http://www.canadianwoodworking.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20200
I got this confirmed: after having built the Canadian for Lie-Nielsen tools with countless demos at tradeshows, workshops, and so on, Rob Cosman has been ‘replaced’ as the company’s distributor. They’ll sell direct from now on.
Rob has always been a reliable supplier – he even gave fair exchange rates when the loonie wasn’t worth squat. Practically everybody I know who owns LN planes, etc., bought them because of Rob, not because they were LN.
Maybe its in their rights to do so, but it’s really a crying shame for him. I guess they figured now the market is developed, they don’t need him anymore.
Its going to make my plane buying decisions a lot easier from now on. Lee Valley, here I come!
Replies
Do you actually know any details of the arrangement between LN and Rob, the reasons for the change, or the future of their relationship? Or are you just jumping to conclusions that LN is treating Rob unfairly?
I know as much as I need to know about the situation.
Draw your own conclusions.
Edited 2/8/2008 2:28 pm ET by Piccioni
Okay, I conclude that you're bashing LN on an internet forum (i.e., in public) based upon nothing other than you own assumptions and dubious extrapolations from a change in a distribution system. I further conclude that you have no particularized direct knowledge of the situation whatsoever.
Sure, I am an idiot.
I said in the post I confirmed the change. I said in the post Cosman built the market for their tools in Canada. I know as facts things I decided not to write down.
I assume you are a LN shill.
I don't dispute the change or that Cosman was their exclusive distributor in Canada. neither of these things suggest that LN has treated Cosman or Canadian woodworkers unfairly by changing to a new direct distribution model. If you have more facts that lend credence to your bashing, please set them forth. Your post amounts to: I know things I can't tell you, but believe me, if you knew what I know, you'd agree that the LN is terrible.
So are you a Lee Valley shill?
Do you know Cosman at all? Do you know anything about the work he has done to promote their products? Ever met the guy? Heard the name?
What does any of that have to do with your LN bashing? Are you implying that you know Rob, and he told you that LN shafted him? If you've got some facts to report other than that LN has made a change, please, spit 'em out.
"Your post amounts to: I know things I can't tell you, but believe me, if you knew what I know, you'd agree...." Hah! And, gee, where have we heard that before? ROFL!! Give 'im he77, Samson.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
<<Sure, I am an idiot.>>
You have made that very clear.<< I know as facts things I decided not to write down.>>
Put up or shut up.<<I assume you are a LN shill.>>
Go back back to the top of this reply.
[Avoid schadenfreude]
Who gives a damn? If Adolph Hitler made great handplanes I wouldn't hesitate to buy one from him.
Who gives a damn? If Adolph Hitler made great handplanes I wouldn't hesitate to buy one from him.
Charlie, would you still do so if it was bevel up? :)
All, I think that this type of speculation is harmful to both parties. As a generalisation, most individuals do not like to see change and rail against it. There are plenty of expressions of emotion in defense of Rob on the Canadian forum and some assume he was shafted. There are no facts to support this. It is all pure emotion/speculation.
It is worth a reminder - just trying to re-balance the scales - that both Rob and Thomas LN have wonderful reputations and are well known as honourable gentleman (and I use that term as a measure of deep respect). I have had little direct contact with Rob, but I have had plenty with Thomas. I just could do not see Thomas being anything less than this.
I think that this thread should end.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Boss,
I'd think twice about those third reich planes. Customer service sucks from the great beyond. Turnaround on parts takes literally forever.
Ray
What spare parts? They are not needed, we are not talking of some inferior stalinist copy, the original reichparts will last a thousand years mein gropenfurher.
Mufti, holding his own in good company.
For all of you who are taking sides, you can make your own conclusions on the situation after hearing about some facts with my order:
1) I met Rob Cosman at the Vancouver Woodworking Show last Oct07 and ordered the LN small shoulder plane from him and paying for it at that time.
2) I was advised that it was backordered and would be available very soon.
3) I call Rob several times in the last few months and he advised me that he had been in contact with LN and they would be shipping the product to him shortly.
4) I still have not received my LN small shoulder plane.
5) On LN's website if you want to order their product in Canada, you must order from Rob Cosman. His contact information is provided.
Not very good service from LN wouldn't you say.
Bill
bill, and to all:
There's no reason to choose sides. Both Cosman and LN will be just fine without each other. When I met Rob in Montana a few years ago, I was left with the impression that he'd probably be fairly successful in anything he wanted to do. He's a go-getter.
LN makes some of the finest woodworking tools available at a 'reasonable' price. Their business is growing, and will continue to do so.
The number ONE reason why established businesses fail is because they either refuse or are unable to alter their business plan to ever changing economic times. The successfull business blueprint for today's world is completely different then it was 5 to 10 years ago, and will be completely different again in 10 more years. Those businesses that don't react will sit cozily by their fire, and watch their business go up in smoke.
I hope you get your plane, soon. If I were you, I'd be on the phone with Tom tomorrow, and explain your situation, and I'd bet that your situation would be straightened out quickly. The only woodworking business I've dealt with that has even better customer service pride is Lee Valley, and not by much.
And lastly, for what it's worth, which isn't much, I think the OP who started this thread with his "believe me, I know, but I can't state the details here" crap should use better judgement next time, and keep his hands away from the keyboard. The only thing he accomplished is to make himself look like a total DONKEY!! Next time, just try "My dad can kick your dad's a$$!!" About the same level of intelligence.
Good one, Rob!
Jeff
I hope you get your plane, soon. If I were you, I'd be on the phone with Tom tomorrow, and explain your situation, and I'd bet that your situation would be straightened out quickly.
Jeff,
I know I have something negative to say about everyone and everything ;), but I'm not sure if that will achieve positive results.
Here is my story: about 8 years ago I bought a LN low angle jack plane. Used it a few times but not really being a plane enthusiast in the past it sat on the shelf most of the time. Recently went to use it and decided to sharpen the blade, which had not been done in quite some time. I could not get the blade to protrude from the sole evenly when the blade cutting edge was ground 90 degrees to the side of the iron. I had to hone the cutting edge a hair crooked to get even projection.
I called LN and asked to speak to someone about a "technical question". The phone answerer broad (for lack of a better term) insisted on trying to help me and after I spent 5 minutes trying to explain to her the problem, she said "let me let you talk to someone else" (Yeah, no $hit!). Spoke to a great guy named Andrew and after checking a few things with a machinist's square, he asked me to send it back to him to inspect.
That was 3 weeks ago, I called Friday from work and asked for Andrew. Noting doing, the phone broad wouldn't put him on the line, and spent 15 minutes looking for my name on the computer list and finally told me that they had not received my plane. So I get home and find my delivery confirmation receipt and insurance receipt from the good 'ole post office and sure as $hit the plane arrived 2 days after I sent it.
SO THE MORAL OF THE STORY IS:
DON'T EXPECT TO GET TOM ON THE PHONE
Lee (questioning the whole "great" Lie-Nielsen customer service thing)
Lee
Well, maybe they're going to hell in a handbag, then, and things have changed. I filled out my collection a while back, and haven't bought directly from them in a while.
Growth is a double edged sword. If you piss all your customers off in the process, what's the point?
Talk to ya soon,
Jeff
Jeff,
We'll see what the turn of events is tomorrow. I'm going to push harder to talk to Andrew, since I addressed the box to him, c/o LN Tools, at his request.
I'll bet dollar to donuts he got the box and it just didn't get entered in the computer. Or, if my luck runs as it usually does, they lost my plane and have no idea where it is. At least I have the delivery confirmation - I would be royally screwed without it.
Lee
Boy did I have the polar opposite experience of yours! I had a cherished bronze 102, that slipped out of my hand and dove to the floor, hitting the edge of a metal shelf first. Areas damaged include badly bent and knicked knuckle cap, thumbscrew bent, edge of plane bent and knicked. Called LN and got some Dame. I explained my situation and she said "Oh you poor dear, you just mail that plane back to us to take a look".
About two weeks later, I received in the mail my 102 back, totally restored to like new condition, complete with new plane packaging (it was my plane, as I engraved the blade with the angle I hone at). Only thing missing was the bill for the work!
I again telephoned LN and got the same Dame. This time she was very forceful and unbending: "We 100% guarantee our products and we don't it it is our screw-up or if it was one of you doofus's faults, we will faix it at no charge". So no bill!
Please bear in mind, I used the term Dame very much tongue in cheek. The LN organization was above reproach in professionalism and took care of my issue at no charge and in record time.
T.Z.
About the men in question -- what Derek said.
About Hitlers planes -- they are a superior race of tools, and will never break.
About customer service, I was asking a guy at woodcraft the other week when they were going have the LN rabbet block planes in stock. He told me that LN were expanding their production facility, and using their employees to do it. Time spent on construction = less time for production = short term shortages. Perhaps this is why some people are having delivery and support issues. Don't take this as gospel, I consider it to be an unconfirmed rumor, but it may be true. Perhaps somebody has more details about it than myself.
Regards,
Tim
Perhaps an official announcement could be made? Perhaps notifying those who are affected with a firm shipping date?
To say it is shuffling production employees to construction rather than production is just speculation and innuendo. See where that got the OP? ;)
tsgraz,
I work at the Woodcraft store in Springfield, VA. We stock the LN rabbet block plane. I am not trying to sell you anything. Just letting you know that they exist.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
This thread is better than lettermans top 10! Real entertainment for a slow office day!!!
Well, I got through to Andrew today and he knew exactly who I was, and what he did to my plane. Actually, the plane shipped out already (on the 6th) and should be here tomorrow hopefully.
The blade happened to be a tad oversize, which wouldn't allow me to skew the blade enough to get even projection from the sole. In addition, the sides of the iron were not parallel to each other, so obviously I was referencing the bad side to hone the cutting edge. Each problem compounded each other. They fixed the iron, re-sharpened it and got it back on it's way. Evidently I sent my plane right in the middle of this warehouse expansion, which caused a slight delay.
So, all is well. I wasn't expecting to get screwed, but I was thrown off a bit by the diversionary phone tactics. And worried sick all day Friday at work thinking my plane was MIA.
Lee
Lee,
I know that when my house was under a remodel, you'd have gotten different answers depending on who answered the phone too.
As far as LN service, I found it immpecable. I sent back a new Bronze 4.5 plane as it had a couple marks from shipping (halfway around the world) and they fixed it up, no questions asked. No charges either - they paid the shipping both ways.
Another time my daughter was using my LN #1 and dropped it on the garage floor, breaking the tote. I sent them a note asking how much $$ to send them for a replacement. They replied by saying that a new one was "in the mail" and free. I got it a few days later. OUTSTANDING compared to a lot of other companies (although, I have to say that Rob with LV also has OUTSTANDING CS too!)
Rod
Hi Rod,
Yes, you are correct. The customer service is good. The plane arrived today, with a handwritten note and brand new packaging/box. Works like a dream - total cost to me - $0
Lee
LeeGlad they straightened that out--literally and figuratively! I've had great success with both LN and LV. Last year at Lonnie Bird's school, I ordered a set of LN chisels on Monday, and had them overnighted to Lonnie's address. Tuesday came; no chisels. Wednesday came; no chisels. I called and the weather was awful--torrential rain and wind--nothing was moving in the entire state of Maine. They refunded the entire shipping cost, took an additional 10% off the order, and overnighted the chisels--I got them on Thursday. Recently I bought a LN 103 block from finetoolj.com. The cap iron was a bad casting and had a very sharp edge that drew blood. I emailed LN, and in five days had a new cap iron. Great company. Tom"Notice that at no time do my fingers leave my hand"
Bill,
What makes you think the problem is with L-N?
Let me expand: At times when I have ordered supplies/tools/whatever through a distributor there have been extensive delays. The distributor invariably attributes the delay to the manufacturer. However, on more than one occasion, when I've contacted the manufacturer directly to whine about the delay, there is no record of an order from the distributor for my item. Upon calling the distributor back and pressing the issue, he can't produce an order number to track the order and, a couple of times, confessed that the order, for whatever reason, must not have been placed. I have to admit that my faith in distributors, based on my experiences, is less than boundless and reflects a certain degree of cynicism.
I don't want to get into the middle of this issue but I thought you might like to know that that small shoulder plane seems to be out of stock at a lot of stores. Could be that LN is waiting for enough orders to come in so they can do one big production run. Anyway good luck it's a neat little plane.Troy
From Cosman's comment at the link you provided, "LN has been a great stepping-stone", it appears, without further information, that Cosman chose to leave L-N for other endeavors.
Having read pages 2 and 3 (as well as 1 and 4) of the link, Rob posted that he is fine with the deal and is concentrating on the instructional school/seminars he started 7 plus years ago.
On page 3 a poster identifies himself as the one who has been asked to be the new face of LN in Canada. If there is a new face, doesn't that contradict your assetion that LN dumped on Rob by going only via the web???
Samson has a valid point: spit it out or shut up (meant in a non-pejorative way, of course).
I did not make the assertion they went web only.
I also do not betray confidences, whether you accept that or not is up to you.
Sad
Perhaps you didn't say web only, but you did say : "They'll sell direct from now on."
So, someone can call them or click . . . . . the point is still why insinuate things without explaining them? If you think a business decision is unfair, state why you think so. Maybe Rob demanded terms that the other side felt were unreasonable; maybe Thomas demanded something that the other side didn't think were reasonable.
I am a big fan of both of these gentlemen, and am not going to speculate about why they made whatever business decisions they did. [ OTOH, we may all speculate about you.] Most business arrangements are set forth in written contracts, and those contracts generally have provisions to protect each side in the event there is a disagreement. I assume they have such an agreement and they each have attorneys to advise them as to their respective rights and obligations under their agreement.
I’m in a manufacturer’s rep business; the companies I deal with have the right to cancel my contract with 30 days notice, which is just the nature of the beast. Hell from the way those posts were written a lot of Canadians seem to like the idea of dealing direct with L-N.
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I would also submit that you have betrayed a confidence just by bringing this up in order to get your opinion out there with just a bit of information and stir the pot. A true confidant would never do such a thing, you would be classed as untrustworthy in my world. And you might want to work a little on that whiney 12 year old girl thing you got going, it is coming across as a bit of a shrill.
With an advocate like you,Rob Cosman is pretty well screwed. And do me a favor- don't go to bat for Lee Valley... I kinda like them.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
I happen to know for a fact that it was LN getting screwed. I won't give you any facts or anything, but trust me I know.
I could reveal all kinds of mysterious insider information if I wanted to, but I am a double nought spy and we don't disclose those kind of things. So I want you to just take my word for it and share in my prejudices.
I bought my LN stuff from Rob Cosman at Canadian woodshows. No complaints at all about the guy or the very fair price. But you couldn't order LN on his website, and the LN website referred you back to him. Weird.
Jim
I bought some chisels through Rob at a wood show last year. He really was one of the highlights of an otherwise bland show. I had heard rumblings about the split after the show, very second hand. Apparently the parity of the Canadian dollar with the US dollar had a lot to do with it. LN is just more affordable now, and more of us were trying to buy off the web. It was an opportunity to sell directly to Canadian Customers, rather than to go through a middleman. Again that's very second hand information.
Rob was a great rep for them, but to me the sales model was a little outdated. Having to call out East, was a bit tedious and it was impossible for me to get my wife to order something for my birthday! Being able to order online will simplify things; I always received excellent service through Rob so I hope that remains the same.
Rob heads out this way a few times each year. He was a dedicated salesman to LN, maybe this split will free him up to recommend other brands of tools. He's an excellent instructor, so it can hurt for him to focus on that.
In the end I doubt LN or Rob will be hurt to much by the split.
Buster
If that thread was all of the info available on this, I can't really see how anyone would get the impression that anyone is getting screwed. Rob didn't seem particularly negative and that really wasn't much info, anyway. To just come out here and pronounce that "I have all the info I need, draw your own conclusions" without saying what happened, well, that's pretty irresponsible. Why bother telling anyone a little about something and not including any real details? First, as was said, reps frequently lose a line because they did a great job and it is definitely part of that business. It really isn't up to anyone here to offer an over-reaction unless they were there and saw how it went. Otherwise, it's just hearsay.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
ROFLMAO!!!
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