Radial Arm VS Sliding Compound Miter Saw
uncommontree
| Posted in Power Tools and Machinery on
Hello Everyone
I am having a tough time deciding.In placement of tools in my new shop which is 18×36. Putting a radial arm saw which is quite large would require one long wall to work at its peak ,were as a sliding compound miter saw like my Makita 1013 can be stored below the bench top till it is needed freeing up valued space.Is there any pros or cons you all can share with me about the use of a radial arm saw vs sliding CMS,I have both but space is at a premium.Thank you all
Rick ADESIGNS
Replies
Jack
I used a RAS for ripping once it seemed very unsafe,so I will stick to a table saw for all of my ripping.I would be very interested in any ideas for a space that can be used for both RAS and CMS .The radial arm is so heavy that moving it around is a two person job,this could be its one true limatation.If I come up with any great Revelations I will let you in on them,at this time my coffee has not yet kicked in.
Thanx Rick
FWIW, unless you have a huge RAS (long x-cut & 12"+ blade) a SCMS is prefered IMO. But if you like RASs have a nice shop to house it they can be usefull. But for all-around use SCMS would be my choice to replace my old 220 dewalt circa 1950ish RAS
Rick
A good slider is more popular, and finding a good RAS takes a bit. Not to mention a great deal more work in assembly and calibration. OTOH, I went with the RAS for the additional work it can do. No, I don't rip with it. However, cutting dadoes in a long 8/4 PT board for a stringer is difficult with a TS, but easy with the RAS. I also do some planing and molding. Accuracy is comparable (or better) once it's calibrated. Besides dadoes, I do raised panels and large coves.
On the flip side, the Makita is nice, while most RAS's out there are either junk, or need a bit of work. Between the Makita and a "typical" RAS, I'd go for the slider.
Gerry
Thank you everyone for your great ideas I do think I will keep both saws and incorporate them into the one long wall that I have left, this as per your helpful suggestions can work out .Do any of you have pics posted of the tool arrangements in question,your descriptions were great but sometimes a picture speaks a thousand words.I will do the same as soon as I can get may Darling to show me how to down load some pics from the digital camera,right now its full of photos intended for our online Art gallery. If I touch it I could get hurt.I also have this pile of wood that seems to be growing as we speak sitting in the spot intended for my RAS,Any unused flat spot. I'm sure NONE of you have that problem RIGHT?
Thanks again RICK ADESIGNS
In my shop I built an 8' bench against the wall and put my RAS at the end of that and then built a small section of bench just down enough to put my slider next to the RAS. My Bandsaw is 4ft from the slider against the same wall. The effect of this is that I measured the bandsaw height and made everything against that wall the same final height. That way I can put a 16' board on the slider or the RAS and cut it. It rests on the table of the band saw and the bench. The fence of the RAS and the slider are lined up also. So far this has served me very well.
Good Luck
John
SCMS don't take dado blades. That's the one key advantage RAS have, that I can think of.
Essentially, the RAS is a dual compound sliding mitre saw that is too big and heavy to carry around in the back of a pickup all the time. I strongly believe that the SCMS is simply the portable version that traded off the rip capability for ease of setup. The RAS can be a very accurate piece of equipment but it does take time to set it up correctly. Swinging from a 45 to some other angle and back again takes a lot more time on the RAS. This is certainly something you want to think about if you stow the SCMS away and then find yourself dragging it out all the time. As has been suggested, I would find a way to incorporate the SCMS and the RAS into one continuous table top. I have mine incorporated into my workbench. This saves me space since I can use the workbench as if it were and extension. My CMS is also lag bolted into place which keeps the alignment perfect all the time thereby reducing setup time immensely.
On the other wall of the shop sits my RAS and next to it is my drill press. I use the drill press table as if it were an extension table for the RAS. It actually works out pretty well since I can adjust the DP table to accomodate a warped piece of wood.
Steve - in Northern California
Steve
Thank you for the very helpful info about my RAS and SCMS.I was reading the other day about Forest Girl's problem with fuzzes and there was a discussion that followed about good bad and ugly router bits this brought to mind a question for you and Forest Girl who I hope is reading this to .Have you tried Jesda bits or the Porter Cable brand of router bits.The Jesda bits are a bit pricey but they produce a clean tight cut long into there life,they do use a high grade carbide which is more than likely the reason for the price.I have also been running some Porter Cable bits for some time now and love them also, they to stay sharp and clean for a exceptionally long time.
Also I was wondering about the Viper bits and thought the carbide was pretty thin and there was a real flashy package this alone caused me to shy away , when I was at my local Home Depot last week they were having a huge sale on Viper bits,the saleswoman I spoke to told me they were not going to carry them any more Hmmmmmmm I wonder why. Well hope all is well out there, its supposed to get cold and rain AGAIN so I better go cover stuff up Take Care RICK ADESIGNS
Rick, I've never tried the PC or Jeseda bits. My personal preferences are Whiteside, Amana and Freud. I usually buy based on how much I intend to use the bit. Whiteside for those that I us a lot and Freud for those that I use very little. The Amana's I buy when I need something that will not require attention over an entire period of production type use. I've found that Amana's are very sharp but don't resharpen well, (could just be my sharpening method but the others seem to come out fine). The Whitesides go on when I need the work to be extremely accurate and need to place a lot of trust in the bit. They haven't let me down yet. The carbide on the Vipers is pretty whimpy. I'm not sure why Oldham/United States Saw is even bothering to produce those things. I think HD is making the right choice in getting rid of them.
Forrest Girls problem turned out to be the wood. She was using Eastern Hemlock which tends to tear easily and flake. When she tested on another piece which was Western Hemlock she had no problem. Steve - in Northern California
Steve
We have a wood around here called Hemfir some kind of hybrid I would guess,it is used mostly for construction and in my opinion when it is cut it smells Nasty.There is no sweeter wood smell than pine sap wood(in my opinion).When I am in a position where I am building cabinets or furniture that is going to be painted I mostly use Southern Yellow Poplar this wood sands up smooth and will take a router cut with little tear out even on end grain.I have seen the Whiteside bits advertised but as of yet not tried them,as far as Amana they are not available in my area.I do how ever have a couple of Freud bits and they work well for me.
Last week I was going in to see my Chiropractor when on a four lane in town a woman drove by me in a new Toyota land cruiser she had small kids in the car and was talking on the phone ,her back doors were ever with my front bumper when she changed lanes.I saw her rig headed into my lane as we passing a bus stop thank god for antilock breaks ,this person never looked back just drove on with the phone on her ear and kids bouncing around on the seat .It was incredible how fast a full size Dodge can slow down.There out there we just need to keep an eye out for them.
Subject 1. Yep, hemfir is sesasonal and substituted all the time for doug fir in construction. During the west coast summer we get western hem fir and during the winter we get eastern hem fir. The western is a much nicer piece of wood and more closely resembles doug fir. The eastern looks the same on the outside but is really tough to work with. Unless, you are using it as furing or somthing else like that.
Cell phones, mini vans, suv's, kids... bad combo for the interstate. My old one ton GMC had the worst brakes in history and I had a lot of close calls with it. Thank god they fixed em on the new HD 2500. You know, I just don't understand it. When I get kids in the car my first priority is the kids. I think about where they are and where I'm going. If I were to add in a cell phone that would take all of my concentration away from what is important and put it on a stupid phone call. If someone were to get upset because I didn't answer my phone I think I would have to slap them up the side of the head and ask them who owns the damn phone, them or me.
I often forget to check my answering machine and have people that get upset at me because I don't return their calls. My response is always the same, its my machine and just because you left a message does not obligate me to return your call. Heck the only reason I even have one is because my mother told me I needed one so she could at least hear my voice once in a while.
Steve - in Northern California
Re hemfir: I'm pretty sure that the term is referring to a combination of Hemlock and Fir with no distinction between the two. The two woods are often logged together and sawn together. Several years ago, at least in the Portland, Ore. area, when you purchased framing lumber the term "hemfir" began to be used. In Idaho, where I now live, when you buy framing lumber, you are sold "firlarch" which they tell me is a combo of Fir and Larch (Tamarac). The "nasty" smell you've referred to is undoubtedly the Hemlock. My experience w/hem is that it often smells like cat urine when cut or machined-- granted some boards worse than others.
Anyhow, there's my 2 cents... wb
WB
While I was sitting here typing I was trying to think of what does Hemfir smell like.Cat urine is really close.How can this be in the pine family with a smell like that?
Thanks for the 2 cents Rick ADESIGNS
At building centers, Western Hemlock and Western Firs are lumped into a single commerical grade designation "HEM-FIR" because their properties are similar enough to be used interchangeably. Western Hemlock grows along the Pacific Coast from Alaska to Northwestern California and east to Northern Idaho and Montana. Under ideal growing conditions, the trees grow to 3' - 4' diameters and 175' - 225' tall. Larger trees exist, but those over 5' in diameter are rare. Like Eastern Hemlock, it is also very shade tolerant and is a "climax" species.
As for the "Cat urine smell"... Ever been to Tacoma Washington.
Steve - in Northern California
Steve, Thanks for the clarification! By the sound of your previous post,I feared you had found a new "hybrid",but I can now see the forest for the trees.Thank you!
And speaking of Tacoma, Wa. what about Benicia, Ca.! Beauty!
My shop is 22 X 24, and I have both a RAS and a CMS. The CMS is mounted at the end of my workbench, so the bench doubles as an outfeed table. The other major tools (joiner, planner, bandsaw, Radial Arm) are all mounted on wheels so they can be moved into place when needed. My table saw is permanently mounted because I have extension tables 5' on each side of the blade so I can rip plywood, and one of my routers is built into the table saw extension so I can cut the piece and move it over to the router to mold. I have outlets throughout the shop so no matter where I set up a tool, it's accessible.
Good Luck, Len (Len's Custom Woodworking, Henderson, Nevada)
Using a RAS for ripping is an accident waiting to happen!
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy
PlaneWood
I've seen it done and I hate to say I worked with a man who used his RAS for ripping all the time.I never liked doing it and do not recommend it to any one who is partial to all there digets.Stick with a table saw that's what there for.
Rick ADESIGNS
Isn't it really the same thing with any tool? Ripping on a RAS is like cross-cutting timbers on a TS -- it takes a lot more work to get it done safely and well. I use a RAS all the time, but just never did have the inclination to rip wood with it:-)
Gerry
Gerry,
Ripping on a RAS is not the equivalent, safety-wise, of cross cutting with a table saw. Ripping with a radial is not safe. Period. It should be avoided.
When ripping, or cross cutting, on a table saw the way the system works (the direction of the blade's rotation, the location of the axis of rotation, and so on) means the axis of rotation is below the table. This means the stock is forced down into the table. (And, of course, back towards the direction of feed.)
When ripping on a radial arm saw, however, the axis of rotation is above the stock and the table. This means that instead of pressing the stock down against the table, the blade actually tries to lift the stock off the table. Add that to the blade trying to throw the stock back in the direction of feed and you have much more potential for disaster than with ripping or cross cutting on a table saw.
With finger boards, a good splitter, anti-kickback pawls--or some other devices to hold the stock DOWN and keep it from kicking back--it can be done. But, again, NEVER as safely as it can be done on the tool actually built for the job.
A loooong time ago, while in my foolish youth and before I discovered the joys of hand tools, I had both a RAS and a table saw. The table saw was down for a time--if I remember correctly I shucked a belt and had some trouble finding a replacement. So for a couple weeks or so I had to do all my rip cuts on my radial arm saw. I used every safety device and procedure I knew of, thought of, learned or invented, and got through this ordeal without incident. But I still vividly remember every cut. Even though I was still young enough to be completely convinced of my own immortality and indestructibility, still I held my breath from the moment I turned on the saw until the cut was finished.
Alan
Edited 5/20/2002 1:04:55 PM ET by Alan
Oh my goodness, did I say a nasty word here?
ADESIGNS says "Just because you can rip on your RAS..." after I said that I don't have any inclination to rip on my RAS. And no, I don't trust _any_ anti kickback paws, on RAS or TS. For that matter, search the rec.woodworking archives and you'll find many cases of flying "missles" from a TS.
As for the right tool for the job, let's see now...I can cut a tenon with a hand saw, on the TS with a tenoning jig, on the bandsaw, on the router table, and some on the scroll saw. So where does the _right_ tool come into this? For a large tenon the BS's easier, and for a very small one the router table can be dangerous. Common sense and proper precautions should prevail. Once again, I don't rip on the RAS, because it's usually safer to do it with something else.
On that same note, some boards are very dangerous to rip on the TS, and the bandsaw is the safer way to go. That's another _right_ tool decision with badly warped boards or reaction wood.
Now, hello Alan. I've seen people crosscutting timbers on the TS near one end where the mass of the board supplied enough torque to drive the cut into the side of the blade. Another guy had a wide board and rode his miter guide mostly off the table, catching the edge while cutting and sending the piece past his ear. Neither of those are safe, and should be avoided. Period.
Yes, ripping on a RAS tries to throw the piece back at you, but so does a TS. In either case you're in trouble if the piece lifts up at all. The real difference is that, on the TS, it's much easier to keep the piece down. (Actually, a TS doesn't really pull the board down very much, since it's already cut before hitting that portion of the blade.) Again, either one can throw a board at you, they just use different sections of the blade to do this (did I say that I don't rip on a RAS?).
Alan says--"With finger boards, a good splitter, anti-kickback pawls--or some other devices to hold the stock DOWN and keep it from kicking back--it can be done. But, again, NEVER as safely as it can be done on the tool actually built for the job."
My reply--You are very right there; even if I use all of those items on my TS, the Bandsaw is much safer for ripping.
Gents, I'm not saying you're wrong here, but just trying to add perspective with some war stories and alternatives. Any tool has some dangerous range of operations, and we need to learn about them.
Gerry
Gerry,
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with your last post in this thread. Are you saying that it is safe to rip with a radial arm saw? Surely not. So what is the point? That all tools can be dangerous? That, of course, is pointing out the obvious. Is the point that sometimes the tool ostensibly made to do a certain job can be less safe doing that job than some alternative tool? Well, sure; it's possible to use any tool unsafely--even when doing the operation for which that machine is made. So I guess I'm missing something in your post.
The point I was trying to make (and, I guess, failed to make clearly) is that some operations on some machines are inherently unacceptably dangerous; in other words, that there is no way to do some operations on a particular tool with an acceptable degree of safety: viz, ripping with a RAS.
BTW, the table saw does push the stock down during the entire cut, just like a radial arm saw tries to push the wood up, off the table, during the entire cut. On a table saw, if the top of the blade is above the top of the stock (as it should be and must be to cut all the way through) then the teeth will be moving downward before they contact the stock. You are correct that how much it presses down depends on how much above the top of the stock the blade has been set. A RAS will also be pressing the stock up through the entire cut for the same reason: to cut all the way through, the bottom of the blade must be below the bottom of the stock, so the teeth are always moving up before they contact the wood.
Alan
My point is that it's not black and white. No, I don't rip with a RAS, because it takes more work to do it safely. Yes, I believe it can be done safely, if you understand the tool. Nearly the same setup I use for molding on a RAS will allow you to safely rip, but it takes awhile to set this up. The payoff is producing a lot of quality molding much faster than with any other tool that I now have. Now, if I shift the gray towards black a bit, I'll say that the shorter the board you're ripping (or molding) on the RAS, the more dangerous it can become. I can safely rip a narrow 4" long board on the TS, but wouldn't consider doing that on a RAS. (Actually, I would. I'd use a right-angle guide and clamps, and use a crosscut pull.)
So, when you say operation, you're making a rip into black and white, while I've got many shades of gray. And, unless you learn them, some aspects of any operation are dangerous on any tool.
BTW, I was evidently thinking backwards at the time, and of course you're right about the TS blade, provided that the kerf doesn't pinch.
Gerry
Gerry
Please don't get me wrong ,your point is well taken.It is my intention only to point out obvious advertised flaws like in the use of a RAS not to say you or anyone else who is active in this site actually rips on there RAS.As an experienced wood worker as most of us are you learn by your mistakes and the mistakes of others and hopefully can determine at an instance what tool will get the job done safely.If a bandsaw is what is needed to rip a difficult board and you know it will get you to the next stage of your project safely than so be it.This is were I was going with my statement the right tool for the job.I feel with a couple of misunderstandings aside we are speaking the same language here,may I also add KNOW YOU TOOLS.
Rick ADESIGNS
Rick,
Understood and agreed; time to move on.
Gerry
Speaking of war stories:
One day I was tired and in a hurry. I only had a RAS then. I needed to rip some 1/4 mahoghany for a secretary gallery. I started to feed it in from the wrong end of the blade and saw the "Danger, don't feed from this end" sticker on the guard. I jerked my hand back just in time as the wood was forced between the blade and the table. The arm flexed just enough to let it slip under the blade. The board flew across the shop and part way thru a hollow core door. It could have pulled my fingers into the saw.
I turned everything off for the day, cracked a cold beer and sat in a chair for a while and watched the board sway around as it hung in the door.
Frank
Cool Frank, want a picture of my garage door... I'd put money on the fact that it would impress you... Big ole dent right through the insulation.... Steve - in Northern California
Very impressive, but what about accuracy? If we try for it elsewhere, what about with kickbacks?
Ripping a piece of old, warped plywood, it decides to sit up behind the blade, and no splitter or paws are going to stop it. It swings around, cuts out a tail fin and rudder to free itself, then takes off at an 8 degree flight angle. Really beautiful to watch as I was well to the side and knew it might happen (yeah, sure). Flew straight back off the TS through half the shop, hitting a plactic cabinet door dead center, for an interesting display. But the real accuracy was elsewhere...
I had just cleaned up the shop and my (large) workbench was almost completely empty. The only exception was a single, full glass bottle of fresh shellac sitting right in the middle. Dead-center hit, as far as I could tell.
Haven't been able to match this with a RAS. Seems to me that the ripping blade sorta flips the back up so's the board tumbles and won't fly exactly straight; gotta work on that; open to ideas.
Gerry
New Woodworkers - DO NOT DO THIS, THIS IS INTENDED AS HUMOR ONLY. IT IS AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT WE KNOW CAN HAPPEN BECAUSE OF THE INHERANT DANGERS OF WOOD WORKING. Think of this as a fun way to remember what not to do.
Accuracy is a problem. However, if the wind cooperates and the garage/shop door is open, a 1/2" slice off of 1/2" stock on the rip without the guard, splitter or kick back pawls in place produces some very nice arrows. One did hit the grill on the old beemer, (must have been a wind shift), but with the rest I was able to keep my neighbor at bay for about a 1/2 hour. I get the best distance with fir but the walnut and maple have the best potential for reuse and they stick in the lawn better.
Now there is also a use for those little cuttoffs that we seem to accumulate and never throw out. You take an old 28 tooth HSS blade and put it in your saw. Turn the saw on, (sans guards of any type), stand behind and to one side of the saw and chuck the cuttoffs at the blade. It takes a little practice but in no time at all you'll find you're able to take out the neighbors windows, dent a passing cars door, and negotiate with law enforcement officials. One word of caution about this, you need to make sure your home owners, medical and dental insurance is paid up and you need to setup your shop in such a manner that makes it look like it was an accident.
Steve - in Northern California
Edited 5/23/2002 2:27:39 PM ET by Steve Schefer
Edited 5/23/2002 2:29:12 PM ET by Steve Schefer
Edited 5/23/2002 2:34:00 PM ET by Steve Schefer
Sounds really neat. Do you think it would help if I glued feathers on the end of the board before ripping? And if I use the RAS, I could swing the arm as I cut. Then, all I'll need is a power feeder to complete the act:-) Have to try some of this with the piece, if and when I ever mess up a project...
Gerry
Gerry
Just because you can rip on your RAS does not make it safe,you are putting a lot of trust in you anti-kickback pawls to keep your stock from becoming a missile.All of the negative responses say the same thing there is some thing just not right about this process.It was originally a selling factor when the home version of the larger RAS's were introduced,giving the saw one more feature made it more saleable.My father bought a Craftsman RAS back in the 60's and then he thought it was crazy to try ripping with and he never did.Having done it, seen it done correctly and incorrectly and listening to some good advice from a master craftsman (my Father) I still stand firm and advise not to do this these tools are dangerous enough as are all the tools we know and love.Lets just stick to using the right tool for the job and enjoy our passion to its fullest
Rick ADESIGNS
Edited 5/20/2002 9:02:06 PM ET by ADESIGNS
Rick, Hem-Fir is the way its marked. I was down at the lumber yard yesterday and took a look at their 1x4 firring. Its s3s so one side is still rough and you can definitly see the difference in the stacks. In the Western stack the rough sides had a very prickly feel to them while the stuff in the Eastern stack was almost silky. The guy at the yard took a pocket knife and started a cut down the side of the western. It ran pretty smooth and straight. When he did the same thing on the eastern it opened into a split along the grain. The reason its called hem-fir is because it is used as a suitable replacement for doug fir in the contstruction trade. The stuff is not suitable for fine wood working... However, it is available in most any construction site dumpster and can be salvaged for crafts projects, etc.
Steve - in Northern California
Edited 5/22/2002 1:22:11 PM ET by Steve Schefer
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