I am going to upgrade from 50 year old contractors saw to probably 3 HP Unisaw. Also, looking at Steel City and others. Anyone with experience with SC vs. Delta? Would someone explain the reasons one would use right vs. left tilt. I am having difficulty figuring out what you do on left that cannot be done on right tilt.
Not sure how this message thing works, but would like to thank all who responded. Did take advise and do advanced search and noticed that there was much discussion on kickback issues and it did not sound like there was a concensus of opinion one way or the other. One fairly scientific sounding post, which sounded like an engineer or someone related to one, made a point (as I interpret it) that a right tilt bevel rip with fence to the right will be less likely to kickback due to rear teeth direction, blade and fence trapping or holding workpiece. This makes sense to me from a mechanical standpoint as it is somewhat like how you basically get away with a climb cut on a radial arm saw. Others strongly disagree. this is not an issue I am concerned with as you can produce rips satisfying both arguments by positioning fence left or right of blade with either LT or RT versions (although fence left, RT gives minimal rip width). As I said in original post, I have very old TS that does not tilt any more and have unfortunately on few occasions done bevel rips on radial arm saw. Having survived those kickback experiences and kept all body parts, I would like to eliminate kickback issue from the discussion. Post “things other than safety” made lot of sense re LT bevel wheel loc access door, arbor threads, etc. Began for whatever reason thinking RT but now thinking LT but would like to have sliding table also. Had some negative Delta. Any other thoughts. Steel City offering $. Any reviews that anyone knows of? Thanks to all.
Edited 12/8/2006 10:47 pm ET by see mike saw
Replies
Try an advance search on this topic. A few months ago, someone post a fantastic answer to the same question. Did not state a preference, just the pro and con of each! Sorry I don't remember who posted it. May someone else can help.
I think it is a little beter because most of the time you are working with your fence to the right of the blade. When you tilt the blade to the right you are more likely to get a kick back from the off cut binding between the blade and the fence.
It is a ford and chevy thing but I would look hard at General. I sure was impressed with the beef in the castings compare to the Delta and have been very happy with my Canadian General 650 Left Tilt. I notesd since that time that the imported General Internation tested even better and is significanlty less money where I live
Gear
Can somebody please explain why with a right tilt saw "When you tilt the blade to the right you are more likely to get a kick back from the off cut binding between the blade and the fence "? I know this is the "common knowledge" but it doesn't make sense to me.
It seems to me that if the off cut binds between the blade and fence it won't go anywhere, certainly not raise off the saw and fly through the air. Anyone experienced a through the air kick back on a right tilt saw with the blade tilted and the fence to the right of the blade?
Or is this one of those stories which has been repeated frequently enough it has to be true?
Getting dangerous kickback from a cutoff that got caught in between the fence and the blade is not myth. I'll wager that is has happened to most everyone who uses a table saw regularly.With the fence to the right of a right-tilting blade, you have an extremely touchy situation. If the cutoff moves ever so slightly, it will either be thrown back by the blade, or get chewed up by the blade before it gets spit out violently. This is no imaginary threat. If you are holding that piece with your right hand to guide it through, you decrease the chances of trouble, but if it does catch the results can be catastrophic. Left-tilt saws do not altogether eliminate the problem but lessen the probability of it happening.
David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
I have a right tilt Unisaw which I haven't used for a bevel cut yet. It's a right tilt because I intend to add a sliding table sometime and wanted the blade to tilt away from the sliding table. I use a spliter, the one that comes with the Uniguard. Are other folks making a bevel cut without a splitter? I also have a Unifence and for most cuts position it towards the front of the saw so that the fence ends in front of the rear of the blade.
There was an interesting discussion on right vs. left tilt in the middle of October, and Rick Christopherson had some interesting comments based on the physics of kickbacks with tilted blades.
It seems to be that if the fence is on the same side the blade is tilted towards then the wood would be trapped unless the blade bent enough. However, if the fence is on the side away from the fence it could ride right up the blade. What am I missing?
I don't think you're missing anything, although your last paragraph left a little clarity to be desired:"...if the fence is on the side away from the fence..."First of all, your right-tilt is correct for the slider. I don't know of any slider made with a left tilt.Second, there will always be some situations where the loose cutoff can get in trouble between the fence and the blade. The advantage of the left-tilt for a conventional TS is to minimize those situations as much as possible. Ripping a bevel on a left-tilt allows the piece on the right side to "ride up" on the blade as you say.Thirdly, with a slider you have some additional advantages. You can clamp the left side of the board to the carriage and assure that it will behave. You can also (on most European saws) set the fence so that it is out of play by the time the cut is complete, effectively eliminating the chance of kickback. The carriage will carry the piece straight thru even after the fence is no longer in contact.David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
The only time that right vs left affects kick back is obviously when you are cuting a bevel. When the fence is on the right and the blade tilts right the material is caught between the blade and the fence. It only happened to me once. To this day I do not know how I did it but I managed to have the the piece fly back just beside me. I put an impressive dint in the wall 10 ft behind me. This was on my first Rockwell contractor saw. My second saw was an Inca with an excelent splitter & guard. (some Europeon manufactuers call it a riving knife) Being a tilting table any bevel cut was a significant challenge. I loved the spliter and Guard on that saw. Both remained in place for the 20 years I used the saw for every operation except dados.When I decided to purchase my General cabinet saw I went with the left tilt because of what I had read and my previous experience - I can not explain how it happened just what happened to me. I am totaly happy with my saw except the blade guard/splitter. I have removed the guard. It is a pain. For the moment I have kept the spliter. It gets in the way but I will not use a table saw without the splitter based on the several near misses I had with my first table saw that had both right tilt and no splitter. I have looked carefully at several of the aftermarket spliters but have not yet made up my mind which one to buy. I know that it is very common practice to remove the splitter. I see finally that some of the manufacturers are starting to improve the designs - Saw stop and Powermatic but they still have some work to match the Europeon machines in this regard. I know this sounds like I am obsessive about this but I have been woodworking as a serious hobyist for over 30 years. I still have all ten fingers and I intend(touch wood) to still have all ten 30 years from now. I realize that there are a lot of woodworkers that are very happy with their right tilt. To me the difference is real but it is probably more important to get a good quality splitter as most of the time the blade is straight up! I appologise for the lecture. I must have had a bad day!Gear
Whats better,.......
A Benz......
or an $80,000 Luxus??
My point is,..
I'm a lefty by nature, meaning, if I need to have any kind of precision while cutting,
I'll choose my left hand as the lead.
My delta contractor TS is a right tilt, and I prefer it that way.
If you can't avoid kickback (God forbid), you'll prefer being on the opposite side when
pieces fly.
I live in Drummondville Canada (home of General tools).
I can get an "official" answer locally if you'd like.
This is my first post on FWW, so contact me via my hotmail account...
Seasons greetings....
Perry... [email protected]
Yes, do the advanced search for the previous discussion. There were lots of good contributions.
I have a right-tilt. I would prefer left-tilt. From my perspective, there are only two reasons to have a right-tilt saw: using a sliding miter table or the price is too good to pass up. I have the latter reason.
Cadiddlehopper
There are pros and cons to each design, and it boils down to a matter of preference. I've owned both and my preference is for left tilt, but I don't see it as a significant enough issue to kill a great deal on a saw I want.
My favorite aspect of a LT saw is that the thread orientation for the arbor nut is normal and it's installed from the right side...being right handed, that's easier for me that trying to thread a nut with reverse threads with my left hand. I also prefer the fact that the teeth of the blade are further away from my hand when the blade is beveled...
seemikesaw,
I can't begin to tell you the troubles I've had with Delta.. terrible service, promises made and not kept, had to listen to a lecture from customer service. not to begin to mention the hassles I've had with their saws (in the end I actaully gave it away! )
I bought Grizzly and have been pleased as punch since.. My table is big enough that I can lower the blade and move the guide to the left or right side of the blade and still make a cut 20+ inches wide! Sure the stuff comes from China but so what so do most of the saws made. (yes Delta)
Funny. My experience with Delta has been just the opposite. I have quite a few Delta products and only have had one problem in 2003 (?), I broke the Unisaw switch box off by accidently hitting it with my knee. One 10 minute call to Delta, (date bought, part number, name, address, etc) and two (2) days later, a new switch by Fed EX at no charge!
I understand, that Delta was horrible with customer service for about 5 years when they were doing a major reorg. Is that when your problems occurred?
I'm happy you are happy now with your Grizz. but my experience (1) has been great!
BTW, for the benefit of the original poster, my Unisaw is 5 hp, left tilt with right hand extension and outfeed. I chose the left tilt since it doesn't pinch for kickback when cutting bevels. And yes, for others, if the rear of the blade pinches the board between it and the fence, it WILL throw the board back at you on both a left and right tilt! It has happened to me twice. Not exactly pinching but allowing the rear of the cut to rise up!
Luckily, no injury except to pride and the wood piece. <grin>
A bad day woodworking is better than a good day working -- yes, I'm retired!
I would buy a General before buying a Delta.
In these right/left discussions I often read about a cutoff being between the blade and the fence. The fence is set a specific distance from the blade to produce a specific sized piece. The cut off is on the other side of the blade - not between the fence and the blade.
For example if I want a piece 10 inches wide with a bevel on one edge I rough cut a piece 11 inches wide and then tilt the blade to the right. I set the fence 10 inches to the right of the blade. When I cut, the piece 10 inches wide is between the blade and the fence. The cutoff is not trapped - it's to the left of the blade.
Quite true, but there are dozens of situations where this is impractical. If you are ripping a wide board into narrow strips, beveled or not, the narrow cutoff will be free between the blade and the fence. If you're taking a 2" rip off a sheet of ply, you're pushing the sheet, not the 2" part. Etc...
David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
If you're cuttimg a 2" strip off a full sheet of plywood you set the fence at a little less than 46" and push the sheet through supported by your saw main table and auxilliary table - why would you set the fence at 2 inches and then try to balance a full sheet out in space? This is why saws have a 50 inch rip capacity.
I would consider this a rough cut because of having to handle the size and weight of a full sheet so I would cut oversize and then recut the 2 inch piece to final size. I sure wouldn't try to cut an accurate bevel on a 2" strip off a full sheet in one cut on a typical size cabinet saw without help on the outfeed end.
In my shop if I needed a 2 inch strip with a bevel the full length of a sheet I would cut a 3 inch strip off the sheet while it was clamped to my bench using a rip guide on my skill saw. Then I'd joint one edge of the strip and finally cut the bevel on the table saw.
I have no problem cutting a bevel on my right tilt saw with the fence to the right of the blade. The saw is well aligned and the cut is accurate with no binding or burning. I believe I get a more accurate bevel with the right tilt as there is less chance of the blade lifting the workpiece. A blade suitable for this type of cut is essential as well.
Well, let's chalk it up to another case of misguided assumptions. It seems I too often presume that our starting points are all the same. I run a business and the clock is always ticking. There's no way that I'm going to make 2 cuts in order to get that strip to the right size when I can do it in one. Maybe it seems trivial, but multiplied by 100 it's no joke.If you're making small moldings, you would run the edge of a board through the shaper (or router table) to get the profile, then rip it off on the TS, no? I've got 400' of beading to prepare tomorrow, and about an hour to do it in. You can be sure I'm going to rip those thin pieces on the TS. As a matter of fact my saw is also right-tilt. All sliders are. I was making the case for left-tilt standard saws being less prone to kickback incidents. The fact that you would skirt the situation by ripping it first with a Skilsaw is good evidence that you actually do see the problem. But that's not a viable business solution for someone who needs to turn out a lot of cabinets every day. BTW, our website really needs to be redone, but I posted the link anyway because I think it's important for people to get an idea of where someone is "coming from".
David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
David Ring,
I enjoyed viewing your website - it's always great to see other's designs.
Thank you,
Corners
You might also want to look at the new Powermatic with the riving knife. Don't know how good or bad the Delta is vs. the Powermatic, but I do know this: The most dangerous part of using a tablesaw is kickback. I've owned an Inca with a riving kife (unfortunately no longer made) for the past 15 years. It has never kicked back. Also own a Felder with a riving knife.
Table saw blades move at around 125 mph. A riving knife is the ONLY way to prevent kickback. Having once had a Craftsman saw throw a piece of wood through my basement drywall, I personally would not buy a saw without a riving knife.
Should have mentiond that a riving knife is not the same thing as a splitter. A riving knife cuves around the back of the sawblade. Properly adjusted it is less than a quarter inch from the teeth.
A splitter is a straight piece of metat that does much the same thing. However a splitter is less effective.
I have a PM66. I have never beveled the saw for rip cutting. I would get a Rt if doing it again.
This one might as well be "Ginger or Maryanne" LOL
(Maryanne by a long shot)
John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
The more things change ...
We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams, we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.
Petronious Arbiter, 210 BC
I looked and looked for many months when it came time to get a serious table saw and finally decided on a General that comes out of Canada. I bought it because Fine Woodworking.com had good things to say about the saws, it was on sale, and the shipping cost was low. I got a large cabinet model for less than $1000 and that includes shipping. Delta makes some good equipment but their more professional type tools are too expensive. My advise is don’t get hung-up on the big name brands when you’re looking for a saw. Several companies make quality saws and you don’t have to pay them extra for their name. I wish SawStop would sell their safety technology to all the companies. I love the idea of not being able to cut off a finger but it’s just too expensive. So I guess I’ll just have to be extra safe. By the way, so far I’m happy with the General.
I've used both right and left tilt and left tilt is definitely safer. By the way, several years ago when I was going to upgrade to a Unisaw, I ended up buying a Powermatic 66. Find a dealer who has both and I think you'll make the same choice when you see them side by side.
Take a close look at the Saw Stop product. I had a Unisaw and cut the end of my left index finger off about 6 months ago. Sold my Unisaw the next week and bought a Saw Stop. Much better designed and built product than the Unisaw or Powermatic or General. The safety features are ourstanding. Yes it costs a little more, but how much is a trip to the ER room worth. Or in my case - how much is the end of my finger worth. The blade tilts to the left.
I agree. If you lose a part of your body in a table saw accident, the extra money spent to buy a SawStop is money well spent. However I can't afford the best of everything and there is always going to be a safer saw, a safer car, a safer everything. One has to draw the line at some point and hope for the best. I just wish the SawStop people would sell their safe saw technology to all the companies instead of trying to build their company from the lost digits of all the people who can’t afford the best. In other words they have invented ground breaking technology that is similar to car airbags. If only one car company owned the rights to car airbag technology, wouldn’t it make sense for them to sell that technology to all the car companies and get rich in the process, or hang on to the life saving technology on the hopes it will make their company while people who can’t afford their top quality cars continue to die?
The SawStop folks *first* tried to sell their technology. The big-boys were not buying. So, they did the next best thing -- and built a saw with their technology -- and one-upped Delta et al with the final product. Not only does it stop -- but it’s a better saw in every way. <!----><!----><!---->
It has a bigger table, riving knife, the trunnions system is an improved design, and I like the adjustability of the saw, it has great sawdust removal -- it’s just better in all ways. I had a US-made Unisaw before. Great saw but the SawStop is better. <!----><!---->
It was also the only tool I bought that my wife actually encouraged me to buy. Yes, its more expensive -- but if I lost the ability to use my hand my employment would be at risk. The peace-of-mind it gives my wife is worth more than I paid for the saw.<!----><!---->
I did not know Sawstop first tried to sell to the big boys. Well I hope they put the big boys under!
The big boys did not buy Sawstop technology for the same reason that you didn't -- they considered it too expensive. I feel certain that it was overpriced since the seller is a lawyer. He is now trying to get his technology mandated by the US government.Cadiddlehopper
Very interesting story! I'd love to hear all the details.
If I remember, someone posted the story on Knots, as a link, as I remember. It might have been in FWW.Cadiddlehopper
Several years ago,the inventor of the Sawstop did petition to get some regulations enacted that would have favored his product, but the petition was denied and I don't believe that they are actively persuing the matter.
John W.
As of Sept. this year he was still actively persuing it. Here's a link to the Bloomberg article.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&refer=news&sid=aaomG4adRvHY ------------------------------------
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools. -- Herbert Spencer (1891)
Just my two cents...
I prefer left tilt saws not only for the previously mentioned safety attributes, but also in the bevel-rip situation, typically your fence is to the right of the blade and with a left tilt, the point of your miter (typically your outside corner) is on top. This results in a nice, crisp corner without tearout or chips, crucial for veneer ply.
The same results with a right tilt require either a narrow rip with the fence to the left, or you end up ripping with the wrong side (the waste side) against the fence, typically with the fence close to the blade.
And as an aside, when ripping repetitive narrow rips off sheet stock, you should still be pushing the narrow piece through the cut with a pushstick to clear the back of the blade. Otherwise, at best you simply get saw marks on the the last several inches; at worst you get the narrow piece rifled back at you via kickback.
Also, SawStop is cheap insurance, and still a bargain, but the technology is still no replacement of sound safety procedures.
Lastly, don't rule out the European machines, either; their safety measures are well beyond the typical cabinet saw's, and especially if you're considering an add-on slider, it's no contest. The Europeans have mastered the sliding tablesaw, simply put. They truly make safe and accurate work a matter of course. Look at Hammer, Rojek and some of the Minimax machines for entry-level sliders, and Felder has a new 500 series of machinery that is less expensive than their 700 and 900 machines. Also, Laguna's TS/S looks to be a fine piece, although there are diverse opinions of their sales and service (no personal experience).
Be safe and enjoy your new toy,
Tim
Mike,
I also have an old saw and in early March (right after the big woodworking show in St.Paul, MN) I am going to buy a SAW STOP cabinet. I've done quite a lot of research as this is an expensive saw. If you read the independent tests and then go to the SAW STOP website and view the videos and lastly go see the saw in person, I think you will come to a safe conclusion. I was talking with my boss (I'm an industrial electrician with 40 years in the trade) and he said that he couldn't see spending the extra 1500-1700 for the blade stop feature. He said he would just be very careful when using a table saw without the saw stop feature and not spend the money. I asked him why bother to wear seat belts, just be careful. Anyway, check the saw out and see what you think.
Jerry
Hi, You need to check out the lefthand tilt sawstop saw if you buy anything else you will be foolish. It is an all around better built saw than all of them. Check it out on sawstop.com. It's more money but worth every cent. If you try it and see it work, you will say, Delta Who, Powermatic Who, Who are these people? Sawstop is much heavier built, has a riving knife for anti-kickback and a brake that will let you die with all your fingers intact, providing you have'nt lost them already!
We all remember the tools that we should have stayed with and not sold for some reason. I got rid of a right tilt 12" tablesaw with a cast iron fence no longer made, that was a big mistake.
I now have a left tilt Bridgewood LTS that is good after installing the Incra fence and ForrestWW2. Left tilt is ok but not that big of a issue to make me not go back to right tilt. Well designed push sticks, 0 clearance inserts and good shop lights are some tips from me for safety. You should never work a saw that is not well lighted. I have seen guys working in dark shops way too much. I have looked at the little kickback wheels for tablesaws but not had anyone say much about using.
First off lets be honest here. Most woodworker do NOT lose a finger to a table saw. And for the record my grandfather lost his fingers on his right hand starting with the complete pinky and ending with the pointer fully intact (it was some sort of angled cut) this happened back in the 19 teens sometime Say 1917 or so in West Virginia at a saw mill. So I do understand that this happens but it is not like it happens to every woodworker to ever use a "poorly designed" American table saw.
Is the saw stop a good idea? Yes. So is an air bag. But that being said I would not pay 50 grand for a car with an air bag when one with out it could be had for 25. I don't care how much safer I would be I just can not afford it. And if you really want to be as safe as you can be then maybe we should just avoid using a saw (or a car)
Also I have a question about accidental firings. I have heard and read a few things about this happening and at (from what I hear) about $60 a pop for the replacement part (not counting needing to buy a new blade) this could be an expensive safety devise. One oops and their goes $100 or more (hate to think about my new Dado set, with the fancy "no shims" adjustment taking the hit)
Remember not every thing works perfectly the first time it is put into production. I knew and engineer who was playing around with airbags back in the 60's and they just could not get them to be dependable and let us not forget that some first generation airbags caused a lot of problems with small people and kids.
NO I don't think this is an issue with Saw stop but I have yet to see any real evidence that this new saw and safety system is dependable. I have not seen any that it is not but even Sawstop admits that it CAN happen.
Doug Meyer
When I do decide to upgrade from my rt. tilt unisaw I will definately go with a lft. tilt, if nothing else there are some operations that just don't fly with a right tilt. Example; try to cut a back bevel on a reverse handed door. face up. It can't be done on a left tilt.
Yes it can - there was an article in FWW a few years back that shows how.
OK, now I,m curious , I can't find the article, could you please help shed a little light on this area for me and explain how? Maybe I don't need a new saw.
FWW #129 - page 63
This technique can be used for right tilt or left tilt - just reverse the setup.
Edited 12/23/2006 11:02 pm ET by corners
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