Hello All,
I’ll be doing my first dovetails soon. The first of many, many, I hope.
I’d appreciate any suggestions for a dovetail saw for a beginner? Go cheap? Go expensive? How many TPI?
Thanks!
-Jonnieboy
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Replies
You might want to try a Zona saw. The advantages are that it is cheap (about $12), and cuts very nicely. The disadvantage is that it has extremely fine teeth, and therefore cuts very slowly, but that's probably a good thing for a beginner.
Lee Valley sells them (do a search on "razor saw"), as do various hobby-oriented outlets.
-Steve
I'll second Steve's suggestion of Zona as a good place to start. LV, though, has a very limited selection. You might be better off with Zona's dovetail saw, 18 teeth per inch, and the only Zona that cuts on the push stroke. If you prefer the pull stroke, there's the Woodcraft at 14 tpi. Both will cut faster than the true razor saws. Here's a site (Canadian) that sells the full range, though there are probably others closer to you. While you're there you might look at the adjustable scroll saw (jeweller's saw) which is good for cutting out dovetail waste. https://stockade.ca/category.asp?cat=WCD&page=2
Jim
...and your suggestion for a blade for the adjustable jeweler's saw?
--Jon
The reason I said Jeweller's saw rather than coping saw is that Zonas have a thin kerf like Japanese saws. Olson scrollsaw blades are what I use. They come in a variety of patterns. You might want to follow the advice of Rob Cosman on which blade to use, and how to set it up: http://www.robcosman.com/tools_fret.php (Just watch the video -- the saw's a little expensive!) Even if you decide to graduate to a more expensive dovetail saw later, the Zona's useful to have for small miters, etc, and it won't break your heart if you drop it on a concrete floor. I have a Wenzloff that I use for most dovetails, and a Japanese saw that I sometimes use for half-blind cuts, and the Zona cuts look no different. They just take a couple of extra strokes.
Jim
I found both the dovetail and the adjustable fret saw at an online hobby store. I opted for the 18 tpi.
Thanks guys.
Jonnieboy
You might also consider a (mid-range, price-wise) Dozuki, the Japanese dovetail saw. Fine kerf, smooth cuts, and great control. I found them much easier to use than English-style dovetail saws, but not everyone agrees.
Hi Jonnie,
>How many TPI?
Well that depends on how thick your work is but for most medium thick work, 1/2", 5/8, 3/4 I like this saw :
http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?grp=1281
I was going to suggest this special 10 point rip before I read the other threads. Honest I am not posting this to be obtuse. I don't know about the saw for a beginner comment. I think it depends on the person and how much they are able to pick up subtlety. Learn a light touch to start the saw and how to guide the saw with your thumb to start it and you are no longer a "beginner" in just a few sessions.
This saw, even though it is lighter weight, is longer than the pistol grip dovetail saw 10 " verses 9 ". From using them both I decided I like the longer length.
After purchasing and tuning many, finer teeth saws I came to appreciate the coarser teeth. I think all the flailing in and out of the finer teeth, usually with too much set, allows the kerf to go all over the place. With the faster cut you get it going on the lines and down quick and you have a cut that is more accurate. Practice, practice, practice before working the actual wood for your project.
As it says this style is harder to start, but is very fast cutting.
The handle is a bit odd but not wrong. Just depends on the size of your hand.
I have several Japanese saws, the LN pistol grip saw, some gents saws, several others. I like the LN 10 tpi
Finer teeth for 1/4 thick etc but 10 for the medium stuff.
roc
Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 6/18/2009 1:36 am by roc
Edited 6/18/2009 2:04 am by roc
Thanks Roc,
Those LN's sure are beautiful.
I'll keep in mind your suggestion about a coarser blade while practicing.
--Jonnie
Jonnieboy,I come from a different perspective. I suggest a top shelf saw (eg. LN, Adria, etc.) because they will force you to handle them appropriately and provide the most feedback for improvement. I found a great similarity between learning to cut dovetails and learning to shoot pool; both require proper form and process. Both require a piston type movement where the small muscles are kept still and the large muscles do the work. The beauty of a top end saw is the grip almost forces you to handle is appropriately. Once you master the form almost any saw will do, however, there is a thing called muscle memory and picking up the same saw each time doesn't hurt. It'll help you remember some of your own personal quirks that you will want to avoid.
Jonnie,
After reading Chris Gochnour's review of dovetail saws (FW #183) I bought the Crown Dovetail saw (sold through highlandwoodworking.com) which was rated as best overall and best value. I love this saw. It is really nice and a easy to use. I am a beginner as well and this was the first and only dovetail saw that I have ever used. Since I am a beginner I definitely do not have the experience and technical knowledge that a lot of the rest of these guys have but it worked for me and it was right in my price range (about $20). So look into it and definitely take some time to read the article as he covered about 11 saws and he provides a lot of details about each one as far as ease of use, number of TPI, length, price etc. Hope this helps and good luck.
Nick
Nick,
Thanks for the tip on the article. You're right. Not only is it a "tool test," but it's also a great primer on dovetail saws. Now where was that article when I looked for it before posting my question?
I gather you got the pistol-grip, rather than the straight-handle grip? Is yours a pull-saw or push?
-Jon
No I have the straight handled "Gent's Saw" (In the article it is the first one under the straight handle section) I love it. It is a great little saw and it works for me. By the way it cuts on the push stroke. It cuts pretty fast but all of my dovetails are cut on stock that is 3/4 and under so if you are cutting thicker stock that would probably be something to take into consideration. I think that Chris mentions in the article that pistol grip saws are better for thick stock. Anyways have fun shopping around!
Nick
Johnnieboy,Dovetailing is not hard. It is like riding a bike. You do need to learn how, but there is little chance you will fail to learn how. All you have to do is practice. If I were you, I wouldn't worry about which say to buy or which blade to use. People use gents saws, cheap and expensive dovetail saws, oriental style dozukis, bow saws, etc. You can make dovetails on a table saw, a band saw, etc etc etc. Get the Frank Klauz video and watch him cut a complete dovetailed drawer in a few minutes. He doesn't even mark the tails. He just cuts them by eye. The trick is to make the pins fit the tails (if you cut the tails first).The trick to learning to cut dovetails is not which saw you use, but PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE.Then for the fun of it, start a few threads about which is the best dovetail saw, and maybe recommend that people look at Rob Cosman's new dovetail saw which has a Corian handle!!!!!!!! He really has one. I tried it out. You can generate long threads with the "which dovetail saw is best" topic, but after you have read one or two of them, they get pretty dull. It is more effective just to practice. Use thick wood, thin wood, hard wood, soft wood, etc. Read a few articles about how to fix your dovetail errors. Those are fun, and there lots of them. There is so much to read about dovetails that you may never get to actually practicing, which wouldn't be good.So what are you doing reading this message?
Get down to the shop, grab the first saw you see, and cut some dovetails.Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
My first was a Buck Bros. that cost $1.50 in 1973. It wasn't all that good but it worked. I went with the Crown gent's saw from then Highland Hardware around 1975 and used it for years before deciding to purchase the LN Independence DT saw. Used it about a year and tried a friends pull saw.
I discovered I preferred the pull stroke and went on search of a pull saw I liked. I found one in the Irwin 19 T pull with a back rib on the blade. I love the saw and bought another for $19 after selling the LN for almost what I paid so I don't have to bother with sharpening it. The Irwin is made in Japan.. surprise.. surprise with a pull saw.
My contention is you can cut DT's with about any saw that is sharp if you know the characteristics and you develop the technique. Can you tell the difference in an expensive DT saw and a cheap one? I have my doubts but I would guess that some will say you can.
So.. for anyone that thinks the difference is definitely distinguishable... which saw cut the DT's in the photo below? Or.. is the real difference just developing the technique with any given saw? Good question IMO.
Sarge..
Sarge,
The photo's too small. Give us a close-up and we'll tell you alright.
Jonnieboy
Not sure why as the original was larger. I have another I believe.. not sure what size as not really important but... I'll post anyway.
Edit.. ahh... there you go in the second picture. So... what saw and keep in mind I keep several serrated steak knives in the shop for specialty jobs. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Sarge..
Edited 6/18/2009 4:27 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
It ain't the meat, it's the motion! Nice DTs there, Sarge!
T.Z.
Thanks Tony.. I reckon even an old blind squirrel gets lucky and gets an acorn every once in awhile. :>)
Sarge..
Japanese pull-saw.
Neeext!
It's the Irwin 19 T which is made in Japan. I can't afford any of those Ginzu's steak knives.. my SK's are from Target and a clearance table and I have no doubt they're made in China. :>)
Now my K-bar and Bowie are a different story.. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Sarge..
Well, they sure look great.
I was kind of right. I had the Japan part right.
Jonnieboy
Ginsu knives originally came from Ohio. The company that markets them is from Rhode Island, and I think they are now made in Arkansas.
-Steve
The Ginsu? From the top left siverware drawer?
As you can see, there's no one answer to your question, partly because with a little practice you'll develop the skill to make any of these saws work just fine.
As for me, I started with a gents saw then bought the LN saw after a couple of years. I found that the gents saw tended to wander more when cutting. The difference could be additional heft of the LN saw or the grip (which fits my hand perfectly and I think gives you more control over the cut). Then again it could simply be that I got better at sawing a straight line.
In so much of woodworking, it seems hard to discern whether it's equipment or skill making the difference. As for myself, I suspect equipment is a relatively small part of the equation. I compare it to the difference between writing and photography. In writing all you need is a pencil and blank sheet of paper; skill is everything. In photography you can fool around with equipment and feel like you're doing something constructive but really you're just sharpening pencils.
I wish one could buy time as easily as equipment; I'd buy more of it and spend it getting more skilled.
I have a few saws that I've used for dovetails. I started with a Japanese Saw, it really wasn't my thing. I then received a Crown DT saw from Lee Valley... don't waste your money. The saw needed some serious tuning, something that was beyond my skill at the time.
After that I was given a LN Tennon saw (?) for Christmas, which I've been using for dovetails. The saw worked out of the box. I was very happy.
Finally this last Christmas I was given a Veritas DT saw. I really like this saw. It cuts as well as the LN, and costs about half the price. If you're looking for a reasonably priced western DT saw this is where I'd start.
I have a few Veritas tools and they are excellent. It's just hard for me to get used to seeing their new-age looking dovetail saw. Or, new-age/retro really.
I'm sure it's as fine as their other tools. And I'm also sure if I had it in hand I'd be used to it after about one side of one dovetail, eh?
--Jonnieboy
I actually kind of like the look of the saw... Probably the contrast between the modern material and the wood handle.
Buster,
Yeah, it's weird. I don't not like the look. It's just that every time I see it it still catches my eye. It's "arresting."
-jonnieboy
Years ago I bit the bullet (hard I might add) and bought an Independence Tool dovetail saw. Besides cutting beautifully and effortlessly it is a pleasure to hold. It took me a few years to save enough money to buy that saw and I have never regretted the purchase.
?first dovetail saw?
I'd not necessarily go cheap, I'd go freakin frugal.
The first experience is all about figuring out how it all works.
I doubt if any of the pundits and experts of the dovetail saw could suggest any saw with more TPI than a hacksaw blade (just don't get the wavy pattern.)
The hacksaw frame should not be sloppy, and if you happen to pick one up at a garage sale, take the old blade and grind a tapered edge on it and break it to lenght (very hard steel, so wear safety glasses when breaking it) wrap it with duct tape and if you got the sharpening right, you got a layout knife.
The chisels, well you cannot skimp on them. They simply have to take an edge and hold it.
But that will get you started.
Eric in Calgary
JB,
All you really have to be concerned about is how thin you want that kerf to be and then understand the way YOUR saw cuts.
Zona, Irwin Pull, Dozuki, Adria, LN, LV or Wenzloff. All great IF you know the individual saws characteristics and saw accordingly and you won't know that without practice. After that, you'll wonder what all the fuss was about. DT's are not rocket science.
I have most of the above - they just accrue over the many years, My ancient Sanvik 14 "fullback miter" and Craftsman "chromedge" Gent's saws, still work great. I have reservations about a hack saw blade, but that doesn't mean doodle, just me -- if it works - go for it.
Buy the best you can afford, get to know it and have done with it.
As to TPI- I feel above 20 is tedious and below 16 is a little to coarse and grabby and on really coarse grain woods can look a little torn out at the edges. Most TPI below 16 is on thicker blades with a wider set.
FWIW
BB
Boiler,
The comments here on Knots have been very helpful. I ordered the Zona 18 tpi, and I'll start with that.
Different people here have said it, and I think it's true, once I get the saw in my hands and actually start practicing I'll find my own preferences. It's so nice to have guidance in getting started.
-Jonnieboy
I suspect you will be happy with it.Bon ChanceBB
here is something to look at saw wise. I have no experience with them but he sounds like someone who cares and has generations of saw sharpening/experience to his credit:
http://wkfinetools.com/contrib/cSchwarz/z_art/wenzloff/wenzloff1.asp
roc
Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Roc,
Excellent article! Thanks for forwarding it. I'd never heard of the Seaton Chest, and I'm going to do a little more research on it.
I know well the places in and around Portland, Oregon he speaks of, having lived there. I mean, right there.
The saws sound like a dream to work with.
Jonnieboy
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