RUST. i recently inherited a number of beautiful old tools. 🙂 however, there is quite a bit of rust on many of them 🙁 i am a chemist, or used to be, so i am thinking ..instead of using steel wool…will either an acid [like vinegar] or alkaline [like baking soda] solsution dissolve the rust. ? i actually have tried to sand, with 0000 steel wool an old t-square ruler, and all i am accomplishing is removing the inch, etc, markings. can anyone help me? thanks
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Replies
As a chemist, you'll like this. Do a web search for
electrolytic rust removal
It uses a washong soda solution and a battery charger.
hey, thanks for your reply. i will check out washong soda, but i was looking for something more sinple!! getting a battery charger sounds more complicated than i was hoping to find. can i electrocute myself??? or is that a silly question? i have been out of the lab for a long time. but i will check it out. suzyt
just did a web search and did not find 'washong'. you meant washing soda!!!! i know what that is!!!! suzyt
Yeah, I was going to write sodium carbonate, since you're a chemist, but I had a sudden moment of doubt and didn't want to look stupid. Oh well. If sodium carbonate is wrong, it's no stupider than washong soda.
i had not thought of doing a google search for 'rust removal'. i just did and got some neat ideas. the electrolytic route seems to be effective, but it looks very messy, etc. there are pictures on various pages. yuck. several articles mention, among other things molasses (!), vinegar, nitric, muriatic, and hydrochloric acid. would you believe that molasses actually works. seems that 'phosphoric acid is produced' [i do not understand that.] the vinegar apparently will work, but it is slow. that is okay with me. i have lots of time. i have not gotten much work done at my home office this evening, but i have learned a lot. thanks so much!!
i have
i
Hi,
in an article somewhere on this forum there was a link to somebody who restores old planes. The examples are impressive. Part of the described process (no details) is electrolitic. Have a look at: http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mike_in_katy/PlaneWood/Default.htm
Gert.
hi, freegee, thanks for taking the time to write. i did find a number of articles in google on electrolytic rust removal. but i really do not want to mess with batteries and wires that look like they are used to jump start car batteries . it works but i don't like electricity--yes, i know that i am a chemist. so i was looking for something "more safer". thanks so much :) suzyt
Naval Jelly.
hi, gretchen. thanks. never heard of naval jelly before, but i just read a lot about it on google. sounds good. it is thick, so it would stick to surfaces. it seems to work becasue it is very acidic. i will try it. NOTE to anyone who might try this: use EYE PROTECTION! this stuff is very very strong acid. gloves for hand protection.-- articles that i read on the web talk about hand protection but none of them mentioned eye protection. i am gong to try it. the articles say 15 minutes, no more, because it is so strong. thanks
Suzyt,
You should investigate the electrolytic method. It works very well. It's not messy. The voltage used is very low. A car battery supplies 12 volts. It couldn't possibly cause harm you, and the process works with supplies much less cumbersome than a car battery. The results are very impressive and require little effort.
You mentioned using acid. As you probably know, all acids oxidize (remove electrons from the valence layers) the metal (remove metal). The only reason that an acid bath might loosen rust is that Iron oxide is not protective and all the acid is doing is further removing metal under the rust, letting the rust flake off. This leaves less metal and the resultant acid-etched surface is prone to more rusting. Electrolysis and alkalais reduce the metal (add metal) instead of oxidizing. (add electrons to the valence layer).
Good luck
Rich
hi, rich. what i read on the web about electrolytic cleaning sounded really ghastlly. where would i get such a battery? all i can think of is a car battery. then i would need wires-i saw in one article that they looked like jumper cables? what kind of wires. i used to know a lot of chemistry--could not remember now if an acid or base was better. now thinking of chemistry, would hydrogen gas be released? think that i read that-do i need to worry about explosion?
i am basically a chicken, but i guess that you have been successful with this!!! the molasses looked so simple. phosphoric acid.--i was going to buy some pepsi. !! but i am a bright person, and a trailblazer, some people say, so i will read up on it more. thanks
>> ... would hydrogen gas be released?
Are you jerking my chain? You're a chemist and you're asking us about hydrogen?
>> ... all i can think of is a car battery.
If you did a web search and followed enough of the links to find out that electrolytic rust removal is ghastly, I don't know how you could possibly have failed to discover that the vast majority of the sites describe using a battery charger as the power source.
>> phosphoric acid.--i was going to buy some pepsi.
OK, now I'm getting suspicious. A chemist's preferred source of phosphoric acid is Pepsi? You don't know what the concentration is. You don't know what else is in there that might interact with the phosphoric acid, or the iron in the tool. And you're going apply this goop to a tool that is valuable enough to be restored?
Edited 9/2/2002 4:28:29 PM ET by Uncle Dunc
OK, OK.
Time out. Time out.
"CHEMIST"
Do you mean as in one who has a degree in Chemistry? Or do you dispense medication, as in the use of (Brit) "Chemist" = (USA) "Pharmacist?
If you have a degree in Chemistry, I am on Uncle Dinc's side, as in, "Huh? You don't know this stuff?" If you're a pharmacist, well . . .you're forgiven.
As Uncle Dunc mentioned, a battery charger can be used. The small kind that one charges auto batteries with. They're very small. Or one of the ubiquitous plug in transformer/battery replacement devices for cell phones, computer printers, modems, etc., etc. You could even use a square lantern battery or two.
Yes, you could use jumper cables from your car battery, ending in small-diameter wires with alligator clips that actually hook to the electrodes in the electrolytic bath.
Everything that you need is at Radio Shack.
There is no danger of explosion. The electrolytic current is very small. It's no messier than cleaning up the kitchen after whomping up some than pancakes, bacon and eggs, a pot of coffee, and toast.
C'mon. For very little total effort, the result is amazing. Just don't use acid on your tools. Good grief!
Rich
hi, rich. i hang my head in shame. i am a chemist, as in doing lab research for a lot of years, with an MA, yet, in chemistry. i was just too lazy to think about it. i have been out of the lab for 15 yrs, but you are right. no excuse.
but, i dont do a lot of car stuff, [used to change the oil in my car when i was very poor.] i am terrified of using jumper cables to jump start a car. thus, i do not even want to think about using this method. maybe if i go to radio shack and look at the eqipment i might get more comfortable with it.
just to be ornery {sp?], soaking tools in pepsi might not do a lot, but it certainly isn't going to hurt anything. !!!
thanks. you guys are great. suzyt
Here's a web site that gives a pretty good comparison of different methods of rust removal.
http://www.geocities.com/goodytommy/rust/
Most of the electrolysis sites describe treating a huge chunk of horribly rusted metal, like part of a volkswagon. If you are just trying to get some rust off some rules or small tools, the process scales down to a very easy project.
Basically, iron from a sacrificial iron electrode (attached to the positive terminal of a battery or battery charger - any iron sorce will do. A screwdriver, a piece of rebar, an old useless plane iron, etc) is removed from that electrode and deposited onto the tool being cleaned which is attached to the negative electrode and suspended in a washing soda bath.
Didn't you do this kind of thing in Chemistry 101 - first year lab? While the hydrogen gas is potentially explosive, its concentration is very low, and it harmlessly dissipates into the air. Just do it outside. I guess if you lit a match right over the bubbling bath, you might get it to ignite!
Rich
> ....Yes, you could use jumper cables from your car battery, ending in small-diameter wires with alligator clips that actually hook to the electrodes in the
electrolytic bath.
Whao, Rich! I wouldn't advise *anyone* to be hooking up jumper cables to a fully charged auto battery and sticking the ends into anything. There's a lot of amperage there. Only 12 volts but one helluva lot of amperage. And amperage is what makes for melted wrenches if you drop one across the terminals. Ever wonder why mechanics don't (or shouldn't) wear rings or bracelets when working around batteries? One barbequed finger is all it takes to learn the lesson the hard way.
Battery chargers, yes, Batteries, no.
Even a little model train transformer would work plus it's adjustable.
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Dennis,
Sorry, but you completely misunderstand the relationship of voltage, resistance and current flow. The fact that an auto battery has the potential to deliver a lot of current does not mean that a lot of current will flow.
Voltage is voltage. 12 V placed across the resistance represented by the electrolytic solution will result in a very low current in the solution whether that 12 V comes from an auto battery, a 30 amp charger, a small trickle charger or a bicycle lantern battery. The auto battery will deliver that current for a much longer time than the lantern battery because its storage capacity is greater.
If you give the voltage a very low resistance path such as crossing the jumper cable wires, and holding them together, you could melt the wires or the cable connectors because so much current will flow in that low-resistance connection that it will heat the wires to their melting point.
Under such conditions a small battery also will try to deliver all the current that the low resistance connection allows, but the capacity to deliver the current isn't there. (technically, the internal resistance of the battery itself is too high)
If you grab the terminals of the auto battery with your hands, you would experience no more harm than if you did the same with the lantern battery because the high resistance path of your skin and body would allow only a few milliamps to flow - absolutely harmless.
Yes, I should have warned not to make a direct connection across the auto battery terminals, but beyond that, its voltage is not harmful. Or I should have warned of the danger of exploding batteries, etc.
But every time we talk about the use of any potentially dangerous piece of equipment we don't go into a full explanation of the safe use of that equipment. We assume some common sense, mechanical apptitude and ability to deal with the equipment.
Rich
Dennis,
Sorry, but you completely misunderstand the relationship of voltage, resistance and current flow. The fact that an auto battery has the potential to deliver a lot of current does not mean that a lot of current will flow.
Quite the contrary, Rich. I do understand all that. I also understand we're contributing to a thread initiated by an individual that doesn't know what a battery charger is (not intended as a purjoritive comment). Thus I don't assume anything about safety with respect to handling lead acid batteries. If we've got someone stringing jumper cables between terminals who's unfamiliar with them and doesn't understand you don't just leave the cables lying on the floor to be kicked around (as an example) you're inviting trouble. I just waved a red flag since it would seem prudent to leave 12V lead acid auto batteries out of the equation in this situation.
Believe me, I'm the last one to attempt to pick an fight. I'll use my kids' old train transformer for low voltage experimentation.
I'm outta here.
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
dennis, i know a lot about many things, but i know almost nothing about jumping cars, how to set up batteries, etc. i would be really afraid to try electrolytic rust removal. i would not know if i did anything wrong, anything dangerous. thanks for recognizing that!
i know a lot about handling strong acids, for instance, for i worked in chem labs for years. i know how to handle them safely.
as a matter of fact, when i read your message, i really understand why i did not want to try electrolytic rust removal. in the back of my brain, i knew that i did not want to mess around with it. your note sent out a "boing" in my brain. thanks so much. susan
hi uncle. actually, hydrogen gas IS released- i read that-wondnering if you thought that might be a problem. one article said that it was important to do this outside, or in a well ventilated area. so that the hyddrogen gas doesn't concentrate. remember the hindenbnerg--one article said.
sorry-i am a 'girl'-do not know what a battery charger is!!!!!
-yup, i would buy pepsi, because it is easy to obtain. i work a lot of hours and the idea of just going to the supermarket is appealing. no, i do not know what the concentration is, but it would never be too strong. possibly too weak. since some people drink it, there would not be anything too strong to react with the old tools. at least i would be surprised if that were a problem. i would start with the least precious tool to start.
thanks for your response.
Suzyt,
I have had excellent results with plain old white vinegar (acetic acid). You can get it in gallons at most groceries--cheap. I put the vinegar and the tool in an old Cool Whip container, or Tupperware, or whatever the tool fits into, and let it sit overnight. In the morning either the rust is gone or it comes right off after a little scrubbing with brass brush. Make sure you wash off all the vinegar when you're finished and carefully dry the tool. Or if you want to be really safe, wash the tool in a baking soda solution and then dry it. It's cheap and easy, and you probably already have everything you need--including the vinegar.
I've tried Naval Jelly. I've never been able to get it to work very well. Either nothing happens--it doesn't remove the rust--or it stains the steel, or both. It's also rather expensive; and VERY messy.
As always, experiment to see what works for your tools.
Alan
Ok, thought I'd chime in on something other than acid and electrolysis. What about soaking the tools in motor oil, 3 in 1 oil, or WD-40 (I love that they sell gallons of WD-40). Then using some elbow grease, get the rust off. Here's what I would do:
Get some pans/coffee cans/buckets to hold whatever you want to clean. Put the tools in and cover them with whatever soaking oil you're using. Let them sit for at least several weeks and up to several months (if you can) for really pitted items. Then working somewhere you aren't afraid to get messy (I cover the bench with newspaper) set up a pan (I use the big ones a restaurant would use to bake on) to scrub the tools on. Wearing rubber gloves and using Mineral Spirits as a lubricant use 400 grit wet/dry paper sand the item. If need be move to 600 grit. Also for really pitted items I usually start with 3M synthetic steel wool (don't recall the brand name off hand). I ususally rub the whole tool so the appearance is more even. For screws and anything that would be damaged by sanding I stick with the steel wool. Finally, I religiously wax all tools with Renaissance Wax. My tools are out in a shed and in 2 years I have had no rust problems at all.
I noticed you mentioned rubbing off the etchings on a square, if you're worried about that, using really fine steel wool. And of course, soak the tools for a long time so the oil does the work.
This technique works very well for me and I would recommend it for anyone with patience and a willingness to make a mess.
Remember, sandpaper and steel wool are cheap, and they will wear out quickly, don't be afraid to use a lot. Also, the oil can be reused over and over, just let the debris settle out.
When people 100 years from now see my work, they'll know I cared. --Matt Mulka
Edited 9/2/2002 5:40:34 PM ET by Matt Mulka
hi, matt. i am going to try the vinegar first and see how that goes. the idea of having oil up to my elbows doesn't sound great.
i did use 000 steel wool on the Tsquare. but i had not soaked it in oil first.
wanted to ask you what is renaissance wax is. i need to learn more about these things. thanks so much
Naval Jelly is sold in a sort of paste form or a spray. I have never had trouble getting it to work. I don't think most of us have a battery charger at our disposal. Try the vinegar. You might even try liquid toilet bowl cleaner. It cleans up brass and copper. Being an acid (stronger than vinegar) it might also work.Gretchen
And, after you've gotten all the rust removed from your tools, give them a light, thin coat of machine oil applied with a rag. Caution if you are concerned re getting oil into the wood of your next project.
Now then, use some of all those plastic grocery bags into which your groceries are put at the supermarket nowadays.
Stick the cleaned up tool into one of those bags and put a rubber band closure around the neck of the bag after you've pressed most of the air out of the bag.
If you have a good tight tool cabinet with doors and a low wattage light bulb inside you won't need to employ such a poor man's anti-rust measure----but it's cheap, takes little time, and works.
William
Three blocks off the Ocean and on a salt water canal
I make something, sometimes twice, each year.
This kind of thing must have been discussed ad nauseum in woodworkers' discussions. I disagree with the advice to coat wood working tools with machine oil. It's nothing but a dirty mess, collects dirt and invariably dirties the work.
Use paste wax. Apply sparingly and wipe all the excess off. Wax does not adhere to itself but does adhere to the surface to which it is applied. So if you wipe the applied wax off vigorously, all the excess wax beyond the thin protective layer will be removed and the tool will be left with a very thin protective layer that does not transfer to hands or work.
Rich
Touche!
Can't argue the advice.
WilliamI make something, sometimes twice, each year.
dear gretchen, here...here.. another woman who does not know what a battery charger is, THANKS!!!! i have learned a lot. i am going to try the vinegar first. naval jelly is a very strong acid, so i am going to hold off on that for a while. but thanks for the info and for the moral support!!
dear gretchen, here...here.. another woman who does not know what a battery charger is, THANKS!!!! i have learned a lot. i am going to try the vinegar first. naval jelly is a very strong acid, so i am going to hold off on that for a while. but thanks for the info and for the moral support!!
I do have to say I know what it is--I just don't think it is common to have it!! The Naval Jelly is NOT that dangerous. I too have spent my time in a chem lab and have handled a lot worse. Do the eay thing if you really want to get rid of the rust. NJ is it.Gretchen
Suzyt,
Reading the advice of others suggesting post rust removal measures to reduce the chances of the rust returning, reminded me that I neglected to tell you what I most often do after removing the tool from the vinegar and scrubbing off the rust (if the tool needs scrubbing--usually not necessary). I use good old kerosene after the vinegar.
Kerosene is a very good rust treatment all by itself--especially if you have some parts frozen together by rust. Kerosene seems to be able to penetrate and loosen the rust enough to get the tools apart. As an added bonus kerosene leaves a very thin film on steel that is an excellent rust inhibitor all by itself. In my experience (not particularly vast) if I buff off as much of the kerosene as I can, the residual film doesn't affect the wood.
I always keep a can of the stuff around the place--it's quite handy if the lights go out too.
Alan
suzyt,
Renaissance wax is a petroleum based wax of very high quality. I wipe on a thin coat and then buff it a couple of minutes later. It does not attract dust and get all over wood as machine oil might. It also won't interfere with finishes. I think you can get it at woodcraft or lee valley, and it's about $20 for 2 ounces, but well worth it for me.
Matt
Harsh.
UD,
There is no reason to be uncivil to the lady.
Frank
a belateld thanks to you. suzyt
Suzyt, Navel Jelly is a phosphoric acid solution in a jell about the consistency of snot. I sticks to the metal well and stays moist but I have had limited sucess with it. However it is compounded for rust removal so it should be the correct concentration. Phosphoric acid, you will remember, is tribasic and the pKa is such that it is never completely ionized and the pH doesn't go below about 1.5 so it is not a really strong acid. I don't think that there is enough phosphoric acid in colas to be much help with the rust.
With light rust, mechanical means, aided by penatrating oils is a good way to go. WD-40 is good but I would choose a product found in auto supply stores called PB Blaster. I think it does a better job with rust.
If you run into thick rust encrustations, electrochemistry again raises its ugly head. Battery chargers come in a array of sizes, from big 120 amp booster that I could use to jump start my diesel truck to little trickle chargers that keep the battery from discharging in an unused vehicle. Those might be about the size of a pound of butter and have small lightweight wires and clips. A 6 amp size would be good. Try Sears Automotive store to see one. One word of warning though, be carefull about grounding because they may not not be isolation transformers and improper wiring could cause one of the battery clips to be at line voltage. In other words, don't work in the sink or near waterpipes or other grounds. I think that you just need to see the set up and you will discover how simple it is.
One chemist to another.
BJGardening, cooking and woodworking in Southern Maryland
Getting back to the original subject: try this link, http://users.interconnect.net/nlindsey/rusty2l/index.htm
It seems to be pretty complete and safe.
Peter
Life is short. Treat others well.
dear uncle. i am a former lab chemist, have an MBA, do interior house painting, wallpapering, and sheetrocking, hold down a very responsible job, do simple carpentry, plumbing, and house repair, grow wonderful tomatoes, have done research in electrochemistry, bake all my cakes, cookies and pies from scratch, .....and ...i do not know what a battery charger is.!! i would venture that about 98-100% of my woman friends do not know what ####battery charger is. when my car battery is low, i buy a new battery!!!!
you and i must hang around with a very different group of women!!!!!
suzyt,
. . . and now you can add rust removal expert to your resume!
Never having given cola a thought for rust removal, I tried it yesterday after reading your messages. So far, it hasn't removed any rust from an old block plane iron. I'm using Diet Coke. Maybe I need regular Coke? The label lists Phosphoric Acid as an ingredient.
Can't say the Coke removes rust, but the plane iron sure gives the drink a kick! Yum.
Rich
Living in the humid Gulf Coast region, I have way too much experience with rust. For all machined surfaces (probably not the best for your etchings) I use phosphoric acid from the automotive paint store or a great phosphoric acid based product called GEM that leaves a protective dull gray coating. I apply both by dipping a square of non-steel wool (like Scotch-Brite) in the solution and rubbing the rusted area. The rust is quickly gone and a quick wipe with a fresh paper shop rag leaves a clean surface. If you use GEM on an area you want slick, you'll need to follow up with wax or better yet, Slipit. I'll usually hit the surface with micron paper on an orbital or polish if it's a working surface, but the GEM residue seems to protect nooks and crannies well. If you are putting a tool away for a while (like custom shaper knives), Boeshield has given me the best long term rust protection. I wipe off the waxy film with mineral spirits just before the next use.
Several posts have mentioned naval gel. Isn't that stuff designed for use on brass?
I'm going to try the vinegar, but I'm wondering if CLR or its equivalent might do the job.
Jeff
Jeff,
I went looking for the plastic bottle of CLR in the laundry room and ran into a gallon of vinegar..so I tried the vinegar. Let the tools soak for a while and then went at it with a little steel wool (I'm like a kid with a bandaid...gotta know what is happening under there). Anyhow, It worked pretty well...all the rust came off. I then washed the tools with some baking soda and water, dryed and light wax. One point of caution !! If you spill the vinegar on wood it turns the wood black. My wood was just scraps, but coulda been a lot worse. Good Luck
BG,
You stumbled across an old trick for "aging" wood. Some use it as a stain. Don't know if it works on all woods - might be fun to experiment. I've used lye on pine with fair results.
Jeff
Jeff,
Don't know if vinegar turns all woods black...but you can put a check mark next to pine, birch, oak, mahogany ....sigh..
> ....
Several posts have mentioned naval gel. Isn't that stuff designed for use on brass?
....
Brass doesn't rust.
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Dennis,
That's the point I was alluding to - brass tarnishes and the naval gel is formulated to remove that tarnish, not to remove rust.
Jeff
Naval Jelly removes rust...Brasso is used to polish...well...brass...Think you're confusing the two....(spent four years in the Navy)
Thanks X ! Is it good on toast?
Jeff
Works even better on toast.
But... wouldn't it be easier just to brush the toast off, into the trash can ?Quittin' Time
hi, jeff. would you please fill me in--what is CLR.?
i am learning SO much!! thanks, susan
Calcium, lime, rust. It's a cleaner available at hardware and grocery stores.
Oh, please Suzy. There are 40 replies to this and now brass has gotten into it. Why don't you TRY SOMEthing and report back. Unless---
ouch. gretchen, i live in northern nj. it is lovely weather right now, and i try to spend as much time as i can outside--gardening, mowing, pruning shrubs, staking my tomato plants. reading, etc. in a few weeks, when the weather cools down and i do not want to be outside, then i turn to my indoor hobbies, like carpentry.
also, it is only a week, i think, since i posted my question! it was my birthday and two friend s have taken my out to lunch(s). i actually purchased some naval jelly a few days ago. i also have not been feeling well. enough reasons/excuses? sorry. i am anxious to get my hands [or, gloves] dirty, and try, but it probably will be a week or two before i actually get started.
Edited 9/7/2002 11:30:12 PM ET by suzyt
Gretchen,
You, I or most denizens of this forum would have been out in the shop trying one of the solutions after the third post!
Rich
double ouch. susan
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