Hello, Everyone!
I am in the process of constructing my first dedicated router table. In so doing my design was giving me the feeling that its center-of-mass was going to be too high for the stability that I felt would be appropriate and safe. It will have drawers beneath it but the future contents where not going to provide the mass that would provide this stability. My intuition kept telling me that I needed greater and fixed mass at a much lower level.
Because I have limited space in my workshop I have to keep my tools mobile so it had to be mounted on wheels. I favor the large 4 inch caster-locking variety – 5 inch total height – which I now have on my band saw. These wheels provide great toe space and roll nicely under load. The 5 inches that these wheels took from a total height of 41 inches was the source of my concern.
I have read that some people put weights from their barbell sets in a lower drawer and so on. This did not appeal to me because I needed my drawer space for storage of related items and I still use my weights on a regular basis. In addition, I wanted a solution which would not change my basic design and which would adhere to the KISS principle – ‘Keep It Simple, Simon!’
This is what I came up with. The lower frame of my design is based on 2×4’s. My lower drawers sat directly above these frame members which meant that these supporting members surrounded nothing but empty space. Not any more. I placed an old sheet of 1/2 inch plywood below this frame (avoiding the area where the wheels were to be mounted so as not to increase the height) and filled this tray with SAND. This provided me with the center-of-mass at exactly the correct location, did not alter my original design and came at a price that could not be beat. Plastic bags keep it in place. Nothing like a good and inexpensive solution that works.
Hope this helps someone out there who has a similar problem.
Regards,
Phillip
Replies
Just wonder the over all size of the table. My router table is 24" square and about 34" tall and sits on 3" wheels. I have no issues with stability and was just wondering what made you think you need to add weight to the base.
Scott C. Frankland
Scott's WOODWORKING Website
"He who has the most tools may not win the race of life but he will sure make his wife look like a good catch when she goes to move on."
Scott,
Thanks for taking time to respond. As to your inquiry about the dimensions of my router table, here they are.
My router bench is basically two sections. The lower half is 40" (W) x 18" (D) x 21" (H). The upper half, which houses the router and holds up the Veritas/Lee Valley metal router table top is 22' (W) by 14" (D) by 14" (H). The metal top is 16" by 24". Including the 5" locking caster wheels, the bench sits approximately 40' in height.
Briefly, I chose this design because the two 'shelves' to either side of the upper section are convenient for placing work pieces. In addition the sides of the lower section both have pull-up supports for long stock and which double as handles to steer the bench around the shop. The lower half will have two large drawers on slides to hold all related items.
In regards to my statement about stability, let me explain further.
I live in an Oak Park bungalow and my workshop is in the basement. The construction of this home took place back in the early 1920's and the concrete floor is not level by any stretch of the imagination. Because of this, unloaded or less the sand, the bench tends to 'teeter', but with the added weight this tendency is significantly reduced if not completely eliminated depending on where I park it. This is no doubt, due to the mass of the sand which causes the lower section to flex and thus conform to the irregularities of the concrete floor. I originally was going to use what are referred to as 'one ton slides' which are heavy duty levelers but because of my limited work space I had no choice but to make it mobile and use the wheels. This mobility came at a price - the instability - which needed to be rectified. Necessity being the Mother-Of-Invention that she is, the sand idea was 'born'.
Incidentally, I was poking around in the gallery and saw some of your work. It was terrific.
Warm regards,
Phillip
My floor is new compaired to yours and is near level everywhere in my shop but haveing worked on unlevel floors I can understand where you are comeing from. I installed leveling feet on the two front corners of my router table so that I can make it sit level and to prevent it from moving around during use.
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Using something like this may take all of the teeder out of you table.
Thanks for the reply to my question and thanks again for your comments on my work.
Scott C. Frankland
Scott's WOODWORKING Website"He who has the most tools may not win the race of life but he will sure make his wife look like a good catch when she goes to move on."
Scott,
Those levelers are what Veritas/Lee Valley refers to as 'One Ton Slides' in their catalog. I bought four of those and are what I was originally going to put on my rig. This afternoon I loaded my new bench with the sand and I still have a little wobble which I cannot tolerate. And guess what I decided to do? You got it! I'm going to put those levelers on. I'm going to start will just one between the casters which I cannot lock. This will give me three fixed points which is, apparently, similar to what you have done. I may go ahead and use two at that end and be done with it. Details, details, ...
I really appreciate your feedback. I will keep you posted as I progress.
At this point I'm still waiting for my new router to arrive. You may have read my thread where I was hemming and hawing between the PC7518 fixed and the Bosch 1619 plunger. SARGE came along after I had ordered the 7518 and told me about the Milwaukee 5625 which is adjustable from aboveboard. This feature could really take the drudgery out of making those time consuming bit-height-adjustments (BHA). So, I went ahead and ordered that router as well. I'll look them both over and decide which I prefer. I do not want all the gadgetry which is available so I do not want a 'bit jack'. I do not mind making BHA's but if they can be simplified then I'm all for it which is why the Milwaukee is so appealing.
Sorry for rambling on. Take care.
Regards,
Phillip
Yes they are from Lee Valley. I bought them about 6 months ago and they work great. I only have two on mine as I found that was all I needed.Scott C. Frankland
Scott's WOODWORKING Website"He who has the most tools may not win the race of life but he will sure make his wife look like a good catch when she goes to move on."
Hi Phillip,
Did you every get both the PC 7518 and the Milwaukee 5625? I'm in the same situation as you were- comparing both. I'm leaning towards the Milwaukee because of the ease of bit changing and better ergonomics for hand-held use. However, I've heard that some folks have had problems with the height adjustment mechanism failing and others told me it is not as durable- i.e, has more plastic in the moter, compared to the PC 7518. I'm also wondering if the Milwaukee will fit in the lifts made for the PC 7518 should the lift mechanism ever fail? What are your thoughts having examined both models?
- Lyptus
Good Morning, Lyptus -First of all, I decided to purchase the Milwaukee 5625 over the PC 7518 and haven't looked back. My experience is as follows.After mating the router to my Lee Valley/Veritas router bench top, I was disappointed that I could not use the built-in above-the-table adjustment capabilities of the Milwaukee because its adjustment hole was beyond the circumference of the router top 3-7/8 inch opening. I could have drilled a hole in the top, but I opted not to do that for the time being. That was a year and a half ago.Fast forwarding to the present, I can say that I am very pleased with the Milwaukee. But I also have to add that not owning or even ever using the PC 7518, I cannot be certain that the PC would or would not have been a better choice for me. All I can say with absolute certainty is that the Milwaukee performs perfectly for all of my router bench purposes. The collets are multi-slotted and very well machined. As to plastic, I am not sure what others have a problem with in this regard. The Milwaukee is very well made in all respects.Adjusting the height, fortunately, has never turned out to be a problem with me and to be completely honest, I believe that doing it by hand is actually faster. I say this because you have to first grab the T-handle, unlock the motor, make your adjustment, re-lock the motor and replace the T-handle. Without the T-handle, I just reach under and unlock the motor, turn the adjustment knob to raise/lower the router, and re-lock the motor. If access to the adjustment knob is an issue then the above-table method may be faster. Having said that, if access to the adjustment knob is an issue then I would assume that unlocking the motor would be an issue as well. Perhaps not.The Milwaukee comes with two types of handles: the big D-handles, and the ball-handles, so yes, you do have an ergonomic choice. My Milwaukee stays under the table but it is nice to know that if I ever need to use it otherwise I have a choice of handles. It also comes with both 1/2 and 1/4-inch collets. And I cannot believe that the the height mechanism would ever fail as it is all metal. As to lifts, I have never needed or used them so I cannot testify one way or the other. I use a Bosch 1613EVS plunger for my hand-held routing. I also own the PC 310 trimmer for lighter work.I am not certain what you mean by 'ease of bit changing' because the Milwaukee is just like any other two-wrench system. It's not the easiest task, but I just do it and move on.So, in summary, we all have different work habits, temperments, and preferences, so the Milwaukee may or may not make more sense for you dependent on how you plan to use it. In comparing all of their features, the Milwaukee is 3-1/2 HP, the PC is 3-1/4. The Milwaukee comes with both the 1/2 and the 1/4-inch collets. The PC comes with only the 1/2-inch collet. Amazon lists the PC at $285 and the 1/4-inch collet is $9.99 extra. The Milwaukee lists at $258. Bottom line, the Milwaukee costs $36.99 less, you get more HP and the 1/4-inch collet. You have to decide what matters to you. My best advice to you is, find some way to take a look at both of them before making your purchase, if that is possible. I personally always have to take advice with a grain (or two) of salt because some of us will drive Chevy's until hell freezes over while others wouldn't be seen dead in one. I believe that the same can be said of our preferences in power tools. Brand names used to mean something. Any more, I'm not so sure since some power tools all come from the same factory in Taiwan or China. The 'hood ornament' being the only way we can differentiate between them. So, today we have to do more research before we make our purchases just as you are doing. 'Shop and compare' as the commercial says.I hope this has helped you somewhat. Time permitting, I would like to know what you decide. By the way, the best book I ever bought on routing is Pat Warner's, 'The Router Book'. Good luck. Regards,
Phillip Anthony
Phillip,
Thanks for your thoughtful response. If I can find a Milwaukee 5625 to look at in person I will. They are hard to find in my area. Judging from all the accolades it has received recently, and your comments and those from others, it sounds pretty great. I also like the 5-year warranty. The PC 7518 only has a 1-year warranty.
Do you have to remove the subbase to mount the Milwaukee in the Veritas Table? The advantage of the Veritas system seems to be that you can remove the router for hand-held use pretty easily. I was originally thinking of getting the Veritas table but I may just build my own and use a phenolic insert so I can drill an access hole for the T-wrench. However, the phenolic inserts are 3/8" thick compared to the 1/8" thick Veritas top. When you raise a bit all the way up in the Milwaukee, does it extend at least to the outer edge of the sub-base (i.e., will a 3/8" insert pose a problem)?
- Lyptus
Let me add 2 things to what Phillip has said.
1- The quick release button is plastic, does wear, cost $.97, takes all of 30 seconds to replace.
2- The bases cost $27.00 new. Since the whole router just slips out of the subbase, leave 1 in the table and one on the bench. I don't use the T-handle very often either, but it's nice to have.
Good luck,
Joe
Lyptus,I could have removed the base but because of the 'reach' of the Milwaukee, I saw no need to do that. I would like to give you exact details as to how far the router will protrude above the top but I have just tuned in a lock-mitre bit and cannot change it for the time being. Sorry.Lee Valley is something that I can get pretty long-winded about. As far as I'm concerned, there is not another similar business which even comes close to what they offer and back up. And trust me, I have put a lot of money where my mouth is. I have only one regret about Lee Valley: they are not a public company and I cannot buy their stock. Smart of them, too bad for guys like me. Enough of that.The Veritas top is 3/16-inch and it may the best buy I ever made. It is not so much just the design and construction of the top, but all of the accessories that you can purchase which make bench-routing safe, productive, and as precise as you want to get. Their system is a joy to work with. Period.I've had my share of Sears and homemade router bench top rigs. Prior to the Veritas top, I was restoring an altar in a 150 year old New Mexico church and had to have a 6-ft router top to work some long cabinet pieces. You gotta do what you gotta do. Not sure how I could have used the Veritas top even if I had owned it at that time. I went ahead and raised the router (I can re-set if tomorrow) and took a few photos. As can be seen, the collet protrudes above the top with no problem. Taking off the base plate will probably add another 1/4-inch or so. The other images show access to the adjustment knobs from the front and the black motor lock-down strap from the rear.And yes, the router comes off by loosening two brass knobs and goes in precisely where you had it which is important in that certain bits will still 'fit' in their zero-clearance inserts. It's easier to do if you just flip the whole thing over which is very do-able with the Veritas top. I've included two images which show the whole set up.So, if you want to make your own top, the 3/8-inch insert should not be any problem whatsoever with the Milwaukee. Good luck.Regards,
Phillip
O.k.! I'm convinced and will purchase the Milwaukee tonight. Thanks again for all of your feedback and the great photos. I kind of wish I had purchased the Veritas top and fence because I too love their products and their customer service. I purchased the Incra LS 17" Super System last week and after opening the box, I'm regretting it a little. I have a small shop and the Incra looks like it is going to require a fairly bulky top- maybe 26" x 34". Hopefully once I read and understand the lengthy instructions I'll be happier.
Cheers.
- Lyptus
Lyptus,Didn't mean to push one way or the other. Just wanted you to know what works for me and hopefully you will have the same results.Stay in touch. Good luck.Phillip
Hi again,
I didn't mean to sound like you were being pushy. You've been very helpful. I received my Milwaukee router yesterday in the mail. I spent about a 30 minutes going over all the functions. At first, when I ran the motor it seemed to gain speed gradually as per the soft start function. However, every time after that the motor seemed to get up to speed immediately and I experienced a slight torgue so that the router twisted slightly under my grip. Is this normal or is it likely that the soft start function is busted? Also, did you receive the knob handles with your router. I read several reviews that refered to the knob handles being included but none came with my router.
As always, thanks for your help.
- Lyptus
Lyptus,Congratulations! on your purchase. I don't think that you will ever regret buying the 5625. I have not as I told you earlier.Yes, I was just like you when I first got mine - I just had to crank it up in my hands. Reminds me of my behavior as a child on Christmas day. So, yes, I did feel the torque as the router twisted somewhat in my hands. Torque is simply a law of physics. What you are feeling is the increase in angular acceleration as the motor increases in RPM. Having said that, I'm not so sure I paid much attention to the soft start function. Thinking about it, when I start it up in my bench, it does seem to lag a bit on start-up but we all perceive the real world differently. Without the use of sophisticated electronic test equipment, I'm no so sure that we can be very objective or scientific in our observations in this regard. I know the benefits of soft start-ups, but I think the only real way to check your tool is to 'load' it up on the bench and try to observe its behavior. I'm not fond of doing this as I always try to slow-feed my stock into the bit, while attempting not to overdue it and scorch the cut. Your only other option may be calling a Milwaukee rep and having a chat about this. Hopefully, your tool is up to spec. Now, about the ball handles. Mine did come with the ball handles. However, I just checked the Milwaukee web site and found little on this. I took a look at my manual and on page 13 it says, 'The tool may also be held using ball handles supplied separately with this tool (Fig 17).' So, I apologize for misleading you about this. Mine came with the ball handles so I never gave it another thought. You are welcome to mine because I do not plan on using this router in any manner other than under my bench. So give me your address and I will be happy to ship these to you. No problem.Take care.
Phillip
Wow, thanks for your kind offer. I have contacted Milwaukee about the soft start and handles. I'll let you know what they say and wait to take you up on your offer until I hear back from them.
Thanks,
Lyptus
Scott,
I have a question. How did you get the photo in? I just tried to attach two photos and neither showed up. I thought I went through the process correctly, but no luck.
I 'chose my file', selected 'download', then hit 'done'. And Nada!
If you have time for this that would be great.
Thanks,
Phillip
If you add the following line to your post (img src="http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/renay.frankland/images/planes.jpg) You will have to add a instead of ). This only works if the image is posted elsewhere on the internet. This image happens to be on my website. You have to also click the box below where it says "Check here if HTML tags are in the message (not including signature)".
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Scott C. Frankland
Scott's WOODWORKING Website"He who has the most tools may not win the race of life but he will sure make his wife look like a good catch when she goes to move on."
Scott, Thanks a million!
I apologize for having to ask you about this but you are the only person that I have contact with who has done this. I use a Nikon digital and have many photos that I'd like to share. You know that old axiom, 'one picture is worth a thousand words!' AND I do NOT want to start a thread on this subject. There is enough going on as it is.
I have a website, so to speak, which is provided to me by Apple. I do have some problems with it but in all honesty I do not spend that much time fiddling with it so I get out what I put in. Anyway, some of my work is on it and if you have a minute you can take a look at it. The link is below.
http://homepage.mac.com/pabriles/
Scott, thanks again and have a good weekend.
Regards,
Phillip
That is why most of us visit this site. We come to impart a little wisdom and to hopefully leave with a little also.
My website is similar to yours and it is just something I fiddle with from time to time but it is by no means anything to get excited about. I am looking at upgrading my digital camera sometime in the near future with a Canon digital Rebel. I have a nice Canon EOS SLR setup and still want to be able to use all my gear with a digital setup.
My wife liked your New Mexico Territorial Table though I am not a big fan of the look I do admire the workmanship. I do how ever like your walnut crotch coffee table the grain is as you said "incredible".
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Scott C. Frankland
Scott's WOODWORKING Website"He who has the most tools may not win the race of life but he will sure make his wife look like a good catch when she goes to move on."
Scott,
Thanks for having a look at my 'site'. I also appreciate your wife's comments. I bought an old barn in northern NM and have used the wood for several territorial tables which I have sold over the years. I was born and raised in Santa Fe and raised by my grandparents. My grandfather used to 'tinker' with woodworking and our home was filled with spanish style furniture. All of these things have had a lasting impact on me, thus the territorial table's that I make.
I used to make a living with a camera and used Nikon exclusively. Amazingly enough my D100 is able to utilize all of my old lenses. This is amazing to me and a tribute to Nikon for being able to engineer this capability in.
Take care.
Regards,
Phillip
Scott - the quote on your post:
"He who has the most tools may not win the race of life but he will sure make his wife look like a good catch when she goes to move on."
...is that an original...that is great! I am going to post it in my office.
-Martha
Me and my dad have a serious competition between us when it comes to tools and toys. I have everything he has in tools but mine are more industrial than his, but he has way more toys though. One day we where joking around and I told him that when he moves on I am going to have myself a real nice collection of tools and toys. That is when he told me that he was going to leave them all to mom so that she will have an easier time attracting a good man. So I reworded it and used at my catch phrase.Scott C. Frankland
Scott's WOODWORKING Website"He who has the most tools may not win the race of life but he will sure make his wife look like a good catch when she goes to move on."
I can understand that! My Dad didn't want to spend the money on a lathe and mill even though he really wanted it. He figured he was getting old and he would die and it would be a waste of the money...so I told him to just make sure he bought nice ones and then he could leave them to me...that got to be the standard nudge I would give him anytime he was looking at tools. He got a lot of use and enjoyment out of the tools before he passed away. (he build about 2/3 of an inch to the foot steam locomotive!) He did leave the tools to me. Now one of the guy's at the local woodworking store jokes with me since I have a pretty complete woodworking and metal working shop in the basement..."wow! a woman that comes with her own dowry!"
-Martha
top heavy caster mounted stationary tools in my shop are "ballasted" with concrete paving stones, when i build a cabinet for a tool, the space for the stones is designed in, ie my router table stand is designed for 2 paving stones, band saw designed for 4
if i can i allow for more to be added if required for really heavy work
sand would work well of course, except what happens if a bag breaks?
caulking is not a piece of trim
Steve -
Thanks for the post.
Yeah, concrete 'ballast' as you put it would be great but all of this center-of-gravity business came about after the bench began to take shape. I assumed that the mass of the cabinet below the router would be enough weight to make it feel stable. I did think of bricks but do you know what those cost in the Chicago area? They demolish buildings just to get the bricks? And that's a fact. If you want to use these you'll have to work at 'night' just so you can afford them. Ha! They're really expensive - if you can even find them - so sand was the next best alternative.
The thing I like about the sand is that it 'covers' the base of the router bench from corner to corner. I don't have any voids anywhere and again, the cost was nothing. And just to be safe, I did double-bag the sand - just in case.
Regards,
Phillip
Phillip
I use lead shot.
It comes in real heavy duty canvas bags at 25 lbs a bag.
Makes it easy to move around and I keep a bunch of bags handy for gluing, holding things, and weighting bases of machines.
Can be bought cheap from the gun shops for reloading.
Jeff
Recently built a router table using 2 in. square metal tubing and filled the tubing with sand as I welded it together. I did this thinking that it might absorb some of the vibration that was prevalant in some of the other router tables I had built. I bought a Jessem top and Mastr Lift and have a PC 7518 moumted in it. It does run real smooth but as everything was new I am unable to say for sure how much the sand helped . I do know that it makes one heavy router table.
Jeff -
Never thought of that one. Great idea! Fool of me to think I had a clever idea when you guys were way ahead of me. Live and learn.
Thanks for your input.
Regards,
Phillip
Phillip
Actually, the idea of sand is good, and I used it years ago.
Problem was, I needed to dissassemble a bunch of tables for transport.
What a mess, had to come up with a better idea.
The lead shot is real heavy and doesn't absorb moisture.
The small 25 lb bags make it real easy.
When gluing up large panals, I pile a bunch on the center area.
It can work almost as good as cauls.
I've also used it to fill legs for bottom weight.
Real handy, so I keep about 10 bags around the shop ready to use.
Jeff
Jeff,
Moisture absorption never came to mind. I live in Oak Park, IL and our humidity may be comparable to yours or maybe less. Nonetheless, this is not good.
Okay! I'll call around and inquire about the lead shot. Seems to me the stuff comes in long or narrow canvas bags. I can see the convenience of your idea.
I'm convinced.
Thanks again.
Regards,
Phillip
I live in Oak Park, IL ... YA but ya rich folks got AC!
I've said this so many times that most simply dismiss me.. buy a shaper instead!
Slower speed means the cutters remain sharp so much longer, the work is so much quiter and the power is so much greater..
I started with a small Jet Shaper and moved up to the 3 hp Grizzle..
A shaper can be safer and is far easier to use that a upside down router..
To All,
There are rules and formulas for most things and one of these that are used for electricity is the following.
P = V x I (Watts)
This means that power (P) is equal to volts (V) times current (I) which results in a certain value rated in watts. Every electrical motor is rated at a certain wattage meaning that it only operates PROPERLY at that wattage.
For example, using the nameplate of a typical 1 1/2 HP Baldor motor which is designed to be wired at either 115 volts or 230 volts, you will see the volts listed at '115/230' and the amps listed at '18/9'. This means that if this particular motor were wired at 115 volts it would draw 18 amps. On the other hand if it were wired for 230 volts it would only draw 9 amps. Looking at it another way, we see that:
P = 115 (volts) x 18 (amps) Watts , or
= 2070 Watts.
Now if it were wired at 230 volts we would get:
P = 230 (volts) x 9 (amps) Watts, or
= 2070 Watts.
Both results are the same, because going back to what I said above, the manufacturer intended for this motor to operate at a certain wattage whether it is wired at 115 volts or 230 volts. In this example this wattage is 2070 watts.
So, as was pointed out by forestgirl, if you opt to wire an appliance or power tool at 230 volts you WILL cut the amperage in half.
In regards extension cables, wire used for extension cables are rated in either 'Ampacity' or in 'Maximum Wattage Load'. Following the National Electrical Code (NEC) you will find the following:
Wire Gauge Ampacity Maximum Wattage Load
12 20 1920 watts (120 volts)
12 20 3840 watts (230 volts)
10 30 2880 watts (120 volts)
10 30 5760 watts (230 volts)
So for our motor example above, if you wired it at 120 volts you would have to use an extension cable made from 10-gauge wire because 2070 watts is greater than the allowable max. wattage of the 12-gauge wire which is only 1920 watts. Whereas the max. wattage of the 12-gauge wire is 3840 watts IF wired at 230 volts.
One last point. Every circuit is regulated by a breaker or fuse which has a fixed rating in amps. Exceed this amperage and it either trips or must be replaced. Having said this, it should be clear that a 230 volt motor/appliance makes half the demand on a circuit that a 115 volt demand would because the 230 volt motor - again, going back to what forestgirl said - pulls half the amps that the 115 equipment would.
I hope this helps.
Phillip
I have several router tables.. None are weighted. Largest bit I use though is a 2 inch diameter (about that) whiteside lock miter bit for large panels.. I have NEVER had a problem with the tables moving. None of the shop built tables are anything special.. Just FLAT!..
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