The original saws thread was absolutely fascinating and valuable. However, it has gotten a bit long and has followed a path into saw sharpening and historical practices. This has been interesting in its own right, but there are some basic questions about western handsaws that still pop up that might be easier in a new thread. Here are a few:
1) Is it possible to get as good a surface from a handsaw as from a good quality circular power saw blade?
2) What are the relative advantages and disadvantages to length in panel saws and other long saws, and is there a difference in the desirable length for crosscut and ripping?
3) Tooth count — in general, more teeth equals finer, slower cut? Still, I see in the other threads that some tooth geometry and count can lead to clogging. Are there some broad guidelines as to tooth count and set for a) softwood, b) hardwood, and c) fineness of cut and finish?
4) What about width of blade? what are the arguments each way, relative to task?
5) When is breasting an advantage?
6) How important is a tapered blade in a long saw?
7) What are the relative advantages of straight handlss vs “pistol” handles in dovetail saws?
8) What makes a “bad” saw; one that knowledgible people would avoid?
Replies
I don't fancy myself any type pf hand sawing expert, but I've used them a fair amount, so I'll give you my 2 pence.
1) Is it possible to get as good a surface from a handsaw as from a good quality circular power saw blade?
No. My Forrest chopmaster in my Makita SCMS makes cross cuts that are practically polished. My Forrest WWII in my table saw makes rips that are glue ready. A plane is necessary to get the cuts to these points following handsawing in my experience.
2) What are the relative advantages and disadvantages to length in panel saws and other long saws, and is there a difference in the desirable length for crosscut and ripping?
Length is generally dictated by throw (how far your arm moves the saw on a stroke). Panel saws are typically shorter so they fit in tool boxes. ;-)
3) Tooth count -- in general, more teeth equals finer, slower cut? Still, I see in the other threads that some tooth geometry and count can lead to clogging. Are there some broad guidelines as to tooth count and set for a) softwood, b) hardwood, and c) fineness of cut and finish?
I think it's hard to generalize for all jobs. But the general rules give you a good sense - fewer teeth for ripping than crosscutting and what you already said about more teeth equal finer finish but slower cut.
4) What about width of blade? what are the arguments each way, relative to task?
A wider blade is useful for long straight cuts. A thinner blade is useful for curves.
5) When is breasting an advantage?
None of my saws are particularly breasted. So I won't try to guess.
6) How important is a tapered blade in a long saw?
My tapered saws are more pleasurable to use as they bind less and just feel more refined as you saw with them.
7) What are the relative advantages of straight handlss vs "pistol" handles in dovetail saws?
Personal preference.
8) What makes a "bad" saw; one that knowledgible people would avoid?
Not being good. It's easier to say what a good saw should include than list the many ways an inferior saw may fall short. The list would include - good steel (flexible but strong and that holds a sharpening) - good tooth geometry and set - tapered or well backed as appropriate - comfortable handle, etc.
On blade width, you commented on curves, and Testtest commented on blade thickness (which is also "width," of course). I was really trying to get at a vatiation on "width" the way you took it. Here is another attempt:Speaking purely of long saws and not back or bow or other specialty saws, there are saws that are deeper, if you will, with the flat of the blade going down some inches below the handle, and having a wide toe as measured the same way. Then there are saws like the basic carpenter saws we all grew up around, where the blade only goes a short distance below tha handle and the toe is narrow.What would be the rationale for these differences?
The narrower saws are, of course, lighter. Like Disston's skew back saws and those designed for ship building, narrower blades can do a nice job of cutting subtle curves.
Conversely, I think wider saws are more rigid in the kerf which can be an aid in straight cutting. The "jigging" effect of the foregoing kerf can also be capitalized upon more as the wider saw has a larger reference area so to speak.
Others with more experience can likely put a finer point on it, but these are my personal observations.
1) Is it possible to get as good a surface from a handsaw as from a good quality circular power saw blade? -
NO - with a good power saw and a good blade you can get perfect shiny surface. hand saw cuts that are visible are usually shot on a shootingboard afterward.
2) What are the relative advantages and disadvantages to length in panel saws and other long saws, and is there a difference in the desirable length for crosscut and ripping?
In theory at any rate the longer the saw the faster the cutting. However in practice longer saws take a little getting used to and if the saw is too long it will need more clearance and a longer arms to take advantage of it. In general for standard ripping and cutting of panels 26" length is pretty normal. But 28" rip saws have their fans (just at the fringe of what a 5' - 10" guy like me can handle). I own a 36" crosscut saw that looks cool but it way to long for me.
on a saw bench the 26" works nicely but for more precise cuts, escpecially large joinery, or more typcially cutting to length on a bench stop 16-22" panel saws seem to be more usefull - that is more comfortable in use and the stroke length is approgriate for a horizontal cut.
Of course there are exceptions all over the map.
3) Tooth count -- in general, more teeth equals finer, slower cut? Still, I see in the other threads that some tooth geometry and count can lead to clogging. Are there some broad guidelines as to tooth count and set for a) softwood, b) hardwood, and c) fineness of cut and finish?
more teeth equal a finer, faster cut but finer teeth mean smaller gullets so the limit is how long a cut the finer teeth can make. You can extend the length of cut with careful filing of a gullet. The tooth profile is also very important on how the saw cuts. You can get a little crazy on fine tuning everything but in general most big rip saws are 26" x 4 1/2 ppt and the crosscuts are 26" x 8 or 10ppt. I was recently ripping 6/4 beech and each stroke of the ripsaw cut 3/16" (this was with a modern pax handsaw that has been poorly resharpeend by myself awhile ago). I am sure if I had fancier saw, with sharper teeth I would have cut faster but I only keep 1 long ripsaw for actual use I am sure Adam which is much taller than I, does more sawing, and more sharpening gets far better results - but 3/16 I don't think is bad and is reasonably fast.
4) What about width of blade? what are the arguments each way, relative to task?
Thinner sawstock means less material removed means less work. Thinner material also means the saw might be harder to work without bending. A wider blade means it should be easier to hold and sight square, but you need to more move steel at each stroke and support the saw more in angled cutting.
5) When is breasting an advantage?
In theory is makes more teeth contact the work so you saw more efficiently. I have no idea if their is practically worth worrying about. (I have both types and never really noticed a difference)
6) How important is a tapered blade in a long saw?
Disston made saws with taper and no set for running in dry hardwood. There is also a theory that the early (up to about 1810-1820) tapered saws were tapered because the steel stock at the time wasn't very regular and tapering solved any problems with irregularly rolled steel. Tapering at it's best is only a few thou of an inch and in general most saws have lots of set so it probably makes no difference. (back saws as a group were never tapered ). That being said with hardwood where a narrow set means narrow kerf and less work, tapering might be more useful. I used to think that tapered saws were easier to control when sawing, As I get more experice sawing I'm not sure if that's true.
7) What are the relative advantages of straight handlss vs "pistol" handles in dovetail saws?
I Learned on a stright handle. I used to think straigh handled saws were easier to learn on. Now I think a good open handle is much easier to use and less fatiguing
8) What makes a "bad" saw; one that knowledgible people would avoid?
A dull saw of any geometry.
You know, this may be close to heresy in this crowd, but I am beginning to think that saws are inherently as interesting as planes, and more so that chisels. Yes, I know that planes have all those interesting adjustments, and make long sexy shavings -- and I like planes very much. I also like chisels and know that there is a lot to a chisel and that planes and chisels are both critical tools. And, let me say that although I am easing into cabinet-grade skills, I am a tool user who also likes tools, and NOT a collector.All that said, there is much about saws that is interesting, little known, and worth study.Back to topic -- I, too am spoiled by very fine edges from good power saw blades. The rougher results with hand saws suggest that cuts should be made just outside the line in order to allow room for planing, rather than trying to split the line. Is this true?Related to that Testtest says that Disston once made a tapered crosscut saw with no set. Based on the discussions in these saw threads, I would speculate that such a strategy would yield not only a narrower kerf, but also a smoother cut. Does it really work this way in practice?And, to the comments about dull saws (dare I mention sharpening in this thread?), is there a way to tell if a saw is sharp or dull by looking at it? Adam somewhere mentioned little white caps -- dulled teeth -- but are there other ways, and what about a saw that has not seen use for a while and has browned a bit?
Edited 3/5/2007 1:33 pm ET by Joe Sullivan
1) Is it possible to get as good a surface from a handsaw as from a good quality circular power saw blade?
With a crosscut you can get pretty close with a steady hand and an expertly sharpened saw. When you are ripping you'll need to use your jointer if you are edge glueing. My question to you is, how often do you need that "power saw quality surface". Most of the time that surface is hidden. If you knife your lines and cut to them, it won't be often that you have to do cleanup.
2) What are the relative advantages and disadvantages to length in panel saws and other long saws, and is there a difference in the desirable length for crosscut and ripping?
With a longer saw you have more teeth, they will stay sharper longer. On the other hand a very fine tooth, long saw will take a long time to sharpen.
3) Tooth count -- in general, more teeth equals finer, slower cut? Still, I see in the other threads that some tooth geometry and count can lead to clogging. Are there some broad guidelines as to tooth count and set for a) softwood, b) hardwood, and c) fineness of cut and finish?
You should try and get ahold of Adam's article in PWW.
4) What about width of blade? what are the arguments each way, relative to task?
Wider blade equals a stiffer saw, you can put a little more muscle behind it.
5) When is breasting an advantage?
I'm not so sure about this one. Most of the older saws (not back type saws) I see have this and all of the timber type saws too. My theory is that it is easier to move your arms in an arc rather than a straight line and the breasting compliments this. Sounds good anyway!
6) How important is a tapered blade in a long saw?
No taper means more set in your teeth to get clearance so your blade doesn't bind. More set means you cut a larger saw kerf with more effort.
7) What are the relative advantages of straight handlss vs "pistol" handles in dovetail saws?
Pistol handles are more comfortable to me.
8) What makes a "bad" saw; one that knowledgible people would avoid?
A dull saw, a poorly sharpened saw, poorly shaped handle, good saw for the wrong purpose.
Paul Dzioba
7) What are the relative advantages of straight handlss vs "pistol" handles in dovetail saws?
At one of Rob Cosmans woodshow seminars he suggested that a pistol grip aids in aligning the saw blade for vertical cuts. The idea being that you of course can intuitivly hold your hand in a vertical position, which then translates to the blade being vertical. With a straight grip, there is no reference from the handle to the saw blade thus no reference to your hand...
Take it for what it's worth... my personal opinion is that for beginer the psitol grip may work out better, but it shouldn't really matter in the long run. Keeping the saw sharp is more important in my opinion.
Joe,
I'm going to throw a kink in this, because I am a convert to japan style saws, and find them superior to western saw in almost all applications. I say almost all, because there may be some time that I would use one, but I can't think of it. I have a western(push) saw with japan style teeth, and I have used that once or twice, I'm not sure why. Other wise I use pull saws exclusively. I will say that I pretty well don't ever rip by hand, but I cross cut often by hand. The cut finish is usually glue ready, and very rarely do I have to plane it. I realize your questions are relating to western saws, but these are saws, and are growing in popularity.
Pedro
Pedro:I have always heard good things about Japanse saws. However, so little has been said, relatively speaking, about western saws, that I thought to enquire further about them. Must say, it looks as if the western design has been given short shrift, probably in part because of inferior, mass-produced saws, and partly because as Adam says, the skills died out.I don't have any idea if Adam is right about his early 19th century date for the decline in skills, or the reasons, but clearly, the full range of western saw skills is scarce these days. I would speculate that this is a big part of the reason for the move to Japanses saws. Yes, the pull stroke has advantages, as does the narow kerf. Yes, some japanese saws are very finely made, and they in general are excellent tools. Nevertheless, I believe it likely that if power tools had not interrupted the transmission of inherited western hand saw skills, that the Japanses tools would not have found an empty market niche waiting, and would therefore be relatively scarce today.
Have now read Adam's article in PW three times and it is sinking in. As to tooth count, it seems that if you are serious about handsawing and will be cutting various thicknesses you need a selection of long saws toothed to the work you will be doing. Onthe other hand, if you will be working with more or less the same thicknesses most of the time, you need fewer saws.
Joe, I agree, the decline in hand work has enabled the decline in quality of hand tools, especially hand saws, which will have increased the use of japan saws, and I have no intention of hijacking this thread about western saws, I find it extremely interesting, but as a woodworking tool the japan saw needs to be talked about more, but a different thread, later.
Pedro
Pedro:Agree completely that Japanses and other non-western saws as well, would make a fascinating thread -- and I have no prejudice against them at all.Why not start one? I'll it read with great interest.
joe sullivan was askin....
1) Is it possible to get as good a surface from a handsaw as from a good quality circular power saw blade?
Not only is it possible, but it is so easlily done with substantially less effort in transporting the saw, and moreover done with less tidy up afterwards, and, no cords involved.
How could this be accomplished? by simply using a hacksaw. Forget that 11,12 tooth count, yer hacksaw is way beyond that. And it is a handsaw....
Moreover in this era of man-made materials, MCP, HPL etc, none of the traditional disstonoids that I carry will anywhere cut as clean an edge as a hacksaw will.
I have next to the assembly bench three square bodied hacksaws- one with the blade canted left, one with blade canted right, and one with the blade in the middle. FOr interior corner cuts on MCP, I can lay the body down on the table saw cut and follow it with minimal risk of chipping,
For cabinet installations, I can cut HPL covered kick stock with nary a chip with a basic hack saw. Moreover it has a quality of cut only slightly less than a chop saw, only without the mess or noise.
So to my mind, forgoing the set up, noise, dust, and cleanup of a chop saw, the unsung hacksaw can do just as well.
2) What are the relative advantages and disadvantages to length in panel saws and other long saws, and is there a difference in the desirable length for crosscut and ripping?
face it, this is the age of electrons, so any substantial cut is gonna be done on TS or skill-saw, ergo my emphasis is on portability. Shorter is better for transportation and storage.
3) Tooth count -- in general, more teeth equals finer, slower cut? Still, I see in the other threads that some tooth geometry and count can lead to clogging. Are there some broad guidelines as to tooth count and set for a) softwood, b) hardwood, and c) fineness of cut and finish?
4) What about width of blade? what are the arguments each way, relative to task?
5) When is breasting an advantage?
6) How important is a tapered blade in a long saw?
I ain't experienced enuf to comment on any of these questions. other than to comment that in days gone by, everyone of these points might have made a great deal of significance to someone who was sawing all day.
The tapered blade, perhaps in an ACME 120 might be of significance to someone who is handsawing fine timber to tight tolerancesin "seasoned timber", but that's an unlikley ocurrance for about the last 40 years or so what with the advent of the RAS and then the chop saws.
7) What are the relative advantages of straight handlss vs "pistol" handles in dovetail saws?
Got me on that one. I'm thinkin it's more tradition than utility.
eric in Cowtown.
8) What makes a "bad" saw; one that knowledgible
Isn't the hack saw a bit slow?Joe
For cutting DTs and other shallow joinery cuts in non-challenging wood, a hacksaw works fine if one has a decent frame to tension the blade and more importantly not allow the blade to twist over its length. But it is slow. I like getting done a tad faster.
Take care, Mike
2) What are the relative advantages and disadvantages to length in panel saws and other long saws, and is there a difference in the desirable length for crosscut and ripping?
I find I prefer a short x-cut saw. My crosscuts aren't long enough to justify a longer saw. I'm looking for accuracy, not speed. I look to make a cross cut perfect so that I don't have to touch that surface again. I use a 20" panel saw for this and recommend a little saw like this.
6) How important is a tapered blade in a long saw?
My initial tests indicate NOT. A little set prevents any friction in a normal kerf. If you don't know how to saw and you S your way thru a rip, you may find non-tapered saws more difficult to use. When a board closes its kerf, the answer is a wedge. No amount of taper grinding seems to help that situation. I like the greater weight of the non tapered saws. The kenyon long saws in their non tapered form are significantly heavier than Disston's of equal length.
7) What are the relative advantages of straight handles vs "pistol" handles in dovetail saws?
Straight handles are cheaper! They were traditionally called "gent's" saws, made for occasional users. The professional cabinetmaker can hold his dovetail saw off and on for at least 2 days in the construction of a large chest. My hand cramps if I use a gent's saw.
Just a word about cost of saws. I've been showing my saws to different people (Roy Underhill liked them!) and to a man everybody seems amazed that I cut the teeth myself. Cutting the teeth on a saw is a 1 hour job for me. But to make a decent saw handle takes me many hours, as many as 6. So its kinda funny that the part I spend the most time on, nobody notices. But this gives you some idea of the difference between a turned handle and a carved one. It also helps put in perspective the value of a new saw. For me, its 4 hours of blade and spine work, 4-6 of handle work, an hour on the teeth. I think I calculated approx $50 of materials per saw (I had a local sheet metal place shear the steel and fold the brass on a brake). So I'm looking forward to quitting my day job and competing against Mike Wenz. $5/hr WO HOO!
8) What makes a "bad" saw; one that knowledgeable people would avoid?
I see many new saws with the wrong teeth cut into them. I think LN did a pretty good job mating the tooth patterns to the blades' shapes.
Also, I don't like the boutique DT saws with these deep and rectangular blade shapes. A fine DT saw, needs only 2" of blade at most (since the number of teeth are linked to the stock thickness, which is linked to teh depth of the dts). I think a tapering profile makes the saw nicer to use. (But these are just personal preferences).
On the used market, long saws with short toes i.e. badly worn down, saws whose handles aren't complete (hate them), thick bladed backsaws, any saw with a skew back.
Adam
Edited 3/6/2007 12:19 pm ET by AdamCherubini
Adam:What is a skew back in a saw?
A skew back is a curve at the top of the saw. Read the following from Pete Taran's site:
http://www.vintagesaws.com/cgi-bin/frameset.cgi?left=saws&right=/8/8.html
Adam, man, don't be a Dee- Eighter Hater. ;-)
Seriously, I don't know why Adam thinks these are poor saws. They are not extraordinary for cabinet making, but they are hardly poor. The skew has little practical effect for most routine sawing operations.
The skew was probably a material savings for Disston and not a performance improver. Pretty sure Disston claimed it made the saw stiffer (it does not). The D8 in particular has an unfortunate hang angle. Its blade shape puts teh cg too close to the handle leaving you to produce all of the downforce yourself. It might be okay as a cross cut saw, but then its unique handle offers no advantage. Head to head against a Kenyon saw or even a #7 in good shape is no contest.
Adam
PS I intend to include some level of competition in my upcoming sawing talks. I'm going to call it "beat the master". There'll be two sets of horses and two identical saws and I'll invite guys to see if they can rip faster than I can. (its really a good way to snooker guys into seeing how fast THEY can rip). I have a few other little saw games that perhaps I should post so you all can try them (like how thin a silver you can take from the end of a board (in a x-cut).
Adam
I'll race you. Only as long as I don't have to wear those goofy pants, and that silly a$$ hat!!
Jethro
Hi Joe,
Your series of questions are valid and interesting, but I'm concerned that attempts to answer them in a serial, and somewhat fragmented, manner will tend to result in largely theoretical or polemical responses. And, in looking at your question about basic saws (to which James actually gave you a fairly useful response) in the previous "saw" thread, I sense that you are seriously looking for some practical guidance as to how to begin to incorporate western hand saws into your work. So, that is what I'm going to attempt to do, at least in a general way.
That attempt may or may not be helpful, but I'm going to try to include some contextual considerations, which, hopefully, will help you decide whether my response is addressing your concerns or not. And, I apologize in advance if I've completely misread your intent/concerns and what follows is way off the mark.
In your query in the previous thread, you asked about "standard rip & crosscut" saws. This is a good starting point, and requires at least a two-tiered response.
If you are starting with rough-sawn stock, then the first tier is in "getting the stuff out." In other words, sawing the rough-sawn material to approximate length and width before subsequent preparation of the material. Since there will not yet be a true reference edge, it is common practice to cut the material somewhat longer and wider than the desired final dimensions. This is most easily accomplished on saw benches, and especially for 4/4 material, the 26" crosscut and the 26" half-rip saws are well suited for this. For ripping heavier material, a full rip saw at 28" may also prove useful. In any event, speed of cut takes precedence here, so a ppi of 7 to 9 will be useful for the crosscut saw and a ppi of 5 to 7 will be helpful for the half-rip. I'm trying to be specific enough to be useful, but don't intend them to be taken as some kind of absolute. I do want to add, here, that while these are preliminary cuts, this is a good place to experiment with technque in order to acquire the skills which will help when it comes to more critical saw cuts.
In general, if one is fortunate enough to be able to justify the purchase of the high quality saws now on the market (i.e., not the mass produced saws), that would be an excellent place to start. Otherwise, older (maybe pre-1960?) western style saws in this general category do tend, still, to be somewhat readily available ("in the wild") and inexpensive. If you stick with some of the better known brands, you will generally not go too far wrong - as long as you pay attention to condition issues. The particular configuration (straight-back, sway back, ship's point, etc.) can be debated ad naseum, but I encourage you to follow your own sensibilities on these points, then turn your attention to whether the blade is straight, relatively free of heavy rust and pitting, and the condition of the handle, etc. Though, of course, the handle can be repaired or replaced if you are so inclined. Another option is to purchase older saws which have been reconditioned from reputable dealers online.
I've sharpened my own saws from the beginning. In part, because I was shown a couple of really nice saws (belonging to someone else) which had been butchered by a "professional" saw sharpener. But, more importantly, because I'd committed myself to learning how to use hand tools and traditional techniques, so knew I wanted to have knowledge of that skill as well.
But, if someone is wishing to experiment with hand saws in order to see whether and how much they might want to use them in their work, then I see nothing wrong with sending them out to a good saw sharpener, such as Cooke's. Especially for the first sharpening of an older saw. For one thing, it will provide something of a "pattern" (be be followed or refined) in subsequent sharpenings. For another, and more importantly, a decently sharpened saw will provide more realistic feedback of the true capabilities of hand saws and will help avoid the development of self-defeating techniques. A properly sharpened saw will not make the craftsperson, but a badly reconditioned one can be very discouraging and could actually become an obstacle to developing useful skills.
The second tier response to the use of crosscut and rip saws is that of final dimensioning after the material has been planed to produce a reference face, a trued reference edge, and thicknessed. If the ends of the material, at finished length, need to be true (such as carcase side panels), then it is desirable to knife the dimension around the material, then saw just outside the line. For this purpose, a somewhat finer and shorter panel saw may be desirable, if you have decided you are going to continue using hand saws.
But the smaller/finer panel saw is not absolutely necessary, at least for ca 7/8" thick material. If you have not finalized the width, it is eminently practical to make the cut with your full-sized crosscut saw, making sure to leave the knifed line, chamfer the off/waste corner of the end, then set the panel up in the vice and plane the end true with your try plane (or smaller plane if narrower stock). If good and sharp and set for a fairly fine cut, it is quite practical to do this.
You also asked about dovetail and tenon saws, so I'm assuming you are interested in incorporating hand saws into some of your joinery. Again, context becomes important.
If you are wanting a dovetail saw for drawer, or other small, work, then a back saw in the 6 to 10 inch blade length, 1 1/2 to 2 inch blade width, and a ppi range of about 14 to 18 filed, essentially, rip should serve well. While back saws of this size are typically called dovetail saws, it is important not to take this too literally. For example, a 6 " long 1 1/2" width dovetail saw is probably too small for sawing dovetails in carcase dovetail joinery. And definitely too small for the dovetail joints in the frames for traditional sash and door work.
Especially, when it comes to dovetail saws, I really believe it worthwhile starting with one which is properly sharpened, etc.. Slow and/or errantly cutting dovetail saws will, almost inevitably, lead a novice into bad habits. I think the oft-heard advice to simply "pick up whatever saw is at hand and have at it" is very well intentioned, but counterproductive. I strongly prefer a "pistol grip" dovetail saw, though learned on a straight-handled saw and know they can be made to work well, also.
As to other back saws, the size will depend on the scale of the work you envision using them on.
It is useful to know the 18th and 19th century convention regarding the naming of back saws (Holtzapffel):
Carcase saw, 10 to 14" long, 2 to 2 1/2" wide, 12 ppi
Sash saw, 14 to 16" long, 2 1/2 to 3 1/4" wide, 11 ppi
Tenon saw, 16 to 20" long, 3 1/4 to 4" wide, 10 ppi
But it is best to view these as size categories, primarily, and not take the nomenclature too literally or pedantically. And there is some thought that, early on in the 18th century, the term tenon saw may have been used generically for all back saws. Though the other terms begin to show up in the literature as the century progresses.
When it comes to larger back saws (larger than dovetail saws), older ones tend to be somewhat readily available. So, if one learns to sharpen, etc., it is possible to gather together a kit of these, quite reasonably, to fit out for any conceivable use.
When it comes to cutting miters (asked about in your post in the previous thread), this depends on what kind of work you are going to do. But, if for occasional smaller miters for cabinet/furniture work, this can usually be handled by any back saw of the appropriate size (filed for miter cutting if desired), in conjunction with a wooden miter box or miter block. If cut slightly longer than necessary, you can then use a miter shooting board and appropriate plane to clean up the cut and finish to the final length. The beauty of this approach is that you can adjust the final outcome one shaving at a time.
Well, this has gotten very long-winded, and I'm not sure how helpful it has been. But, I'm hopeful that by adding a little idea of process and context that it will, at least, provide a little food for thought.
Don McConnell
Eureka Springs, AR
Edited 3/6/2007 2:24 pm ET by chamfer
Don:
Wonderful answer. Thanks for being long-winded. More and more I find it remarkable that saws do not get more attention from the hand tool crowd. Even on this forum, there have been thousands of words more spent on chisel sharpening than on all aspects of saws. Chisel sharpening is interesting and important, but then, so are saws.
Adam, Mike, Cowtown, Samson, thanks to all of you for making these two threads so interesting. I just picked up a load (5) older saws. Paid about $10 each on ebay, freight included. Some Disstons, some others. Those will be my practive sharpening saws.
Meanwhile I am also picking up some very good, fully sharpened ones -- including a couple just ordered from Mike. Maybe by the time his get here in early summer I'll be able to do them justice.
Don,
<< And, in looking at your question about basic saws (to which James actually gave you a fairly useful response) in the previous "saw" thread....>>
Thanks for the kind words.
Looking back at that, and after having gone back to look at my saws again, I managed to get some of the details wrong, specifically the cross-cut TPI ratings; I'll have to edit those, to keep from mis-informing anyone else....
Your saw post above, like the other posts you've contributed on various subjects, tend to be rather infrequent, but exceptionally informative and very thorough. I learned a lot from this one, (too).
Thanks again for your kind words and for the very informative post.
.<!----><!----><!---->
Tschüß!<!----><!---->
<!----><!---->James<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that...."
-- A.C. Clarke
Joe,
1) Yes, but it generally requires a slow-cutting high TPI saw -- 20 TPI +. This is minorly off-subject, but my higher TPI Japanese saws leave a very smooth, almost polished surface; the couple of Western-style, high tooth density saws (like the Zona) that I've seen do the same.
Not so sure that a polished, shiny surface from an electric circular saw (of whatever flavour) is necessarily a good thing. Some of that polish/shine appears to be burnishing, and while it looks nice on an outside, visible surface in raw wood, that burnished polish and shininess may create adhesion problems if used as a gluing surface, and may adversely affect finishing if on an outside surface, as well.
2) IMLE, it's primarily stroke length (as already mentioned) and room available for the saw to move during the cut. A longer saw does put more teeth through a board on a full-length stroke than a shorter saw, so -- all else being equal -- it may cut faster.
3) Don't know.
4) For a back saw, it obviously affects depth of cut. For a panel or full sized saw, a wider blade makes it easier to keep the blade at the cutting angle and to keep the cut going straight.
5) Don't know.
6) Don't know. Logic suggests -- all other thing being equal -- that it would reduce reduce the amount of binding in a deep cut or in a thicker board over a non-tapered blade, but practice doesn't necessarily show that to be true.
7) Straight grip is cheap and easy to make. Works nicely enough on pull saws. Pistol grip fits the hand much better -- more of an "extension of the hand/arm" feeling to it than with a straight grip; makes keeping the blade vertically perpendicular to the board easier; makes keeping the toe to heel angle easier to maintain; aligns the saw with the arm such that the arm can provide maximum energy to the saw in the most efficient manner due of the arm/saw interface angle; much less fatiguing to use for extended periods of time.
8) Cheap materials poorly designed and assembled. Doesn't work as designed, due to improper setting, sharpening, hardening/tempering of the blade, etc. Poor ergonomics.
Used for a purpose other than for which designed - for example, a hacksaw can be used to cut dovetails, tenons, etc., but it was designed to cut metal, and cutting metal is what it excels at.
.
Tschüß!
James
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that...."
-- A.C. Clarke
Yes, the Zona does leave a very good finish, without a doubt, but probably wouldn't be a good choice for a lot of the wood we all use or large size projects, do you think? Growing up with a father who is a very fine, skilled builder of scratch model ships and trains , we used razor saws all the time. He still does, along with a magnifying hood. I don't have much call for them -- but as inexpensive as they are, I might just experiment.
As an aside, Dad is so meticulous that when he does manual labor (as in every day out in the country where he lives), he actually tapes his finger tips so as not to get calluses there that might interfere with his sense of touch in very fine work.
Joe,
<<Yes, the Zona does leave a very good finish, without a doubt, but probably wouldn't be a good choice for a lot of the wood we all use or large size projects, do you think? >>
Have to agree with you that it probably wouldn't be a very good choice for general purpose use. I look at a saw like the Zona razor saw as a (very) specialised tool -- one that was designed to do one or maybe a couple of things extremely well. For everything else, there are better-suited and more efficient tools available.
.<!----><!----><!---->
Tschüß!<!----><!---->
<!----><!---->James<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that...."
-- A.C. Clarke
Right.
One of theold saws I just picked up is a Belknap. Can't yet see the etch through the rusty patina, so I don't know which model. There is about NO information on internet about Belknap saws -- although lots about the hardware company itself.The interesting thing about this saw is that it has two sizes of teeth. It is not with me as I write this, so I must be a little vague, but one tooth out of every so many teeth is longer than the rest, and has a slightly deeper gullet. Any idea what this design is for and how well it works?Joe
In addition to the different-sized teeth and gulets, the Belknap saw has differential filing to the teeth -- the ones near the toe are finer and do not that the long ones -- and have a different pitch -- same back near the handle. Also, in rnning my figers along the edge, I can't finr much, if any at all, set.Mike W., Adam, how in the world would one file such a saw, and SHOULD it have a set?
Hi Joe,
Without a picture, I don't know what kind of tooth pattern among the dozens which were advocated in times past, nor of the dozens of patented patterns.
In general, if there is a series of two or more teeth, followed be a very deep gullet and this patteren repeated, it most likely is one of the several M tooth variations meant for quick cutting, often in green or mostly green lumber/timber.
It is also possible it is one of the patterns meant to be a combination tooth for both rip and cross cut...but need a picture to be more specific.
Take care, Mikewho's going to veg-out for the night...
MIke:
With any luck there are some decent pix of that Bellknap when I finish posting. I realized that saws are nice and flat and all, and so I could just scan the blade and not wait for daughter's camera.
The pitch starts out even at the toe and then starts the odd business of having a larger tooth and gullet every so often. The most aggressive toothing is in the 50% or so of the saw in the middle, if that makes sense.
Of course, the blade is well used, so it is not as easy to see as it might be.
Joe
Edited 3/13/2007 12:08 pm ET by Joe Sullivan
Hi Joe,
Just a matter of how it was filed. From the scans it doesn't appear like anything super purposefull.
Take care, Mike
I began to wonder about that. So you think it is just a bad job of filing? Should it now be jointed and evened out?
J
Joe, I reckon Mike is being diplomatic....That looks like whoever did that filing was holding the saw between his toes, sipping his Jim Beam & meths at the same time. Send it to Mike for a total re-make- notwithstanding anything said by Adam on the subject of sharpening your own saws (,).Philip Marcou
philip,
"....That looks like whoever did that filing was holding the saw between his toes, sipping his Jim Beam & meths at the same time. "
Confirming Adam's contention that back in the day, everyone "knew" how to file his own saws. I've seen worse, including ones that were both breasted, and swaybacked, all at the same time, and crosscut saws with all the teeth filed from the same side...
I have an old, probably '50's era Disston saw manual that shows some pretty interesting pictures of actual saws sent back to the factory to be sharpened after they'd been filed into such a state that even the owner couldn't pretend he was making things better by "touching up" the teeth.
Ray
Ray:
Of course, Adam contends that the art of sharpening was lost to the trade in the middle 19th century, so maybe we are providing evidence that he is correct.
Joe
I personally think that as more saws shifted from cabinet makers using a large percentage to fewer and fewer, more carpenters using them, that perhaps there was a loss of skills.
Disston did lament the situation. He went so far as to say Disston dumbed down the saws [I take that to mean more rake] because there was a loss of "skilled mechanics" he was selling to.
The loss of sawing skills was noted then. Whether that also applied to the sharpening or not is an issue. One can make of it as one would.
I think there have and will always be people who for one reason or another will sharpen their own saws and those who will send them out. More power to either group. I don't look at sharpening saws as a skill everyone has to have. But there are plenty of resources out there to learn.
My grandfather and great uncle had saws to sharpen nearly every weekend for years. From the farmer down the road to loggers still bucking logs and everything in between. It was never looked down upon.
A great resource for sharpening is Steve Cooke in Penn. He will do a great job, will turn them around quickly. I am not so quick on the turn as making the buggers take precedence. I am so behind at the moment that until we get moved and hire people for other tasks, that they would sit here for 12 weeks.
Take care, Mike
Mike:
I grew up among people who at the low end were competent with hand tools, and at the high end were cabinet makers. Also living in the country, tools were critical to life. Many skills were taken for granted. I wish now that I had paid more attention to what the old boys had to teach -- but I didn't and they are gone now so it is a long uphill road -- but very interesting.
In those days where we lived, saws went to a sharpener. I don't dispute Adam's contention that the real craftsmen of old knew how to sharpen. However, most people I knew -- even those with impressive craft skill -- had lots of demands on their time and would gladly let someone else di it for a modest price.
Seems I vaguely recall somebody who invested in a saw sharpening machine -- maybe Bellsaw. Don't recall anything else, including whether the machine worked or not and whether or not he recovered his investment.
As to loggers -- the old guys I knew may or may not have known how to sharpen. The guys who came out of the camps early in the century probably did not, because any camp of any size had a saw shop where the sharpener sat up at night sharpening by lantern light, using a spider gauge and a mallet to set those big teeth. The saw man and the blacksmith were critical specialized guys who got better pay and semi-private quarters.
Edited 3/13/2007 12:05 pm ET by Joe Sullivan
Philip, Mike:
Yes, as I looked more closely at this thing in the process of making the scans, and began to count the spaces between the larger teeth, I realized that there was no regular pattern. The saw really appeared to have had a hard life in terms of filing. Still, I was curious as to why there wold have been those occasional much higher teet, and whether there could have ever been a method to the madness.
I guess the answer is no. I am also QUITE sure that this thing is beyond anything I should try to fool with as an initial sharpening project. That would have been true had it been an exotic set pattern, and it is true as a matter of recovery from incompetence.
The question is, would the underlying saw be worth the trouble to send it out for sharpening? There does not appear to be any information on the web about Belknap saws. Even the Galoots lack posts about them. The shape is standard. Is the metal decent?
Right now, I have about $12 invested in this saw. If the conclusion is that its highest and best use is to be painted as a country craft, so be it. Onthe other hand, if it is a good saw, re-toothing might be the thing. Or, because it does seem to be scarce, maybe it has a collector value.
Ditto, I'd have to see the tool. I've tried some funky filings over the years. Keep in mind, that I saw entirely by hand and have ever since I started woodworking. So my interest in finding faster cutting saws is chiefly practical. I know roughly how long it took 18th c craftsmen to complete some projects and I'm trying to find ways to match those times. Its been my experience that bellied or breasted saws cut faster and I prefer saws with variable pitch (using my definition) and variable rake. I greatly prefer aggressive cutting saws as finer teeth can clog in the kerf and stop cutting. Sounds like your saw has a couple of these ideas in mind.Adam
Adam:
I'll try to borrow my daughter's digital and post some pix in the near future ( I do a lot of photography and teach a youth class in it for 4-H, but am quite retro -- all film for me and lots of B&W -- thogh most of the kids in my class use digital).
Another question -- you mentioned a couple of times that you flip the boad on long rips in order to make sure that the cut tracks on both sides. Makes perfect sense. I assume you must mark both sides? Isn't that a bit tricky if the edges haven't been jointed yet?
Joe
If you want to work from an edge, that edge should be tried up. Otherwise, I work to a string line.Adam
Of course. Makes perfect sense. I use lines myself. Must have had a brain lock thinking about marking gauges.
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled