Replies

1. 
   forestgirl | Feb 05, 2008 12:47am | #1

   "I tried re-amalgamation of the shellac, using denatured alcohol, but either I was too enthusiastic, or the shellac too far gone, as it ended up coming off in lots of places."  If you go with straight DNA, it will remove the shellac.  The refinishers of which you speak are mixes of DNA and lacquer thinner, which you can mix yourself.  50:50 is a good place to start.

   It's hard for me to envision what your chair looks like right now.  If it hadn't been touched yet, I'd recommend using an escalation approach, starting with simply mixing shellac with 4 parts DNA, brushing on (in the direction of the grain) in one section and let it sit for a few hours.  If later iinspection shows a surface you can live with, you're on your way home. (In theory, the DNA in this mix dissolves and redistributes the alligatored finishes and adds to it a bit)  If it's better but not yet acceptable, you could try one more coat.  If that doesn't work, the new coats of shellac can be removed easily.

   If you want to continue to use a "refinishing" solution, I'd recommend trying it with a little more than 50% laquer thinner, lessening the aggressiveness of the DNA.

   Is there any chance that some of the "black" is actually decades of dirt?

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-) 

   
   

   ---

   Edited 2/4/2008 4:49 pm by forestgirl

1. 
   Baatbygger | Feb 05, 2008 10:34am | #2

   Hi, Forestgirl,

   Thanks for responding. It's good to know that the "refinisher" can be made of DNA (denatured alcohol?) and laquer thinner. The directions said to rub it with 0000 steel wool, which ended up taking almost everything off, down to the wood, but leaving the wood reddish looking. Sofar I've unwittingly stripped the legs, stretchers and rockers, but have left the seat, arms, and back untouched, as I was getting a little freaked out by my handiwork, which led me to join the Knots forum.

   I, too, thought that the black might have been decades of accumulated dirt, so according to the advice of one book on furniture restoration--the same one that recommended the "refinisher," I tried cleaning it gently with a soft cloth dipped in mineral spirits. This did take some dirt off, as shown by a small accumulation on the cloth, but left the black on, along with the alligatored finish, leaving me to believe it was black stain or dye under the shellac. My grandparents willed me their dining room table of approximately the same vintage as this rocking chair, and it, too, was stained black. I guess those victorian/edwardians must have thought natural wood a bit too racy for their tastes.

   Your suggestion for re-amalgamation, by just brushing on the refinisher without the harsher steel-wool treatment, leads to a couple of further questions, if you wouldn't mind responding again:

   1) On the as-yet undisturbed upper section of the chair, providing your suggestion works and levels out the alligatoring, would you recommend using several coats of shellac, the 1st thinned 4:1 with DNA, the second maybe 50:50(?) and subsequent shellac full strength?

   2) On the underbody of the chair where I've already "refinished" it (and messed it up), I've bought one tube each of flat black watercolor and flat black acrylic, which I will try out on some scrap to see which color matches best the upper section of the chair. If that works, I then plan on giving it 2 or 3 coats of shellac, the first coat thinned somewhat with DNA.

   3) If it all turns out, for final protection of the chair I will give it a coat of a good quality furniture wax, like Antiquax or Fiddes, such as described in FWW # 191.

   Do you think I'm heading in the right direction with this plan, or about to complete the destruction of the rest of the finish?

   Thanks  so much for your help and advice.

   John

1. 
   forestgirl | Feb 05, 2008 07:35pm | #3

   Hi, John.  I have to confess that one of the reasons I got into woodworking was because I was tired of trying to re-hab old pieces of furniture without stripping them!  What little experience and successes I have are from years ago when I bought and sold vintage furniture and antiques.  Our discussion here is rapidly outstripping (pardon the pun) the extent of it.

   I did not have any pieces that responded completely to the simplest technique, brushing on the highly thinned shellac.  However, there's no harm in giving it a try on your rocker, as the results are easily removed if need be.  Not sure I would go beyond two applications though.  If the first 4:1 doesn't work, do one more.  If that works, maybe one coat of 50:50, but I probably wouldn't do any more than that.  People here will disagree, but I like the application of wax over these old shellaced pieces.

   I haven't worked much with dyes, only with TransTint dyes from Jeff Jewitt's web site.  I'm not sure how advisable either the watercolor (might not color much or last) or acrylic would be.  Before you put any dye on your rocker, it might be best to ask for some advice over at Jeff's forum, specific to the coloring.

   Going back in time, if you happen to tackle another piece needing "re-amalgamation" of an alligatored finish....  As you now know, straight DNA is too strong.  As to the steel wool, you want to use that to kinda move the stuff around, removing some of the finish and redistributing the rest, not really rubbing hard at all.  Detailed instructions should indicate the use of maybe 3 pieces of wool and pans of solution.  You move from one to the other, the first one getting very gunky rather quickly and needing to be changed out. 

   You're right about that particular vintage of furniture.  There was an age where seemingly everything was dark, dark, dark!  I didn't buy or sell much of that at all, because tastes were quite different in the 1990's when I was in business.  Sorry I can't give you info on how they did that furniture in the first place.

    forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-) 

1. 
   Baatbygger | Feb 05, 2008 10:33pm | #4

   Hi, Forest Girl,

   Again, thank you for all your input. I'll go take a look at Jeff Jewitts website. This is one of those projects that I naively thought would take a week. The rocker is an heirloom to its owner, so I'd prefer not to mess it up (if I haven't already); it makes for bad customer relations. I warned her I could do the structural repairs, but wasn't too sure about the refinishing, but she said to go ahead and try. At this point I wish I'd told her to take it to someone who knew what they were doing and stuck to boatbuilding, which I know a bit more about.

   The reason why I had the idea of using water colors to replicate the black on the chair is that I've have used it on masks I've carved, over the raw wood, and it takes quite well. Some of these masks are now between 25-30 years old and the color hasn't faded appreciably, even though there is no finish coat of varnish, etc. on top. In a call to the cabinet shop in Williamsburg museum, I talked to a fellow there who recommended acrylic, though I've not used that before myself.

   Thanks so much again for your help and advice. The best part of this screw-up is finding Knots and people like yourself!

   John

1. 
   forestgirl | Feb 06, 2008 02:06am | #5

   Best of luck with it, John.  Didn't realize it was for a client.  Yikes.  Jeff's site is a godsend.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-) 

2. 
   Baatbygger | Feb 06, 2008 09:01am | #6

   Hi again, Forest Girl,

   I put it on hold for today as it's been -10 for the past few days and I've practically used up more firewood keeping my old shop warm in order to work in it than the chair is worth! At least there are no mosquitos this time of year. But I think your advice has finally pointed me in the right direction; sometimes knowing where you're going is half the battle. Again, many thanks.

   John

3. 
   forestgirl | Feb 07, 2008 06:54am | #13

   "...as it's been -10 for the past few days and I've practically used up more firewood keeping my old shop warm in order to work in it than the chair is worth!"  Been there, done that, got the down vest!  ROFL!!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-) 

2. 
   Gretchen | Feb 06, 2008 04:51pm | #7

   Since the shellac took off the finish, it is indeed probably shellac. I know the finish you are dealing with--have a wonderful rocker that I stripped (and probably shouldn't have) that had it. That paint is probably a very very thin black paint. I think you could probably tint shellac black and have a good thin finish for this.
   IF you haven't removed too much of it, you might just wipe off with mineral spirits to clean it well and apply shellac over it to preserve.
   Have you removed the alligatored finish by now.

   I would not use Formby's on ANYthing.

   It would be helpful to see a picture.

   Gretchen
1. 
   forestgirl | Feb 06, 2008 07:26pm | #8

   Gretchen, although the whole Formby's thing is totally over-priced (the guy was a marketing genius if nothing else), I'd doubt that the solvent mixture is going to harm anything.  Don't know about anything else under that name, haven't used it.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-) 

1. 
   Gretchen | Feb 06, 2008 11:08pm | #9

   I don't know about "harm" but it won't do any good either, as he found out. And yes, he is a marketing genius.Gretchen

2. 
   Baatbygger | Feb 07, 2008 01:30am | #10

   Hi, Gretchen,

   After doing structural repairs to the rocker, I cleaned the whole thing with mineral spirtits. Some dirt came off on the cloth, but the alligatored finish remained. Then I wiped parts of it down with denatured alcohol, but according to Forrest Girl, I guess I wiped too hard, as some of the finish came off, confirming my feeling that it is probably shellac. The next mistake (as you point out) was my using Formby's "Refinisher;"  instead of blending in the alligatoring as it claimed it was supposed to, it removed most of the rest of the finish. Fortunately, I have sofar only worked on the legs, stretchers and rockers, so the seat and upper structure hasn't yet had any of my "improvements," but that is where the majority of the alligatoring is, mainly on the curved back above the spindles. The spindles themselves look dull, and I'm hoping that by brushing on slightly thinned shellac that they'll come back to life. 

   As you've probably read, Forrest Girl recommended my using a shellac thinned 4:1 with DNA. I'll try this concoction on the alligatoring to see if that cures it as soon as the weather warms up (it's currently +5 and a 20-30 mph wind, going down to -5 to -10 at night) and I can reasonably heat my shop. As I also mentioned, I've  bought a tube of lamp black water coloring that I plan to paint onto the stripped areas. I'd wondered if I could also mix it into the shellac, and thought I'd best try it first on a scrap of hardwood, so thanks for the tip on that. After this fiasco, I'd pretty much decided not to use Formby's again; your confirmation is appreciated, as I thought maybe it was just me. 

   It's been an interesting (translate: frustrating) project, and I thank you for your advice. I'll post a picture when and if it's ever complete.

   John

3. 
   integrity_woodworks | Feb 07, 2008 04:04am | #11

   hello Baatbygger   .I 'm also new to knots 'but restored furniture and millwork as aliving from1983  & still do some but only special peices whitch often involve saving the original finish. sounds like you are a little to far gone to save the finish at this point '&from the way you say the peice is black and flaking ,means the finish is what we call dead & is very likelly varnish! if you have some origianal area please try using liqiud TSP/ not the powder,use a cotton rag and some elbo greese in small circles changing you rag as it be comes black . never use DNA or any thinner un less you wish to re move the damaged top coat complettlly .you can use thinners, even a 50/50 mix with only  a rag &no sanding then a soft wash of 50% water/50% vinager & then top coat with a high qaulity oil based urethane whitch has a nice soft ambering . then finish with brown wax.     BEST of LUCK and ENJOY

1. 
   Baatbygger | Feb 07, 2008 10:52pm | #14

   Hi, Dan,

   Thank you for your response. I can't believe how many people have joined in with their help and advice. Maybe I mis-spoke about the finish flaking. There's one area on the back that has lost much of its finish, perhaps from being exposed to the sun, but it's more scuffed-looking than flaking, and the rest of the degraded areas either have alligatoring or little bumps and dull-looking. I've already cleaned the piece with mineral spirits, though the liquid TSP is a good suggestion If I ever (never?) get involved with this kind of project again. Because the finish came off with denatured alcohol, it leads me to believe that it is shellac rather than laquer or varnish. And as much as possible, I'd like to refinish the chair with what was put on originally, so I'll probably stick with shellac rather than urethane. But I will use the suggestion of a brown wax over all as protection.

   Thank you for your help,

   John

4. 
   integrity_woodworks | Feb 07, 2008 04:56am | #12

   Baatbygger ' mohawk does make some really nice alchol based stains that can be cut with aseton , but would need to be sprayed &then wiped back whitch reqiures some skill &experience. as well you would be best off to applie stain first to the areas you removed finish from , with a rag .then seal the whole peice with laqeur sealer(also mohawk) as the stain will likelly eat fresh shelac. then mix 15% black stain to sealer &tone to desired tone ,with tape over those woren areas you wish to keep. now re move tape rube(sand very softlly ) with400 grit dry-lube paper, now 2 coats of pre-catilized laquer I fined 35 sheen best. no wax! and laqeur drys to recoat ready in under an hour, makesure your coats are not to heavy.    If this sounds diffacult ? it is but  works well ,also to give more of an aged apperance you can rub the peice with 1200 grit paper once it has cured for atleat 10 days...    good luck!!!!