Just finished watching S.Maloof shaping rocker arms on a band saw – a method he advises others with all 10 digits intact not to copy. This approach would seem to provide a very direct natural link between the dynamic 3d image in the mind, the hands and the piece – an important artistic consideration. Sam has 60 years of experience and is able to support the piece on the table at the point of cut at all times. Nonetheless this operation is dangerous, particularly in the event of the band saw blade “grabbing” without warning. Technology that could instantly stop a band saw blade in the event of a finger making contact would certainly be welcomed by woodworkers … particularly if the licensing of the technology was accessible to all band saw manufacturers at a reasonable cost.
Kym
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Replies
Kym,
I'm guessing but I would imagine that the momentum of two large bandaw wheels would take a very strong saw-stop type "explosive" brake to stop the whole mechanism - wheels and blade - instantaneously. Also, what would be the bandsaw equivalent of the TS blade dropping below the table? There is nowhwere for it to go.
Perhaps a brake could be organised that stopped the blade and at the same time dropped the top BS wheel so that the braked blade could slide over the still-turning tyres? The wheels could keep turning, in other words, so only the blade was braked. This probably could brake the blade instantaneously but would mean re-engineering the whole bandsaw top-wheel moving apparatus. Not impossible but perhaps not an easy thing to retrofit to an existing BS?
Lataxe, who does like his fingers; a lot; all of them.
Lataxe,Clearly, the blade would remain in place - it can't vanish like a TS blade can.Perhaps a better way to describe your second brake idea is to remove the tension from the blade. Another way might be to drive something into the spokes of one of the wheels.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Lataxe,
Ever seen a bike wheel stop when a branch kicks up into it? Or when someone shoves a tire pump (tyre pump to you) into the rotating spokes?
A simple-to-engineer solution (at least to my non-engineering mind) would be to affix steel bolts in the cabinet that would be fired into the bandsaw's wheels should the need arise. That would stop the wheels. But I don't know what would happen to all that momentum. There would be a lot of thrashing and banging around, that's for sure.
I guess I'm not sure there is such a need for a device on the bandsaw though. How many emergency room visits are due to bandsaws versus tablesaws? I'm guessing a mere fraction.
Zolton - who did a sweet and leisurely 40 miles today in the first 70 degree day of the season. If you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
Zolton,I don't remember who said it, but I read on this forum somewhere that according to an emergency room doctor, there are more bandsaw accidents than tablesaw accidents, possible due to the idea that the bandsaw is safer. Complacency is the enemy.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
All,My Minimax bandsaw brake is surprisingly affective at stopping the machine. I don't actually think crazy affairs like shooting spoke bolts or even "disengaging the wheels" is really necessary. I think it could actually be as easy as a spring loaded, "armed", pusher on a conventional brake. Manually set and triggered with the electronics.If you don't think that would work well then it's probably only because you have never used a brake on a Minimax saw. It is a way good brake.Rob Kress
Rob,
That is interesting news about the brake on your saw. The questions are, how is it applied and how much blade descends into the table after the brake goes on?
I ask because although both my TS and BS are braked to a degree (they stop within about 3 seconds of the motor being switched off) the brake is not instantaneous as with the sawstop. If your BS blade travels even a few inches after the brake goes on, that would be enough to get the finger flying.
Also, what applies the brake? I imagine it's you pushing the stop button; so an adaption to give a sawstop effect would require the same kind of flesh-in-blade sensor that a sawstop TS has.......?
BS wheels surely have a lot more angular momentum than a TS blade and arbour. Therefore they would need a large braking force to stop them instantly. Zolton mentions a bike wheel stopping sudden-like when it picks upa stick and jams it over the forks. It's true this causes an instant stop (of the wheel, the cyclist bites the tarmac) but a bike wheel is very light and is also usually badly bent in such incidents.
Them wheels in my BS are cast iron jobbies, deliberately made heavy to provide that big angular momentum that helps to give a constant cutting speed.......
More details about your BS brake would be most interesting.
Lataxe
Lataxe,You should watch the minimax vid on line. In one of them, the demonstrator uses one finger on the brake to stop the blade. Kind of a nice carnival trick for a video and I didn't think much of it. Until I got my saw.I will admit that my blade probably doesn't stop as fast as the saw stop table saw blade but I can stop it way faster than I can see it. And since I have a little bit of germane knowledge, I know that for the most part, people can only see things roughly 3 times per second. That makes my blade stopping faster than 300 milliseconds. So, I guess I could continue on the math track and calculate how much blade travels through the table in .300 seconds but I'll leave it at not much. I would think not even inches. Hmmmmm, maybe I should do the math? Moving on.....I can't describe the brake assembly well because I can't really see it behind my wheel. But I think I remember seeing it somewhere on the MM site or something like that. Anyway, nothing fancy at all. Just something like a drum brake with the shoe on the outside of the drum. Might have been a strap instead of shoe. You get the idea.So really just a big spring loaded "foot" held in place with an electronic trigger. Then release foot when needed. Very fast stopping.Rob Kress
SawStop is apparently working on a band saw prototype. Watch the video on the right hand corner.
http://www.sawstop.com/future/future_home.php
Edited 3/17/2009 3:36 pm ET by mvflaim
Interesting. What do you want to bet that they are using a variation of what Lataxe suggested?
GeorgeYou don't stop laughing because you grow old. You grow old because you stop laughing. - Michael Pritchard<!----><!----><!---->
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I get this image of a kid being dressed by his over protective mother to go outside and play in the snow, You’ve seen the kid dressed with so many layers of clothing that he can’t bend his legs and arms or turn his head. Now I’m all for safety but enough is enough. The next thing you know they’ll be installing air bags to protect from kick backs.
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DustyMc<!----><!---->
Dusty,
You've still got all yer fingers then? How are your lungs - dusty too?
Lataxe, your would-be nanny.
Ir-ee!, you do take the high path at times my friend.
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I was steamin a little sarcasm about the new fangled thing.
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But a question it is I have, if it were an option would it sell?
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DustyMc<!----><!---->
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I've watched several of these safety threads, trust me when I say it's generally best to not question the Sawstop Cult. They are fervent and unwavering in their belief that any machine not incorporating the Sawstop magic is a weapon of mass destruction to be enclosed in a lead lined case and buried for future generations to discover and express shock and dismay at our primitive 20th century technology.
If you have no balls and no grasp of common sense and expect everyone to protect you, or refuse to question those who advocate mandantory protection and refuse to fight for liberty then you will be buried in the lead lined case you reference and rightly so.
................................................
Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
Don,
Now, I must take issue with your rather old-fashioned understanding of the Darwinian concept of survival of the fittest.
Agreed, a sense of self-responsibility and awareness of danger are probably good survival traits. But so are intelligence and social co-operation, as in arranging safety mechanisms on inherently dangerous machines via market or mandate-led design improvements.
Whilst a bandsaw will not remove one's bollock (unless a very strange sawing procedure is adopted) it might remove your finger. It only takes a moment's inattention or distraction - something that can happen to even the most survival-minded chap over a lifetime of using such machines; or to a novice; or to a standard-issue fallible human like me, you and virtually everyone else I know.
*****
When doing risk assessments there are a number of factors to consider. The degree of risk that a bad event will occur; the mecanisms to reduce that occurence-rate (and hence the risk); the cost of a bad event occuring. Folk often forget the last factor, thinking that if a risk is small and the controls (common sense) reduce it even further, then the cost of the risk manifesting is irrelevant. But it ain't, as long as the risk is not zero.
I don't want to pay the cost of loss of a finger due to one moment's inattention in a zillion hours of careful attentiveness. It's too high for me and beyond price (or at least the price I can afford). So I would hope for and buy a sawstop mechanism for my finger-removing tools, if it were available and I could afford it. Just now it isn't......
And I don't even have the additional risk of huge medical bills, as I am a lucky citizen of Nanny with her National Health Service. This safety blanket, strangely, does not cause me to be cavalier with my finger or any other body part. Perhaps I lack bollocks? :-)
Lataxe
Edited 3/18/2009 5:40 am ET by Lataxe
The thought of you needing a saw-stop-bandsaw to protect your lower regions that you question the existance of amuses me greatly.Me thinks it is a cunning plan to get the spouse to fund a new bandsaw <g> Maybe I have the wrong end of the stick!
Lataxe,
Oh yes, and lets make possession of un-registered saws illegal, too. Operators' Licenses required to purchase, upon application to the State Saw Control Board, and presentation of properly endorsed and current Bandsaw Safety Training Certificate, available upon successful completion of a Safety Course's Examination, from the State Personal Safety Council's Wood-Worker Self-Injury-Prevention Academy, Power-Tool Division (Saw Protection Bureau--Bandsaw Dept), and subsequent approval of the full Board (meets quarterly). Renewable semi-annually, subject to approval of the Shed Safety Inspector General, after no less than three (3) passing inspection scores, from no more than five (5) un-announced visits to said shed during the calendar half- year after issuance of the initial Permit. Passing test scores available for viewing by the public at the Bureau of Shed Safety's office, on alternate Thursdays. Incidences of Shed Safety Infractions (see the B of S S's pamphlet, "Shed Safety Infractions: What are they, and How Can I report Them?"--available from the Government Office of Safety Publications or from the Clearing House of Huge and Towering Government Paper Mounds) may be reported to the Bureau of Shed Safety by concerned members of the public (or neighbors bearing a grudge) on the first Monday of months containing the letter "M". An mnemonic to remember this is to think of the word, "Moronic".
What you'uns who insist on someone else preventing you from pushing your hands into bandsaws need is not a saw-stop bandsaw, but a hand-powered bowsaw. Even the dumbest, most unco-ordinated of boy scouts can figure out how to stop doing damage when the teeth of such a tool meet his skin. Second thought, maybe a strait-jacket would work better...
I'm with dgreen on this. If you saw off a finger or two, be a man! Pick em up (don't want someone to step on one and have a fall), stick em in a pocket, and get on with your work.
Ray
Amen Brother! Preach the WORD!
Bruce"A man's got to know his limitations." Dirty Harry Calahan
I can see it all now , we got our ear protection on eye protection,
some are wearing gloves ,knee pads along with steel toe boots and a pocket liner so we don't get hurt from our scary sharp pencils and such .
Man there are so many things in this world to get hurt from , maybe we should lock ourselves in our sheds without the electricity on so we don't hurt ourselves .
The table saw has a bad rap and rightfully so , we hear of the most incidents occurring on this beast because it gets used and abused most often , the bandsaw to my knowledge has not been the wrong do er as far as mass amounts of injuries , have you or anyone you know ever been injured from the band saw .
I hurt my back moving one once .
edit : Sure I have had a few kickbacks in my time but about the worst injury I have ever had woodworking was from a chisel I embedded in one of my thumbs .
You speak of controls , very wise to prevent an incident before it happens .
Perhaps a less mechanical set of controls should be put into place such as a breathalyzer test and a numerical key pad to test your sobriety or memory ?
Common sense may be the best safety control or handtools work for the void in groin group .
dusty
Edited 3/18/2009 10:40 am ET by oldusty
I really can't take your last post as serious. Why do you hate the sawstop idea so much?There are, like you said, so many things in the world that could hurt us. The best way to avoid most of them is by using common sense, of course. I think we could all agree that seat belts are a pretty necessary safety device which is why all cars have them. If someone bought a car because it had better air bags or a 5 point harness I don't think I would make fun of them or badger them with dumb questions. It's their money, if they want to spend it on things like that, then go ahead. That being said, I do own a sawstop. I was purchasing my first cabinet saw recently and decided I wanted to spend the extra cash for the safety device it has. That doesn't mean I don't practice safe work habits. It only takes a half of second of stupidity to really hurt yourself with a table saw. I don't consider myself a moron, but over the next 40 years I can't guarantee I won't ever mess up.No one is making you buy a sawstop TS. No one is making you buy a sawstop BS. If you don't like these 'controls', there is no need for you to belittle those who do want them. Also, these are all passive safety systems so your poorly thought out numeric keypad, breathalizer analogy doesn't quite work.
A M ,
I never said I hate the SS idea so much !
We all mess up , some like me often .
I don't feel like you are making me buy SS equipment , heck no .
In the free world we have the freedom to purchase the machines of our choice , I think that is the way it should be .
I didn't begrudge you for your SS , didn't even know you had one nor would it really matter .
Your feathers seem to have been ruffled by my poking fun at the thought of more SS type of tools , really did not mean to offend anyone .
If I don't rattle Lataxes cage at least once a month or so he gets crabby with me .
The only question I asked was did Lataxe or anyone he knows injure themselves on the BS .
This is a public forum we all don't agree on very many things yet we share so much .So you were welcome to respond but the message was not directed to you personally.
regards dusty
Dusty,
I will go out into the world and seek bandsawn hands on woodworkers and other BS users. I'm sure there must be at least 23,813 of them - if we count the lads who saw up frozen coos and fishies.
Of course, I rarely talk to other woodworkers as they might inveigle a tool or wood out of me. Perhaps Taunton ought to do an injury poll?
Lataxe, fearful of great whirling machines (I remember the Victorian mills you know).
L ,
I do respect all tools and machinery and the river . All have brought me within a 1/4" of my life , or so it seemed .
I would not for a moment tell others the BS can't hurt you , many nipped off fingers and thumbs .
I would say operator error not mechanical failure causes the injuries .
I have had a few religious experiences on the shaper as well as the drill press and the RAS too .
the young lad :
things are not always as they appear .
I been hurt with a hammer , been hurt with a chisel ,,, hey maybe some day
dusty , makin boxes
You said, "I would not for a moment tell others the BS can't hurt you , many nipped off fingers and thumbs ".
" You said, I would say operator error not mechanical failure causes the injuries ."
I sure had a close one on a bandsaw when the 1/2 X 3 hook blade broke and it snaked out onto the table.
Luckily it was one of those shot at and missed, Sh-t at and hit.
Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Edited 3/23/2009 9:09 am ET by BruceS
dusty,
I haven't read all the posts in this discussion, but I will.
Up to this point I would like to add a thought. One thing that bothers me is that if manufacturers were to make all their tools idiot proof (prolly a harsh assessment on my part but not meant that way) would we become complacent to safety practices?
I tend to think that over time one might come to rely on these devices for their protection and in some cases might actually induce some folks to take otherwise dangerous chances they might not have done prior to implementation of blade brakes for example.
An observation: When I hit the START button on the table saw it jumps to life with a roar of authority, 10 inches of blade turning at a frightening speed and sound. When I hit the START button on the bandsaw it, in comparison to the tablesaw, slowly and quietly comes to life with a very small amount of exposed blade whirring around on enclosed wheels.
Not nearly as intimidating as the tablesaw just from a sound emitting standpoint. I tend to be more complacent when using it (bandsaw) as opposed to let's say the table saw, planer, jointer or router table for that reason alone.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that with a healthy respect for any powered tool and a good helping of functional guards in place one can do a lot to keep safe using these tools.
All: As Lataxe says, common sense is variable from one person to the next, but should it be? Especially when you're about to use a power tool. Stand there in front of the tablesaw and hit the START button. Just stand back for a moment and observe what that tool is doing, think about the potential the tool has for harm. Now do the same thing with a bandsaw.
I don't know of a power tool that has any amount of common sense that jumps out and whaps ye up side the head when you're about to do something, well downright dumb. I wonder how many times the woodworker in the E.R. thought, now that was just a real stupid thing I did.
In and of themselves I think bandsaws are inheritantly safer than many other power tools, but all power tools have the potential to maim as do many hand tools. As a matter of fact, I think any tool has that capability, some more than others.
Common sense?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
I think you have an idea of common sense as: the accumulated wisdom of careful analytical thought based on evidence from relevant experiences. I suggest only that this stuff is not that common - neither analysis nor experience - when folk come to use dangerous stuff.
This applies to all of us, as even if we are full to the brim with common sense on 99% of ocassions there is always the other 1% when we have temporarily forgotten to be sensible. Many conditions can cause us to lose our normal mind-state.
I don't mind if lads want to pretend to themelves that they never do a daft thing. However, I myself want safety devices to become available on the market so I can use them (I know I can be daft); and so that novices and innocents-abroad can have some protection too.
That latter point is important. Until not so very long ago it was the new, young employees who were injured or even killed most frequently in the workplace. There were either no safety devices to protect the inexperienced or they were deliberately removed by unscrupulous employers to speed work rates. Chop, crush, fall, maim, die.
Take off your safety devices and protection, if you believe this will make you more careful. I'll keep mine (and hope for even more to become available) whilst still remaining very careful indeed. It's lads who think they don't need to do safety stuff that are the most likely to get hurt, not just becaue of a lack of safety devices but also becaue they become over-confident with dangerous machines as they accumulate accident-free experience.
Then one day up pops the black swan and there is their finger on the floor. "I wish I'd bought that sawstop (sob)".
Lataxe
Lataxe, old friend,
Indeed, I have no problem with safety devices. I have even used one or two from time to time:) The difficulty I have, is that too often, those offering them up, would require those who (for whatever reasons-excess of testosterone, old habits, slothfulness, poverty, gross stupidity) are satisfied with the olden dangerous, risky ways of doing things, be relieved of the liberty of choosing for themselves.
My argument has less (I 'ope) to do with arrogance, hubris, or overconfidence (who, me?), than this:
It all revolves around that fast-fading concept; individual liberty, the freedom to choose. I vehemently support your right to purchase or attempt to sell, a sawstop-equipped cotton swab (someone might lose his normal mind-state and want to put it in his ear, y'know), if that is what you want. All I ask is, don't mandate your safety devices on us all, by trying to legislate away all risk.
Heard talk yesterday that the state where the young actress tragically hit her head while skiiing and died, is taking up legislation requiring helmets on all ski slopes. As soon as a famous personage has a fatal hangnail infection, there will no doubt be laws against unregulated clippers and files.
Complete liberty, I know, is anarchy. Some balance must of course, be achieved, and maintained. But the tendency for any bureaucracy is to justify its existance by finding ever more things to legislate against. All for our own good, you understand.
Our sage Ben Franklin said something to the effect that those who willingly give up liberty to gain security, deserve neither.
Our society is too much preoocupied with the fear of failure, or of harmful consequences. The consequence is the loss of much that could be savored, by our giving in to trepidation.
Grey, grumpy auld right-way Ray, muttering in his beard
Ray,
I have no quarrel with your view on making a balance between liberty / individual choice and legislation to provide safety in various domains. But there already is a good balance in Europe, for the most part, in respect of machines and other risky devices.
The provision of safety stuff on such machines is mandated on the manufacturers and sellers. It is also mandated that those who require others to use their machine (eg employers, teachers and similar) do not remove the safety gubbins, as it should not be the employer's choice to force an employee to work less safely.
The private individual may remove all the guards, get nekkid and dive on the rotating saw blade if he wants. No one will prosecute him, although they might consider calling the men in white coats to examine his wetware.
Lataxe, no saw diver.
Lataxe,
the accumulated wisdom of careful analytical thought based on evidence from relevant experience
Nope it's simple: put ye hand on that blade whilst it's running and it's gonna cut ye. No need to analyse that, common sense I say, or mebbe instinct?
Now before anyone gets the idea that I'm in any way anti safety devices I suggest they have a look at some previous posts in here, especially when the safety topic has come up in the past.
Numerous times I've teed off on manufacturers as being lax with their offerings and in fact have suggested that they may in fact have put folks in harms way. One in particular had to do with the fence on my contractors saw - such a poor excuse for a fence that I believe it to have been dangerous!
I'm all for safety devices and I'm also about freedom of choice.
A point that I was trying to make was that I feel the machine itself may have something to do with ones perception of how safe it is to operate. Well, maybe not the machine itself but they way it works.
To this day I get a twinge of trepidation when I hit the start button on my tablesaw, can't say the same thing about my bandsaw though. There's just something about a 10" steel disk with carbide teeth, peeking up through a hole looking you straight in the eye whilst spinning 100 mph, that tells me to be careful. Common sense, instinct and maybe a good helpin of respect?
There's also something else that I don't recall being mentioned thus far. What about the situation when a machine or part(s) of it fails. The sawblade throws a carbide tooth, the blade breaks on a bandsaw? Here's one fer ye, I can start my bandsaw without the blade being tensioned.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 3/20/2009 5:19 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
"One thing that bothers me is that if manufacturers were to make all their tools idiot proof (prolly a harsh assessment on my part but not meant that way) would we become complacent to safety practices?"
You forgot to mention that there is always a dumber idiot existing somewhere that will have the capacity to thwart all safety devices and suffer an injury as a result, ha, ha. Slainte.richardjonesfurniture.com
It's called "risk compensation". The more prevalent the risk reduction technology the less likely the benefit (lower risk) is experienced because users invariably take greater risks than they would in the absence of the technology or device.I'll give you a completely orthogonal example to further make the point. There are no studies that I am aware of that correlate increased availability of condoms with lower HIV infection rates. In fact it's just the opposite according to the Harvard Center for Population and Development Study and the U.S.-funded ‘Demographic Health Surveys".
The more prevalent the risk reduction technology the less likely the benefit (lower risk) is experienced because users invariably take greater risks than they would in the absence of the technology or device.
So, not to oversimplify your statement but what I understand you to say is users take greater risks (become complacent?) with machines outfitted with all manner of safety devices? The more safety devices the less likely I'm gonna get hurt?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Hi, Bob. I saw "14 new of 71" and knew I can't read through to whichever one is mine. Hope this thread survives until I can get back to it after Monday -- scheduled 12-16 hr/day until then with the hoofed angels in a clinic, and probably won't see much of the computer.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Another argument is that by increasing the apparent risks of any activity where the principle cause of accident is human failure results in a decrease in accidents as people are more acutely aware of the dangers and act accordingly.
This is not entirely theoretical either:
Alan ,
Help us out here , how about posting a picture of your SS and show us your set up , fence and all .
Maybe you could point out what the best features to you are and convince the world a 22 year old man buys a nice new saw and seemingly has done the research .
Did you have experience with other cabinet saws ?
thanks
dusty
A picture of my SS wouldn't be anything special. It's the standard 3HP cabinet saw with 52" fence and an outfeed table I made.Of course I have very little experience compared to 99% of the people on these forums. I'm just starting off while most of yall have been doing this for as long as I've been alive. I have respect for that and it was from a lot of people's opinions like yourself that I decided on the SS as my first real saw. It is a much better saw than I am a woodworker (as any steel city, delta or good quality cabinet saw would be). I just knew I want to do woodworking for the rest of my life and didn't see a need to buy a $1,000 saw before I got the one I really wanted. It was also partly paid for as a college graduation/house warming gift so I was out of excuses.As for my saw experience, not that this has any real bearing on the subject: i've owned two cheap contractor saws over the last 10 years and used an older and a newer unisaw at a friends shop and a PM2000. I'm also 24, not 22 - funny although my profile clearly shows my age you restated it as lower to try to take credibility away.
Alan ,
Sorry about getting your age wrong , I in no way tried to take any credibility away from you , it was not on purpose .
You are correct in your thinking that some of the skills possessed may not be as highly capable as the machine capacities .
I am living proof and a strong believer in it is not what you have but what you know that is most important . I know to a young man that must sound like a bunch of stupid words but it is what counts , don't stop learning and growing , allow yourself to venture out and ultimately make mistakes , those are the best lessons .
regards dusty, just a boxmaker
Dusty,
You and them cowboys lads want us humans to be stern-jawed infallible folk, like Mr Wayne or even Charles Bro
nson. Ah ha! This type of human only occurs in hollywood scripts. In fact, 99.9999999% of humans make mistakes albeit some make more than others. This is a good way to learn, as long as the price is not too high (such as a finger or three to learn only that saws cut flesh, as we already know).
I know no one that has "common sense" (or any other kind of sense) from morn til night and also after dark. This common variety of sense is also a mysterious thang that seems to vary from one human to the next so is not in fact common at all.
Me, I like to protect myelf from myself. My sensible self, when it is at home in my body-brain-personality thang, therefore makes an executive decision to impose rules on the careless, tired or just plain dumb version of me, the one that pops out like Mr Hyde on a regular basis.
Hence I may avoid going blind in one eye (safety specs that also improve my old eyesight); going deefer than I already am or becoming tinnitus-ridden (ear defenders); or crushing my foot with a geet big plank when I drops it (steel-capped shoen). If there was a sawstop enabled machine or two available here in Blighty I would count my pennies and save up for it. You only cut yer fingers off once and sewing them on again (I hear) does not usually result in a satisfactory hand.
****
Now, I don't mind in the least if fans of Mr Wayne or even Clint want to play with guns, fast cars, knives and powered saws with no safety features. Perhaps there will be some Darwinian events and those with an excess of testosterone and a mind skewed by watching too many cowboy & injun films will die away? I will happily come and raid their sheds for the abandoned tools, although the unisaws and similar will be left behind, as Nanny is quite right to point out that tugging a tiger's tail is rather silly, especially if it ain't in a cage.
Call me a big soft wussy lad. I don't mind and will probably show to all those catcallers a variations of a rather olde Anglish gesture which demonstrates that all my fingers are still on. :-)
Lataxe, a soft-lad.
Edited 3/18/2009 12:31 pm ET by Lataxe
"we hear of the most incidents occurring on this beast because it gets used and abused most often , " IMHO, it's also the machine that can do the most damage, so I'm thinking that's another reason. I can't imagine many people cut off more than one finger due to a single band saw accident. Incredibly easy for a 10" saw blade to accomplish that -- 4 fingers at once is a piece of cake.
No sweat, Dusty, nobody's trying to make you approve of the Sawstop. But those of us who appreciate that extra layer of protection aren't being whimps, we're just being realistic about our human-ness.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
FG ,
First off the band saw can remove a digit in about the same time as a TS
the difference you might feel it before you see blood .
So don't let your guard down or your concentration lapse , when something feels like it's wrong the best advice is to STOP ! No matter the machine you are using , studies have shown that just before an incident the operator felt uneasy about the operation .
That said :
All the safety devises in the world will not make up for a split second human error , common sense says listen to your innards.
I never used the word wimps ,
For some reason you seem to be rather selective on what comments you disapprove of .
If you read through the thread you will see phrases like " a real man would just pick his fingers up and get back to work " and the best from another close to you " no balls " .
Now I word things as careful as I can so as not to offend or to be too graphic , I did not see you respond in disapproval to the others , why not ?
After 25 - 30 - 40 years many of the respondents have hands on (no pun intended ) real world industrial experience using what has been considered to meet and exceed industry standards , for those of us who still got all 10 I guess we could have been even safer all these years .
regards dusty
Edited 3/19/2009 9:49 am ET by oldusty
Would there be such a thing as a Hammer Stop in the offing??
I haven't done it yet but I am considering the effects of a miss-hammer when peening which would result in both personal damage and damage to the work piece.
If the hammer itself would just stop a half thou short of impact this would be good... (;)Philip Marcou
Philip,
Yes, them handtools is dangerous and should all be banned by Nanny using backup from her rozzers and beaks. Whilst I'm ranting on, how about (as an intermediate measure) arranging those shavings-collectors on the planes? I might well become buried in uncollected shavings one day and never be seen again! The ladywife would be concerned, although no one else would bother if shaving suffocation should be my terrible fate.
*****
Well, we must give Dusty and others their point that we cannot be totally safe from life and its mechanisms. Guarding the hammer is a somewhat impractical ambition so we will just have to learn and apply good beating techniques. Of course, this will always be insufficient as every now and then a human foible will emerge and cause a thumb-hit, chisel slice or saw-dig into the flesh. It's an unavoidable risk we can all reduce via care/skill but not totally avoid.
I have more scars from hand tools, acquired in the last couple of years, than from all the other bang-ups of my careless life.
Hand tool injuries are usually minor but not always. A bad chisel push into one's own personage may well cut arteries, nerves or tendons. The only safety choices are: good chisel technique on all occasions; very blunt chisels (you still get a bruise); or no chisel work allowed. It's hard to envision a safety guard on a chisel-in-use.
But maybe Bridge City Toolswill bring one out? ($399.95 a set of three).
Happily those WW machines may be easily improved to provide inherent safety features to their design. When these are well-done they don't interfere with machine operation but greatly reduce the risk of a Major Incident to one's tender parts.
Some lads think that making these safety arrangements cause the operator to become blase and cavalier. This is probably only true of persons who are already that way inclined and so eschew safety technologies in the first place. Me, I am very careful of my one and only body, even though I am shrouded in safety gubbins. It doesn't spoil the fun, you know - unless such gubbins induces somewhat over-the-top libertarian paranoia about a Dark Nanny with an electric goad waiting under the bed.
Lataxe, who likes small risks and even smaller consequences of them realising (as they do).
"For some reason you seem to be rather selective on what comments you disapprove of ." Dusty, Dusty, I don't disapprove, but do disagree to some extent. Wasn't trying to single you out (I think I replied to 2 or 3 other posts here -- see my Hogwash! remark to Woodman above, LOL!), just a friendly 'discussion'. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Seeing as how you singled me out, I must respond.My initial post on this thread was entirely satirical but it has turned into a more serious discourse as the thread just happened to get more interesting. You say the TS is more "creative" in the manner by which it can harm you and you feel competent on the bandsaw, thus additional safety measures are not warranted. This is incongruous with the statistical data which conclusively demonstrates a higher gross numbers of injuries with bandsaws than tablesaws. Not having a reason to suggest there is widespread incompetence among bandsaw users, I think we can reasonably conclude that the closer working space (near the blade) and lack of effective guards make this machine inherently more dangerous. BTW, I'd still like to see injury rates per capita before really committing to this argument... if anyone has the data I would love to see it.Back to your thesis that confidence in one's safety precautions is paramount, would you not then submit that someone, such as myself, with years upon years of safely operating a wide range of tablesaws has the same confidence and precaution that you demonstrate, on for example, the miter saw? As I stated in a previous reply, the Sawstop is indeed a very impressive tablesaw, I simply wish people would devote as many bits to writing about the good and bad of the working end of the saw rather than simply the safety mechanism. Nobody reviews or comments on a vehicles air bag, seat belts, or the antilock brakes. BTW, speaking of cars and safety devices, which came up in an earlier comment, the law on unintended consequences reminds us that we should be careful about unwavering belief in safety devices in cars. Seat belts and air bags can kill children when not modified in their application, or in the case of air bags, disabled. Antilock brakes and traction control systems are great for the mass market but good drivers can outperform both systems, and the best safety mechanism that exists today for any vehicle is a competent and alert driver.
Woodman,I posted the analogies about auto safety, e.g. air bags, ABS, etc, though I fail to see how laws of unintended consequences and unwavering belief in technology are objects automatically spawned from merely speaking about safety devices.Just today, on my commute home (680 and Stoneridge, I remember you as a Bay Area guy), I saw the aftermath of a crash severe enough to warrant the Jaws of Life to open the driver's door. The air bag was clearly deployed; the entire dashboard was forced towards the driver's seat. Ugly, ugly, ugly.I am pretty sure the driver is injured. I would be very surprised if the driver was *not* somehow injured. Without the air bag, speculate on the driver's condition. So why all the gas about putting safety on shop tools? The blade brake is as close to a "do over" as you'll ever get on a cutting tool. I truly wish you don't ever suffer a bad shop day, but don't be lulled by your years of a perfect safety record to protect you; it's the same folly argument as you claim others have for only relying upon technology to save them.Seth
Seth,
Do yourself a favor and read my replies from the top. What you are doing right now is typical of much commentary these days, substituting your own narrative and selectively assigning quotes from others to support your view, whether in the positive or negative. For the last damn time, I really don't care if you want to have a safety brake or pink butterflies or a square saw blade in your table saw, it really does not rise to the level of being important to me. I do object to anyone suggesting that because I don't I am somehow negligent. Someday you might discover that people can disagree and it's not fatal, in fact it is through disagreement that our views are challenged and we either reinforce or revise. Nick Kristof said it better than I just today:"So perhaps the only way forward is for each of us to struggle on our own to work out intellectually with sparring partners whose views we deplore. Think of it as a daily mental workout analogous to a trip to the gym; if you don’t work up a sweat, it doesn’t count. "
Wood ,
Well said .
d
"I think we can reasonably conclude that the closer working space (near the blade) and lack of effective guards make this machine inherently more dangerous." Not hard to see those factors contributing to the (alledged) predominance of injury by band saw, but I suspect (Note: this is a personal opinion) that a strong factor is the seeming innocuousness of the machine. The band saw was the first stationary power tool I purchased, and a veteran woodworker friend who always freely advances his opinions on all subjects informed me that he considers it the most dangerous tool in the shop, for the simple reason that it doesn't seem all that threatening -- tends to lull operators into complacency. While I don't necessarily agree that it's the most dangerous tool, I took the implied advice to heart and keep my fingers away from the darned blade.
"You say the TS is more "creative" in the manner by which it can harm you and you feel competent on the bandsaw, thus additional safety measures are not warranted." Not warranted in my budget. Would have to draw the line at the table saw. Doesn't mean other people might not want (or need?) the added protection on other machines.
"Back to your thesis that confidence in one's safety precautions is paramount...." Not sure how you came to that interpretation of my comments. If confidence was paramount, the most confident but ignorant and careless woodworker would be safe. As to the rest of that paragraphi, I must admit, I don't get your point.
OK, let's see......oh yes, why don't people talk about "the good and bad of the working end of the saw" rather than going on and on about the safety mechanism...... I've seen quite a few threads (here and on other forums) over the past however-many years where the OP has asked specifically about the quality of the saw aside from the brake feature. They were very interested in having a safer saw, but not at the expense of using a lesser-quality saw, plain and simple. That being said, the brake mechanism of the Sawstop is quite intriguing, IMHO, and deserves being admired and gossiped about.
"Antilock brakes and traction control systems are great for the mass market but good drivers can outperform both systems...." Mmmmmm, I think we'd better take that statement of "fact" to Click and Clack Saturday morning and hear what they have to say. It could be a very entertaining conversation. I'll invite them to the forum, LOL.
I think the lesson I've learned from this particular thread is to sit out future Sawstop arguments. Ho-hum.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
If you are going to rely on Click and Clack for vehicle safety information over published research, I suggest you tune into CNBC for stock picking advice.
This University of Washington research study is the latest in a long line of studies that have found similar results.
I'll leave aside traction control systems for the time being as their purpose is primarily performance improvement across a wide range of conditions, not safety.
I tried to get that link but it would not work. You have interested me however and I googled a few studies (gov't & university..not car manufactures). Whilst the conclusions generally agree with the stated conclusion, the one criteria I found in all the ones I read was that they only documented crashes with resultant injuries. The question I did not see addressed was what about the crashes that did not involve injuries? Do you see what I am getting at? Could it be possible that antilock mechanisms were contributory in lessening the results of a crash? I will have to keep looking for that.Cheers,Peter
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
I think it's a valid and interesting angle on the subject, it would be very interesting to see any research material that probes on that as opposed to injury only accidents. UPDATE: I just edited the link to the research. For some reason I can't explain, the link works in my browser but not when I post it here.UPDATE2: okay, let's try this:UPDATE3: okay, I give up, just go to ScienceDirect and search on the title below. Antilock brakes and the risk of driver injury in a crash: A case-control study
Accident Analysis & Prevention, Volume 39, Issue 5, September 2007, Pages 995-1000Edited 3/21/2009 12:00 pm ET by Woodman41Edited 3/21/2009 12:01 pm ET by Woodman41
Edited 3/21/2009 12:02 pm ET by Woodman41
That is exactly correct. The study Woodman41 cites points out that the function of ABS is to reduce stopping distances. That's all ABS does! If you apply your brakes beyond the point that you can stop before a crash impact, ABS does no good at all.ABS is a layer of safety. If you can stop 3 feet shorter with ABS compared to without, that may be the difference between angry middle fingers and driving away v. a T-bone. Who will ever know? A non-accident is never reported.If you throw yourself on top of a Saw Stop as its operating, you'll still sustain plenty of damage before the blade drops. Saw Stop's promise isn't that you will be perfectly undamaged - the promise is the brake reduces the time the blade spends eating your body part.The ever present grinch I hear (as it relates to safety) is the hatred of goverment / lawyers / insurance companies forcing people to comply, which always leads to some indignant response like "my safety record is perfect, only dangerous people need safety devices, stop telling me what to do."Helmet laws, seat belt laws, cell phone laws, substitute your favorite.Not me. Give me a safety crutch, give me a do-over if I should fail in my obligation to keep my own self safe. I don't accept that I should damage myself because of my inattention, may it teach me a lesson. I demand to keep my lively hood.Cheers,Seth
Lastly, I think the lesson that should be learned is that when conventionally held wisdom is being challenged you should consider the opportunity to debate on facts, merits, and strength of argument rather than digging in around a prior stated belief. I have been respectful in my tone, informative in my comments, and have when possible linked to research material. I have also left open the question of what is more hazardous, the bandsaw or the tablesaw because I don't have the data and there is a variable that was brought up about multi-industry applications for the bandsaw vs. woodworking exclusively. There is a perspective in this thread that I strongly align myself with, personal liberty, but we're not really talking about mandating these safety brakes so my liberty is not being challenged. I have also stated unequivocally that I admire what Sawstop has accomplished and would buy one if I were in the market, so clearly I have no agenda directed toward Sawstop. My singular point is that perceived risk mitigation devices do not automatically correlate to actual risk mitigation, a point that is, quite frankly, impossible to disagree with both on common sense and statistical grounds.Rather than calling the Sawstop brake a safety mechanism, it's more appropriate to call it insurance that you hope you don't need but are glad you have in the event you do.
Wood,It was your reply to Forestgirl which supplied all the words I am commenting on, there are no other sources. Where did someone (or me?) accuse you of being negligent for not having a safety device on your saw? You've self-assigned that position.I am, non fatally, disagreeing with your sentiment that past safety is a guarantee of future safety. That is a core theme in your post, that exceptional people are above the need for safety devices provided to the masses; perhaps you'll explain your position of why that is.My saw is not pink with butterflies. My lawn mower is.Cheers,Seth
I know, I know
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DustyMc<!----><!---->
My, my, feeling a wee bit defensive?
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
"...unwavering in their belief that any machine not incorporating the Sawstop magic is a weapon of mass destruction...." Hogwash. It think the Sawstop is a great invention and a quality saw. That doesn't mean I want every other power tool to have such a mechanism. Basic safety consciousness makes me feel comfortable at the miter saw, the band saw and the jointer. Those tools are limited in their "creative ability" to hurt me. Not so the table saw. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Methinks that Woodman41 has an agenda here. I recall that there was another poster a while back who also HATED the inventor of the SawStop. Couldn't go on enough about his evil intentions.The rest of us go on with our lives...Cheers,Peter
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
No agenda here, other than being snarky.As for the Sawstop inventor, I have great respect for inventors who persevere and bring their creations to market. If our society encouraged creation more than arbitrage, perhaps we might not be in the mess we are in. Putting aside the safety device advantage, having inspected the cabinet saw up close it is clear that this is one of the best table saws on the market right now and the price really isn't that much more than the competition. Having said all that, I do find the idolatry that is self-evident among the most ardent fans of this company to be curious. There are a few other companies that inspire this level of fandom, Apple comes to mind, and it is almost like the adoration that turns out for a benevolent dictator. By that I mean they stop demanding of the company (the benevolent dictator) and rely exclusively on what benevolent dictator determines is best for them, maybe because the dictator represents the ideals of the subjects. It could be that I am reading too much between the lines, but consider this observation for a second, of all the posts that focus on the Sawstop how many of them talk about how good or bad the saw is? It's always about the safety device.Lastly, if I didn't already have a really nice 12" sliding table saw I would buy a Sawstop.
I know that there is a 'coping foot' for a jig saw. Why can't something similar be set up for a bandsaw?? That way the wood is always supported during a cut, even though it is a 3D shape??
Basically, get rid of the table and replace it with a 'post' with a 1 inch diameter end, and the blade running through the support post
Any metal-mashers out there???
SawdustSteve (Too much time on my hands)
Good replies. S.Maloof said he has had his share of band saw incidents over the years and that, interestingly, most of them have occurred when he is not actually shaping and concentrating. My post was intended to be specific for using the band saw in that way to naturally sculpt in relative safety. There was a much more subtle point being made in my very last sentence. The "SawStop" technology in the table saw space is fantastic but I wish it was available to be licensed by all manufacturers at reasonable cost so that buyers (who choose a saw based on a whole bunch of reasons not just safety) could select the "SawStop" option for a few hundred dollars more.
The sawstop technology is (or was) available for license. So far, no manufacturer has stepped forward due to legal advice that if you put it only on one machine, you open yourself to liability if someone buys another of your machines without the system and is injured.
Dick
While that speculation is widely held (and very logical) it should also be said that we are not privy to the licensing terms that Sawstop was (is) demanding.
Hi,I'm prone to flinging this bit of rhubarb around when someone complains about nefarious cabals imposing their safety screed on machinery that's worked perfectly well, as is, for decades: Would you require your family to drive around in a car that did NOT have anti-lock brakes? Perhaps no air bag? Remember how much the auto industry fought these now common place safety items?We, all of us, know safety is a multi layered process. It starts and ends with the operator, but in between those points, there are opportunities for other influences. Steve Gass's brake invention is one such influence, something good for the customer.A benefit of a missing finger is, if commanded to stick it elsewhere, you gleefully demonstrate the impossibility of compliance. But there can't be more than that.Cheers,Seth
Thanks Dick.This thread definitely took a major detour after the first few replies, so I'll bring it back.S.Maloof uses a band saw to "sculpt" a 3d form but because the timber is held in his hands off the table (except at the point of cut) then it is potentially dangerous. He clearly warns others not to use the band saw in the way he does. If "SawStop" (or equivalent) technology could be developed that took away the danger for this "sculpting" operation on a band saw then that has to be good news for other chair makers who are possibly using angle grinders and the like only because of S.Maloof's safety advice and what common sense also tells them.I guess sooner or later another manufacturer is bound to offer a "SawStop" type feature either as standard or as an affordable option. Then there will be a third, and soon after that, everyone will incorporate the feature as competitive advantage bears downs.Me ? I like to sit back on occasion and pick my nose with a digit of my choosing .... it just wouldn't be as serene with a steel hook.Kym
Not only does the prototype brake work on the blade, it works on the video-player too! Couldn't get it to run a 2nd time.
I can understand if it's true that there are more band saw accidents than table saw accidents, but IMHO these injured people must really not be paying attention. While the table saw has a variety of animated ways of attacking you, the band saw is pretty straightforward and it would require some serious effort on the user's part to cut off a finger.
Bandsaws might lead to more accidents in total because they're not restricted to just woodworkers. Might be easy for a butcher hacking away all day to mistake one piece of meat for another. Kind of reminds me of the butcher in "Under Milk Wood," who walks down the street "sucking a finger, not his own."
Jim
That said, the only woodworking accident that I've had that required sutures was with a bandsaw that wasn't plugged in. I was adjusting the blade tracking and spining the wheels by hand. Sliced my thumb nearly to the bone. I suspect that the rumor that the Woodslicer blade is a meat saw blade is true ;).
I was lucky enough not to have to leave the house to get the sutures; my wife was kind enough to do them. The funniest part of it was that she actually felt sorry for me for a minute while she was working on me -- until she said that it didn't hurt her, just me, and then she was OK with that. ROFLOL.
So, pay attention, even when it's not plugged in.
There is risk involved when you desire to execute a task that is in your mind hazardous. Best to find an alternate way or step away from the idea altogether.
Maloof has developed a technique that has been successful for him. If he has been doing it for 60 years maybe it isn't all that tough - just takes practice. Others have copied the style without issue.
I am not in favor of developing technology so we can perform unsafe acts. What if the technology fails? I have seen lots of hot dogs activate a Sawstop. I have not seen any hands being used in the demos.
I'm ok with the Sawstop model although I prefer to rely on my strong sense of self preservation when in the shop, in my car etc.
These technology solutions will foster a certain level of complacency.
Don
That's a good point about becoming complacent with safety features. Honestly though, when I'm using my SS I never really think about the brake system. Having a blade spinning that fast demands concentration even if you're 99% sure it can't hurt you. I'd say it's similar to gun safeties - I trust my rifle won't fire when it's on but i'm sure not going to point it at anything I don't want a hole through. That isn't always the case with people, though.On a side note (and this doesn't prove that it will always work, of course) but I heard the SS inventor went on a BBC Discovery show and used his finger to stop the blade with some high speed cameras filming. Haven't been able to find the video online though.
Discovery Channel had a show called Time Warp, where high speed cameras slow down events such as bursting soap bubbles, rifle rounds, drums, etc. Good fun. Steve Gass appeared on the show with a Saw Stop, demonstrating the brake both with the usual stunt hot dog, and then, his actual finger tip.Google for the video.It is *no* surprise Steve didn't just jam his hand into the spinning blade - that's not the promise of Saw Stop. That he *did*, on camera, offer his unprotected fingertip to his own technology, is gutsy.Cheers,Seth
It's my understanding that the greatest danger in Sam's technique is not blade to finger contact per se, but rather workpiece and hand being slammed hard to the table when the blade binds.
Brian
Hi BrianWhat you say makes sense although what happens immediately after the piece and hand is slammed into the table, particularly if the blade suddenly unbinds, might be another story.Sam recalls in the video that his accidents have mostly happened when he is not working. The last one, not so long ago, was when he was leaving the shop and on the way out, picked up a small off-cut on the band saw table and flicked it away. During the flicking motion, his hand touched the blade and he took 21 stitches across his knuckles and lost part of his thumb. He said "it was stupid, but that is how accidents happen - stupidity". I'm sure that S.Maloof doesn't class himself as stupid per se, but, like all of us, does do stupid things from time to time.Anybody who thinks their common sense will never desert them for an fleeting instance of stupidity at some point, have, as we say in Australia, a kangaroo loose in the top paddock. For an optional few hundred bucks I'd take any SS (or equivalent) technology as a partial insurance for any lapses of reason on my part or just plain accidents out of my direct control.Kym
Kym,
To me common sense is but one aspect of the whole safety consciousness in support of/ in addition to safety devices. Trying to get that last piece of wood through the saw and you're exhausted, had a few too many at the bar, major distractions in the woodshop.
Around here we say, "They've got bats in their belfry".
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
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