help:Weights (may vary with motor): 530 lbs (table saw only)635 lbs (with optional fence, 36" rails & table)685 lbs (with optional fence, 52" rails & table)
Sarge,I believe that the Grizzly Cabinet saw with RK has been available since last year as well, it was announce at AWFS last year too. It features a huge out-feed table. With the SawStop slipping away, the Powermatic 2000 with a router table side board is looking to be the front runner for me. But now I've got time. Plus, I can buy that from my power tool guy. BTW: A slider has all but fallen off the consideration list, size and cost these machines are major concerns. What'd really be ideal is something like the Jet Hybrid saw with a sliding table... but only in a true cabinet saw.
Sarge,Hearing how cautious you are, I think I've become more careful when using the table saw these days, but I was looking through the SawStop website just to see if there are any other compelling reasons I might want to spend money on a saw stop before the price increase. I came across this on the SawStop Testimonials Website:"Chris was ripping a 2X8 piece of oak during woodshop class when the off cut caught an edge and his left index finger hit the front of the blade."“My student must have reached under the guard and heard the “thump” of the saw
blade before she knew she was hurt."I'm not sure how these mistakes could even happen?
"Chris was ripping a 2X8 piece of oak during woodshop class when the off cut caught an edge and his left index finger hit the front of the blade."
“My student must have reached under the guard and heard the “thump” of the saw blade before she knew she was hurt."
I'm not sure how these mistakes could even happen?
***
Case one... ripping with no guard and allowing the hand to get closer than 8"... Both with simple solutions.
Case two... student reached under the guard... Kind of self explanatory IMO. Dah.... what was student expecting to find under the guard on a TS with a blade spinning at around 4000 rpm...?... an ice cream cone in their favorite flavor perhaps.
In both cases if the recipients of the accidents had been aware of TS safety procedures and can't follow them they definitely need a brake on a TS and probably one on every other machine they use. Or... simply use a Power Feed which will take away the risk of body parts touching a spinning blade and unlike the brake.. eliminate the danger of kick-back which the brake has no influence with. And cheaper for that matter.
Case one.. I suggest using the guard and a red line drawn in a box on the TS with a $.079 red magic marker. Red duct tape works well on the fence.
Case two.. if you are not aware of what you will find under the guard on a TS powered ON and are curious... feel free to call and ask for Sarge @ 770-953-1307 24/7 and I will be more than happy to explain just what they could expect to find.
I ripped around 2000 linear feet of average 12' long pecan (hickory) rough ranging from 4/4 to 12/4 Monday and Tuesday successfully. A plastic guard was in place with a crown guard under it. Half fence right.. spring-board left and the hands never coming closer than 8" to the blade with the aid of a push-stick. All twisted and heavily cupped stock was culled before the operation and taken to the BS for ripping. Proper front and rear support of stock in both cases.
Perhaps my techniques might differ from those students who may never go on to rip that much footage in their life? I am not their teacher so I just couldn't say but... even though I realize a mishap could happen I feel I have done all that I can to avoid personal injury before and during the act.
So in my own case.. saddle up and let the Big Dawg rip stock all day long if necessary.. with confidence!
Sarge..
Edited 9/30/2008 11:41 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
Sarge,I posted to you since I just needed a reality check. I'm not saying that I won't ever have a TS accident, but after reading the accident testimonials on the SS website, I'm thinking that it is unlikely for me to have an incident like theirs.I try to never take short cuts (no pun intended) when using tools, usually it's dangerous or messes up my project!
You seem to have all the bases covered with regards to the safe use of your table saw. So much so that I get the sense from you that you are dissuading others from acquiring one in lieu of your methods. Your argument (as I'm digesting it) is compelling and follows my own shop practice, but the big question still remains. So, I'm wondering..... if I could wave my magic wand over your new saw and it would immediately sprout a SS braking system, would you want me to? Or do you think that having the braking mechinism might take the edge off of your safe practice.
First.. if anyone just wants a SS.. it is an excellent machine without the brake. I have stated that often. So.. get one. If anyone feels that they are risking their limbs with the methods they use and must have a SS to avoid their risk of loss of fingers.. hands.. etc... then get one. If anyone just likes the color or the ring of the name SS.. then by all means get one.
All I'm pointing out sapwood is that there are alternatives that are as good a saw mechanically as not everyone can afford that kind of money. Nor or they in "dire danger" from using one without a brake if sensible safety practices and common sense equipment if Used, not jsut put on a shelf to collect dust.
Not so much on this site but... on two other sites I frequent there are those that will answer the question of "which TS should I get.. I have $1200 or $2 K (varies) to budget on a new TS. The answer is you should get a Sawstop. I have one and .... yaabaa.. yaabaa.. yaabaa
There are similar post as "which SCMS should I get" and goes on to say they have a budget of $650. And of course there will be a number of post that immediately point out they should get a Kapex. I have one and.... yaabaa.. yaabaa.. yaabaa. Maybe I am just getting old and senile.. but it becomes more difficult each day for me to see these comments made after they read that the OP has a budget which appeared pretty clearly stated to an old, senile man.
Shop work will continue to exist without a SS or a Kapex which BTW, is a great slider with extreme accuracy. If I were professional trim man I would definitely consider one in lieu of an excellent $650 SCMS I have which I got discounted for $485. But.. I am not a professional willing to invest that amount of money for the small added margin of accuracy and dust control.
So.. I speak up for those that read the comments "you should get a "so and so"......... when the OP has made it very clear that they cannot afford what a "so and so" cost to point to alternatives. All I intend to do is make any that read aware that work can be done on an affordable alternative and safely... if they understand the principles of how to use a machine safely.
Perhaps I should just keep my mouth shut about using equipment safely regardless of if it has a brake or not? Perhaps that would be an excellent idea that would save me some time posting on forums as I have preached safety often in the past.
Would I take a brake if you waved your magic wand and put it on my saw free? YES.. it would raise the re-sell value as there are many that have been convinced they cannot proceed safely without one. Would I ever trip it if it were given to me free? Maybe... as I am not convinced that it won't trip from perspiration dripping on the blade as I do in the summer months with the doors open in Georgia humidity. Or perhaps from wet spots deep in stock that got missed by a moisture meter. After all.. the brake is nothing more than an expensive "moisture meter" that reads as you subject stock to it.
Would I ever expect to trip it with my hand or fingers? NO... I could give you the reason why but I have done that many.. many.. times over the years (several in this post) and perhaps I am getting tired of doing that as often as I do. Perhaps I should just worry about safety within the boundaries of my shop. Perhaps....
Sarge..
Yesterday, I had a student cutting a piece of stock (using a push stick) somehow manage to set off the saw. I heard a tink sound accompanied by the table saw shutting off suddenly and thought that it was weird. I walked over to it and sure enough, the blade had dropped below the table and the student did not know what happened. I asked to see his fingers and there was not a mark on them. I think this could have been prevented if I had removed the riving knife and reinstalled the blade guard. (We had been making some cuts where we could not use the guard.)I did notice he was wearing a watch so I am wondering if that could possibly set off the saw, or if you get very close to the blade but never actually touch it. Does anyone know?I called my superintendent shortly after it happened and let her know what happened and to say thank you for the saw. She had forgotten that we had purchased it in late May and had it installed in early June. She was relieved when I reminded her that we did have the SawStop. I know that she would have felt awful if we did not have the saw because she was unable to find the money because she said we need to order the saw now. I also called the company to ask them if they still replaced the cartridges if the blade made contact with skin, I was told that they do. I was told to ship the cartridge back to them (they are even paying for postage both ways) and they would check it out. If the blade did contact skin, they are going to send me a new cartridge. I also asked if I could have the old one back so I could show my students what happens to the cartridge after it is triggered.
Could the cut the student was making at the time the saw tripped have been made with the guard in place?
................................................
SOME PEOPLE ARE LIKE SLINKIES...THEY ARE NOT REALLY GOOD FOR ANYTHING, BUT...THEY STILL BRING A SMILE TO YOUR FACE WHEN YOU PUSH THEM DOWN A FLIGHT OF STAIRS
Yes it could have been made with the guard in place. As I stated in my other post, a we had just finished making a series of cuts where it was not possible with the guard in place, so I put the riving knife on instead and I had not switched it back yet.
Frankly PM81... if I taught students as you do each day obviously.... I would be leery of not having a brake on the TS being used. Similar to taking an un-proven young soldier into battle the first time... you can't look at them in advance and determine there attention span nor their responsibility level. Unfortunately you just have to watch them like a "hawk" until you do determine how they react to given situations.
I have a 22 year old son who is not allowed to use my TS or any other machines in my shop. I encouraged him at an early stage but determined he had no business operating potentially dangerous machinery as his attention span was close to non-existent. He had the same problem at school and it was determined he had ADDS or whatever you call it.
That is better now but not to the point that he really needs to be put in a situation that total concentration and attention to detail is of the most extreme importance IMO. One stray thought for even a moment while a machine is running is all that is required to trigger an incident that could prove not in your best interest.
So... again I will say that a SS is an excellent machine but.. there are others that are made as well if do your home-work and compare. The SS is made by Geetech in Taiwan who also does Sunhill.. Grizzly and a few others. The specs on it are out-standing but again.. there are other machines that are made as well and can produce the same specs on comparison. I doubt many have really compared the SS side by side to many other makes.
And the brake is a great addition if... if... if you are not normally safety conscious.. have a small attention span.. careless by nature.. not coordinated.. lazy mind.. or whatever. Probably not a bad addition even if you don't fall into the above categories but not everyone can afford one at the current price which shouldn't delay one minute of shop time by being safety concious IMO.
But... I say that with caution as having a brake alone will not do one thing to stop a kick-back which can potentially en-danger you as much as putting a body part into a spinning blade. "Rose's have thorns and silver fountains mud".. William Shakespeare
So yes.. there are possible thorns in what is otherwise a great idea. I see computer boards go bad often. How many times would I stick my hand into a spinning blade equipped with a brake of you supplied me with free brakes to run a test to see if the programmer will work each and every time without fail? Mama didn't raise a fool and the answer is Not One Time.. thank you anyway for the offer. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Regards to you and your students as you certainly have more patience teaching than I do at my age. :>)
Sarge..
"I would be leery of not having a brake on the TS being used. Similar to taking an un-proven young soldier into battle the first time... you can't look at them in advance and determine there attention span nor their responsibility level. Unfortunately you just have to watch them like a "hawk" until you do determine how they react to given situations."Sarge, I agree, and I do watch my students closely until I feel that they have demonstrated that they know what they are doing and do it safely every time. I do require them to come get me if they have any doubts or do a special setup. Almost all of my students are very aware about what they are doing, especially when using the ts. There are a few students that I do try to watch like a "hawk" but it is difficult especially when there are several students demanding your attention and asking a million questions.Right now, I am only in my 3rd year of teaching and am 27. The teacher I replaced was 57 when he retired. Some of the "older" students are not quite sure that I know what I am talking about, but I have been able "win" them over. I always tell them that the way I do something may not be the way the other teacher did it, but it works. I also tell them to find what works for them, and is safe and to do it. I believe that most of the students like and respect my opinion because I have challenged them and showed them a different way. It is hard trying to watch and keep track of 10 - 16 students at a time. You mentioned the way your son acted, that pretty much described every student that I have. I also twins who are considered "severe needs" they have a very low I.Q. and reading levels. This year they are freshman and are starting out on hand tools like all the other freshman, except we spent about 4 weeks on measuring and reading a ruler. Hopefully by April, they will be able to use some power tools (drill press, scroll saw, band saw, etc..) I do not think that their parents or I would be too comfortable with them using a ts, jointer, ras, scms, lathe, or router.
You have my admiration, PM81. I am a very patient person as I will sit and wait on finish to cure for a week or two, etc. etc. But... it has slowly drained when dealing with humans after going through teen-agers to the point you have no threat from me trying to take your job. But... I do admire someone as you who truly does have the patience to deal with them and help mold their future.
My son has the same problems with a tape measure as he truly never grasp simple math and fractions. He reads exceptionally well.. but that doesn't reflect what he might remember from what he read. But he is lost with a tape measure as explaining fractions and how to reduce them with simple math is a challenge.
Oh... he can break a computer down and put it back together with understanding of what each component does.. where it goes and why. I am basically computer il-literate with my wife retiring from MIS operations. But explaining you cut a pie into 16 pieces means each piece is 1/16 to him is similar to understanding how you can go to the grocery store... buy 4 bags of groceries and take out 6 bags of trash from what you purchased. I won't go into my theory of "missing socks" with that note. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
So.. keep up the out-standing work teaching the young ones as it is good to know there are still teachers that do care as there most definitely was when I was growing up. I appreciated them and hope your students appreciate you as they should.
Regards...
Sarge..
Sarge,You said:"Perhaps I should just keep my mouth shut about using equipment safely regardless of if it has a brake or not?"Please keep touting your safety advice. It keeps me thinking about Saw safety. BTW: In the end, I did not buy the SS. Now I'm just sitting back and waiting for some new saws to come out that I can hopefully justify spending money on. My Contractor's saw is works quite well, but I'm sick of bumping into that stupid outboard motor!
Put the motor next to a wall.... :>)
Something will come along that suits your fancy if you are patient. Maybe even a used at a great deal so just look occasionally. Right now with the current economy.. I am leery of buying any big ticket item. I prefer to wait as winter is coming and I have natural gas heat. That used to be ultra cheap here but not anymore. Electricity is half the price.
Again.. hang tight and an opportunity in the future will come calling when the time is right. And if you win the lotto tomorrow.. go ahead and get the SS regardless of if you feel it is justified. For that matter.. get several and give them to friends as Xmas gifts. hee.....
Regards...
Sarge..
If I win the lottery, I'd likely go for a Felder Combo Machine! But with this economy, I unfortunately think waiting is the right thing to do.... I'll see how long I can hold out! As for natural gas, amazing how that's shot up in price!
From 1972 until 1975 JM, I had a Shopmate (J.C. Penny circa 1951) circular saw given to me screwed under a sheet of 2 x 4 ply with a rectangular hole cut in top. An L shaped piece of aluminum with C clamp hold downs positioned it. The ON-OFF was simple.. you duct taped the trigger down and plugged it in or un-plugged it.
Then I hit a financial bonanza in late 1975 and took the large step up the ladder with a Sears contractor saw that served me well for years. Many pieces were produced on those two saws that are now considered crude. But... if you took away my current TS and replaced them with either... it would not stop me from doing what I love to do. And... I feel confident that I could do it in as safe a manner as it could be done considering neither have any advanced safety features and both would be considered quite crude by today's standards.
As for money.. my grand-pappy told me when I was about 8 years old that "if you don't have the cash.. you don't need it that bad and you will find a way to get it done". That statement has served me well over the years as I take what I have and I make it work.
The natural gas... the local power companies are offering a rebate to switch from natural gas back over to electricity for heating and cooking. In this area it has always (until recently) been more beneficial to wear the shoe on the other foot. But.. things change.
Be patient.. it will come!
Regards...
Sarge..
Despite some other advice, I think anyone can have a momentary lapse of attention, discipline, or foresight. Then an unfortunate event may occur. When this happens the safety feature of the Sawstop will save the day (one assumes). I have known several individuals who could have benefitted from the SS brake, all were very good and very experienced machine operators. Stuff happens. You know this. You want the saw. Go buy the saw.
Thanks Powermac. Time is running down for me on whether I purchase a Sawstop or not before the price increase. It's a very nice looking saw and a lot of money. But the added safety features would sure be nice to have. I think I'll go look at it again this weekend.
I struggled with the same question. Even after i showed my wife the videos on the SS website and she told me to buy one, I wasn't sure about spending that much. I bought one because I decided that I would have great difficulty living with myself if I didn't buy one and got injured with the table saw. Perhaps others might find that hard to understand, but for me that was the deciding factor.Yes, I always use the guard unless I'm doing a cut that can't be done with it on. Frankly that's very rare. In fact, I use the guard far more now than I ever used one in the past. The ease of removing and replacing the guard has meant that it stays on the saw unless I'm doing something that requires it to be off the saw. In the past taking the guard off and putting it back on my saw was very difficult so I usually left it off. I also like the fact that the SS guard has a built-in riving knife and on many cuts if the guard gets in the way it's easy to exchange the guard for the riving knife.
All I had to do to get the saw was to show my superintendent the videos and tell her how many people in the U.S. are injured by the table saw each year. She told me that she did not know where she was going to find the money, but she would find it some place.
Great move!!! When I was teaching I wish I had videos that dramatic showing the virtues of the things I wanted for my students. BTW -- I just retired after 37 years teaching elementary school and some classes at the University level.
Jointerman,
I've had my SawStop cabinet saw for about 6 months now. I feel safer with it than I did with my Unisaw, for the following reasons: It has a crown guard that I actually use. (I removed the anti-kickback pawls; to me they are more hazard than help.) It has the shark's fin riving knife for when the crown guard comes off. My Unisaw had a Delta removable splitter that I used religiously. I've never had one kickback while using a splitter/riving knife on a tablesaw.
Oh yeah, it also has a safety brake. I feel safer knowing it is there, but I cannot allow myself to rely on it. After all, I have a shop full of other dangerous machines that DON'T have safety brakes, so I cannot afford to be lulled into careless habits by the one machine that does.
In a way, I am probably more careful than before, because I know that even incidental contact with the coasting blade will trigger an actuation that I don't want to afford. In some strange way, the safety brake makes me even more careful, which is a positive thing. I am more aware of where my hands are at all times.
I subscribe to Sarge's view on woodshop safety. Be aware, understand the forces at play, and take the time to modify machines, accessories, and work procedures to ensure your safety.
Something I want to add regarding dado blades is that the anti-kickback safety dado is much less dangerous than older dado sets that are not chip-limited.
The SawStop is a delightful machine. They addressed so many of the deficiencies of existing cabinet saws while keeping what was good. I can balance a penny on edge on the table, turn on the saw, then turn it off after it runs awhile and the penny does not roll or fall over. This is the 5 hp single phase version.
My main complaints are with the 4" dust outlet (too small) and the sagged table board, both of which I corrected. I am not wild about the screw in the throat plate, but I use it. I want to dust-collect the crown guard some day, also.
This week I am adding a vacuum-collected PC 7518 router to the saw's table board, and will tap 4 holes in the right iron wing for mounting my power feeder. The feeder can serve both the saw and the router, from a common mounting point. For brain-numbing repetitive work, the feeder is a great aid to safety. I bought mine 15 years ago following a nasty "playing card" kickback, where the wood flies diagonally across the blade crown right at one's privates. Narrowly missed them, too.
Bill
"My main complaints are with the 4" dust outlet (too small)"... Bill
Hee.... I have a 6" direct hook-up from my cyclone to the bottom of my new saw which had the standard 4" port. The over-head is hooked directly to a 6 HP Shop Vac under the right extension table.
I find a great sense of gratification opening up a 4" hole on a beautiful paint job on a new saw to 6" armed with a saw-zall. The saw dictates the "power" when running. I dictate the "power" when it's turned off. BTW... the "new and improved" 6 inch port "gets er done" and done well indeed. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Regards...
Sarge..
Sarge,I know what you mean. I opened my Saw Stop's dust port to 6" with an eccentrically mounted (top half) 4" elbow inside it for the dust shroud. This had to occur before any serious dust got made, and it works very well, much better than stock.Bill
I've had my SawStop for a month now and I'd like to agree with Bill 100%:
"In a way, I am probably more careful than before, because I know that even incidental contact with the coasting blade will trigger an actuation that I don't want to afford. In some strange way, the safety brake makes me even more careful, which is a positive thing. I am more aware of where my hands are at all times."
Even a little mistake that wouldn't result in pain/blood will probably cost me $150 or more (cartridge and a blade).
IT is also a hot knife through butter. God, I love this thing.
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