Question on where to buy the big iron.
Hi, partially from advice received from all of you, I have been taking some classes prior to upgrading my shop and moving up a notch in the woodworking hobby. I need a jointer, bandsaw, and table saw upgrade to get the process going. The info from taking the classes and getting updated in everything has been priceless. I have been looking at Grizzly, Tool Crib/Amazon, etc. etc. and the offerings and prices are great in my estimation — you seem to get a lot for less money than I expected. However (now the bad news), I got some strong advice from the instructors and other students I met (many horror stories) about buying anything “mail order” without checking it out first. This included Delta, Powermatic, Grizzly, and many other brands (not all from China). The horror stories involved primarily getting big aircraft carrier jointers, table saws etc. delivered and then finding tables not flat, tolerences not met, excessive run out, etc. and having to go through the pain of returning these 700/800 lb shipments or waiting forever for a new cast iron table or having to hire expensive help in getting a tool that really is what you expect it to be. I was strongly advised to pay extra and buy from stock somewhere where the flatness of table, etc. etc. can be chk’d out prior to taking delivery of the product — or buy used and check it out yourself (or with help) prior to purchase. Someone told me that half of the purchases they knew of in the last 3 years (they align tools) required returns or parts replacements. Is this really a problem of this extent? If so, buying from these types of sources does not seem to the bargin they initially seem to be. Ed
Replies
Where are you located? There may be a place near you that refurbs and sells industrial woodworking machinery. Every time I go to the place near me, I feel like a piker who wittles things from balsa wood.
"Where are you located? There may be a place near you that refurbs and sells industrial woodworking machinery."
That is part of the problem, I am in rural northern Calif, not real close to any dealers but about two hours from either Santa Rosa or Sacramento ---about 3 hours from the SF bay area.
If you're closer to Oregon, you could go there instead. I would be surprised if there's nothing available close to you. Nothing in Redding or Eureka?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Ed: If you live in No. Cal., you are probably near enough to a Grizzly warehouse to travel there to examine their machinery. You can probably find other dealers along the way in places like Portland. Since I enjoy travel, I have been to a Grizzly warehouse and to Woodworkers' Supply in Albuquerque several times. I feel pretty safe dealing with both these suppliers as well as Amazon. If you are patient, they are good at offering some impressive bargains. If you can be satisfied with the same quality and size power tools as those that I use, you can find a decent selection of Delta goods at most Lowe's stores. Home Depot's Ridgid tools aren't bad choices either. I sort of suspect that you have heavier artillery in mind, however.By the way, if you make the suggested trip, stop by Oregon Caves and visit their very neat lodge. I haven't made it there in season, but I have a real hankering to visit.Cadiddlehopper
Guess the real advantage you gain when buying locally is support from the dealer if something is not right. That could be priceless, when you need it. Regardless of where you buy it, you pays your money and takes your chances. Pay more money, take less chances. At least you can read the reviews on amazon and get an idea of what terror awaits..
KB
Allow me to (randomly) list some thoughts:
1. Delve into some of those horror stories. You might learn some specifics helpful to your decision making. I'll bet most are groundless (maybe from folks who paid too much).
2. As previously stated here, there is always some risk. Your (practical) choices seem few to me. Consider the chances of your literally putting your hands on equipment that you then precisely (as in precision tools) examine, and finally are able to get that very item sold to you.
3. I'm an Amazon fanatic, perhaps biased, have bought thousands of dollars worth of tools from AMZN, and have used its price matching offering.
My suggestions:
> Do your research. Time with AMZN reviews is well spent. I note the date, paying little attention to comments more than 2 yrs. old. Focus on negative comments, and determine why the rating is less than 5. Is it the saw's top or the belt housing (a minor Powermatic issue). There's a big difference behind ratings: the worst being the customer who isn't being critical of the item per se, rather something peripheral.*
> If possible buy from AMZN now while you can get free shipping on heavy equipment. And, remember (it's rare, but) AMZN does not always have the best price; however, the people there are glad to beat a price if the item is the correct one, in stock, and shipping and tax are considered.
*If you can tolerate even more detail, here's a recent educational experience of mine that happens to pertain to a Cummins Tool purchase I just returned. The rating was a 4+ and the easy to read comments were mostly 5s. Looking further into historic ratings revealed occasion 1s and 2s. This company sometimes ships "junk" and has a history of shipping the wrong item. (This is all hindsight, you understand.) Lastly, I bought the tool through AMZN, and it was not until I took advantage of its AtoZ guarantee that I got the customer service/consideration I deserved.
InMyOpinion, thks for that view on your experiences -- and I agree that it is difficult to be able to chk the critical tolerances even at a stocking dealer and then buy the unit that was checked -- but maybe not impossible?? (I haven't ever purchased large heavy tools before --- and now after being warned of this risk it has complicated the purchases.) I also have had good experiences buying from Amazon and when I have had an issue they resolved it (possibly after a few calls to a call center in India etc.). However I haven't purchased large aircraft carriers from them either. Your vote seems to be in favor of carefully (read reviews etc.) taking the chance. I wonder how many others that read this forum have fallen prey to receiving difficult to return and repair large power tools when ordering from sources such as Grizzly, Amazon, etc. Also I wonder if some of the real $$ expensive $$ tools (such as the SawStop table saw) have more reliable precision and quality --I know this brand has some safety advantages-- than the lower cost imports. I really don't mind paying more if I get more ---- but the Grizzly/Delta stuff sounds good (at least according to their marketing staff). Ed
Ed,
I can't comment on any one brand, but as the Shop Manager for Fine Woodworking Magazine, I have ordered hundreds of machines for tool reviews over the past 5 or 6 years and I have never received a machine that had serious problems, except occasionally for shipping damage, but even that is rare.
We often order the machines anonymously, and the machines have, with very few exceptions, always been in their original sealed cartons, and were still covered with packing grease, so it would have been obvious had the machines been checked out before thay were shipped to us. I can't say that you won't get a lemon but I think it is unlikely.
John White, Shop Manager, Fine Woodworking Magazine
John
I wish I had your luck and shared your optimisim. My personal experiences have been quite to the contrary. And, they weren't just from one particular manufacturer. Before I switched over to mostly industrial older equipment, I stocked my shop with many different brands from the company's you see being reviewed all the time in FWW. I had to send back 3 straight Delta jointers, and a Delta bandsaw back in 98'. I was so angry that I've never bought anything from Delta since.
When I replaced my Unisaw with my PM 66, I had to work on the PM for a rediculous amount of time to get the wings on flat, and the miter slot parallel to the blade. When I called the source that I purchased from, they would have been happy to replace it with a new one. However, after remembering what I went through with Delta, and how it took a month to finally get a jointer (from PM, not Delta!), I decided that I could just as quickly tune it myself.
We just shouldn't have to go through these steps when buying tools. I have since replaced all of these tools, except for the 66, with older American industrial iron. I don't think I'll ever buy another NEW power tool again. Oliver, Northfield, Tannewitz, etc...... are so much better than the hodge podge of "will it work or won't it" .
Just thought I'd share my experience.
Walnutz
Walnutz,
I certainly can't argue with your final point, "old iron" from makers like Oliver, Tannewitz, and Northfield, are superb machines that make most modern equipment look like cheap toys.
I've also found that the older, but lighter weight, machinery from Delta, Craftsman, Atlas, Parks, and Walker Turner were also much better than almost anything being sold for small shops today. Its a shame that the technology and quality that was available 50 years ago isn't still available.
John White
Thanks to all of you for sharing your experience and your advice --I will follow much of it. I have restored a lot of old boats so I am aware of the quality and time put into many older products -- our global competition and price demands by consumers have caused a lot of corner cutting in my opinion. However as much as I also love the older industrial products (a good friend just restored a huge Cinncinati mill -- had to rig 3 phase power etc. etc.), I really have reached a point in my life where I can afford some new things and I don't especially want to deal with all the research and effort needed to use 50 year old products. I still have some restorations waiting in the shop that may never see completion. I would like to buy products (over time as was suggested) that are right to start with. Shipping damage is another thing. I can get to all the stores you mention within 2 to 3 hours of driving so I will start doing so --- but it sounds like buying the unit you inspect may also be difficult. It is one thing getting delivery of a large tool and getting it into place etc. etc. It is extremely painful if you have to return it regardless of how good the return policy is. And it is sad if you never get to experience the real ability of the tool because of out-of-flat surfaces and runout that you don't discover initially. Good warranties are not a substitute for good quality. Buying used (newer) equipment would be nice if you could find what you want --- but not as nice as getting something new that meets specifications and expectations. Are some of the more expensive products (e.g. Sawstop) dialed in any better than the price performers? Thanks again to all of you for your time and knowledge. Ed
John: Just curious...if FWW buys a lot of heavy tools anonymously what do you do with all of them after the testing (obviously staff all have well equipped shops but even, so there's a limit) :>) Thanks to FWW for Knots. I've learned a lot from everyone's experience.
I was looking on Boston Craigs list yesterday, There's 4-5 commercial pieces. The commercial stuff shows up weekly.
good luck
Ron
Ron: Perhaps I mis-lead with the term "heavy machines" and didn't mean commercial. Sorry. Was just wondering about normal stuff like "10" tablesaws,bandsaws, etc,etc. and where it all goes. Thanks.
Heres three from the quickie board. Theres more listed. This is just an example of an average week.
enjoy
New Delta dust collection system 5 HP (2080 cfm) 60 HZ Serial #901780 has a 3 feet dust barrel with 20 feet of long metal duct 6 inches wide. Previously installed in a barn by This Old House in a Milton project. Never used by owner. Cost a few thousand dollars but taking best offer to get rid of it.
powermatic table saw - $1300
There was a unisaw but I didn't see it again today
Ed,
There is no easy simple answer to the question you asked. All of us, including ones who are near a Woodcraft, a Rockler, Home Depot, Lowes, etc, all wonder about which way to go. My comments do not indicate there is only one way to go. Here they are, in no particular order:
1) I agree with John White, that tools which are shipped are likely to arrive in good order UNLESS they were damaged by the shipper. I have received three tools from Amazon which the shippers damaged. You could see that by the smashed sides and corners, and holes in the box. The nice thing about Amazon, is that they took all of them back, and they paid the shipping both ways. My experience is that Amazon is a good group to deal with.
2) Woodcraft will take any tool back up to a year after you bought it, with no questions asked. That is a GREAT deal. I don't know if Rockler does that. It is a BIG selling point to me. Personally, I have not found that the folks at Rockler or Woodcraft are the best people to get advice from, but being able to take something back after you have used it for a year really puts the mind at rest. Woodcraft gives you 10% off on your birthday, and they have special deals all year. A few times a year, they have 10 or 15% off on Delta, and Jet and other brands. Wait for these if you can.
3) I read the comments on the tools at Amazon because it can give you things to look out for BUT BUT BUT, there are some real problems with those comments. For example, the last time I checked, the average rating on the Delta Contractor saw was higher than the rating on the Unisaw. WHY? The answer is obvious when you read the comments. The folks buying the Unisaw DEMAND perfection and any minor problem is a big deal to them, but the folks buying the cheaper saws are happy because it is better than the 20 year old Sears that they just took to the dump.
4) Don't forget Craig's List. Bargains show up every once in a while. Look in your newspaper for folks selling equipment. Join the local Woodworking group. Someone always something they are selling. You are not likely to get shafted by a fellow woodworker.
5) Please don't feel the need to buy all of your tools at once. You are upgrading. Take a few years to do it. Enjoy the process! Try getting one thing from Amazon and see how it goes. If it goes well, then do it again. If you have trouble with a tool you bought from Amazon, CALL them on the telephone. Their customer service phone number is 1-800-201-7575. Write that number on your wall.
Have fun. What you are about to do should be very enjoyable.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
If you want to find some really good prices on industrial equipment, auctions are a good way to get some great deals.
If you keep an eye on this site, you may find one on the west coast, but most of the industry seems to be in NC.
http://www.irsauctions.com/index.asp?flash=7
When I look at all of this equipment, and think of all of the jobs that were lost, and the people that ran these machines. I wonder what they are doing now. They probably have spent their whole lives running the equipment, and doing a good job of cranking out a good product. In the distant past, when these plants closed, it could usually be attributed to bad management, or financial times etc.
Now however, there is no way to compete when foreign competition can send a good product over here cheaper than we can even buy the raw materials before the work begins.
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