I thought it might be fun to share my experiences with my new sawstop. Might be helpful to those who are considering this major purchase.
Agonized over the purchase for about a year. Have been using a jet contractor saw which has served me well for about 5 yrs. Alot of things to like about the jet and some not to like; just felt it was time to upgrade.
Purchased sawstop from burns tools in Fall River, ma. No breaks on price or shipping. All controlled by sawstop. They delivered it to driveway while I was at work to afford the darn thing. Considered various ways to get the behemoth to my basement. Finally decided to hire a local moving company who knows what they are doing to do it. Cost me 175. Money well spent.
Assembled the saw yesterday. Made the wiring connections. Does not ship with a cord. Must wire into terminal box and run cable to 220 outlet. Instructions very clear. No problem with this. Assemble one cast iron wing to saw. VERY heavy. I held it in place while my wife threaded bolts. She was not crazy about this but a good sport none the less. Attached rails. Once again, heavy as hell. But really not a problem. Everything fit perfectly. Attach and calibrate very heavy fence. not a problem. But get this: After all of the above, time to install the blade. A sawstop blade comes with the saw which I’m not crazy about- will change that out. So I grab these mammoth arbor wrenches (you will not believe the size and heft of these things) to take the arbor bolt off and the wrench does not fit the arbor bolt. Very strange. It’s close but just a little too tight for the arbor. So I get out my metal file and take some material off the wrench. Not a big deal. Now it fits.
Popping the blade guard and riving knife on and off is a snap. 10 seconds tops. So now its time to see if it works and how it runs. Very exciting. Power switch on. The red and green lights alternate for a few seconds and finally stop at green (indicates safety brake is operational). Ok, turn it on. Have blade guard on. Runs like a thoroughbread. Smooth, quiet, no vibration whatsover. Do some test cuts. Cuts and runs like a champ.
Other than the safety brake, one of the reasons I bought the saw was the hope that the dust shroud and narrow profile blade guard would minimize the above table dust. It does, but there is still dust. If you are hoping no dust, no luck. Always going to be some. But it is greatly minimized.
So thats it. If anyone has questions, please ask. So far, so good. I will be using the blade guard most of the time and I do have the piece of mind that should an accident occur, I will not lose my fingers. One cannot put a price on that. PMM
Replies
Did you say that you had a wrench that did not fit? I know this is a relatively small issue but It is something that should NOT happen. I point this out because if this was someone talking about a delta saw (or a jet etc.) it would have started off with talking about how the wrench did not fit and how this is a sign of how bad the quality has gotten to.
And while we are talking about it what is the point of a heavy massive wrench?
Glad to here that the rest of the saw is nice an solid and went together well.
Doug
If you contact Sawstop they have great customer service, don't be suprised if the head man himself takes care of you.
you'd be surprised the cheap blade that comes with it is okay. And after the first "accidental" trip you'll be glad it was on the saw and not a Forrest WWII.
Actually the blade that comes with the SawStop makes great cuts. I'm still using it instead of switching to my Forrest WWII.
My wrenches fit out of the box.
As to their customer service many companies can take a lesson from these guys.
I found that the square tube the rip fence rides on was warped by 1/16".
I could never get the fence to slide smoothly on the tube.
I called them and talked to tech support and they sent me a new tube now questions with a return label in the packing slip bag.
The new tube is dead straight and my fence is much happier.Kevin
I think I have the same problem...
I purchased my saw in March, w/ the 52" rails. Put on the cast extention wings, made them perfectly flat with my 12" and 36" steel straightedge (accurate to .001). However, when I installed the fence, it pulled the wings out of allignment. I'm guessing about 1/16th of an inch. Is my experience the same as yours?
That sounds like one of the rails is a little tweaked.
Mine are dead straight. It was only the square tube the fence rides on that was warped and it was warped front to back.If your tube is warped up and down then it might have an effect on the rails/wings.
Take the tube off and stretch a line from end to end on all four sides and see if you have a gap between the string and tube on any of the sides.
If it is they will replace it.
"Does not ship with a cord. Must wire into terminal box and run cable to 220 outlet. Instructions very clear. No problem with this".. PMmatty
****
Now that tells me you don't get your shorts in a wad easily, PM. After all... who in their right mind would think that a machine that only cost $4000 + would come with a power cord? ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Just kidding you as I got a big chuckle out of that for whatever reason as I was not aware and if you hadn't mentioned it.. probably never would be as the only saws I can afford, the blade is turned with a hand crank. :>)
Enjoy your new toy...
Sarge..
You see that (no cord) a lot of late on anything using 220. This is because the new 220 outlets use a differnt pin layout then the older ones do. IIRC it has another wire in the set up. So if you are plugging into an old existing line you would need one plug, while if you where plugging into the new outlets in my place (installed a year or so back) you would need a different plug. This came up while wireing the oven. (and when we went to put 220 in the shop)
Doug
Thank you Doug.. as I was not aware of that information either. The good news for me is that I have two 220 V lines with machines that have power cords to match. And it is not likely I will ever need another large machine as all seem to be in place after all these years.
But.. that info might come in handy with a new stove.. dryer.. etc. I am also curious as to why it would have been changed to another pin style after all these years? I'm sure there is a reason.. but it doesn't appear to be an obvious one to me?
Regards...
Sarge..
For a long time, high-current 240V outlets have been wired with just three wires, two hot and one ground/neutral. The ground/neutral is the problem: With a 240V induction motor, there is no neutral current, and the ground wire is just a ground wire, and a three-wire circuit works fine. But with household appliances like ranges/ovens and electric clothes dryers, the third wire is used to carry a small neutral current, and while that used to be allowed by codes, it no longer is (and it would instantly trip a ground-fault circuit breaker, if one were installed). You'd create the same situation if you were to wire in a 120V workstation light into one leg of the incomining 240V circuit.
So, while I think it's technically still okay to use a three-wire outlet for a dedicated circuit where there is guaranteed to be no neutral current, a lot of electricians will wire all household heavy-gauge 240V circuits with four wires, just to be on the safe side. (And it's possible that some local codes require it, too.)
-Steve
Steve,
I really appreciate you. You are a source of information on a wide range of subjects. Thanks for your willingness to educate. Harry
Following the path of least resistance makes rivers and men crooked.
As far as I know and according to the inspector when my house was built a little more then a year ago. The current Michigan building code (and it is based on the IBC that is becoming defacto stand in the US) requires 4 wires on ALL outlets that are 220. That is why I have it on my dedicated lines to my compressor and to my saw. As well as the oven. Now for some reason the one that goes out to the camper (so I can charge it up before going and test everything) is the same plug it has been for years. I do not recall how many wires it used but it is a heavier circuit then the saw/compressor/oven is. (I want to say 30A vs 20A, but do not hold me to it)
So in short if you put in new you may have to use 4 wire (talk to local code people) if you are doing existing it is most likely 3 wire. So wire in which ever cord you need.
Doug
Thanks Steve... with that info in mind, if any of the local electrical police boy's show up and set foot in my drive-way... I'm shooting first and asking questions latter. :>)
Regards...
Sarge..
>> For a long time, high-current 240V outlets have been wired with just three wires, two hot and one ground/neutral. The ground/neutral is the problem: With a 240V induction motor, there is no neutral current, and the ground wire is just a ground wire, and a three-wire circuit works fine. But with household appliances like ranges/ovens and electric clothes dryers, the third wire is used to carry a small neutral current, and while that used to be allowed by codes, it no longer is (and it would instantly trip a ground-fault circuit breaker, if one were installed). You'd create the same situation if you were to wire in a 120V workstation light into one leg of the incomining 240V circuit.Steve,I'm a little confused. Are you saying above that four wires are required for all 240 volt circuits? If so, what is the the the third voltage carrying wire used for? All my 240 volt machines have only two voltage carrying wires from the plug to the switch and then to the motor. The plugs are three bladed. My understanding is that for appliances that require both 240 volts and 120 volts for control circuits and motors (electric driers, ovens, etc)then the third wire is neutral used to create 120 volts. For these devices a four blade plug is required.Howie.........
"Are you saying above that four wires are required for all 240 volt circuits?"
No. For a "pure" 240V load, like an induction motor, you don't need a neutral wire (there's no place to connect it in such a situation, anyway). But if you were to make the load "impure," such as by adding a 120V lamp, then there would be a neutral current, and you would need a fourth (neutral) wire.
In the olden days, you could sometimes get away with running that neutral current in the ground wire, but no longer.
-Steve
From what my inspector said (take it for what it is worth) the 4th wire is to provide the same effect as the 3 wire in 110 (when you really only need 2 wires) this is a wire that can be used as a ground only. As for the splitting to 110 I do not understand that. I have 110 if I take wire A and run it against wire C, or if I take wire B and run it against wire C, I only get 220 if I run them against each other. And just to make this more of a point My range (and a lot of other new ranges) uses a 110 and a 220.
As I said according to what I have been told ALL new lines put in in Michigan will be 4 wires.
Doug
"From what my inspector said (take it for what it is worth) the 4th wire is to provide the same effect as the 3 wire in 110 (when you really only need 2 wires) this is a wire that can be used as a ground only."
That's correct. The code requirement is based on the possibility that you may want to operate both 120V and 240V loads from the same circuit.
A 120V circuit has two current-carrying wires: a "hot" wire and a neutral wire. A pure 240V circuit also has two current-carrying wires: a hot wire (the same as the 120V hot wire), and another hot wire that is 180° out of phase with the first hot wire.
So, in either case you need three wires total: two current-carrying wires and one ground wire. But wait, there's more! What if you want to operate 120V and 240V loads from one circuit? There are now three current-carrying wires: the first hot wire, the neutral wire, and the other hot wire. That's when you need a four-wire circuit, for the three current-carrying wires plus a ground. Here's a diagram that shows how everything is connected:
View Image
If you eliminate either the 120V load or the 240V load, you're back down to needing only three wires.
-Steve
OK I see what you are saying, and I think we are saying the same thing but getting to it from differnt ways. And you very well may be correct that the idea of the 4th wire is just in case you may need it. So once again the standards are just being updated to cover some thing that you may or may not ever nead.
Of course if the did not update the standard, then they would have no reason to sell the new book, do the new update training and all that jazz.
Doug
Well, kinda sorta. The 4th wire is the equipment ground (green or bare copper). Two wires are current conductors (usually red & black) with approx. 220 v. potential between them, and the third is the neutral conductor. The neutral conductor is equivalent to the white wire in a normal 110v. circuit. There is 110v. potential between it and either of the two current carrying conductors. The neutral conductor can be current carrying (like pretty much any time the tool/appliance is "on") and can thus also pose a potential shock hazard.
In older editions of the code, appliances such as dryers and ovens would be grounded to a separate ground, like a water pipe, to protect the user from exposure to current in the event that there was a problem causing the case of the tool/appliance to become charged. So, in those cases, 3-wire (or even 2-wire if only 220v., and not 110v., was needed) cables were used -- the extra "wire" was there, but was separate from the power cable. Those applications are "grandfathered in" under the new code -- i.e., you don't have to remove any installations that complied with the old code. But, for all new installations, you need an equipment ground. It's main function is to cause the circuit breaker to trip if any portion of the tool/appliance case becomes charged since that causes a "short circuit", or overload, condition. In the case of some electronic equipment (like the "brains" of the SawStop, I'd wager) sensitive electronic components depend on a true ground, like the equipment ground, to protect against current surges and static charges that can fry them.
Cords are not supplied since many times, large tools/appliances are hardwired directly into a box. Also, if you had the circuit installed under the old code, it's grandfathered in, so you might use a 3-prong plug instead of a 4-prong plug. For this same reason, if you buy a dryer or an oven, no cord is supplied. Otherwise, you'd be paying for a cord that you would stand a pretty good chance of throwing out since it would not fit your outlet.
As for the 4th wire being required "just in case you may need it", it's a ground. A safety precaution. It's a good idea to have it even if you may never need it. Just like the blade brake on the SawStop. ;-)
If it was me (and it ain't), I wouldn't want a 220v. plug in an exposed location (like in a shop) where the plug could be partially pulled and the prongs exposed. Ouch! Unless I needed the saw to be mobile, I'd hard wire it to a disconnect box.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
"I wouldn't want a 220v. plug in an exposed location (like in a shop) where the plug could be partially pulled and the prongs exposed."
Twist-lock is your friend.
-Steve
"Twist-lock is your friend"
Wellll, Yes and no. I have twist-lock and I like them but oh those machines that are on wheels - I sure have to remember that they are tied to an electric cord. I've not had a big problem yet but have spanked myself several times for not thinking of them first.
So... how is the 4 wire 240V line wired at the panel? The two hot leads are easy, but the other two...? The cold water pipe "earth" is commonly used for antenna grounds, telephone equipment, etc. How is it implemented for the 4 wire system you describe?Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
The two hot leads go to a double breaker, the neutral (white) wire goes to the same bus bar that all of the other neutrals attach to, and the ground wire goes to the ground bar. Every modern panel has two bars, one for attaching grounds and one for attaching the neutrals.John White
Got it.Thanks,Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Steve,I'm having a bit of trouble merging what you told Sarge with what little I know about wiring. I've since lost the directions, but last year, I put in a new dryer that was set up to work with either a 3 or 4 wire circuit. I may remember incorrectly, but it seemed to me that the difference in the circuits was the existence of the bare ground wire conductor in the new 220v circuits. I thought the older circuits just had the 3 insulated conductors & no bare ground. Does that jive with what you said??
Yes, it does. It's all rather confusing because of the grandfathering of existing 3-wire circuits, and because the terminology is a bit inconsistent.
Old way: This is a 3-wire circuit, and the third wire (that is, besides the two hot wires) serves as both neutral and ground. This was allowed in the old codes, but is no longer permitted in new construction or remodels.
Semi-old way: This is also a 3-wire circuit, but the third wire is strictly a neutral (i.e., current-carrying) conductor. Equipment is grounded via a separate (fourth) wire. I believe this was intended as a stop-gap measure, once people came to the realization that using a single wire for both neutral and ground wasn't really very safe, but hadn't yet figured out what to do about it. It doesn't seem to have really caught on; installations of this sort appear to be uncommon. You can still do it, if you have a three wire circuit that you can't or don't want to replace, along with a convenient grounding point. Your dryer installation instructions should have contained some info on how to do this; I just looked at the manual for my Whirlpool dryer, and it's listed under "Optional 3-wire connection." This is also no longer allowed in new construction/remodels.
New way: This is a 4-wire circuit, with explicit, separate neutral and ground conductors. While the ground wire is often bare, that isn't a requirement. If it isn't bare, it will have green or green/yellow insulation.
-Steve
Thanks for the clarification!
In short it is kind of like going from 2 wire 110 to 3 wire 110. To way over simplify the new wire is for all intents the same as the old wire but is a redundent back up if something goes wrong. If nothing ever goes wrong it will never be used. If something does go wrong you will be very happy it is available to take the load do that you dont take the load.
Doug
Sarge,
He must have ordered the CORDLESS version!Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
I dont want to have to pick up and move the battery for THAT cordless tool.
Doug
A WW machine is a lot safer without a power cord.. probably another safety feature "first". Some are just visionary thinkers as some of us simple minded folks sometimes just don't get the big picture. :>)
Regards...
Sarge..
A WW machine is a lot safer without a power cord..........
That explains why it takes me so long to rip a board on my tablesaw.
"A WW machine is safer without a power cord".
Probably the safest if it is buried in the ground or hauled away.
Congrats on the SawStop! and thanks for the report. In the spirit of those who preceeded me (hi, Sarge), I'll ask one question, re "Runs like a thoroughbread." Would that be white or wheat? ROFL!! Sorry, just had to.
I'm envious, hope you really enjoy the saw.
There you go with that "rye" humor.The Professional Termite
"Would that be white or wheat?"I Wonder. :)
BruceT
"I Wonder. :)" Too clever by half! ROFL!!!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Sounds like you're happy. I might go for one someday.
You bring up another point. Can you explain to me (venting here) why my 19 dollar toaster comes with a cord and plug, and a 4000 dollar machine doesn't?
The toaster is 110 V and the bank that gave it to you for $19 to open the new account (used to be free.. but nothing is free anymore) wanted to impress you with it having a cord. But... now that you have opened the account... probably several guys with grey suits are lurking in the bushes around your house waiting for the opportunity to get their power cord back. ha.. ha... ha..ha.. ha..
Sorry blewcrowe.. my only excuse is I have just returned from the vibration end of a Sawzall in the shop. I'm "all shook up" so to speak and I couldn't help myself.. If you don't believe that.. would you believe the devil made me do it? :>)
Regards...
Sarge..
I just hate it when something is lurking in my bush.
"Can you explain to me (venting here) why my 19 dollar toaster comes with a cord and plug, and a 4000 dollar machine doesn't?"
For the same reason that your clothes dryer and electric range also don't come with power cords: The cord and plug for your toaster costs $0.79, and virtually everyone who buys said toaster finds that the cord and plug are adequate. A cord for a multi-HP stationary power tool costs a couple of dollars a foot, plus another $10-20 for a plug, and no matter what cord and plug they were to put on, it would likely not be appropriate for your particular situation. You might not even need a cord and plug at all--in a commercial setting, stationary equipment is almost invariably hardwired.
-Steve
That's a point. Makes me wonder ..................
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"Yes Mr. Blew, this here new Lexus comes without tires, obviously, because we've no idea what kind of conditions you'll be driving in."
"Yessir, these five hunnert dollar Ferragamos come without shoestrings. Why? Well, because how do you expect us to know what keller you'd prefer."
"Here are the keys to your new home! Oh. Why no front door? Well, ya know, we didn't know if you wanted it to swing left, swing right, or mebbe you didn't want a front door at all. Ya know, everybody's different."
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I mean, fer cryin out loud, it's a four thousand dollar saw. Give me a freakin five foot cord with a three prong plug. I think woodworking is the only activity I've ever been involved with where what you buy comes intentionally dysfunctional or incomplete right out of the box.
Rant off.
I'll bet that if they included the cord and plug, they'd get a lot more complaints from the people who just had to cut it off. This is nothing specific to woodworking--all big electrical equipment is the same way.
-Steve
Lets not forget that you cant simply cut it off and put a new end on it. The wire (3 vs 4) tend to connect inside the item one way for 3 and another way for 4. And this holds true for 220 stoves, cook tops, and pretty much anything else that you put in a house that uses 220. Of course in the professional side of the world, pretty much the entire professional kitchen and those fancy cases used in deli's and such all come with out a cord.
Lets be honest if they gave you a cord and it did not fit, and you cut it off and tried to wire it up to the other style and messed up you would sue them big time. I have to think that the lawyers prefer it this way. Now the owner / electrician is responsible for getting what he needs.
Doug
$8K bikes come without pedals
Ya gotta be kidding....!
One would think they would make custom bike footwear for that price.Cheers,Peter(who doesn't bike)
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
Edited 5/6/2008 8:41 pm by PeterDurand
It is the same reason that 230 volt tools don't come with cords, the maker would be guessing as to the interface.
There are multiple competing pedal systems for both road & mountain bikes.
Thanks for the info. But, man, 8K for a bike. Wow.Cheers,Peter
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
If it makes you feel any better $2K bikes usually don't have pedals either...
Come to think of it Frank, you're right. None of the last four Harleys I bought had pedals. (And THAT'S a GOOD thing!)
Oh I don't know with the vibration and noise a Hog makes maybe peddling it would be a good thing.
Doug
Are you kidding? I got the one with the extry vibratory option. <g>
So you use it to settle concrete in forms just by driving by? I mean man I can feel the "Vibe" from a Hog when I am in my car.
Doug
I never thought of that option. Mebbe I could start a new business. HOG Pounders. Concrete pounders and teeth looseners extraordinaire.
blew,
You just don't get it do ya. It's the new mentallity don't ya know - called job creation.
Ya see here's how it works: Take a law that 1 lawyer can figger out. Make it so complex that now it takes 3 lawyers to wade through the BS. There - I just created 2 new jobs.
Now everyone take my lead and apply this to everything and the economy is all rosy. Besides you aint posed ta know nothin bout machinry!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob, if this concept ever makes it to Washington, it might take hold.
Dude,
That's where I got it from. Sorry to ruin your day!
I still love ya man!
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 5/7/2008 4:27 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Congratulations! I love mine.
On mine, everything fit well, although there is a minute warp in the wings so that the wings are just barely below the main table in the middle (they are flush in the front and back. I can feel it, but the difference is less than the narrowest feeler gauge I have. Not worth the effort to fuss over. I've also learned that the side table will sag if you don't use the support leg they provide. (I originally didn't because I have my saw on a mobile base, and the leg wouldn't reach the ground by itself.)
I used your method to install the first wing. For the second, I edge jointed two 2x4s, clamped them to the top of the table, and then clamped the wing up onto the 2x4s. I was able to make small adjustments before tightening the clamps and bolting on the wing. I highly recommend the second approach.
By the way, it's tempting to just use the riving knife, since then I can lower the blade and have a flat surface for assembly until I can build a new workbench, but dust collection (and safety) is much better with the full guard. Also, it's easy to forget to close the shroud when putting in/taking out the guard, which is a good way to accumulate sawdust in the cabinet.
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