I have a project to do and part of the work is to remove the popcorn from the ceiling of several rooms. The ceilings have been painted. I applied water before begining to scrape, it had little to no effect. What has worked for other people before? Your help is appreciated.
Discussion Forum
Get It All!
UNLIMITED Membership is like taking a master class in woodworking for less than $10 a month.
Start Your Free TrialCategories
Discussion Forum
Digital Plans Library
Member exclusive! – Plans for everyone – from beginners to experts – right at your fingertips.
Highlights
-
Shape Your Skills
when you sign up for our emails
This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply. -
Shop Talk Live Podcast -
Our favorite articles and videos -
E-Learning Courses from Fine Woodworking
-
-
Replies
Have you had it tested for asbestos?
------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
No, I have not had it tested for asbestos. Where does one go to do that?
You should be able to find testing labs in any metropolitan area. Go to http://yp.yahoo.com/ and do a search on asbestos.
How old is the house? If it's newer than about 1980, the likelihood of asbestos in the popcorn ceiling is extremely small. If you do have it tested and discover asbestos, don't try to remove it yourself--all you'll end up doing is spreading it throughout the house.
-Steve
Don't get spooked by the dreaded word asbestos. If you are going to add another layer of sheetrock, then testing is actually counter productive.
Asbestos is ONLY dangerous when it is in the air or loose on surfaces. If you suspect asbestos, your best bet - probably your best bet anyway - is to have another layer of sheetrock put over what's up there already.
Advantages include - now any potential hazard is nullified by being behind a significant barrier that is in no potential of being breached - the fire insulation value is improved, etc, etc.
Something to think on, anyway.
Mike D
How big an area? You might want to pull it down. Scraping could be a nightmare and if you tear much of the paper you could end up with a new problem patching tears. Nice to hear someone else has been side tracked from woodworking. I have a new slider I have to stay away from until I finish mudding my dining, living and entrance rooms. I did a bunch of patching to one wall and after all is said and done I probably could have torn out the old drywall and put up new. Just a thought. I will not add to the doom and gloom post about asbestos ha!ha!
Brad
Two rooms one is 16x16 and the ceiling is vaulted with double layer rock. The other room is 18x24 with vaulted ceilings and double rock. I would hate to take all of that down.
You don't have to take it down, just put new sheetrock over it, or put a fresh layer of joint compound over the entire surface and give it a hand plastered look.The popcorn is embedded in the paint, short of stripping the paint with chemicals it can't be removed, except by heavy sanding which will leave you with a damaged surface on the sheetrock and a lot of potentially hazardous dust. Asbestos isn't likely, but can't be completely ruled out except by testing. Covering the particles with new rock or compound avoids any asbestos questions or the need to remove it.John White
John,
Begging to differ with you statement "...asbestos isn't likely...". The truth of the matter is that asbestos is more then likely. Popcorn texture was generally made using vermiculite, a mined material. It has become common knowledge that many of the mines that produced vermiculite were contaminated with asbestos. Most of the mine owners were aware of this issue yet chose to conceal that small bit of information from the general public and deny the fact. W.R. Grace was one of the biggest violators of this entire issue, they owned and operated many vermiculite mines in the US. Nchiguy needs to proceed with extreme caution if he cares about his or his families health at all. Liability with relation to this issue is sky high and can be incredibly expensive if it is mishandled.
"Popcorn texture was generally made using vermiculite, a mined material."
There are (at least) two kinds of popcorn. The vermiculite-based kind is easily recognized, because you can see the "glitter" from the bits of mica. The other kind is made with styrofoam beads, and has no glitter (and should have no asbestos, either, of course).
In addition to asbestos from the popcorn itself, some older formulations of drywall compound contain asbestos, too.
-Steve
The glitter would be a lot easier to see, if it wasn't painted. Most popcorn texture is a lot older then 1989 and therefore should be very suspect for asbestos. My issue was from JWW of the FWW staff saying rather cavalierly that the gentleman had nothing to worry about. I have been a licensed contractor/carpenter for the last 12 years and around construction off and on for a lot longer. Have had more then a few potential clients who have wanted me to make the asbestos go away for a small charge, instead of paying the experts in the moonsuits. They want me to believe that they would never sue me if there was an issue later. Yeah right. I have walked away from a couple of choice jobs over that very attitude.The potential for asbestos is not something to take lightly.
And of course there is the, " cork" version. Most ceilings blown with aristex is nothing more than sheetrock mud. You get it in a 40lb. bag. Mix to consistancy, add the grade of cork you want, fine, medium, or large. Mix again, and let stand for 30 min. Load the hopper then shoot. Most of the time flat ceiling paint is added to the mix, becuase the aristex dries grey. Adding the paint to the mix elimnates the need to go back and paint later. Like I mentioned in another post, most builders wont spend the money to prime out the rock. So adding paint to the mix gives them two hits at once. Painted product in one application and the paint adds a slight adhesion.
BigK,
You seem to know a lot about asbestos, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that after the U.S. banned asbestos in 1989, it was no longer used in construction. The mine in Libby was closed in 1990, although W.R. Grace still faces legal troubles.
So, nchiguy, what year was your house built? If it's after 1990, asbestos would not be an issue. If it was before, I would get it tested before you make dust out of it. Call your favorite home inspector. However, you don't need to worry about it at all if you're just going to cover it up with new sheetrock.
Josh
Josh,
Read 39761.23. I am not an expert, but have been around long enough to have learned more then I want to know about asbestos. The hazards related tend to last far longer then cleaning up after a removal job. That includes those blood thirsty lawyers who seem to thrive on blame and claim for whatever. The gentleman who posed the question that started this thread did say later that his house was built in the 60's. I think that when JWW said that nchiguy(?) had nothing to worry about, he clearly demonstrated a severe lack of knowledge with regards to the subject. His advice was potentially very dangerous for both nchiguy and anyone around him. Then there is the issue of there are already two layers of sheetrock on that cieling. A third layer could probably make a bad situation much worse.
What I said was that sanding would create "a lot of potentially hazardous dust. Asbestos isn't likely, but can't be completely ruled out except by testing.", which is an accurate statement.
I never said "he shouldn't worry about it." In fact, I went on to say that he would be better off to cover the popcorn rather than trying to remove it, which is both legal and safe when carried out properly.
I am, in fact, quite knowledgable on the subject of asbestos and its removal. For a number of years I was licensed in both Vermont and New York state to both teach asbestos removal and to actually supervise and dispose of asbestos. During that time, in the early 90's, I worked as a supervisor and consultant on a number of very large remediation jobs in paper mills and factories.
There is a tremendous amount of misinformation floating around about the risks of asbestos, its prevalence, and the practical and legal problems of removing and disposing of it. In almost every case I am aware of, the risks, problems, and complexity and costs of disposal turned out to be wildly inflated.
A minor correction, I am no longer on the staff of Fine Woodworking Magazine.
John White
FOR the love of the Lord: what on earth is this painted popcorn ceiling? It sounds as though it would be better to burn down the whole house.Philip Marcou
philip,
It was/is a 70's style of ceiling that was popular, at least in the States.
http://www.ronhazelton.com/howto/popcorn_ceiling_removal.htm
Some of the older, pre 1980 versions contained asbestos. Nasty stuff as I'm sure you know.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
...I am no longer on the staff of Fine Woodworking Magazine...I am sorry to hear this. Their loss, I'll miss your writings. Good luck in your new endeavors.Jeff
Asbestos isn't likely,....
Asbestos? Can be a problem, but I think it is negligible as long as you keep the surface wet, wear a mask, get yourself one of those cheap tyvek suits, and put down plastic sheets on the floor to capture the debris. If you're safety obsessed have it tested, and if asbestos is present, don't do it if you have children in the house.
I disagree. Asbestos was very common as the primary ingredient on many "popcorn" ceilings thru about 1979. And it continues to be a problem with vermiculite based "popcorn" now. I certainly would not take the advice from this person, and DIY if it did contain asbestos. I believe that a storm related failure of a popcorn ceiling caused my Grandmothers fatal cancer.
In most areas, a roof truss is designed to handle a live load of 40 to 50 pounds per square foot, for snow and wind loading. Adding a couple of pounds per square foot of an additional dead load isn't especially significant. With cathedral ceilings the weak point is usually poor or non existent cross ties.
But, you are not adding a roof load, are you? You are adding a ceiling load. Apple and oranges
In this case the ceilings are vaulted, which was mentioned briefly way back in this discussion, where you might not have seen it, so the roof joist is also the ceiling rafter.Virtually all asbestos related cancers have turned up in workmen who have had long histories of repeated exposure at levels that would almost never be seen outside of a work environment. The type of cancer that asbestos causes is rare but not unknown in people that have had no known exposure to asbestos. Also, asbestos was a commonly found item throughout both the home and industrial environment prior to the 1960's, there would have been many chances for your grandmother to have been exposed throughout her lifetime. I can go to any tag sale at an older home and find a few items from the kitchen, basement, or work shop that contain asbestos. I can remember buying loose powdered asbestos by the pound at a small town hardware store in the 1950's.John W.
John,
Just because a ceiling is vaulted does not mean that it is not a truss system. It could be a scissor truss, not a rafter system.
The thought occurred, but a truss is treated as a single unit for most structural analysis, it would matter little if the weight were added to the roof deck or to the ceiling.The fact that the ceiling has a double layer of sheet rock, one of which is 5/8 inch thick, suggests that the structure had to comply with commercial or multiple unit fire codes, was professionally engineered, and should easily handle the added weight. If adding one more layer of sheet rock overloads the roof framing system, he's already in big trouble.John White
John:Wise words indeed on the inflated risk of asbestos. I once spent some time in an asbestos remediation lab with an electron microscope, looking at the bad fibers and the much more common neutral fibers. Also talked with the guys about their special asbestos landfills, which they loved, because the stuff is inert rock and does nothing at all once it is in the ground except occupy space.It is generally agreed that the asbestos scare was vastly out of proportion, and that the wildly expensive, government mandated and sometimes subsidized cleanups did much more to improve the financial health of trial lawyers and remediation firms than they did to improve public health. Still, one is better off to be be safe, I am sure.That said, we scraped our ceiling, left it rough, and hung thin sheetrock with leveling batons and a careful job of taping and bedding the joints. It worked. Looks great.Joe
Amen to that. Asbestos is occasionally a hazard and needs to be treated with respect until the degree of risk and chance of exposure are known but the amount of misinformation and hysteria I've seen were beyond belief in some cases.We always referred to the asbestos laws as the "Industrial Hygenist Full Employment Act".Regards, John
Re asbestos "the amount of misinformation and hysteria I've seen were beyond belief "
Amen to that!
Mike D
ya that's what I'd do. Rip it off and re-board it.
Gives one other benefit too. You can replace the old thin vapor barrier that was used. I salvaged a bunch of ceiling board and wasted hours fiddling with tape to patch the thin vapor barrier used in the old days.
Brad
If it's been painted it's probably more work to try to get the popcorn off and smooth out what's left of the drywall than to just replace the drywall outright.
-Steve
My stepdaughter and husband did this in the bedroom of her newly purchased house. Wow, what a project. They simply used water. Maybe more than you did? Definitely get it checked for asbestos!
I'm faced with the same project e.g. getting rid of popcorn ceiling. Seems going over the existing drywall adds a LOT of weight. Is this an issue with the trusses? Can you reface with 3/8 drywall to lessen the weight or will that be too wavy?
There's been a lot of discussion on popcorn ceilings over at Breaktime. I'd try doing a search over there. I don't recall if 3/8 drywall was ever mentioned, but if it doesn't show up in the search I'm sure you could ask and someone would answer.
There are generally two ways to deal with a popcorn textured ceiling; this assumes you have no reason to demo the existing ceiling:1) As suggested before, simply apply another coat of sheetrock over the existing ceiling. I would not use 3/8. since it is likely to sag slightly over time (between the ceiling joists). 1/2" is sufficient, 5/8 is better. If there are junction boxes in the ceiling (for light fixtures) you can install extensions, called mud rings, but usually you can get by with just using longer screws to reinstall the fixture. 2) You can wet down the ceiling using a garden sprayer, then scrape off most of the texture -- or at least the loose particles. Then you can skim coat the entire ceiling. However, this is not a typical job for a DIYer; better to hire a pro, who can do it fast with very little sanding required after. To find someone, your best bet is to call a commercial drywall contractor, and ask if they have anyone who would moonlight the job.Asbestos? Can be a problem, but I think it is negligible as long as you keep the surface wet, wear a mask, get yourself one of those cheap tyvek suits, and put down plastic sheets on the floor to capture the debris. If you're safety obsessed have it tested, and if asbestos is present, don't do it if you have children in the house.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Edited 1/24/2008 2:24 am by nikkiwood
Water usually works if the ceiling hasn't been painted. Once the popcorn has been sealed to the ceiling with paint, it's much more difficult to remove.
-Steve
There will be no problem, "IF" the ceiling was painted with, " FLAT" paint. Still, it is a mess. On ceilings that I've done, the reason the client wanted to remove it was becuase the aristex was coming down anyway. When this occurs its a 99% chance the sheetrock was never primed to begin with. Most builders have the rockers add ceiling paint to the aristex and shoot it. With NO sheetrock primer first coat. This why it falls off so easy. If this is the case, scraping is all thats needed. But sanding will be neccessary on the joints. For it bonds there better than raw, or unprimed sheetrock.
"IF", the ceiling is painted with anything other than, " flat" paint, you would do good to just rock over the existing ceiling. IF you don't want to go to the trouble of replacing the existing one.
Good luck, what ever you end up doing.
Removing popcorn has been a "niche business" around here for a long time and I've done enough of it to know that it ain't much fun!! - lol
Based on my experiences:
Houses built after the mid-70's are very unlikely to have any asbestos in the popcorn. Checking is a good thing and IIRC, there are DIY test kits available.
Scraping popcorn is an incredibly messy job. It's best to completely empty the room and spread drop cloths over the entire floor. I use those plastic backed, paper drop cloths and just roll them up with the popcorn when I'm done.
Painted popcorn can be scraped, but it can be more of a hassle. I use a pump sprayer with hot water and - sometimes - a little TSP to wet the popcorn before scraping. I spray an area to the point of slight dripping and let it sit for a minute before I start. You'll quickly develop a "feel" for the right amount of spraying. When you get it right, the popcorn comes off in sheets.
I use drywall taping knives for scraping. A 24" knife for the large areas and a 4" knife for the corners and difficult spots. I file the sharp corners down to prevent digging into the drywall.
You WILL ding the ceiling some and those spots will need to be skimmed over before painting.
When the popcorn is gone, you'll see just how badly the ceiling was taped when it was first done. The tapers knew that it would get sprayed so they stopped with a quick cost of mud over the taped seams and nail/screw indents. The popcorn hid everything. - lol
Skimming the ceiling to get a smooth surface for paint can be a lot of work, so most folks around here go for a fine texture.
Have fun!! - lol
Thanks for the input. I have done newer homes where the ceiling had not been painted. This house is a 1960's built. I have sent off sample to my clients friend who does asbestos testing and clean up (in another city/state). Based on the results, I will either scrape or cover.
Cover the existing with 1/2" sheetrock. Don't scrape anything. That's what I would do if it were my home.
Paul
It is already double sheetrocked. If the original was 5/8 inch stuff, another layer of 1/2 inch rock would make it 1 3/4 inches thick. That is a lot of drywall and a lot of weight up there. Perhaps he could take the outer layer of drywall down and finish the remaining layer.
Two layers of sheetrock on the cieling already. Makes me wonder why there are two layers there already in a 40 something year old house. Really don't think that a third layer is a good answer for this problem.
Ah. I must have missed that detail. Two existing layers. That puts a different spin on it, doesn't it. Testing is inevitable at this point. More than likely it will all end up coming down . No easy solution :(
Paul
In most areas, a roof truss is designed to handle a live load of 40 to 50 pounds per square foot, for snow and wind loading. Adding a couple of pounds per square foot of an additional dead load isn't especially significant. With cathedral ceilings the weak point is usually poor or non existent cross ties.
John White
"-- a roof truss is designed to handle a live load of 40 to 50 pounds per square foot ---."
And down deep I suppose I knew that and in many cases the drywall gives added strength and stability, but still one and three quarters inches of drywall thickness seems excessive and it will take a long screw to penetrate the supporting joist or rafter.
I have been away from the computer for a few days. I was surprised at how many more responses ther are. A few updates. I have sent off the samples for testing. The 2 layers of sheetrock are both 1/2 inch. Once I understand what I am dealing with I will decide on scraping, removal of one layer (if possible) or covering with another 1/2 inch layer of rock.
To all who offered their advice, thanks!
If you want to remove instead of covering, use a garden sprayer and apply water until it soaks in thoroughly. If painted over with latex, the water should eventually penetrate. If painted over with oil based paint, good luck.
Spackle, spackle, spackle!!!
In our previous house I spackled the entire hallway on both floors to get rid of sand paint on plaster walls, not sheetrock.
In an apartment with concrete ceilings, the ceilings were scraped and then a skim coat of spackle to make it smooth.
In the house I did it
In the apartment the contractors people did it.
ASK
We just did this in a 20x20 cathedral vaulted room. Horrors! The floor was being replaced (long story), and while I was out for a week of hunting, my wife decided the popcorn must die. She asked around and was advised to use water. Must not have used enough. It looked incomplete and awful when I got home, and her wrists were almost too sore to use. Besides that, the original ceiling had waves and bad taping all hidden by the blown finish.
We hung new sheet rock over it, using lath to level and flatten as we went. Then we applied three coats of mud, sanding between. the outcome is a nice ceiling, but we have decided the other rooms of the house can keep their popcorn for a good long time. to come.
Joe
Another issue that I don't think has been mentioned is disposal. If the material does contain asbestos, you can't just throw it on the curb or take it to the dump. Some areas have VERY strict rules about who can work with it and how asbestos can be removed and where and what type and how much of it can be disposed in a certain time period.
Another thought, once tested, it must be disclosed when selling the house.
We have one of those sparkly popcorn ceilings in our living room. My wife's afraid of it, but it's in good condition, and when she saw all the bureaucracy involved in removing it, she decided we can live with it.
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled