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That would be “Taiwan”. I can surely recommend an American made product I’m sure you’ll find more than acceptable, Northfield Foundry & Machine” in Minnesota. Great stuff, top of the line and made only by skilled American craftsman, super customer service.
However, I have a question, why are “skilled” craftsman in Germany, Switzerland or Canada more acceptable than the skilled craftsman in Taiwan? Most machine tools made in Taiwan are of very good quality and many people on this forum use them. There is also some very good Italian stuff, but I don’t know if they make your list of acceptable countries.
By the way, for that American skilled craftsmanship, Northfields current list prices:
I couldn't tell if it was a serious inquiry or a joke. Your response was far more charitable than the one I thought better of posting!
Good pointer on the Northfield machines, nice stuff. I would add Oneway for lathes.------------------------------------
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools. -- Herbert Spencer (1891)
Believe me, I held back....
Hello Lakeboy, Did you look at the quality of the powermatic equipment. It rates pretty high. Being from Taiwan does not disqualify a product from being made to high standards of quality. Take a look at the machines, compare them dollar for dollar and ask for opinions about specific models. I've got a Jet bandsaw, made in Taiwan and working fine anytime. Tools are more about design and standards than anything else.
Good Luck
AB
Tell us what you expect to pay for quality machinery, details of your budget, and what sort of woodworking you want to do and you will get many helpful suggestions.
One gets very good value for money on Tiawanese machinery and if you know what you want and have some mechanical knowledge you can tweak it into something really good.
If money is flowing well there is plenty of good stuff from the usual places and unusual places such as Portugal.....
thank,s for understandig that i just am look for the best i can bye .altho i would like to have more,i have bin waiting my life for this opertunity and will spend what it takes for quality "that i won,t regret". please understand that it is hard for me to believe that someone uneducated liveing in a shack working for a taskmaster in slave like conditions can make percision machinery . also i do not aprove of that type of exploitation .any advise on QUALITY reputible compines and thier acess is a+. also try to bear with me as i am computer eliterit (this took 1/2 hr.+) to type BIG THANK,S LAKEBOY
Apparently you have never been to or seen pictures of Taiwan.
Jack
Don't worry about being computer illiterate-it all falls into place eventually if you persevere: there is even a facility for spelling correction in the computer.
Apart from a few American makers of good stuff (I am not very familiar with them) you can look at SCM Invincible (not MinimAx) which is Italian, or Pinhiero (Portugal) or Wadkin (British) just to mention a few.
However parts or even all of these can now come from Taiwan ,China and other places so I would not let that put you off "Taiwanese stuff".Philip Marcou
thank you for the advise and words of caution . happy new year lake
In stark contrast to the comparatively illiterate bumpkins residing in the good old u.s. of a. the Taiwanese enjoy a 96.5 percent literacy rate according to the CIA World Factbook. They also enjoy low national debt and a high savings rate. They currently have the worlds tallest "shack", at 101 stories. They have a higher standard of living than the Portugese. Taiwan is one of the top three countries in producing engineers, the US is not one of the three. Most Taiwanese read and write at least two languages, many of us in america have severe difficulty with one. Taiwanese also have a high rate of computer literacy. The last time I looked the Taiwan dollar was gaining value, the US buck is dropping compared to other currencies. Them uneducated, exploited shack dwellers have managed not to mortgage their grand childrens income on todays spending, have not twice elected the village idiot president and have not invaded a nation that was no threat to them. I would suggest that you are far too uneducated and illiterate to judge the quality of a machine based on the country of origin. You should go put your eyes and hands on the machines you are interested in obtaining and judge them by whether or not they will do what you are going to ask of them. If you are indeed serious, your lack of awareness of the world around you is shocking to say the least. I am in a state of disbelief that a person can reach retirement age in this country, have such a poor grasp of the common language and have the unmitigated gall to call other people uneducated.------------------------------------
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools. -- Herbert Spencer (1891)
You have my standing ovation, Dgreen ! C.
D (and everyone),
For Gawds sake, don't respond to Ken or this will be the longest, nastiest thread ever!
Lataxe, already getting into his flak jacket.
I was busy looking at the fine Asian gas engine and the fine Italian pumps on Palmgrens air compressors. The wood in the crate probably comes from Canada, maybe the decals were printed in the US thereby making it legal to claim the machine was made by good ole boys richere in the good ole usa. Palmgren by the way is wholly owned by a corporation who is listed with Chicago's secretary of state as an importer. The countries they import from are listed as China, Taiwan and Russia.
I have read with interest your tale of woe regarding that poor quality import tool you purchased from that poor exploited shack dwelling uneducated manufacturer incarcerated on that God forsaken furrin island. I have one on my wish list, I am waiting for my conscience to allow me to exploit his miserable circumstances.
I fear I must act soon or the shipping costs on the bales of devalued dollars will exceed the shipping cost of his products!
Don .... Exploiter of the uneducated and downtrodden shack dwellers.------------------------------------
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools. -- Herbert Spencer (1891)
D,
Phew...I thought you might shell Ken but I have instead absorbed your fire. I suffer them arras and slingshots for the peace of all!
Lataxe, a scapegoat
No fire was intended in your direction, I figured with your good sense of humour you might get a laugh out of it! Anyway slings and arrows are ineffective against armor and you sir have armored yourself well with rational thought applied to an eclectic education.
I suppose it's out of the question to ask you to consider coming here as an immigrant, I don't know what we could offer you other than ire and abuse except maybe a good home for your poodle!
Perhaps we could arrange a trade of say perhaps a bakers dozen or so American good ole boys for you, I would be willing to go as high as 200 lawyers and 9/10's of congress.------------------------------------
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools. -- Herbert Spencer (1891)
"Perhaps we could arrange a trade of say perhaps a bakers dozen or so American good ole boys for you, I would be willing to go as high as 200 lawyers and 9/10's of congress"
Don't even think about it, dg. Lataxe may use flowery, fly-blown and hifalutin english but he's ours, and we'll hang on to our own eccentrics thanks very much.
As if we'd trade one of him for any one of those low-browed, buck toothed, rootin', tootin', trigger happy, low-lifes you're offering--- and that's just your members of Congress!
We've got plenty of our own scumbag, moronic, on-message, mouthpieces in the Houses of Parliament. We don't need your cast-offs too.
I think I really, really need a drink. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
I did offer a home for the poodle, we have a nice place in Guantanamo that would be perfect! Think of the high times he could have watching the village idiot talk with his mouth full while attempting to give neck rubs !
Oh well, it was worth a shot. We could sure use a few eccentrics whose education didn't stop with the state sponsored pablum. Mind you we don't seem to mind illiteracy provided you have some useless skill such as scarfing down steroids and swatting/kicking a ball whilst driving drunk and engaging in fisticuffs.
You've been reading our propaganda, your opinion of our congressional folk is far higher than most of them deserve.
I would have offered the Senate also, but I figured even the English with all their hounds and horses would be overwhelmed by an influx of that many vicious vermin.
I think I'll join you in that drink.....
I think I hear boots outside..... AACCK! It's Homeland Security!! Gotta run------------------------------------
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools. -- Herbert Spencer (1891)
Moi, an eccentric!? I am the epitome of good sense and reason, as you know (except on weekdays when the ladywife goes to work and things at home get out of hand, as there is no one here to tell me , "NO"!).
As to a poodle - never had one, as Korky our cat eats little dogs. He waits under the hedge by the front gate for them to pass, then has-at their nozzles with his claws, knowing they are trapped on the end of their mistress' string. I am secretly proud of the little monster.
If Dgreen could only see the shangrila that is Galgate, he would understand that I could never live elsewhere, particularly in the US, where there are many serious men with guns and no sense of humour. My pathetic cute-isms would see me target practice within a day. Also, I once had to get through LAX and nearly died from having to take off my shoes 32 times at the behest of various security persons (who were serious and had guns).
As to politicians, surely they are a necessary evil? I read Thomas Hobbes, you know, and understand the alternative. The real enemy is Rationalism, as Michael Oakeshott explains in "Rationalism in Politics" - a fine series of essays defining conservatism and its value to us all as the meme-hosts we are.
Modern poiticians are Rationalist to the core and cannot see that their 5-year plans, bilions of new laws, "focussed" policies and such have stupidly ignored both reality and its inclination to create an unpredictable future.
But I digress. What do you feel about buying German woodworking machines? They did bomb my granny's house in 1941, after all!
Lataxe, a Galgatian forever.
Lataxe, old buddy, I think dg's offer of a place for the poodle was aimed at finding a home for out illustrious PM when his imminent retirement comes to fruition -- Guantanamo Bay I think was the salubrious location.
That would be handy for Tone's lecture tour circuit venues likely to comprise mostly of audiences of gullible Americans. They're always a sucker for our funny and quaint accents. They hardly understand a darned word, but, boy oh boy, it does sound like it's intelligent.
Ah, the Altendorf's, Martin's and Felder's of this world. We have three Felder bits of kit in our workshop. Excellent Germanic gear. Very buyable. We're all part of the same EU now. Time to move on from the bitter memories of of the 1930's and 1940's-- which was largely caused by the vindictiveness and foolishness of the Allies and their demands at Versailles. Slainte.
Richard Jones Furniture
Edited 12/31/2006 10:14 am by SgianDubh
Ah, that poodle. I always think of him as The Chief Weasel from "Wind in the Willows".
Still, were that poodle to be sent past our gate, Korky the cat would resolve the issue, especially were I to deprive him of his catfud for a bit. The poodle would be raked, bit and et (except for the stomach, which is left on the landing for the humans to tread on with bare feet, in the morning when they are still dozy and unaware of the "foot-treat" in store).
I bet the poodle-weasel would prefer that fate to the one awaiting - being hoisted out of No 10 with a tear in his eye and a knife in his back. Wot a hard life they do have, those madly ambitious and power-crazed men, poor luvs.
Of course, my remark about the Jairmuns was tongue in cheek, as there was a lot of mutual granny-bombing in the 1940s (and worse) so I am just glad we are all friends now. I am a particular friend of Mr Scheppach, Mr Mafell and Mr Festool (if buying their fine tools counts as friendship).
Them other German marques you mention would not fit in my shed; and also kill the wallet for good. Nevertheless I am tinged green with envy.
I buy saws from America; also planes & things from Canada. Do you think they will let me stay in Knots now?
Did I mention the Special Stuff from New Zealand?
I also have a Taiwanese belt sander named "Big Boy". :-)
Nothing Portugese (yet).
Lataxe the multicultural.
I regret to inform you that merely removing your shoes will not nearly be enough. You and your countrymen are so dangerous and such a proven threat to us that we must now examine your e-mail records and your banking records before we can allow you to set foot on our holy homeland. You have only yourself to blame given your obvious terrorist tendencies and your aforementioned propensity to exploit uneducated non skilled shack dwellers.
In addition it has come to our attention that you are enabling the grandchildren of past bad actors to finance their terrorist ways by buying or contemplating buying their well engineered and carefully manufactured tools of mass destruction.
Here is a link explaining the sanctions that I am sure you will agree are entirely reasonable and which I am sure you and your countrymen will have no problem complying with if indeed you have nothing to hide.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=VL4HVZGOUZETRQFIQMFCFFOAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2007/01/01/nusnoop01.xml
All kidding aside, for what it's worth you have my abject apologies.
Have a happy, peaceful and productive new year.
Don
------------------------------------
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools. -- Herbert Spencer (1891)
dg,The piece in the Telegraph seems extreme- until one reckons at the threats that have arisen recently from flights originating in the UK. The plot to simultaneously detonate bombs on ten US bound flights, the Underground attacks of 18 months ago... have left a deep impression that the UK has a smoldering, small group of malcontents who are operating outside the realm of civilized society, and that the problem is unabated. The infamous episode of Richard "Shoe-bomber" Reid who embarked from Paris to the US, taken with the equally disturbing recent events in the suburbs of that city reinforce the view.The US has a very large immigrant population, incuding many from middle-eastern and nominally Muslim countries- but the plots uncovered here seem pathetic and adolescent in comparison. The above, taken with the fact that the 9/11 hijackers were all ex-US foreigners has led to a deep level of concern here that existential threats to the US tend to arise overseas, not at home.My personal concern is that in attempt to gain safety, Americans may mortgage the very rights that they have fought for in the past. I suspect that the worm has turned on this concern with the recent elections and that the present administration is in for much more scrutiny than it has had in the past.So far as I can see the Telegraph speaks of allowing tracking of financial records via credit card- something third parties already do extensively, and of email correpondence. The latter is not private- it is sent in the clear, like a post card. While I am uncomfortable providing government with unfeettered access to the above, we should all recognize that they already have it, and need only request a third party to do their bidding. At least in the case of air travel, one is informed of their access as a condition of travel.As a Yank who has lived and studied in Europe and who travels their 3-4 times a year, I am sympathetic to the isues raised. Also, it would be nice if the next time I came, I could be permitted to bring my own shaving cream...Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Goat, these days it's the friendly fire which gets one....Philip Marcou
dgreen:
Jolly good post, lad!
-nazard
I agree with u.sas
I AM VERY PLEASED YOU DO NOT PURCHASE THE TOOLS FOR OUR TROOPS!!! LAKE
I'll bet you are as knowlegable about weaponry as you are about computers and machine tools.------------------------------------
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools. -- Herbert Spencer (1891)
Um, let's review what has been said.You made the assertion that workers in Taiwan were "uneducated liveing (sic) in a shack working for a taskmaster in slave like conditions", and that this would impact their ability to make precision machinery. Then quite a bit of information was presented to you about the level of education and literacy in Taiwan, and how more engineers were being produced in Taiwan than the U.S., basically refuting your characterization of the average Taiwanese worker.To which you made a reply regarding purchasing decisions for the U.S. military, without trying to present any data of your own regarding working and living conditions in Taiwan.How exactly does this make any logical sense?
Maybe the best post I've read in years.Thank you for finally stating what many of us have been thinking for too long.
Fascinating. I wonder what part of the world that computer you don't know how to use was made in?--
Todd
Thank,s to everyone on their great suggestions and corrections.Yes,i would consider italian , portuguese etc..LAKEBOY
lakeboy, your timing of your question is perfect. There's an article in the current issue of the Woodworkers Journal (Feb 2007) that goes into the very detail about the quality of Taiwanese/Chinese made tools. Basically it sums up that every tool manufacturer has several levels of quality control and the drill you'll find at Wal-Mart for $19.99 will last as long as you think a $19.99 drill will last. But, if you buy a drill that's $79.99, that passes through state-of-the-art quality control processes you will have a higher quality made tool. In the end, you get what you pay for regardless of where the tool was made. Pick up a copy if you're not already a subscriber and read the article.
Lakeboy: I too dove into woodworking after retirement. Unlike you, though, I understand machinery and realize that Taiwan is an outpost of freedom populated by a very intelligent and energetic people. You can get machinery made here in the US but it will cost you. If you can afford it and your shop floor can stand the weight (all the made in the USA equipment that I am aware of is of the very heavy, no doubt about it industrial level stuff) go for it; I'm all for looking for that "Made in the USA" label and supporting the home country of the purchaser, wherever that may be. Second to that is support of allied counties, those who value freedom and open markets. That opens the sphere of choices to many countries selling machines. Also look for machines made in an "ISO 2001" factory, this is an international rating organization that judges quality control and insures that the finished product is within "spec". I don't see "ISO" mentioned on Knots, not sure why. Maybe someone can expand on the value of "ISO" as it relates to machine quality. KDM
"... Buy the best and only cry once.........
Well Lake, I won't jump on the bandwagon, but others have made some very good (albeit blunt) points. Since you are interested in Powermatic and American made "quality", I'll share a story with you.
I have been WW for a couple years now. My first big tool purchase was a PM 64A contractors saw, made in Taiwan. For the most part it has been a quality tool. Like many saws I needed to shim the extension wings to get them level. However, I couldn't use it for a few weeks because the Accu Fence that came with it was badly out of square, having been welded up poorly. Now, that fence is the one part of the saw made in USA. So the dealer sent me a new one. Oh goody, I get to use my saw. WRONG! That one was square, but the tailstock was welded crooked so that the clamping lever was angled inward and wouldn't allow the fence to mount on the rail. So, finally I got the third fence and I use it happily, and it is a beefy fence. If you want a deal on a "Made in USA" Accu Fence that needs a a little tweaking to work let me know; I'll sell it cheap.
The moral to the story is that "Made in USA" usually comes with a big price tag and is certainly no guarantee of quality.
As a footnote; I don't like the ever-increasing move towards Chinese made tools, but it is primarily a political issue. However, the majority of those Chinese are working in new, high-quality factories employing skilled workers that are getting paid a respectable wage, not the political slave labor that has been commonplace in China.
Jake
Duke,I believe you are referring to ISO 9000 and ISO 9001 ratings. Having been involved in qualifying a company where I once worked for ISO 9000, I can tell you it basically doesn't mean squat. Being ISO 900x certified doesn't mean that you have high-quality production methods, it simply means that your methodologies (process and procedure) are fully documented and are utilized consistently.Basically, your procedures may be crap, but if you have them documented and use them every time, you can get your certification.You're much better off using you hands, eyeballs and brains to determine if a piece of equipment will meet your needs and standards rather than trust a certification that is relatively meaningless.Jim
"There are two spiritual dangers in not owning a farm. One is the danger of supposing that breakfast comes from the grocery, and the other is that heat comes from the furnace." - Aldo Leopold
Jim: What a disappointment!! I really thought that that meant something good, or at least descent. Duke "... Buy the best and only cry once.........
I echo your thoughts on ISO 900x certifications. The Owner of a company can also be the Plant Manager and the Quality Manager, all at the same time, as long as it's written in the companies QA Manual. It doesn't take much thinking to determine that the quality output of a company may be dictated by the shipping date and greed. As for the paperwork being maintained, there are a lot of people willing to prostitute their signature for a paycheck. Fortunately (hopefully) those are the exceptions and not the rule.Quality is a function of what the customer (importer not so much the consumer) is demanding. If a manufacturer in Taiwan, China, Russia, Spain, or Chile is asked to make the best and paid to do so, they will provide it. If asked for cheap product, they'll provide that too. When the consumer walks away from the low quality / price products and demands better, the importers will provide them.Attitudes about foreign workers being inferior are born out of ignorance and elitism. Disappointing and hard to re-educate, particularly since there is a lot of the same expressed domestically towards people of all kinds living on this continent.
Jim, I agree the ISO certification does not guarantee of quality. What the ISO certification does do, is assure me of consistency. Which, allows me to recommend a piece of equipment from a certified manufacturer I am happy with, and have some assurance that it is a valid recommendation. Or, purchase a mate to two machines I already own, and have a reasonable expectation that the new one will perform similarly. And if I'm one of those really anal purchasing engineers, working for a reputable purveyor of woodworking tools, I can review their standards to see if they are producing things with tolerances and a quality assurance program I'm comfortable with putting my company's label on.
There is an old western with I think Jimmy Stewart in it about a one in a thousand rifle. The old Winchester lever action rifles in the early 1870-s production would have one in a thousand, where the moon and stars aligned, and all the tolerances were right on, and it was a wonder rifle, that would shoot sub minute of angle groups when they did the factory tests. Which also implies that one in a thousand, would misfeed, not shoot straight, and be a better weapon as a club than a rifle.
In an ISO factory, they are either going to be consistently good, or consistently bad.
Dukeone,
Careful what you ask for...you may get it. :-)
ISO is the International Organization for Standardization (go figure why it isn't IOS).
In a nut shell ISO is - Tell me what you do / Show me how you do it / and prove to me that you did it.
The company first sets up a written system. It then sets up a tracking system that documents the process of manufacturing and quality control. This includes the tooling and instrumentation used in the process, materials used, the purchasing process, the storage process, and the shipping process. Client satisfaction is monitored closely, by polling clients and reviewing the documentation received. All negative responses are investigated internally and corrective actions taken and recorded. These actions are followed up. If the client stops complaining about the item that needed correcting, it is considered a issue that needs no more attention for the time being. Manufacturing deficiencies found during quality control are also investigated and corrective and preventative measures initiated to avoid them in the future and correct them in the present. There is a company committee to oversee ISO and the owners of the company need to be directly involved in the committee process.
Audits are done internally to insure that the processes established by the company are followed, and then an external accredited body will come in to the company once a year and audit the system, making recommendations for improvement and identifying non-conformities in the system.
ISO does not insure that you get first class product. It does insure that there is an existing process and follow up to insure that the process is respected. It also insures that the client feedback is requested and reviewed.
You can still get a dud bandsaw from an ISO accredited company.
I went to an ISO body shop to have my car repaired and painted. When I picked it up, some of the work I asked for had not been done, and when I arrived home, I found a small plywood stool/bench, used sandpaper and an air palm sander in the trunk of the car. So much for ISO quality control.
Buyer beware. JL
JL: I guess I was misinformed on the value of ISO. Don't quite remember where I picked up the idea that it was of value, it could have been part of their ad campaign maybe via Thomas Register. KDM
http://www.thomasnet.com/"... Buy the best and only cry once.........
It is of value Dukeone, but only as good a value as the participants want to make it.
Well done, it structures the organization and insures ongoing review to look for bugs to repair and directions for improvement.
All the registrars will sell the system, ( they get paid for helping to maintain it) and it is generally a good one, but it is not a guarantee for quality, even though they call it a quality system. The guarantee comes from the individuals from within the organization and their degree of involvement. JL
Edited 1/1/2007 8:46 pm ET by jeanlou
Hi Lakeboy,
Congratulations on your retirement. It is easy for poople, (is that spelt right?), to take offense at the written word and poople with chips on their shoulders (instead of at the foot of their workbench), will search for ways two get offended. I read your note and took it to mean that you want to buy American. Good for you I am also proud of our country. Smart manufacturers like Toyota, BMW, Mercedes have set up shop here and somehow they are successful even with our 'illiterate' workers.
Industrial quality machinery is heavy and if you have a dedicated shop where you will have stationary tools buy what you want. Take with a grain of salt the marketing slogan that lighter is better. If I am in business and I have to ship my products half way around the world and get people to buy them and still make a profit I would try to sell with that slogan too. Shipping heavy machinery is expensive.
There are many great ideas and helpful people on the forums at Taunton but there are people with axes to grind too. A great feature of the site is the ability to "ignore" people. I have taken this occasion to ignore 'flamers' to your post. In the lower left corner of the posted messages there is an Options pull down menu. Click on the down arrow and you have several choices. I come to the forum for the joy of sharing woodworking passion not politics.
I would like to apologize to the responses to your post and to add that I assume your intentions are honorable.
Best of luck to you and let us know how your shop comes along.
Regards,
Ken
"Do as you would be done by." C.S. Lewis
"I read your note and took it to mean that you want to buy American."
Uh, not so much. He apparently would be happy to buy Canadian, German, or Swiss as well. So nationalism isn't driving his revulsion at them unskilled "TIWANese." Any other guesses?
there have been tools talked about on this forum (maybe rigid?) that quietly went from being made in europe to the far east. those tools have been discussed here as being obviously lower quality after the shift. the perception of reduced quality by manufacturing location is a common one. when i was growing up "made in japan" was the butt of jokes. things change. this fellow has been corrected, rightly so, perhaps some more solid advice is in order and then we move on.
thank you for the congrats. on retirement .please do not appoligise for the frustration of the minority . HAPPY NEW YEAR. LAKE
Well Ken, I to am proud to be an American too, so much so, I spent a couple years getting shot at for her. But man, you have to admit, this guy’s post really doesn’t make very much sense and his level of understanding about anything is limited at best, not to mention slamming one of the USA’s staunchest allies, (Taiwan, you know shack dwellers). This would be the poster child for the “ugly American” so much of the world sees us as. Also, a lack of computer skills is no reason not to understand basic grammar.
As to the President, well, speaking as a “true” conservative, (not a Republican, mind you but a CONSERVATIVE), he is a buffoon. Why must every Bush supporter bring up Clinton, or Gore or Kerry??? G.W.B. is the president, he is judged on HIS actions and outcomes, period. Not how he compares to his challengers or predecessors, and on the merit of his time in office, he is a failure.
Hmmm, a fine kettle of fish...
I purchased Delta's X5 (or is it 5X) 14-inch bandsaw, last year partly because it was the last Delta bandsaw made in the US (or should I say assembled in the US).
IMO the saw was not any higher in quality than the JET or the Powermatic and maybe wasn't quite as good as either in fit or finish.
If I had it to do again I'd taek a hard look at the saws and not the country of origin.
David C
"If I had it to do again I'd take a hard look at the saws and not the country of origin."
Dang, that is quite sensible. And the thread was becoming quite entertaining. Unfortunately it seems that Good Old Lakeboy has been taken out by both enemy and friendly fire- he is not reading his messages.Philip Marcou
Somethings getting lost in this discussion....
So if all these "facts" are true how is it that these highly intelligent well paid advanced workers can make and SHIP a heavy machine across the Pacific Ocean for less than we can make one in our own back yard?
Something doesn't add up... Now a few years back I had friends in the bicycle industry who toured some of the frame manufacturing shops. Strictly 3rd world! No respiration, eye protection for paint or welding fumes etc.... Guys barefoot, working on the floor etc.. I saw the photos! They'd be shut down in a heart beat in any "modern" country! And don't start about engineers etc.. they aint the ones doing manual labor! And the fact we elected W has little bearing as well.
This is about the working man..which most of here are. We can make a living at our skill and don't fool yourself into some alturistic fervor that Taiwan is some bastion of freedom for the working man.
If you want less expensive tools of good quality and good price..buy the danged Taiwanese made whatever. Just don't try to sell some crappola about it..
And count your lucky stars they don't import wood work either or you'd be crying the same tune many of our fellow metalworking craftsman are!
lakeboy... it's perfectly fine and acceptable to vote with your dollars! But let Powermatic know your moneys going elsewhere!
10saw
Well, how about that! Finally a post that is sensible, logical and balanced. Whew! I was beginning to wonder with all of this political PMS if there would ever be a post on this topic without the shrill shriek of sensibility run amok.
<Somethings getting lost in this discussion....
So if all these "facts" are true how is it that these highly intelligent well paid advanced workers can make and SHIP a heavy machine across the Pacific Ocean for less than we can make one in our own back yard?>
Uhh, that would be due to the fact that they don't all drive SUVs and live in McMansions. Seriously, a livable wage in those nations is far less than here in the US, which is why guys with no skills working a machine getting paid $40/hour lose their jobs in favor of a guy who can be paid $40/week or even a month (and enjoy a higher standard of living than they previously were).
JH
" Seriously, a livable wage in those nations is far less than here in the US, which is why guys with no skills working a machine getting paid $40/hour lose their jobs in favor of a guy who can be paid $40/week or even a month (and enjoy a higher standard of living than they previously were)."THANK YOU...For making my point!So what we are saying is it's all well and good for woodworkers to get their wage (I get @ $30 hr as a finish carpenter) but not for metalworkers. Ya know there are plenty of "illegals" and I spent about 9 months in a "border town" and as a result my wage dropped to about $12hr. Mostly due to folks like you with this attitude; ie the American worker gets paid too much. (But it's all well and good for corporate types to get 7 figure "bonuses")
Till this strikes home there is little concern. I'm not debating the quality of Taiwan tools, many are more than adequate for most woodworkers. My gripe is the lemming like willingness to abandon local resourses in favor of cheap labor and then pontificating on the virtues of said foreign labor.I'll state it again: Many of the southern "border towns" have already seen a drop of woodworkers wages due to the influx of cheaper labor. If your so removed from such an economy, count your blessings. Many of us are being priced out of our homes due to the fact our bills don't drop with wages.The metalworker has already been dealt a heavy blow due to this attitude.Just try to remember this when you buy foreign made products..and pray they don't start making "quality" wood products or you'll be making $40 a week!10saw
10,
So.... do you think your job should be protected? Why?
I changed my skills a few times to remain valuable as a labour commodity. This is what capitalism does to labour - it makes it a commodity like any other. The reality of global capitalism is even more harsh. But, hey, fight it if you can (you'll lose).
Perhaps you think another socio/economic model is appropriate? I know I do but, being a conservative-anarchist at bottom, I know it will have to evolve rather than be planned by some revolutionary with a vsion. (I don't care to "meet the new boss", etc, as they always have a Great Big Broom with which to Sweep Clean - into the gulag or similar.....).
Lataxe, a stoic
"10,So.... do you think your job should be protected? Why?
I changed my skills a few times to remain valuable as a labour commodity. This is what capitalism does to labour - it makes it a commodity like any other. The reality of global capitalism is even more harsh. But, hey, fight it if you can (you'll lose)."Yes I'll lose with a world that thinks like you!HEY is this the concenses at Knots!!!?? Every man, every craftsman for himself?While I don't profess to be an expert on economics or foregn affairs there are plenty of laws, taxes, tarifs etc that are desinged to protect / support local/state/national economies. Ever heard of farm subsities where folks are paid for NOT having a working farm?A few years back Japan wasn't allowing rice to be imported (possibly still) to protect it's economy and more to the point the craft of farming! Once a generation slips by with no new crafstman you are at the mercy of others.Why aren't things made like thgye used to be? Because in many instances the string has been broken. The heritage of craftsmanship long gone. Pride in work out the window as we become a nation of comnsumers and fewer and fewer skilled laborers.The idea of fellow craftsman supporting each other that foreign or radical an idea for ya?The idea that web designers can get $80 hr but a skilled carpeneter with 20+ years relegated to $12hr is a reality we have to live with in many instances.I just can't get over the willingness heck I'll say it the SELFISHNESS of many here at Knots who appear all to ready to cut anothers throat and justify it with BS!10saw
Is not a skiiled worker in another country a fellow craftsman?------------------------------------
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools. -- Herbert Spencer (1891)
"Is not a skiiled worker in another country a fellow craftsman?"SureBut you have only addressed a small part of my post.See if you can address the other issues and we'll talk...10saw
I am unsure of your position. Are you in favor of tariffs and other forms of protectionism for your job or against them?
Are you saying you are more deserving of a living wage than a skilled craftsman who happens to live in another country?
Please clarify your position and I will address the other issues.------------------------------------
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools. -- Herbert Spencer (1891)
Your thinking WAY TOO MUCH!!If you value local resources SUPPORT THEM.What I'm really talking about is a supposed group of craftsman who have little concern for other LOCAL craftsman and gladly abandon local resources to save a dime..and then use sophomoric arguments to justify there mind set.If you value local resources SUPPORT THEM.Do I want Gov't protection for my job? NO!
I expect an atmosphere of unity among fellow workers in my area. Sorry this doesn't concern Taiwanese machinists or Nepalese weavers. They can support each other locally. The simple fact is it's starting to sound like a foreign idea around here that we support each other.How much did you spend at the mall or the internet opposed to local craftsman for Christmas this year? If you have no appreciation for hand made items where you shake the hand that made them, all well and good, just don't expect me to buy any of your woodworking. Maybe you can find a market for your goods in Taiwan...If you have no interest in supporting local craftsman, fine. I'll just present the "facts" as I have experienced them and not badger you into seeing things my way. You can live the rest of your life shopping at the mall and making bird house for your kids on the best value you can find tablesaw. If you don't think a local community is enhanced but having local artists and craftsman and yes even skilled laborers who support each other that's perfectly fine.But if your a woodworker who makes a living at your hand work, and markets your work as "craftsman made" don't think your hypocrisy goes un noticed.Oh yea! I'm real impressed by all of the concern you all have for the Taiwanese laborer. Very touching! IS this what is meant by "bleeding heart liberal"?10saw
10,
One way to test the validity of assumptions within arguments is to examine their definitions; or to look at some of their consequences (besides the ones you want to promote that is).
For instance, in your support for local craftsmen, what defines "local". Is it purely geographical (5 mile radius, 20)? Or is it cultural (my State, country, English-speakers or whatever)? Does it include immediate neighbour-countries such as Canada or Mexico? Current allies throughout the world? Where are you going to place your tarif barriers or other controls to force local buying (because you will have to force it)?
And are you going to refuse to sell your goods or labour to non-locals? (If so, off flies your nose to spite your face). On the other hand, if you do sell to non-locals, do you expect it to be a one-way street forever? They will all be dead of poverty in a while and there goes a good portion of your market.
To what degree do you want your neighbours in the locale, whatever you define it to be, to support you? If you produce dross, shoddy or just less-than-the-best work, are they still to buy it? To what degree must they sacrifice their needs to your needs, when there is much better and cheaper stuff outside the locality? You seem to want them to subsidise you direct rather than via their taxes and a Government-paid subsidy.
***
However, I can think of several more cogent arguments than yours why buying local products and labour does make sense, in many circumstances. These arguments don't involve anyone sacrificing their best interest; or having to buy local at all times. They are also based on some real situations that you can observe working.
The people involved have adapted and now prosper. They complement the goods and labour of those elsewhere in the world as much as they compete with them. It's called win-win.
Would you like to hear these arguments; or do you prefer your 19th century ones?
Lataxe
David Ricardo--set firmly in the 19th century (1817-Principles of Political Economy and Taxation), had already figured out the benefits of free trade nearly two centuries ago. The arguments we get here are mostly pre-classical or just plain non-economic--it over dignifys them to call them merchantilist.)
Comparative advantage is one of the few theoretical propositions upon which economists almost universally agree. It is easy to show that all could be made better off (in all but a few rara avis situations) by free trade in the sense that the lower import prices will add enough to real incomes that the buyers could compensate those whose incomes suffered through loss of jobs and still come out ahead. But, fortunately, the economists aren't the dictators and, unfortunately, the real world mechanisms to compensate the job or income losers are not very adequate. Hence policy disagreements are rife.
A little more to add to the already simmering pot of stew:
Canada and the United States have a free trade agreement, yet this agreement was never respected by the United States as far as soft wood lumber was concerned. All kinds of reasons were given, and the world court in the Hague found not once, not twice but thrice for Canada in the dispute, but in the end, the new Canadian burpament (that is government) bent over and said with a smile, give it to me.
Canada left billions on the table, the USA ''protected'' the American forestry industry...they say...but in fact the only ones who were protected were the profit takers and the everyday forestry worker on both sides of the border was royally shafted. Americans can now pay several thousand dollars more to build a wood frame house and Canadians can collect pogie (that is unemployment insurance) and not have enough money to cross the border and purchase goods in the USA, as Canadians have done for generations.
So who is the winner? All I see is a lose lose situation.
The fact is that the world economy is global and that can only grow. We can learn to work with it and adapt so that all can be prosperous, or we can go down kicking and squealing, but in the end the shoes are still going to come from China, and the software is still going to be written in India, and the millwork and case goods are still going to be produced in China and Mexico. (I will not get into the rest of the products we use, like out computers that we all are posting with)
Cottage industry is still alive and well everywhere in the world except in North America. A family sets up to produce a single piece. Another family produces another piece. All the pieces are then sent to an assembly plant, where they are quality inspected and then assembled into the wood working machinery we buy (and other goods). I would love to protect our local industry and support it, but I can not afford to. I do not have 8000$ to buy a saw. If I could not buy a saw for 800$ I would not buy a saw. If the North American market place truly wanted to sell me a saw, then it would develop the system and the tools to be competitive with the ones that come from off shore. (maybe by developing a local cottage industry)...but here bigger is always better. Big plants to produce big items, and we can not even control the quality of the finished product without having to charge two and a half fortunes for the goods. The people that work for minimum wage, some of them would make great woodworkers, but they can not afford to even think about it.
I know that protectionism is not the solution to keeping the domestic market healthy. I read some other posts that hint at the same. I also read some others that think it is the only solution. We need to get out of the box and re-think. JL
more fuel to the fire
http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/JubaksJournal/WhyFewUSJobsAreGoingOverseas.aspx
It takes a hot fire to cook a stew.
The trend may slow down some, but there is already so much momentum that I will be long dead and fertilizing the flowers before things settle. In the mean time, think about this: India has one of the best business schools in the world and produce MBAs that cost about 20% of a North American produced MBA. Likewise with computer and software programers. Go to a shoe store and find a pair of shoes that you like, and then see where they are made. I seriously doubt that come from anywhere but China. We do not need to outsource to use off shore products and service, we can also import these products and services.
I have no issue with the offshore countries. They are doing business in an aggressive and exciting way. My peeve is with the North American mavens that do not seem to be adapting to the facts of life and finding a way to salvage local manufacturing. They mostly seem comfortable looking for less expensive sources wherever they can find them.
Give me some quality North American tools at a truly competitive price...can you do that Mr. and Mrs. CEO of North America, and still keep our people working? JL
Jeanlou,
I was hoping for 10s arguments but perhaps he has gone to glower somewhere. I was hoping he would converse.
There are a few arguments for buying local, even when the price is higher than for similar items from abroad.
Food is a good example. Being bulky, it costs a lot to ship and you have to do it all the time (food is a true consumable unlike LN or LV planes); and its not so much the immediate shipping costs as the hidden costs of high CO2 production or other pollution caused by high-traffic, long-distance transport.
In buying local food, you can also test for yourself (or have confidence in your local laws about) concerns such as animal welfare or use of peticides.
You can still buy the exotic (to you) fruits and beans from abroad, should you choose. The foreigners are no doubt grateful to be able to buy our haggis and pork pies in return.
Staple food and armament production (and maybe a few other types of strategically important items) need a local production-capability, it can be argued, as you are boogered when the war with your grain or aircraft supplier comes.
Even here, you can take the risk of buying abroad if you feel you are unlikely to go to war with a long term strategic partner. In many ways, forming such relationships of mutual trust and dependency in trade reduces the chance of war.
There are other such reasons for local buying but none of them exclude buying elsewhere, they just apply reasonable exceptions to absolutely free trade in certain circumstances and (at bottom) for good economic or political reasons. Even reasons such as these will disappear if we get over the top of the hysterisis curve and survive these early stages of global political, economic, scientific and technology evolution without a disaster.
One attitude almost guaranteed to bring that disaster is rabid parochialism and a blinkered belief that foreigners don't matter.
Lataxe
Lataxe,
I agree that it is absolutely necessary to support the local farmers and buy food that is grown/raised nearby, whenever possible. My wife is from the farm and I saw first hand what happens when the large industrial farms were created at the expense of the local people who have been producing our food all their lives. I also try to buy local goods other than food, but I can still see the writing on the wall, and I have no intention to ignore the message that is clear - times are changing and so we must adapt or wither. You are right about the tools we buy as hobbyists or retired tradespeople not being critical in the grand scheme of things. I do however enjoy my interests (passtimes) and am prepared to spend money cultivating these interests. It is too bad that local industry can not meet these needs the majority of the time. My machinery is a mix of local and imported machinery. My hand tools are the same, with the emphasis on imports. My computer comes from Japan but is surely made with Chinese or Korean parts. My car is Japanese, because I can drive it for 12 years without it falling apart . (Canadian winters tend to accelerate the process), and I could go on and on.
My mother worked in the textile industry when we used to have one here. Now the companies are all gone and imports have taken over. The next generation adapted and did something else. The same thing witll be for the generations to come. They will adapt or dry up on the stalk.
I missed your good sense posts last night.
Have a great New Year. JL
"I was hoping for 10s arguments but perhaps he has gone to glower somewhere. I was hoping he would converse."Your the proverbial dead horse that needs beating...Isn't it funny how bored some of us must be (me included<G>) to continue on this. It's like chocolate!!Anyway.
Mr Lataxe I don't quite understand you. On one hand you agree with me and I with you but you always have to bring up a negative and hang on that.Is it really that difficult to grasp? I think sometimes folks just try to muddy the waters, confuse an otherwise simple matter for just plain mischievous.I'll concede you are probably smarter than me, have more of a formal education. I work with my hands I'm a self supporting craftsman.
I base my decision on what I'm comfortable with and expressed pretty well for a jerk with a HS diploma (although I have over 25 college units! But oddly still 30 away from an AA-but I'm in AA so that should count for something!)I just don't have the time nor inclination to research every point of a tool purchase. Out of experience I have found a few "tricks" that work for me and a few that don't. One that didn't for a LONG time was tools that said made in Taiwan on them. Sure they are better now but the die is cast. I'll look closer IF NO OPTION but so far have only one Taiwan made tool (DeWalt DW 735 which was busted out of the box BTW! but I love it anyway..the new one!<G>).As a result of this and knowing some friends and family directly effected due to machining moving off shore I vote with my dollar and express my views here.I realize they won't hold up under sever scrutiny but that doesn't matter. I'll continue on as i have and not feel compelled to explain myself to you (unless another of these "can't put it down threads catches my eye<G>).And to the rest of you: You don't have to explain yourself either. Don't let these egg heads push ya around with their convoluted socio economic arguments. You want to buy USA or non Asia or what ever DO IT!
And fire off an email to the brands you almost bought and let them know.You'll change few minds here. Woodworkers are a stubborn lot.Lataxe as for you...well I'm growing to like ya! Sorta....<G>later,
10saw
10,
Aha! It is good to talk, after all. Also, I return your virtual hug. :-)
You mention that:, "Mr Lataxe I don't quite understand you. On one hand you agree with me and I with you but you always have to bring up a negative and hang on that".
Well, I have been over-educated and will prevaricate forever about the proverbial angels and how many can dance on the head of a pin - it's a variable number depending on....[curtailed by the Taunton anti-bore police].
I see arguments this way: not as a fight in which there is a winner and a loser but as a discussion in which points are made and refined via tough examination, until we both know more than we knew before. The "negative" is just a way of testing the "positive". Sometimes the polarity is reversed by the test.
So I can agree with some of what you say, disagree with other bits and (best of all) get wiser by taking some of your wisdom and blending it with mine. I hope you can do the same, so we both have a better understanding of the whatever-it-is. It is no sin, nor unmasculine, to change your mind if need be. (If it is, I am a great girly bad person).
We do this wisdom-via-arguing with WW topics all the time - no one except Rich (sorry Rich, need a scapegoat) gets that excited about rights and wrongs in WW. We just learn stuff from each other, via discussions containing disagreements but then resolutions. I offer the mallet discussion as a good example.
(I am ignoring Festool wars as a Special Case, of course - Festoolism is a religion. With politics and religion, its a bit harder to just discuss, as there are strong emotional attachments involved).
When I was young I was very adamant, on all subjects, as I believed I knew The Truth About Everything. Often I recall this state of mind and cringe internally with embarrassment. Harsh events taught me that "certainty" is a boomerang. I can show you my many boomerang-shaped scars, mental and the usual sort.
Lataxe, a dead horse with many uses and still a bit of a twitch in it.
i've held out as long as i can on this point. Lataxe, you really crack me up! it's good to see some humor in here. sometimes a bit verbose, many times you recite things that i've never heard of (particularly food items), but all in all it's pretty funny, oh, and informative too. wouldn't want to forget that.
This argument is almost identical to the ones brought up in the 60’s and 70’s when the auto industry in this country tried to convince us that we should spend our $20k avg. income on autos produced by $45k auto workers while cheaper better quality imports were available. We had to support our home grown workers. The same workers who left out screws , miss-aligned parts, and who wanted to make no concessions in wages or benefits or updating of manufacturing processes to improve quality or cost.
It was common practice in those days to get rid of an auto with over 90,000 miles on it because it was time to start having problems. The imports came in cheaper and were good for over 200,000 miles. But we should buy American.
If you don’t offer something unique, special, or better you have competition and you compete or fade away.
Of course there are always exceptions. Why does an Amish built house sell for more than another identical house built by local builder? If you weren’t told it was Amish built you wouldn’t know it. Perception of quality sometimes adds value. Right or wrong that’s the way it is.
Jack
Jack: The Amish built house? That is new to me; would you please give me/us a short explaination of the difference? I assume it has more attention to detail, hand made windows/doors/cabinets or is there more to it?
Thanks, Duke"... Buy the best and only cry once.........
Around here we have a lot of Mennonites and Holdermens , most people call them Amish, the are mostly in the construction trades. For some reason people think that if the stick built house, with 25year shingles, vinyl windows , and vinyl siding are better built because it was built by “Amish” craftsmen. Their construction techniques and materials are the same as the other builders in the area. I don’t know why this is true, I just know they usually get 15 to 20% more.
Jack
G,
Verbose, moi?!? You must be thinking of that Doug or James (pzgren) who both witter on and on until they get the "message truncated" thang. I hardly type anything, really.
Of course, those two uber-typists do have the odd interesting thing to say, whilst I can only manage one fact every 389 posts *.
* (Average so far. May improve by the year 2031. Taunton take no responsibiity for this poster or his unfortunate use of Geordie slang and quaint Britishisms).
Verbose, moi?!? if not verbose....shall we say prolific? and now were moving into french too!
money the observant
Lataxe me friend & amigo,
<<Verbose, moi?!? You must be thinking of that Doug or James (pzgren) who both witter on and on until they get the "message truncated" thang. I hardly type anything, really. >>
Witter on??? Mir? No, nichts, nein, Frankenstein! Never -- I am short, direct, laconic, and to the point: just barely sufficient-enough words to say what it is that I have to say and want to get across as my message and never, ever, ever an extra or redundant or repeated word or phrase anywhere or any place or for any reason or for any justification!!!
_____
Sly one that you are, you've probably come up with some magical hack that allows you to post lengthy missives without getting that truncated message marker -- something that us ordinary mortals ain't figgered out yet.....
Über-typist -- Wenn es nur zutreffend war!
BTW, I am glad to see that you have been paying attention and are now aware that Canada is the 51st state. Go to the head of the class! :-)
_____
Can someone help me get my tongue out of my cheek??? Please?? Whew!! Thanks!!Beste Wünschen auf ein glückliches und wohlbehaltenes Neues Jahr!
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
Mr. Axe:Good post! As well as several others in this thread. It is obvious that you have reached the totally agnostic phase. Are you aware that cynicism is next possibly followed by misanthropy? It all happens so imperceptibly,too!Cadiddlehopper
Cadid,
As I am a stoic, I will go with whatever flows about me. :-) On the other hand, you must not forget that I am inoculated against many of the more toxic memeplexes, courtesy of Professor Dennett and his ilk.
Lataxe
PS I tried to reply to your email but your mailserver is refusing my mail. I expect that somewhere in the chain of mailservers between thee and me there is one that is on a spam blacklist, so your mailserver rejects everything it routes.....?
Sort of "I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused" ?
Look out, cause if your table saw wings get rusted, the angels on the head of this pin are gonna want your 140 skews (plural assuming you get both left and right).
Apologies to Declan McManus et al.
"When I was young I was very adamant, on all subjects, as I believed I knew The Truth About Everything. Often I recall this state of mind and cringe internally with embarrassment. Harsh events taught me that "certainty" is a boomerang. I can show you my many boomerang-shaped scars, mental and the usual sort"Sadly I must confess I still fall into this trap, pride!Don't get me wrong..I'm right this time<G> (Wait a second...what're we talking about..?)(see how easy it is!)
But it's not about right is it? The die is way past cast. American industry, for instance is a vague ghost of it's past. The list I posted previously reads like an obituary. I've been lucky enough to work with some of those machines and there is a certain something about say an Atlas Drill Press that I don't see in the best of the current crop. The quote about the "dead horse" was more condemning of me as being the one who won't let it go, so I will resist the temptation to fire one more shot and go place an order for a Lie-Nielsen #4 1/2 while they are still made in USA!BTW I hope your insulated from the recent DTrump v. RosieO nonsense that has gripped the colonies! A perfect illustration of the way it can go when we lose respect for our selves and others.Ya ever find yourself down SoCal way drop by and I'll spring for tacos :^)10saw
10,
I hope those tacos will be locally made.... :-)
Funnily enough a fine LN No 140 has just fell in my lap, as has a Tite-mark gauge. Also, I confess to lusting after Blue Spruce chisels. The US manufacturers are not really dead but getting reborn as Producers of Quality.
Even though I am a foreigner, I have bought them Yankee things rather than the much cheaper clones from the Far East. (There is no equivalent even made in Blighty, as far as I can see). They are best value in terms of $/lifetime-year and satisfaction-quotient.
I might try a Tite-mark clone for 30% of the price, though, just to compare for myself.......
Lataxe, citizen of the 51st state (or possibly 52nd, Canada being the 51st).
"I hope those tacos will be locally made.... :-)"Absotivley!I'll take you on a tour that will include some used machinery shops and maybe you can drag home a nice lightweight Parks planers or the like<G>Can't wait till next time!10saw
Maybe you can show him that locally made Festool you just bought!------------------------------------
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools. -- Herbert Spencer (1891)
Ohhhh BustedDGreen is THE MAN!He totally nailed me buying Festool instead of the USA equivalent...of which I didn't like the options..PC Router. bleechhh! we have a friendly discussion going on cross forum if your interested.Here's what I got for those of you who have better things to do that monitor my threads.TS75 rail saw, CT22 dust collector, 1400 Router, and EQ125 5" sander. Freakin' AMAZING! I'm so glad I got them! I'm remodeling a kitchen and have been able to easily do everything I did with a large stationary shop and in what actually seems a quicker more efficient fashion. I can throw my entire shop in my Toyota (USA Made doncha know<G>)Festool has figured it out! Make a superior product and it will sell! While most others are going cheap and shipping jobs off shore Festool has taken the other approach and raised the bar.Man I wish Milwaukee, or Delta, or Powermatic or Porter Cable or who even would take note. This is exactly what i was driving at! I'm not independently wealthy. That said my motto is:Buy the best and cry once.If you feel I'm a hypocrite...so be it. I'm beyond stoked with the Festool! ya know I can use the router in my Moms living room and she wouldn't even know! It collects pretty much 100% of the dust!!! can't wait to buy my next Festool machine...maybe that Domino will be out soon...or maybe that planer.....those cordless drill rock! A Multi Function Table for sure!I saw they actually make a small table saw that looks intriguing but foreign reviews I've seen are luke warm...Guess what...pretty much all those tools i mention are no longer made in USA....sigh...good old days have come and gone.But Festool BABY!!!!!!!Do you think it's too late for the USA companies follow suit and make more expensive better tools? The "elite series" or what ever Madison Ave. can come up with market it...10saw
"Do you think it's too late for the USA companies follow suit and make more expensive better tools? The "elite series" or what ever Madison Ave. can come up with market it..."
If they did, we couldn't afford it!
An honest question: don't you think there is a connection between all the trends discussed in this thread and the development of the Festool system?
I see your point,It's been a mix of jingoism and a search for quality.Yes to me Festool is the ultimate answer. Note my complaint wether expressed clearly or not was not towards Taiwanese manufactures but mostly the USA cos. moving manufactuering off shore to Taiwan. But once again this thread has been all over and I reserve the right to say and think what I want.Back to Festool: They have offered tools that are NOTICEABLY better than counterparts. They have NOT decided to shave off a few dollars here and there and compromise on quality. My ulterior motive has been to get some sort of a conclusion that we like high quality and will pay for it. I'd not be surprised to find that many manufactures monitor forums like this and see the responses. And they are always looking to shave pennies off at the expense of quality. The pennies go directly to the pockets of the board members. We usually don't benefit. All they need is the idea your satisfied and they will ratchet down quality again. See recent USA Powermatic and Delta as examples.How does Festool jibe with this? HEY! USA TOOL MANUFACTURES! WE HAVE MONEY AND WILL SPEND ON QUALITY! I VOTED WITH MY DOLLAR AND BOUGHT THE BEST I COULD FIND NOT THE MOST ECONOMICAL!This is a win-win situation. Jobs are kept at home, quality is higher. No it's not at that point. I see the point we're at is the one where you better be saying and doing something and letting "them" know.Or like most here have said:"hey usa/taiwan tool manufactures this stuff is ok"Which do you think will result in higher quality?BTW I have come clean.It's be nice to see all you Taiwan/ china honks come clean and post what you have in your shops.Let's see them receipts from Harbor Freight!<G>10saw
I appreciate your honesty and frankness, and I like to support local businesses with my dollars too. To me the difference isn't expressed in where the product is made as much as who profits from my decision. I'd rather buy organic, fair trade produce from a Mexican farmer than a big, US agr. business farm even if the product I buy is the same. With tool purchases, this ethos is pretty hard to follow unless you want to get really spendy with LN or Hotley planes. I'm driven more innovation and quality. I guess I imagine (maybe stupidly) that well made, innovative tools provide more profit to tradespeople, inventors, and factory workers as opposed to soulless execs. My opinion is that we should walk with our dollars - however short a distance they may carry us - to let the manuf. know they missed the boat. Of course many will fail to heed the message like the US auto industry. But there is hope for US innovators. I'm surprised no one has mentioned sawstop. From all reports a high quality saw and very innovative. It's technology may presage the return of US tool innovation after the trad. tools makers have all merged, ossified, and become irelevant. I'll climb down now.
Mr 1,
You have hit the proverbial nail reet squarely.
Some may prefer those old demarcations of the nation-state; but the planet is really our home, so making decisions on how to relate to other people (including tool manufacturers) is best done, as you suggest, according to their behaviour as Earthlings, rather than as parishoners of Backwater-up-the-Creek.
There is now a global economy and this is the fiscal ecology we must understand, if we are to see what effects our buying decisions are to have. As I flutter my butterfly's wing of a £5 note here in Galgate (via the plastic and computers of the international banks) so I may cause effects in China, the US or even New Zealand.
As you suggest, I look for not just immediate price but also (as far as I can) the long term and peripheral effects of my buying decisions. A balance must be struck between short-term gain and the (most obvious, at least) long-term consequences. I do not wish Mr Big Oil of Texas to prosper to the degree he would like; and feel Marcou planes should succeed over Anants.
We may conspire (via those nation-state governments we elect) to ostracise Cuba and similar, without having to worry too much about them getting p*££3d and lobbing something nasty. (Even so, I buy Cuban whenever I can, as I recall The M Crisis). But are we wise to economically (or otherwise) isolate the likes of N Korea or Iran? One day they may lob; and then we will all lob; and then we will die fast or slowly.
No more sheds, no more tool-toys; no more....anything. The Chimp and his poodle-weasle will enjoy their bunkers, no doubt. They will converse for years about how they were right...and no one to gainsay them.
Can one purchase an Iranian plane these days?
Lataxe of Galgate, The World.
Edited 1/10/2007 3:29 pm ET by Lataxe
Edited 1/10/2007 3:31 pm ET by Lataxe
Thought I'd go ahead and come clean as to my tool purchases as I seemed to rile at least one member by my Festool purchase.While doing a list for insurance purposes I went ahead and made a
"country of origin" list:Here's my shop mid rebuild:USA
Milwaukee Super Sawzall
Skill Mag 77 saw
Bosch 1617 Router
Makita LS1013 SCMS
Benchdog Router Table and acc.
Senco Nailers
Shop-Vac
Jorgenson clamps
Various Lie-Nielsen, planes, saws, chisels
many "antique" Stanley tools and some Starrett etc...
Ruffian Tool totesCanada
Veritas honing guide
WorkmateItaly
Rol-Air compressorGermany
Hilti hammer drill
Festool TS75,
Festool1400 Route
Festool 125 Sander
Festool CT22 Dust collector
Bessey K-Body Clamps
Stabila LevelsIsrael
Amana Router BitsSwiss
Bosch JigsawJapan
Panasonic 12v drill
Max framing nailerTaiwan
Dewalt 735 PlanerMexico
Dewalt 755 belt sanderchina
NOTHING! Yea!Now I have an archive on line too!Dead horse beater,10saw
10saw,
You seemed pleased that you don't own any Chinese made stuff..
Why is that?
History has shown that the absolute best way to conquer any nation is to trade with them.. That way they get exposed to our great ideas and we get the benefit of the things they can do well.
IF you want to overthrow China's goverment without shedding an once of American blood then by all means trade with them..
One of the things America does best is make food.. China has a history of starvation. 1/3 of the worlds population with only 17% of the aireable land. Sounds like a natural fit to me..
China also has few natural resources. They recently bought an Iron mine in Minnesota that had been closed because the old owners couldn't make a profit.. They are big buyers of our midwest hardwoods, and soybeans.. They would have bought a whole lot of Boeing planes except President Bush ruined that deal..
They put people back to work at great paying jobs in an area where any job is rare.. They mine the ore, ship it thru the great lakes and to China to make stuff and then ship it back to America where we wind up with the benefit of their efforts.
If there is one guilty party in all of this it's the American Upper class. They have found that it is more profitable to close American plants, export our jobs and reap great rewards..
China can make a profit while dramatically increrasing the lifestyle of it's citizens..
IF America enjoyed the growth that China has, Your income would double every few years. IN Fact Since Ping Pong diplomacy started. Chinese income has doubled nearly 15 times.. If you make $50,000 per year now, in 25 years your income would be something on the order of 3.4 million per year!
Frenchy,
With an income of 3.5 million per year for the average carpenter, the cost of a truck to haul the tools around from job to job would be in the order of about 2.75 million...we would still be in the same place as we are today. The upper crust would be rolling in it, the lower crust would be wondering where the heck it wasa and the greatly reduced middle class would be taxed to hell so they could pay for it all. Nothing ever really changes that much. JL
jeanlou,
actaully that's not the case in China.. It used to be the three things a Chineese person tried to acquire was a bycycle, a radio and a bowl of food..
Today in China it's a car their own home and a computer..In spite of that the average chinese saves half his pay every year, Half!
Watch some of the cable shows that feature China as it is today.. They are vastly ahead of us in many respects.. Look at things like traffic lights, They count down how much longer the lights going to be green thus you know when you are risking running a red light..
They make the best state of the art cell phones 4 and 5 generations ahead of Our currant crop. Much of China is quickly getting wireless, Whole cities of 300,000 or more are built in a couple of years.. China Builds more freeway miles in a year Than America does in well over a decade!
Auto production is increasing at a fantastic pace. They are building new jet liners in China, and in many industries they are ahead of America..
Sure there are problems.. but they aren't ignoring them.. Surprisigly there are many local experiaments with democracy where candidates not in the party are winning against party selected candidates..
Not many to be sure but enough so that the governement can explore the concept and how it works..
It's not Inflation in CHina, they save Half of their income. Half!
and still are getting much more in the way of personal possesions..
Frenchy,
China is definitely a dynamic country, but they still have a long way to go in approaching Western styles of doing business and we have a long way to go to understanding them...but the the ship has already sailed and it is now only a matter of time. The world is definitely changing and maybe one day we (not me, I will be long dead and decayed)will be witness to a truly global community. JL
Jeanlou,
Dynamic indeed! your comments are spot on.. well said.
History has shown that the absolute best way to conquer any nation is to trade with them.. That way they get exposed to our great ideas and we get the benefit of the things they can do well.
Yup! I think China has figured this one out. Considering that they won't accurately value their currency against the dollar, we get to flood their economy with our money while they flood our markets with cheap goods. They get more money, we get more stuff.
One of the things America does best is make food.. China has a history of starvation. 1/3 of the worlds population with only 17% of the aireable land. Sounds like a natural fit to me..
Of course, that is also an incentive for war ;-) With a standing army of 200 million men China would be tough to beat (if not impossible) without resorting to ultimate measures. For those that have mystic tendencies, consider that 1900 years ago, the apocalyptic writer John foresaw the "kings of east" with an army of, you guessed it, 200 million men. Rather astounding since the worlds total population in A.D. 1 was 200 million.
Now, I'm not worried -- as long as they keep making stuff for me to buy, and as long as I have money, I think they will be pacified. :-)
Edited 1/6/2007 1:37 pm ET by pzaxtl
pzaxtl,
200 million indeed, can they all hold their breath for an extremely long period of time while the walk on the floor of the Pacific ocean to attack us? They sure as heck don't have the ships to bring them here..
If you look at China's 5000 year history you won't find them ever engaged in military wars to expand. The absolute worst they've ever done is defend their borders, Vietnam, Korea etc. were all Border countries..
I'm not kidding about starving Don't forget just prior to Nixons visit to China, as many as 50 million Chinese starved to death due to the failure of Maos great leap forward.. He put the whole country to work making Iron smelting furnaces to provide China with the iron she needed to become a world power. everybody, from college professors to farmers was required to smelt so many tons of Iron..
Since farmers were busy smelting, crops weren't planted and people starved.. China's whole history has that same theme, periodic starvation.. Sure China has a massive labor pool, but they lack food, always have always will..
America is the worlds bread basket, China needs food.. can you honestly give me a better fit?
Well if you look into it I think you will be amazed at the build up in shipping that they are doing. They have also managed to build a ship that is a good match to our (the US Navy) best destroyer. Look under O52 I think is what they are called but don't hold me to it I would have to check one of my reference books. And it even has a variation of the Aegis system on it. Something a lot of people in The US, Taiwan, Japan and English navies are NOT happy about.
Also please keep in mind that the US went from so so to superpower in about 4 years during the last war because we had the manufacturing ability.
As for their never getting into a war of aggression. Well their is always a first time. And lets be honest here for a secound for the time when China was a power the only wars you could get into were with neighbors (hard to get on your horse and attack a country on the other side of the planet, and skip everythign in between) and when the tech was available to do this, then China was not in a position to do anything as they were a weak country.
Doug Meyer
DougMeyer
Please think about the economics of attacking the US..
How the heck would you get that 200 million man army to our shores? Once here what about bullets bombs and bulletins (Ok a stretch, I'm trying to be funny about the massive amounts of support and logistics required to fight a war)..
Roughly for very combat soldier there needs to be 10 support staff. That an awfull lot of mouths to feed from a country that seldom is capable of even feeding itself.
What would they achieve? Do you think there is anyway they can occupy America and steal our wheat? What would it cost to do so? Now compare that cost to to simply buying the wheat on the open market.
Let's see Amrica has spent well in excess of 500 billion dollars in Iraq thus far.. How much oil would 500 billion dollars buy?
Understand my point?
As for the Chineese destroyer? What! you've got to be kidding me. Our oldest sub could wipe out dozens of them and still be undetected.. Not to mention just how vulnerable surface ships are to airplanes.. Maybe you should read a little bit about battleships during WW2 . most were sunk by airplanes.. The only battleship to battleship sinking I can think of was HMS Hood which blew up with a lucky shot.. The chance of a destroyer to destroyer conflict is so tiny as to be insignificant.
Come on, you guys, China isn't going to invade the US, they will buy it. They presently hold billions in debt dollars,and are steadily increasing.
Uh Frenchy,
Just so you know I have a collocation of books and such on military tech that takes up a book case at least 8' wide and well over 4' tall. I have spent large parts of my life studying military Tech, as it fascinates me. I would love to figure out some what of combining my love of History and my love of tech stuff (like military tech) to make a living but the idea of being a teacher is not something that interests me. I can't understand why I mean I do so well with people that disagree with me. :)
But as for the issue with the invasion and the issue with the ships. Well first off I never said they would. I said that any rational country has a way of protecting itself. I would no more be happy about not being able to build a military that did not require me to ask another country for permission to buy from them then I would be happy to allow someone else to tell me if I can buy food for myself or where I can live. I pay for insurance on my house and car and hope to never need them but you have to have them because you don't know. I view the military the same way, and being dependent on others for parts of it is like buying fire insurance that the insurance company does not have to honor if they don't feel like it.
Now for the ships. The Arly Burke (sp) class DDs (I think they are DDG but I really don't recall) are considered by many to be the best Destroyer in the world. The new design from England will be interesting to compare with it. Anyway this is built with a version of the Aegis (sp?) air defence system. This is also considered by many to be the best air defence system in the world and according to everything I have ever read is not something any sane pilot wants to go against. It was designed to stand off a swarm of incoming missiles and aircraft that the old USSR could toss at a ship in the Atlantic. This system is in short designed to allow a group of ships to fight against just that air threat.
So when people of high rank in the US navy. The Japanese navy and even the English navy look at the newest Chinese ship and say that it is built with a a clone of the aegis system I think it is something we should worry about. I don't think that anyone sold it to them. They may have developed it themselves. They may have stolen it I don't care but according to a lot of experts they have it. This means they are not a joke. They are also only the 3rd country to put people into space on their own.
So will they be a danger? I don't know. But I think it only makes sense to protect yourself just in case. This is not England we are talking about, we do not have a long history of playing nice with each other. Remember that Japan wanted resources also and look what happend. And lets be honest for good or bad for right or wrong the relationship of the US to the rest of the world is not great so allowing someone else to have a say in our defence (by having to buy stuff from them) is not a good idea. Ask Argentina about that. I bet they loved the fact that bought from France during the Falklands Island War. Now England may have been happy but that did not help Argentina.
As for some others, No I don't need to be right all the time, and just because I disagree with you does not mean that you are wrong. It means that we have a difference of opinion, and that is fine as long as people realize that other people can disagree and still have valid points. This is something that I don't see much of. Their is some good in free trade but not for everyone and around were I am a LOT of people are being badly hurt by it. And the military issue is just one example of why you want to keep some manufacturing ability. Thier is two sides to most things but most peaple think the other guy is wrong when they disagree. Normlly the only thing i allwas disagree with is someone that says that the other side has no case. If it was clear cut their would not be an argument. And as for the idea that everyone will be better off. Uh when will that happen? When the big three close up shop of the little tool company goes under who is going to train thier workers to get one of these new better jobs? Right now no one is. So are they supposed to go to work for wall mart?
Sorry for going on but I did not see how to make this post shorter.
Doug Meyer
Doug,
You needn’t apologize for the length of your post. When I said that not everyone will has the time or inclination to write such a long response I was pointing out that some posters answers will be short and sweet and may not be as detailed as you would like.
I agree with you that if there is two sides to a situation then it is not clear cut. I also don’t like the name calling and condescension when some one disagrees with you. I don’t mind a bite if someone points out something I have said as being wrong but would appreciate a explanation rather than just berating me.
If I believe you to be mistaken or foolish I will point it out and tell you why. If I just disagree with you I will say so but may or may not give an explanation as it may be based on something as simple as personal preference rather than science, logic, economics, or even common sense.
As I said before , you need to learn the players. Some will argue just for that sake of arguing. Some will have their minds set and nothing you say will even be considered as any thing but claptrap. Most will discus and issue with you using logic (sometimes faulty logic) a and courtesy Most of all don’t take anything said that is bad or spiteful to heart and you needn't be defensive about having a position, to many don't.
Jack
Doug - Is there an indication that US military contractors are faring poorly? I'd always heard that the US was the #1 exporter of arms in the world. And do you really believe China would destroy its best market? Rather than as an offensive weapon, China probably sees the need to defend itself from air strikes from Taiwan, Russia, Japan, or US planes in Korea.
Edited 1/11/2007 1:00 am ET by bakesale1
Maybe the West is missing the idea. Perhaps the way to compete with the offshore companies, is to unionise them. Instead of threatening sanctions or war, just send over our well trained union leaders, and in no time at all, the playing field will be equal, and North America will be back in the game. The only sacrifice we would have to make, is that we would have to reduce our expectations for quality products. But at least our unemployment rate would be reduced.
Brian
Doug Meyer,
It's far more interesting discussing things with someone who disagrees with me than those who are in complete agreement, I mean what can we say?<G>
Your posts tend to be well thought out and intelligent so I like to respond to them..
With 7 years active and two reserve experiance I feel that I know about as much about military strengths and weakness as the next man.. Sure I flew rather than was on surface ships but that does not prevent me from understanding their limits and purposes.. (with two combat tours in Vietnam I suspect I know more than most about the horrors and senselessness of war)
Simply because I don't like wars I'm not foolish enough to believe that they will ever go away.
However I learned that captains want to make admirals.. That running your own ship is a very fine thing.. The amibtion of doing so can cause them to overstate the case for new ships..
Frankly as much fun as I had flying off carriers I don't think they are terribly important.. If they were then other nations would have them as well. America is the only nation using them, why? Because they cost over 2 million dollars a day to operate. They have an extremely limited ability to project power.. if you blow up some headquarters it's pretty darn easy to move next door or wherever.. That missle you just launched cost over a million dollars to build a decade ago and you are using it to blow up some mud hut?
Look at the resources we spent trying to get Osama Bin Laden without success..
When (and if) he's caught it will be some grunt on the ground who does it.. Not some Tomcat at 30,000 feet! Chances are some new cheap quiet drone will spot him and once again new technology will lead the way.
As for a threat from China. We spend more on one ship than the Chineese spend on their whole fleet.. Destroyers are short range ships not intended to threaten America.. Of course they built a good one and yes they probably got some ideas from America, after all we are the leaders aren't we? who else should they follow? Frankly it would be nice if they copied us, best way to know that you are ahead of them..
I'll bet they solved the problems themselves.. it's foolish indeed to think that you are smarter than your enemy.
China isn't our military enemy. She's too smart for that.. She's our economic enemy. Everytime we launch a new aircraft carrier we are giving them a further advantage, every billion spent on Iraq puts them a billion ahead of us.
While we spend billions and billions on our military and a war on drugs that can't be won China is spending money on infrastructure which will yield them long term gains..
Our military at best gets us short term gains.. IF WE WIN! We lost in Vietnam and we are losing in Iraq and not doing well in Afganistan.. (we should leave as soon as Osama Bin Ladin is caught) Russia stayed too long and look at what it cost her!
We won in Japan and Germany and for a brief while could benefit from that win.. soon we were spending our winnings on the cold war with the Soviet Union. We won the cold war but quickly spent the benefits on Gulf war 1
We won that war but quickly spent those winnings on Gulf war 2
Frenchy: This is competly off topic, but I was listening to an "expert" on China, and his position was that China's one child policy has been so successful that it will become old very fast, w/30 years or so. So fast that before it has the chance to grow sufficiently rich, it will have a grey population that it will need to support and too few workers.
bakesale1
That is actually a very good thing, China simply cannot feed herself as things stand.. 1/3 of the worlds population with only 17% of the aireable land. A significant portion of that has been polluted or plowed under to make way for whole new cities. There is also loss due to rods and freeways plus all the land lost when the 3 Gorges dam floods completely
However China isn't foolish she already has slightly relaxed the one child per family rule.
China should make a soft landing..(and will do so right about the time the problem will be worst in Japan, Europe, and North America)..
I like too the fact that in a small way on some smaller village councils they have actaul direct elections where the Communist candidate doesn't always get elected!
China makes changes slow but as she gains knowledge and exeriance on how to make things work she moves ahead.
Frenchy - your points are well taken. I'm not suggesting my opinion of the policy, only it's relation to the view of China as a threat. I still remember that in the 80's, during the time of Japan Inc. and the purchse of Rock. center in NYC, many people predicted the demise of the US and surpremacy of Japan. It didn't work out that way, and Japan spent an entire decade trying to return to growth. Despite all its gains, China has many issues to overcome, many of which aren't as well advertized as its successes. The slow change you mention is a result of the decision making process in place. And the example of Japan suggests that the road ahead won't be as easy and that this world rewards nimble players.I also think the entire equation is off. Comapartive advantage in economics shows that we shouldn't look at these issues as a zero sum games: China up = US down. It's possible for both players to benefit. The real loss isn't in properity as much as the power of monopoly. Some find it unsettling to to have to consider the interests of other countries.
Yeh, like Bush
Bakesale1
Today on the radio I heard that China's one child policy has bigger ramifications..
Parents have been aborting females to raise sons.. By most estimates in 15 years China will be 30 millon single females short. Comments about disruption to Chineese society were made.. (might increase the respect China has for females IMHO)
I heard that a similar trend is taking place in America with the lower virility of males sperm more girls are being born and since females don't expose themselves to the same risks that males do America will have a potential shortage of Males by several percent..
Frenchy,
Too many women in the United States and too few women in China...it seems like a natural solution that the two countries unite and restore the balance of nature through inter-marriage. JL
jeanlou,
The issue is height!
American women will tolerate many things but seldom do I ever see a taller woman with a shorter man.
I don't feel race is as big an issue as height is.. (IMHO)
Now if all taller Chineese men were sent to America in search of their wives,...<G>
Plus a fair number of Chineese American women might welcome Chineese husbands,..
Once the North American hormone rich McDonald's diet does it's stuff, the Chinese will be as tall and as overweight as their North American counterparts...it will all level out in the end. They already have McD in China so they have a head start. JL
jeanlou,
You forget that meat is way up on the food chain,,
only in food rich America is meat cheap. IN China it is highly unlikely that the next 15 years will produce the kind of tall stature common in America..
Sure south America has modest meat prices right now, simply because they are slash burning off the forests, but after a few years they have to move on, at some point all that slash burning will bite them and meat will once again be priced at North American prices..
Frenchy & Jeanlou,I suspect that you are busy exchanging some misconceptions. If I am not mistaken: Argentina produces more beef than any other country on earth and it did not achieve that status by burning jungle. South America exports most of its beef; it is not consumed so much locally. Height has nothing to do with meat consumption. Both the tallest and shortest people hail from Africa where humans have dwelt for the longest time and been nourished in variable ways. Chinese people are not all that short. Don't confuse them with Japanese who generally are as are native Central Americans. Men are less afraid of taller women than previously. Consider Tom Cruise, for instance.The real problem in China may be what to do to pacify all that testerone which may have no pacification due to an extreme shortage of the opposite sex. Look out, Ladies! Castration was the solution when the ruling class had harems. What will we do that is still civilized?Food for thought.Cadiddlehopper
cadiddlehopper,
If you look Brazil is quickly approaching Argentian's beef production (last numbers I saw were 4 or 5 years ago) they could do it because the forest land when slashed and burned doesn't lend itself to crop production but does lend itself to beef production (at least for a while)
It was little more than 30 years ago that 30 million (some claim 50 million) chineese starved to death due the the failure of the great leap forward. That lack of malnutrition reduced the height of the average Chineese. Only recently has sufficent food been available.. That little tidbit I viewed on one of those Chineese sponsered "news" shows, and only once while most of the others I've seen repeatedly.. It actaully wasn't said that way, they simply compared the diets of late 60's with currant diets in calories. I deduced the above "factoid"
While men seem capable of dealing with taller women, women who must consider various factors such as the height of their offspring tend to reject men who are shorter than themselves.. (exceptions being young starlets who see tremendous economic possiblities with major stars of short stature, Paul Newman also had no shortage of available women willing, indeed eager to bed him.. Nor did Steve Mc Queen or most other vertically challenged men..
Knots forum for president!
Well, we'all seem to know everything about everything ; also many are "not afraid to take a stand" as the saying goes. (Custer took a stand and many still admire his flowing yellow hair).
As to the behaviour and instincts of we, The Testosterone Bunch - try Steve Jones "Y - The Descent of Men" for some enlightening facts about population control, marriage preferences, child rearing (or rather, the opposite) and other male-doings around the globe. You will be fascinated, shocked, horrified and perhaps inclined to sit down quietly for a bit. I know I was.
Lataxe, red-facedly male and definitely unqualified to be president; or anything really.
PS New Zealand produces some very high quality tools (or is it Rhodesia) although it is A Long Way Away.
Please recall my disclaimer: if I am not mistaken.Indeed, slashing/burning is a concern. It is not the only basis for high beef production. Your own statements indicate that malnutrition, not absence of meat from the diet, causes reduced height. Long term, the major cause is probably mate selection which you also recognize. Responsibility is shifted to the female, however, rather than the male.The point is that the causes of certain outcomes are complicated beyond the simplifications mentioned in these posts. We would probably do our fellow posters a favor by avoiding political, sociological, and other soft science discussions in these posts and restricting our output to woodworking chatter.Apologetically,Cadiddlehopper
cadiddlehopper,
Ahhh the soft science of knots,, frankly we need to agree to disagree with regard to such discussions.. who knows what little tidbit might spark an interest in something to do with wood working..
In this discussion we've got from Chineese made tools to deforsetation issues in the rain forest.. all of them in one way or the other have to do with woodworking..
Sure there's been a bunch of social and sometimes political spin on stuff but here we are talking about rain forests and the population of China.
Frenchy,
Ever since the Mad Cow incident, beef has become very expensive in Quebec...probably all of Canada. McDonald's must be serving American beef to keep the prices at their usual level.
It is not only the food markets that will be hit by the uncontrolled and inappropriate forestry practices that still prevail all over the world, and North America. Homes framed in steel studs are already less expensive than stick built homes, because old growth wood is not as plentiful as it used to be, and much of the second and third growth wood that is being harvested today is not suitable for the production of quality solid wood construction materials. The industry is adapting accordingly and producing other building materials with this wood.
I think that the future generations will be living in a world that I would find difficult to recognize. I am happy that there is still enough quality solid wood available so that I can continue working with it during my lifetime, because it gives me enormous satisfaction to be a wood worker. JL
jeanlou,
I accept that the world of tomorrow will bring about massive changes that I won't recongnize.. Heck I grew up reading Dick Tracy comic books and today that wrist radio of his is a fact! It's called a cell phone and they come that size!
America has 100 million more people then when I was a kid growing up, last year the world gained 70 million more inhabitants.. in spite of wars, disease , Tsunamis and other disasters.. Maybe one family, one child isn't such a bad concept after all?
I built my house as a double timberframe.. Durable sure but in the future those big timbers will be held in awe by future generations.
On a slightly more pragmatic point.. I have a fair amount of old growth timbers in my home.. Sure they aren't the 5000 year old monsters of the west coast, but white oak seldom lives much over 200 years without developing interior cancer.. Some of the timbers in my home were growing When America declared her independence. They were suistanably removed from a farmers wooded lot and that had never been harvested previously due to the difficulty in harvesting them on steep hills.. If today you drove past that woodlot you won't notice their absence. Since that is a fairly similar repliction to what occurs naturally the trees in that woodlot will continue to grow, "old Growth" trees.
Minnesota Today has nearly three times the number of large mature trees that she had when I was growing up.. much of the hardwood forest is still wildly diverse and has many species of wood growing in it..
While the softwoods may be down to 2% of their original old growth, that's not all bad.. Frankly that makes those other 5000 year old Forests that much more valuable and less likely to yield to clear cut harvest techniques.
Any tree has a life span, it may be 30 or 40 years as some trees have or 5000 years as others, when full maturity is reached that tree should be harvested (in a sustainable way) and it's value realised..
You are correct, steel studs, SIP's ICF's and other new home construction techniques will replace the doug fir stud in the future, to a degree it already has,, seldom are floor joists solid wood anymore, they are made from quickly growing, plantation grown trees that are harvested for their chips rather than for their boards.. Made into gluelams or TGI's small weak trees are a source for big long joists or or timbers..
However I suspect that hardwoods will remain viable for a long time to come, all those trees growing in the suburbs will eventually yield to age or nature and will be harvested.. Currantly they are usuallyused primarily as land fill but not far in the future someone will figure out method to extract them affordably and they too will come on stream as a wood fiber source..
Frenchy,
What has been going on for a while, and is happening more and more, is the pirating of valuable hardwoods from private suburban property. I have read about a white oak (interesting that you mentioned that species) worth about $10,000.00 harvested while the homeowners were on vacation and several American black walnut trees that were stolen from someone else. I have an old sugar maple that is very tall and very large. More than 24 feet of it is clear of any branches. I would be devastated if someone came and stole it. I look at it and sometimes have fantasies about all the amazing lumber and veneer that it would offer up if I took it down, which I never will. JL
jeanlou, I can't understand that!
I mean I can go to my sawmill and buy all the black walnut I want for less than $1.50 a bd.ft. White oak is $.80 a bd.ft. At that price I can stand at the tail of the rollers and select which boards I want.. If I want only flawless 22 inch wide ones that's what I'll have at the end of the day..
Why in gods name risk years in jail for a few hundred dollars?
Sure the retail price may be that high but if you buy at the sawmill my prices are typical..
I have 50,000 bd.ft. of hardwoods like black walnut or white oak My home and I don't think I've spent over $20,000 for it.. That includes 917 bd.ft. of burl, plus over 1200 bd.ft. of fiddleback maple.
Frnchy,
The money is not in the solid lumber, it is in the architectural veneers that can be cut from the log. JL
jeanlou,
veneers would never be taken from a yard tree! To many chances of nails or fences, hammock hooks or clothes lines or whatever in them..
The blades used to slice veneers is extremely expensive and carefully protected..
Frenchy, there is more chance for trees coming from the wilds to have nails in them, and bullets and buckshot and more. The tree huggers, God love them, regularly spike the choice trees in areas ear-marked for harvest in order to protest the cutting of these trees. JL
Case in point, I recently rough dimensioned some kiln dried walnut that had been used for target practice (fortunately lead shot and not steel). I thought it seemed a little heavy for walnut!
pzaxtl,
It's not uncommon to find lead in walnut. Usually #4- #6, or .22cal, as that is what squirrel hunters tend to favor.
Ray
pzaxtl,
Good thing they sell it by the board foot and not by the pound! I hope that it didn't spoil the project you were working on. It would be a bummer to see the lead shot when you had already machined and were ready for or even into the assembly process. JL
jeanlou,
I don't think the lead shot will ruin the project, but I'm not sure yet -- I've only rough dimensioned it, waiting for it to fully stabilize, and for time to finish. I'll know more when I take it down to its finished dimensions. The parts in question are apron pieces for a table, so, worst case scenario, I'll either flip the board over and hide the damage on the inside, or I will mill a new piece.
Michael
Too bad Michael, but finding damaged or contaminated (by foreign objects, sap pockets mineral stain and so on) wood after the milling process is one of the risks woodworkers run all the time. It becomes more difficult to manage when the lumber we use is chosen for colour and grain pattern. JL
jeanlou,
The sawmill I buy from mills 2 million bd.ft. a year..They do hit spikes and other metal on occasion but usually from a fence or something driven into a tree near a farm etc. That's part of the milling process. When there was a lot of clear cutting going on an occasion spiking would happen but since sustainable harvesting has become the norm in the last two decades they don't know of any deliberate spiking going on..
Not to say it doesn't but Since Sawmills used to be a significant part of my income I would be aware of it if it were a common problem.. It recieved far more press thanit's relative rareity would indicate.. Maybe in part because the big lumber companies made certain the press heard the story..
I know a few radical tree huggers, People who protest anything at the drop of a hat.. It's a practice none of them condone.. When a sawblade hits a big railroad spike teeth are shelled out and become shrapnel and people can be hurt.. Tree huggers aren't into hurting people.. Most tree huggers accept that trees are a crop and should be harvested when mature.. For the past two decades the forest industry has carefully gotten that message out to those concerned about the eviornment.
I do know of hunters who fearing the loss of good hunting grounds might do such a thing, (darn few though) They may try to blame it on environmentalists. Rather than simply saying, hey leave the dear herds alone or some such..
By the way most nails, even big "spikes" when hit with a sawblade are simply cut off and the sawblade dulled slightly. Frequent sharpening is the norm at sawmills so it's not really an issue except for veneer logs. That's why they are so careful about where they come from. I know of no veneer mill that will accept a tree off out of someones trailer. Since they are extremely worried about damage to those cutters I just don't see them accepting a yard tree from anyone.
Frenchy,
The veneer mills I have been to can not hit metal when slicing a log. First they remove all the bark, then they check for metal with very sensitive metal detectors, and remove whatever they can if they find any. The log is then steamed and sliced up stopping just before the piece of metal that they could not remove earlier. At his point, if it pays, they will remove the new found metal and continue slicing more veneers. They do not hit the blades with any metal because the production downtime is too expensive (never mind the cost of the knives).
As far as not taking a yard tree, yards must be different where you come from. The 10,000$ white oak that you went semi-ballistic about :-) was an incredible specimen, and you can be sure that no one hung their hammock on it nor did they line up squirrels in front of it for execution by firing squad. If a veneer mill owner had a tree like that offered to him, and he was in the least bit larcenous, there would be a whole lot of white oak flat sliced and rift cut veneer flitches on the mill floor, in as soon as the process will allow. If Frenchy was running the mill, he would say, ''get that overgrown yard stick off my property before I call the cops''. :-) JL
jeanlou,
I'd guess that I've visited well over 5000 sawmills, several of them were veneer mills, that is they specilized in veneering..
used for either for plywood, or furniture. They were all extremely critical of every log and rejected a fair number of logs they bought and paid veneer prices for rather than risk their equipment..
Not that they'd toss the logs, if a large enough signal was returned they'd go digging for metal as one mill owner said.. a relatively weak signal and they' go right ahead and let the blade hit it, Like I said mills sharpen frequently anyway!
To be fair most of them would use the circular saw for just that reason,, those big 54 inch blades can slice right thru nails etc.. where a bandsaw blade might get some real damage..
I can't see a sawmill paying $10,000 for any white oak log.. stumpage prices are under 20 cents a bd.ft. for white oak and trust me we have some monsters here..Old growth stuff that is well over the normal 200 years that most white oaks live to before rotting from the inside begins..
Sure the really great logs are sold to veneer mills but they don't pay those sort of prices for veneer grade black walnut logs or even cherry!
I've got several 12x12 inch timbers that were 1/4 of a tree.
Frenchy,
Enough about logs...let's talk about building something. :-)
Enjoy your next project. JL
jeanlou,
My next project is my currant project..
I don't know if I belong here or over at breaktime!
I mean I am building a double timberframe out of hardwoods like Black walnut and white oak.. Everything from giant timbers to the smallest finishing detail..
Over at breaktime it's all about studs and plywood etc, while here the pieces normally used are tiny compared to a 22 foot long 12x12 timber..
Instead of putting a bunch of premilled pieces together I go from drying to planing to sanding and shaping etc..
I don't know who to ask about milling 20 foot long boards to put down for finished flooring.. Who has a 24 foot long fence for their tablesaw?
How can I discuss what problems occur when planning 4 or 5000 bd.ft. of wood at a time?
Someone keeps asking about their shellac getting stale? I use ten gallons of shellac at a time often! Stale? In the few minutes that it takes to spray it or brush on?
I haul off scraps of hardwoods by the pickup load,, four or five feet of 6x9 black walnut or cherry are tossed away simply because I don't have the space to store them..
I use a 6 inch wide power plane or a little three inch wide Lie Neilsen on the same task..
I go from great big timberframing tools to delicate finishing tools..
I guess that's the price I'll have to pay for being differant!
Sounds like fun, to me!!!
Well then Frenchy, you understand that all this comes together. Working big and working small is related and requires the same problem solving skills and thinking-out-of- the-box approach to getting it right. Jigs and guides are still hand made and the very same rules of straight and square and level apply. I see that you are using those magic materials again, walnut and white oak. :-) In french we refer to these woods as "noble" materials. (this is an English translation), and noble they are. Is the building for you or a client? Enjoy the project JL
jeanlou,
My family home.
(and thank you for your reponses)
jeanlou,
lead in a tree is nothing!
doesn't even dull blades,, just leaves a shiney spot!
Frenchy,
I don't like shiny spots in my French polished furniture projects. I want the finish even throughout, with only the wood showing...unleaded, kind of like today's gasoline. (maybe yesterday's - todays is mixed with ethanol) JL
"I can't understand that!
I mean I can go to my sawmill and buy all the black walnut I want for less than $1.50 a bd.ft. White oak is $.80 a bd.ft. At that price I can stand at the tail of the rollers and select which boards I want.. If I want only flawless 22 inch wide ones that's what I'll have at the end of the day..
Why in gods name risk years in jail for a few hundred dollars?"
The thing here is you're smarter than the average criminal so you don't think the same way... ;-) Remember, they're the same guys who get electrocuted when they try to steal the copper wire out of electrical substations.
Stuart (and Frenchy)
Quebec is a predominantly Catholic province with MANY churches. Recently thieves discovered that the copper roofing material could also be stolen from these churches and that they could be paid very well at the local scrap yards for their booty. No risk of electrocution there...but the roof can be mighty slippery on a wet or snowy day. I wonder what they will tell St. Peter when their turn comes up. JL
Go figure Frenchy. You must have a great lumber source. JL
Edited 1/17/2007 9:24 pm ET by jeanlou
"Once the North American hormone rich McDonald's diet does it's stuff, the Chinese will be as tall and as overweight as their North American counterparts...it will all level out in the end. They already have McD in China so they have a head start. JL"
I spent most of 1992 in Taiwan on a work assignment - it wasn't uncommon to see a family walking down the street where the teenage son (or daughter) was a good six or eight inches taller than either of the parents. And yes, the local McDonald's and KFC restaurants were always jammed.
The purchase of Rockfeller Center by Mitsubishi Estate was particularly interesting. They bought it in two parts, the majority interest first--at one peak of the real estate market in NYC and then bought the remaining interest at a subsequent peak. They then took it into bankruptcy as the market was nearing bottom and was set to turn around. The American group that purchased Rockefeller Center Properties out of the bankruptcy included the Rockefeller family. They revamped the management and I would bet are doing quite well with the property. But, if the Mitsubishi owners had ridden through the downturn they would have almost certainly made a little money instead of losing their equity in the property. Their timing was about 180° wrong in every case. Buying NYC real estate when the Rockefellers were selling, and vice versa was not the way to make money.
Frenchy,
I agree with some of what you said, particularly the historical data. However, there are a few things to consider when it comes to China. One is the progress they have made in terms of modernization -- it is astounding. China has come further in a shorter period of time than any modern industrialized nation. It took the United States about 150 years (post Civil War to WWI we were strictly isolationist) to get to where we are. China is close on our heels and they've done it in about 20. If we think for a minute that China would not tank us economically if they could then we are just plain naive. Isn't this the same nation that 10 years ago ran down its own citizens with tanks at Tianemen Square? Oh, but wait, they've changed, right? No, they're just playing a very smart game and dopey us, we're playing along.
I do not agree that China has only fought wars to defend their borders. In both Korea and Vietnam, China was a major party to the conflict, and they were engaged to defend/spread their ideology (in fact, in Korea, we were often fighting Chinese nationals directly). In neither instance was China's border threatened, but the logistical support they provided in both weaponry and manpower was huge.
Also, China does not need to attack the United States on its own soil to drain us militarily and economically. In fact, a better strategy for them would be to threaten our interests/obligations away from home -- that way we have the logistical and financial nightmare of supplying our forces from thousands of miles away. Hint: think Taiwan! Now, if they've already made great inroads into our economy and established a dependency relationship that makes it even easier.
The value of China's currency (the Yuan) vs. the dollar is another economic/political tool that they are making good use of. It is widely decried by economists as a staggering inequality. They are purposely undervaluing their currency to maintain the flow of goods into the United States. Regardless of the political pressure we apply, they will not raise the value of their currency. What that means to you and I is that we are paying for their development. In the final analysis, should the U.S. go the way of all nations (decline) and China rises to super power status, (which I think is certain) we will have paid for that as well!
For all those that lament the poor that go unfed and unclothed, I have to wonder what they are doing about it (and yes, I do). The truth is, the world produces enough food to feed everybody on the planet (and then some); that's not my opinion -- that's the result of a U.N. study. Every day in the U.S. restaurants throw away enough food to make a significant impact on world hunger. Why? -- because the health department says they have to, and because we are so used to super abundance that wastefulness no longer matters to us.
Globalization sounds good, and in a genuinely good world it would be, but until the fundamental flaws in human nature (such as greed, ambition and selfishness) are resolved I believe it is a recipe for disaster.
Other than that, my outlook on our future is quite rosy :-)
Michael
Edited 1/7/2007 3:44 am ET by pzaxtl
Edited 1/7/2007 12:54 pm ET by pzaxtl
Michael
Another country that China has ''annexed'' is Tibet, and they have no intention of ever leaving, this comment based on the infrastructure that they are building presently. Right now China is both a consumer of raw materials (and at a tremendous level) and also a supplier of finished goods (at a tremendous level). They are aggressively expanding their holdings throughout the world, the majority designed to give them even more control over the supply of raw materials, and they are aggressively expanding and improving their manufacturing abilities, so that they fulfil the needs of their clients.
I think at this point it is a moot point whether we are to consider them a world power or not, because they have us by the economic shorthairs.
I am not being fascicious when I say that if your kids are asking what language to learn in school, here is the order as I see it in the USA...English first, Spanish second and then Chinese (Mandarin dialect is preferable for business)
In Canada it is English then French and then Chinese, unless you live in Quebec, and then it is French then Chinese and then English. (now that is a political in joke - I couldn't help myself because the devil made me do it) JL
JL,
You said what I tried to say, but better!
You know, my wife and I occassionally go to Montreal and when we do, I seriously regret not paying attention in French class in high school :-( Of course, I didn't pay attention in English, either -- or Math, or Science, or... .
Michael
...as long as you pay attention when you are working with your tools, and when your wife talks to you, it is OK. :-) JL
I thought in Quebec it was french, french and then french, in that order!!!!
Actually it is FRENCH FRENCH and then more FRENCH, and then Mandarin, and then, if there is any time left, a wee bit of English. :-) JL
Thats okay, out here its english, english, cantonese. Southern Tachone, and then maybe some french!! But you can order french fries just as easy as you can order chips! now thats culture!
Yes sir.
We have the good fortune to live in a multi-cultural society, where I bet you could even find poutine, that famous Quebecois artery clogger, in the Yukon. (french fries, curd cheese and gravy) JL
It's no problem to find here. I tried it, once, there must be something I missed. But then I don't put gravy on fries. Isn't it supposed to be ketchup?
It is when you are eating fries on their own...but when you are eating the national food of Quebec, poutine, then it is a very specific recipe. Imagine fries, curd cheese and gravy. There is nothing closer to direct intravenous intake of fats and cholesterol.
To eat a poutine with ketchup would be a travesty. I like ketchup with my fries, so I don't eat poutine. My wife says I shouldn't even eat the fries...but I do occasionally because I like them.
JL
Ya gotto have some fries once in a while!
That's what I tell my wife!
pzaxtl.
It's a very good thing for America that China has come so far so fast. As an impovished third world country she stood to lose nothing in the event of war.. Today she owns a great deal outside of her borders.. that makes it less likely to attack America Why blow up a seven 11 she owns? right? Yes, I know that she owns much more than seven 11's .<G> All those new building and dams would be at risk if she started a war.. can you think of any way we wouldn't attack the three gorges dam in the event of war?
Nah it's in America's interest that China does well.. (the rich seldom start fist fights)
Economic war? Absolutely we've been at war for a while now.. We can't afford military adventures like Iraq or wasting money buying more and more obsolete weapons systems.. We need to do exactly as China is doing, invest in our infrastructure..
There's big paybacks in that!
Take our old freeway system, 60 years old and showing it's age.. traffic in most cities wastes massive amounts of fuel and manpower.. 2 hour commutes are not uncommon, an hour in the morning and an hour in the evening crawling through traffic is a poor use of manpower..
Eliminate the traffic and the productivity gains and fuel savings would pay for the changes in a few years.
Heck every spring some river or another floods. Take the Red river of the North for an example.. It's done billions of dollars of damage lately. yet much of our southwest is parched waste land.. Add damage done by the Mississippi and other rivers and we've got decades of tunnel boring we can do..
Get s few tunnel boring machines and put them to work diverting flood waters to the southwest and that could be paid for in just a few years..
Run the tunnels under freeways so there isn't a issue about territory and only drain off water at flood stage so there isn't an issue of stealing resources..
Our air traffic control system is understaffed and resources are stretched past the breaking point.. we need new runways at most airports and most cites need their public transportation system massively increased or overhauled completely..
Our schools should not be a political football. Improve them! Make it possible for every kid in America to get a college education without a student loan debt.. College grads earn twice what high school grads earn and the debt will be paid back simply because they pay more taxes!
One third of our health care budget is spent on administrative costs. Yet the government manages to send out social security checks and earnings statements to those entittled to them for only 2%. IF there were a national health care system 1/3 more money could go towards healthcare, or god forbid reduce healthcare costs..
All of that is gonna cost tax dollars..
If we choose to spend our money on obsolete military hardware and a war on drugs that doesn't work, China will catch up to us and pass us..
We are going to change.. Either we change because we want to and select the way we change or history will change us and we won't control it..
Lataxe:Well, I have been over-educated and will prevaricate forever about the proverbial angels and how many can dance on the head of a pin - it's a variable number depending on....[curtailed by the Taunton anti-bore police].
--------------------------------------
I know how many angels can fit on the head of a pin --- all of them for they are spirits and have no mass ;-)Cheers,Joe
Joe,
Ah, you propose that them angels are a variety of electro-magnetic radiation perhaps? (No mass but they express an energy, namely the dancing). It must be a question, then, of how much energy they generate when doing their jigs and pas-de-deux upon the pin head. At some point the pin will melt and the angels will have to flit off elsewhere.
Before they go, let's ask them whether it's OK to buy pins and other stuff from the Chinese, Germans or Canadians (all foreigners you know). Better include the British as well, I suppose.
Are the angels all Americans; or do one or two hail from overseas? I always thought they were British and just like our dear queen, when she was a princess.
Lataxe, a foreign devil
Lataxe and Joe
I married an angel, but there is no way that she will fit on the head of a pin...what are you guys talking about? JL
PS I asked her if it is OK to buy stuff from foreign devils, and she said I could if I wanted to but not to put her name on the contract. Now my dilemma is determining who the devils are. It is, after all, a point of view. From where I live it is all you guys. From where you live we are the devils. Now it starts to get confusing.
Cajun.
Don't Catholic angels have mass, at least on Sundays?
Ray
10saw,
Let me butt in here please and comment on a couple of the comments that you made; a man does not need formal education to be intelligent, intelligence is separate from education. The outgoing premier of Canada's richest province (Alberta) never finished high school, but still managed to become leader of his political party and leader of the province for several mandates. With your college credits you have more formal education than he does, so I guess that makes you smarter.
Happy New Year from one guy that works with his hands to another.
"The outgoing premier of Canada's richest province (Alberta) never finished high school, but still managed to become leader of his political party and leader of the province for several mandates. "I'm not suprized you can go that far with little education in Canada. Here in the USA we have higher standards. Yale graduates! Take President Bush for instance..............Oh........never mind....(sorry I couldn't resist!)10sawBTW
Thanks for the encouraging words!
10saw
Out of respect for the American people I will not make any comments on American political leaders. I will however comment on policy now and then whenever I get an opportunity to do so. Most of the time with a little tongue in cheek, other times... Anyway, there are enough underqualified and overpaid political types in Canada. I don't need to go south of the Canadian US border if I want to find some politicians to bad mouth. We even have enough to export if you all need some more. JL
Edited 1/5/2007 1:46 am ET by jeanlou
jeanlou,
You can say pretty much what ever you want about our political leaders. I doubt you'll come up with anything that we haven't already said, unless of course it's compliments.
Jack
JLMcDaniel
Politics is one of those places where I chose to tread with a relatively light foot. This applies to both Canada and the USA for me...but thanks for the invitation . It wouldn't be hard to flame a few, like the senator who said (re Canadian water) If they won't give it us we will just go up there and take it.
It gave me such a warm and cuddly feeling to know I was safe in my own home. JL
Yeah, "54 40 or fight," right? Polk wimped out. Maybe Polk's heir can take up the gaunlet and use military force to get what his forefather let slip through his hands? On to Bagdad, ooops, I mean Vancouver. I think Vancounver may have WMDs; I mean if there's even a 1% chance, we have to treat it as a certainty, right.
sAMSON,
Let's not start a war with Canada, if this country keeps going the way it is we'll need a friendly place to move to.
Jack
I think the worm is turning. We're gonna get this country back on track. It's beginning.
By the way, we share the same birthday - 10/03.
Jack,
As far as I am concerned, all American are welcome to live in Canada. The more bodies that move up here, the warmer it will be in the dead of winter. :-) JL
JL, unfortunately, I think climate change is now inevitable, so hold tight, the populations of Miami, Los Angeles, and NYC, may be migrating your way soon to get a little closer to the pole.
Now you are really getting me worried Samson. If all those Americans move closer to the pole, then Canada won't have a hope in Hell to keep the US from extending the Alaskan territorial waters into our own. There goes the neighborhood. :-) jl
Let's not get it to crowded up there, besides with global warming you'll be growing palm trees in no time.
I live on 120acres and with the latest building boom I'm starting to feel crowded in. I could use some wide open country.
Jack
Jack,
You are a blessed man and I am sure you know it. Enjoy the space. I am not so sure that your great grand children will have the same priviledge. JL
Samson
Shades of the war of 1812....anyway I wasn't around then. Sure; why not take Canada and incorporate it into the sovereign territory of the USA? After all, there are only about 35 million of us up here in the uncivilized north. That is about the population of New York City, Miami and Los Angeles combined. In fact you all have already started the process by claiming Arctic waters as US territorial waters because we (Canada) doesn't have enough of a presence up there...so what the hey. Somebody on another forum wrote something like, if I want it then it belongs to me. This seems to work.
By the way, if you all want to move up to Canada you are welcome anytime. But do keep in mind that in a while it will become the United States anyway and you will have moved for nothing, unless of course you love our weather so much that you cannot stay away. JL
One thing's for sure Samson,
There is a great deal of very nice cedar and Douglas fir in British Columbia...but it rains and rains and rains...I think you get the picture. That why I live in Quebec, where it snows and snows and snows, but at least you can ski on it when you aren't pushing it around with a shovel. JL
Jean-Louis, I grew up in upstate NY where lake effect snow off Lake Ontario made sure we got plenty of snow and snow and snow. I too enjoyed skiing on it (as a kid downhill, now more cross country when I get the chance); but the shoveling - not so much.
Samson,
I own more shovels than chisels...almost. I have the one with the extra long extension handle to deal with the roof overhang, I have the standard push type scraper, I have the new ergonomic type scraper that has the curly-que handle that supposedly makes it easier to lift the stuff, I have the one that also chops ice and I have the one that...if global warming cintinues I may have to then up for sale cheap, because it raining here today and the snow is melting. JL
That why I live in Quebec, where it snows and snows and snows, but at least you can ski on it when you aren't pushing it around with a shovel.
Not this year! In fact, if the weather keeps going the way it is, I'll be planting palm trees around my pool (yippee!). I live in upstate NY, in the heart of the Adirondack mountains. The town I live in has always been in the top 10 places that most frequently records the coldest temperature in the nation. But not this year!
By now, we should have about 3 ft of snow on the ground; we should, by now, have had several below zero (fahrenheit) days -- some as cold as -30 to -40. But not this year!
Later, if the rain stops, I may go out and cut the grass!
pzaxtl,
I cut my grass at the end of Nov this past year, something that I was never able to do before because it was always buried under snow. I don't know about palm trees just yet, but I am definitely worried about our Quebec winter carnaval this year. It is also raining here as we speak, melting the white stuff in my yard. JL
Edited 1/6/2007 2:43 pm ET by jeanlou
To all off you that think this global bit is good I wish you luck. But when you are faced with issues like the fact (recent study I can find the source if you want) that half the population in the world is worth less then $2000 dollars, it is hard to argue that free trade is a good idea. You can not compete against that unless you are willing to lower yourself to their level. Never in the history of the world has their been open and free trade between countries that had such a large gap in the level of and standard of living. WE are conducting an experiment that can not be proven by past history and can not be proven to work by mathematics. So why people think this is a good idea I don't understand. Because we can buy cheep widgets? Well after all the low paying jobs are shipped elsewhere then the rest of us will have to watch out because our jobs will not be worth as much either because the guy on the bottom will be willing to take less.
If you think that we will live to see the rest of the world raised to the levels of North America and Europe you are dreaming. Like water finding its own level this will balance out but it will not help the average American or European for a long long time.
And lets not forget that while we send all the manufacturing over seas it will make it a bit hard to protect ourselves. Or are we also dreaming that we have seen the last war? I know that according to the believes of the US we would never get in a war at all so why worry (after the Revolution) Then after 1812 we would not have another issue and again after the Civil war and again after WWI (the war to end all wars) And after WWII we would not need conventional arms as Nukes made it pointless to fight with Conventional Weapons. So their are down sides to everything and while I understand the idea of keeping things cheep fact is that before free trade we had relatively inexpensive TVs and stereos so we did not need to do this to make things cheaper. Now before free trade we did not have the owners of Wallmart making as much off the cheep products they sold but I could live with that.
IF you want to tell me that free trade is better then please show me how anyone making under say 50 grand a year has been helped. I am willing to bet you that most people in that area are in a shrinking job market and that they have seen their benefits get worse and their working conditions get worse and have not seen a decent pay raise in a long time. I am also willing to bet that a lot of the people saying that free trade is a good idea are making a LOT more then that. And I don't understand the comment about saving half the money they make in a year. First off If I did not buy a single thing and did not eat I could not save half of what I make in a year as the taxes and the cost of keeping a roof over my head and heat in the house and gas to drive to the job would cost me more then half. So if you think that saving half of what they make is a good thing and if we as Americans cant seam to do this then how is it that lowering the working wages of some many people is going to help us save more? I don't understand the point you are trying to make.
And as for helping out our brother craftsman in another countries, can someone please explain to me when we started thinking that we need to help people living in other counties more then we need to help those living in our country? I would say that is someone in Mexico needs a better Job it is the problem of Mexico and not the US or Canada or England to do things to make that happen. For some reason the people in this country and the politicians seam to think that we need to help the rest of the world. Funny thing is I thought we had a government to help us. So should not their government help them?
IF the US did not have poverty I may feel differently but look around you and you will see that their are a lot of people in the US (and I would assume in other counties also) that are living in very poor conditions. This could be the inner city areas like Detroit or the poor areas of West Virginia but even where I live (in an area where new house start at 300K and a subdivision of million dollar homes is not uncommon, we have poor people that could not buy their kids cloths much less the new Ipods.
So why is it that so many people want to help out the rest of the world and leave their own people to suffer. Don't get me wrong Oppras school was a nice idea but what would that 40 Million (or what ever it was) have done in Detroit of New Orleans. It is funny but we (in the US) are always accused by people of being only in it for ourselves but we seam to be doing and sending a lot to other lands when we have our own poor at home. I don't know if this is true of other country but we in the US have a lot of things we need to fix here and we better start soon and let the rest of the world help themselves. This sounds mean but the reality is if you can not put shoes on all your own family buying shoes for the neighbors is just nuts. And if China is able to build so much this is not a surprise with the money they are making off us and the fact that they just take any design the like and to hell with the company that created it I would expect that they are building more then we are.
Doug Meyer
Doug,
I am glad to see that you have travelled the world and gathered all these facts for us about them dangerous foreigners. So good to see an in depth analysis based on hard facts and good honest paranoia.
Just one thing....what should we all do, to avoid the doom? Should I build the shelter now? I have woodworking skills.
Lataxe, watching the skies.
Hang on....isn't this forum supposed to be about woodworking? Perhaps a thread on "the best furniture for shelters"......
Lataxe-I'm glad you were able to get all the way to the end and to pick out the kernel of the argument. I will rely on you as my interpreter if there is further exposition.Don, still on page 270 of "Wealth of Nations."
You know I started to respond to your email with specifics but at this point I decided that their is no point. All I will say is that I did NOT start this thread so if you don't like what it is about either don't read it or take it up with someone else (not the last guy to post in it) And I love how you claim I know nothing about anything because I said things you disagree with and did not state where/what they are based on. Yet you don't make any factual comments of your own.
You want to aim cheep shots at me because I disagree with your beliefs. Go ahead. But if you want to say I am wrong then I suggest you show me where and not just point to my email and say I am paranoid.
Oh and out of pure curiosity how do you know that I did not gather this info? Or that I don't have it available? You don't. You just have your opinion of what is right and because I disagree with it then I MUST be wrong.
I would say have a nice day but you may decide that I am stating facts I don't have.
Doug Meyer
Doug & Lataxe,The rants & put-downs have been quite eloquent. Skepticism could put both your ideas in perspective. For instance: Doesn't it seem that the Tooth Fairy works better than Adam Smith's Invisible Hand? As far as lessons from history: How can we possibly know what History teaches? For instance: The Allies didn't follow N. Chamberlain's plan for dealing with Hitler. How can we be sure that he was wrong? The idea that Free Trade promotes peace has little or no support from the historical record. Trade has been a source of conflict since time immemorial. Yet our Leaders spout that favorable view constantly. Then there is the idea so prevalent for most of my life that Socialists & Communists are bad but Democrats & Republicans (especially Republicans) are good. Aren't there some bad guys in each classification? As for China: They seem to be putting Lenin's plan for the Russian economy into action. The Russians didn't do that. It seems to be working for China today. It seemed to work during FDRs administration in the US, by the way. I could go on. Life, politics, economics -- it all seems a Great Experiment. It is too bad that prosperity & pragmatism can't seem to catch up with population.Cadiddlehopper
It is amazing how many people take a superior attitude around here. And if that beginning was not condescending then I don't know what it was.
The point was and is that Just because you or anyone else thinks that free trade is great that others may not. And that just because they disagree that does not make them either stupid or ill informed. The reality is that everyone has their personal background that colors how they see things and to assume that your view is the valid one and that the other guys is always wrong it to fly in the face or reality. No one is always wrong and no one is always right, and most things you will find have two sides (or more) and that both sides have a least a little bit of a valid point.
If you want to look at history and say well that does not prove anything because if we had only asked I am sure that the king of England would have allowed us to do want we wanted (or any other course not taken argument) be my guest. But how does this changes the fact that we have been in so many wars that it is hard to keep track of them and that after most of them we thought we would never be in another?So based on that it may seam logical to keep a military around as (and your argument supports my case here) you can never tell what is going to happen tomorrow. So call me paranoid if you wish (well you didn't but the post I was responding to last time did) but I think it is pure folly to say that we don't need to be able to field a military and to do that we need to be able to built it. We did not win WWII by buying everything from China. And that is at least one case for keeping a manufacturing ability in this country.
Well I will cut this short as I am sure that someone with a much more valid opinion will want to jump in here and talk down to those of us that disagree with them.
Doug Meyer
Doug,
I think you miss the point completely. Most of us on here says things tonge in cheek, then you jump in all serious with a long winded fact sheets. Lighten up, we all have enough problems without you constantly pointing them and others out to us.
Jack
"if that beginning was not condescending then I don't know what it was."Since there was no condescension in my post, I suppose you don't know what it was. Did you miss the compliment to your eloquence? Did you miss our points of agreement though expressed differently? Most points I sought to make have already been spoken by outstanding historians, economists, and philosophers. I claim no originality.I am certain that you have made yourself quite well-informed, but I detect more hostility than scholarship in the posts. Perhaps what our coumtry really needs is tranquilizers in the water supply to balance the forces.Humbly,Cadiddlehopper
Cadiddlehopper,
A most propitious post!
-nazard
Doug,
You mention that: "You know I started to respond to your email with specifics but at this point I decided that their is no point".
You are wiser than I thought. :-)
Now, I see that you are a Very Serious Chap so I will forego taking the mick again (after this time) as it has become obvious that you cannot be wrong and must be Right. You should take up politics, you know - you would fit right in.
Lataxe, a non-believer*
* Beliefs are safe if used in moderation. If you swallow more than the recommended dose, see your psychiatrist immediately. Remember, newspapers may lie as well as tell the truth, so your investment in beliefs may lose value. [Issued by the meme-regulation authorities in the interests of public safety].
Obviously the economics profession has been a failure, when one of the most clear, mathematically provable economic propositions is totally misunderstood and rejected by masses of the population, who seem stuck by the fallacy of absolute advantage and ignore the benefits of comparative advantage.
It's really quite simple. We can maintain full employment doing enough of the things that we do well. But the population as a whole becomes better off because their income buys more goods including the lower priced goods from overseas.
The problems don't stem from free trade, but paradoxically, from progress. So much of progress proceeds through creative destruction, with old ways of doing things not just easily being transformed into the new, but first being destroyed in order to be rebuilt into the new world. So it is true that there are human costs, but there would also be human costs (but not offset by the benefits of lower cost goods) if we as a nation, or if the nations of the West, were to adopt substantially closed borders. Put that way, it is easier to see that the problems of poverty can not be solved by massive reductions in trade, but must be solved as problem of growth, distribution, and redistribution. We already tried "beggar they neighbor" trade restictions. They contributed to the worldwide Great Depression.
Edited 1/6/2007 10:42 pm ET by SteveSchoene
This is David Ricardo's argument, and it has stood the the test of time.In the extreme, an entirely arteriosclerotic command economy- one that is divorced from market forces or one that tends to override developing technology- will eventually collapse, as the Soviet Union did. The US did not win the Cold War in battle, but by leaving the USSR in the dust economically.The argument has its limits, however. If you define the ultimate good as economic growth- as Ricardo and the Utilitarins tended to- "the greatest good, for the greatest number"- several problems can emerge. Some groups can be left behind and if income disparity increases to a high enough level, then social instability may result. There may be winners and losers, but it cannot be winner-take-all. Look to Bolivia, compared with Chile, for example.A second problem arises when considering economic externalities. If a country achieves a competitive economic position by, for example, massive pollution, or rapacious unsustainable development, these costs my be borne by others, particularly by generations unborn. It does not fit into the classic liberal economic model, but it is real nonetheless. America's dependence on foreign energy sources is another example. If measured at the pump, petroleum is still a price competitive energy source. But when one factors in the cost of the defense forces and infrastructure required to maintain that cheap energy lifeline, it is no longer so cheap. And if you add the diplomatic costs- noneconomic to be sure, but real nonetheless- of maintaining alliances with our "friendly" trading partners in Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, Libya, Indonesia, Nigeria, etc. it is even more problematic.In the end, the free trade argument is valid, but not quite as axiomatic as its proponents would like to believe.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
I agree. I was teaching students in the late seventies that the USSR was destined for economic failure unless massive reform occurred. This was widely and commonly understood, since ever the soviet economy required capital expenditures to grow faster than the growth rate of GDP.
I also agree that there are those who are left out of the benefits of trade (or as I termed it progress). The math only shows that the winners could compensate the losers and still come out ahead, and there are some other fairly strong assumptions that must be made, including similarity of tastes. (Pareto, etc.) It's only this argument that has and should achieve the status of axiom. But you are right the distributional issues of winners and losers must still be addressed.
The externalities are a more difficult issue. It terms of national policy, it is perhaps better for China (or China's future generations) to bear the costs of pollution in order to sell us low cost goods, but I certainly am a bit uncomfortable making that argument. In any event, however, it isn't within my compass to advocate alteration Chinese environmental policy. I'll leave that to the Chinese. I won't mess with the petroleum or diplimatic aspects--too quick into rant mode.
Hmmm... It's not often that I get people to agree with me. Are you feeling entirely well? Perhaps I am becoming too conciliatory in my dotage? <g>I concur that externalities are not easily rationalized- one way or the other. The problem with leaving, say pollution to the Chinese, is that it crosses borders and may be changing the climate of the entire planet, not just the weather in China. If such effects are profound or long lasting- it is difficult for me to ignore them on the grounds that I cannot solve them easily.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Glaucon,
In the USA and Canada we are doing a marvelous job of polluting our own territories and that of others...yes China is also doing a good job of it, but as far as pollution is concerned, including the greenhouse effect, we need to clean up our own backyards, and front yards and even our garages where we park our SUVs and Hummers and other gas guzzlers and toxin spewers. (I include myself as I drive my 6 cylinder sedan). :-( JL
Edited 1/9/2007 11:02 pm ET by jeanlou
I think one thing that most economists leave out of their equation is the human nature of the different societies. The European and, to an even greater extent, the U.S. economy made great strides through the innovation of entrepreneurial thinking once we got past the "slave" era of the industrial revolution. China’s economic growth is based on copying, much the same as Japan’s . Without the independent development and innovation these types of economies can only go so far and then they start to falter. Look at Japan over the last decade. No economy can maintain growth for the long hall without that individual who does something that can’t be done.
Free trade did not do in the old smoke stack industries in the U.S. stagnation did . The automobile industry did not fall behind because of lower wages in Japan, Taiwan, Korea, etc. it fell behind when it stopped innovating and supplying quality and refused to adapt to the current world.
We have lost a lot of our technical jobs overseas but that trend is starting to reverse, why? It’s not because we are working for less than they do in India, it’s because those types of jobs do not work without people who can think outside the box and make independent decisions . You can only provide limited technical help reading from a script, and even less if you can not fully understand the person you are working with.
As long as we keep producing entrepreneurs and the rest of the world doesn’t our economy will survive and, with occasional down turns, prosper.
Just my humble opinion.
Jack
I think you sell economists a bit short. There is a substantial literature on the importance of innovation and technological change, though much of it is in the context of development economics and particularly in economic history.
To suggest that Chinese culture doesn't encourage innovation may be a short term observation since importing technology is almost certainly more efficient that requiring independent development. But the long-erm history of technological development has a large number of "firsts" for China.
Still, China has a long way to go before it is clear that the growth path is going to be unidirectional. The history of the China in the 20th century shows so much "political" business cycles that making long term predictions is difficult. And, until the rural economy participates in the growth, I still have a concern that politics could trump economics again.
"To suggest that Chinese culture doesn't encourage innovation may be a short term observation since importing technology is almost certainly more efficient that requiring independent development."
It’s true that importing technology is more efficient but it is not sustainable. If you only import technology you will always be years behind. Any small change in world politics or relationships can leave them locked in the time that it broke down. In the long history of China, like Japan, independent thought was discouraged. Japan , which is a free country, is trying with a great deal of difficulty to create the independent workers that we have here, who can be involved with not only doing their jobs but suggesting innovations and cost savings.. I, however, can not see the leadership of China allowing let alone encouraging independent thought. It's been a long time since China's long line of firsts.
I think that if you told them "I have been duing so much with so little for so long that I am now capable of doing almost anything with nothing" they would have no idea of what you were talking about, even with 10 translators.
Jack
<"In the long history of China, like Japan, independent thought was discouraged.">This statement can only be written out ignorance, or perhaps sheer bloody-mindedness.There is no point in trying to debate such a declaration, except to note that China had 50 centuries of history before the Communist take over in 1949. It would profit you to know something about it before writing something so silly.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
You're absolutely right and I apologize. I did not mean to say that the Chinese could not think but that's how it came out. I used the wrong term, I should have said independent action. And the stifling of independent action goes back to before the Communists overthrow of China.
Jack
Edited 1/9/2007 1:12 am ET by JLMCDANIEL
Don: He is but once or twice removed, like cousins. Duke, not an internationalist
"... Buy the best and only cry once.........
Edited 1/1/2007 7:39 pm by dukeone
10,You and Lataxe are both correct unfortunately. In the civilized world we have at least removed people from the commodities market. Our labor has not yet been so blessed. Anyway, I enjoyed the rants.Cadiddlehopper
10, and Lataxe,
Had a discussion along these lines over Christmas with my wife's nephew, who is an exec with a multinational co. The ramifications and repercussions of global economics will, I think, put the "industrial" "first world" countries in an ever more interesting position in years to come. Similar, but on a larger scale, to what happened to the blacksmiths, farriers, and buggy-whip factories after the development of the automobile.
It's useless to complain about the direction we have taken, as I believe there is no turning back. The question is what the upshot of globalization will be. With US companies outsourcing their labor, and foreign companies building factories here, it seems to me that national boundaries might be becoming less and less important, that when a business like Walmart has a budget larger than many countries, the time will come when they are openly and frankly calling the shots. We could argue that this is the case nowadays, that national interests are being manipulated at the behest of business interests, and has been so since at least WWII.
Ray Pine
O.k., 10, I'll take a whack at addressing the issues you identify.Farm subsidies. Indeed, why should tax payers subsidize one element of the economy in isolation. There seems to be a school of political thought in this country (call them Republicans) that believes that welfare for corporations (most farm subsidies go to corporate farms) is good but support of individuals is bad. But beyond farms, think of all the tax-supported subsidies for other corporations. I'm with you on this one; do away with corporate welfare.Japanese rice support. I believe the barriers Japan erected to the importation of rice have been removed. Now American rice farmers in places like South Carolina, Arkansas, and Texas can profitably export rice to Japan.The quality of the good old days. What things do you have in mind that are of lesser quality than in the days of yore? Automobiles? Housing? Clothing? Food? Home entertainment? Plumb bobs? All of those are better than they were ten years ago, and they are cheaper as a fraction of average individual income. Do you think the labor that brought about that change was unskilled?Mutual support by craftspeople. What sort of support do you have in mind? Passing on knowledge, improving the efficiency of the craft, developing ways to increase value of the product, training new entrants to the craft; all of those seem to be noble goals of mutual support. But I suspect that you have in mind financial support. If that is so, please say more.Comparative rates of pay. You give only one example, and I doubt that it represents the typical pay for either craft.But if you want society (in the guise of government or whatever form you prefer) to make sure that a finish carpenter earns the same as a web page designer, then I hope you will flesh out the argument. Suppose society decreed that both should be paid $10 per hour?
"The quality of the good old days. What things do you have in mind that are of lesser quality than in the days of yore? "A short list of manufactuers and the products they maded courtesy of http://www.owwm.com Old Woodworking Machines. I'll let you figure out who made what.10saw• American Saw Mill Machinery Co.
• American Wood Working Machinery Co.
• Arcade Manufacturing Co.
• Astro Wood Planer Co., Inc.
• Atlas Press Co.
• Baldor Electric Co.
• W. F. & John Barnes Co.
• Henry L. Beach
• Beaver Tools
• Belsaw Machinery Co.
• Berlin Machine Works
• Berry & Orton Co.
• Black & Decker
• Blue Star Products
• Boice-Crane Co.
• Buffalo Forge Co.
• Burgess Vibrocrafters, Inc.
• Buss Machine Works, Inc.
• Canada Machinery Corp., Ltd. (CMC)
• Canedy-Otto Manufacturing Co.
• Chicago Machinery Exchange
• Clausing Industrial, Inc.
• Colladay Machine Works
• Combination Woodworking Machine Co.
• Comet Manufacturing Co.
• Consolidated Machinery & Supply Co., Ltd.
• Cordesman, Meyer & Co.
• Cowan & Co., Ltd.
• Craftsman
• Crescent Machine Co.
• Darra-James Corp.
• Davis & Wells
• Defiance Machine Works
• DeLoach Mill Manufacturing Co.
• Delta Manufacturing Co.
• Delta Specialty Co.
• DeWalt Products Co.
• Alexander Dodds Co.
• Daniel Doncaster
• Dremel Manufacturing Co.
• Du-er Tools
• Dunlap
• Duro Metal Products Co.
• Ekstrom, Carlson & Co.
• The Enterprise Co.
• J. A. Fay & Egan Co.
• J. A. Fay & Co.
• Foley-Belsaw Co.
• Foredom Electric Co.
• Foster Manufacturing Co.
• Foster Supplies Co.
• Fox Machine Co.
• General Electric Co.
• General Manufacturing Co., Ltd.
• Greenlee Brothers & Co.
• Gustafson & Scott Manufacturing Co.
• Hall & Brown Wood Working Machine Co.
• Hammond Machine Co.
• Hebert Manufacturing Co.
• Henry Power Tools Ltd.
• Herberts Machinery Co.
• Heston & Anderson
• Irvington
• J & H Metal Products Co.
• Jefferson Machine Tool Co.
• Jenkins Machine Co.
• Kindt-Collins Co.
• King-Seeley Corp.
• Kuster Manufacturing
• Lane Manufacturing Co.
• Master
• Mattison Machine Works
• Millbury Machine Co.
• Millers Falls Co.
• Moak Machine & Foundry Co.
• Mummert-Dixon Co.
• National Power Tools
• C. B. Nelson & Co.
• R. A. Ness & Co.
• Newman Machine Co., Inc.
• Newton Manufacturing Co.
• Northfield Foundry & Machine Co.
• Oliver Machinery Co.
• Onsrud Machine Works, Inc.
• John S. Oram Barrel Machinery
• Oshkosh Manufacturing Co.
• Parks Ball Bearing Machine Co.
• Parks Woodworking Machine Co.
• Partington, Inc.
• Pioneer Manufacturing Co.
• Jos Poitras & Sons Ltd.
• Porta-Tools, Inc.
• C. O. Porter Machinery Co.
• Porter-Cable Machine Co.
• Power King Tool Corp.
• L. Power & Co.
• Powermatic Machine Co.
• Powr-Kraft
• Rankin Brothers Manufacturing Inc.
• Red Star Products, Inc.
• Richards, London & Kelley
• Rockwell International of Canada Ltd.
• Rockwell Manufacturing Co.
• Rodgers Production Machinery
• Salstrom Carving Machine Co.
• Seneca Falls Manufacturing Co.
• Shop-King
• Shopmaster, Inc.
• Sibley & Ware
• Sidney Tool Co.
• Silver Manufacturing Co.
• Chas. H. Smith
• Smithway Machine Co., Inc.
• J. E. Snyder
• South Bend Lathe Works
• Sprunger Brothers, Inc.
• State Manufacturing & Engineering Co.
• Tannewitz Works
• Tomlee Tool and Engineering Co.
• ToolKraft Corp.
• Tops
• Toro Manufacturing Corp.
• John T. Towsley Manufacturing Co.
• Trevor & Co.
• Walker-Turner Co., Inc.
• J. D. Wallace & Co.
• Baxter D. Whitney & Son, Inc.
• Winnie Machine Works
• Wood Turning Machine Co.
• S. A. Woods Machine Co.
• Yates-American Machine Co., Inc.
• Yuba Power Products, Inc.
10-That's certainly a long list of manufacturers you copied from the OWWM site. You do not evaluate which made products of a quality superior to today's comparable goods, so it's just a list. It doesn't respond to my question. On a related point, some woodworking machinery of the olden days probably was superior, babbet bearings and all, but what fraction of the population could afford them at the time compared to the fraction of today's population with well-equipped shops?You responded to another post with this statement: "But you have only addressed a small part of my post. See if you can address the other issues and we'll talk..."I have addressed all of your post. See if you can address the other issues.
Donald, Donald, Donald.......You don't want me to comment on each of these do you?Here, I'll make a blanket statement:THEY ARE ALL BETTER THAT THE CURRENT TAIWANESE MACHINES.There ya feel better. Now you comment of each of them and give us detailed evaluations.But you keep forgeting where I stepped in here. I don't have to be right I don't have to convince you or anyone one way or another. My position is firm and unmoved:You can vote with your dollar!Anything else just doesn't matter.10saw
"You don't want me to comment on each of these do you?"No, I don't. You were the one who provided the list. I thought you had something in mind."THEY ARE ALL BETTER THAT THE CURRENT TAIWANESE MACHINES."You've done the comparison?"My position is firm and unmoved:You can vote with your dollar!Anything else just doesn't matter."Well, I guess that takes care of everything.
There was a lot of computer programming being shipped overseas to India, etc., until recently. Now the companies are rethinking the whole thing.
Seems, one of the Cad software companies decided they could write their code at a much lower cost in India. They proceeded to let go the programmers in the US, and ship the work overseas.
Imagine their shock and surprise, when one of their new foreign consultants, sold their core code to a Chinese company. They were even more shocked when they found out that the confidentiality agreement they had with their new Indian friends, wasn't extendable to it's employees, and in Indian court they have no means of redress.
OOPS!!!
They will be damned lucky if they don't end up bankrupt out of the deal.
10,
Self-interest is a fairly basic human trait - in fact, a trait of every sentient creature on the planet. It's the nature of evolution, you see.
This doesn't have to translate into a pure selfishness, as you seem to allege. Co-operative action amongst self-interested individuals is demonstrably the road to the success of all the individuals in the co-operative (eg nation states, commercial companies, as well as small groups like our local village committee, to name a few).
If this is so, you can see that efficient co-operation of a few larger groups may reap more and wider benefits for the individual members than might many more smaller co-operatives that are also competing with each other - in some conditions, at least. Too much competition is wasteful, although there must always be some, to weed out the inefficient and promote the better-adapted.
This is the fundamental assumption of global capitalism and a global free market. As Donald has argued, it does seem to push overall quality of goods and rates of employment up. It also improves the workers standard of living - but not in an even-handed, uniform, painless way. It also has other costs, short and long term. It is not a super-efficient model (very little that evolves is - the wastage rates of tried-and-failed designs is always high).
Perhaps your issue is that you have been caught in a group (of skilled people) that is in the process of being "evolved out" of the ever-changing market? The answer (in the present socio/economic ecology) is not to try and hang on to your previous status by fighting an inevitable trend but to change your skills into something that fits the market better.
You can fight the market instead, if you want. Trade Unions, commercial syndicates and other small selfish groups have tried to do so; and still do. Even whole nation states have a go, isolating themselves from the world market and its political/economic consensus.
All that happens is that the isolationists become a thorn in the side of everyone else, who have adapted to the market. Eventually they become pariahs. Many such organisations sacrifice the very individuals they were supposed to protect simply in order to survive as an entity. Consider some of the totalitarian ideological nation-states around the world.
In the longer term I personally hope that capitalism will evolve into a socio-economic model that is better adapted for both the future survival of its ecology (which is now the whole planet) and better conditions for its constituents (us, the producer/consumers).
This "new model" capitalism (or whatever label we give it) will not evolve as fast as it might if we all hunker down and try to artificially preserve some personal "golden age" when everything in our world was right (for us). Elsewhere in the world, individuals will be seeking to attain their own golden age and may be better adapted to finding it than you in your precarious time-warp.
In short, adapt or perish. A good way to adapt is to form co-operatives (formal or informal) with others, to pass current knowledge and learn new skills. Within WW, the Rob Lees, Tom Lie-Nielsens and others show what can be done to adapt, whilst still preserving (or even reviving) excellent traditions, in a harsh world market.
You can instead form that other sort of co-operative, some form of army, to fight off the "not-us" people. However, history tends to show that it is ideas and economics that govern outcomes, not men with threats or guns, who often cease to exist at all.
Lataxe
Dude, get off the soapbox. Did I ever advocate any of what you are accusing me of? No! You asked a question and I answered it with basic facts. That you don't like reality doesn't make me the bad guy. So I didn't make your "point". Reality made it.
Now, do you want to pay $1000 for a basic TV? That's the reality if you have high-pay, low to moderate skill labor getting paid more than me (with an advanced degree), which is why that type of manufacturing left the US long ago and continues to do so. That is the problem; too many Americans' sense of entitlement. I want the big car, big house, consumption of everything, and I don't want to have to work hard for it or advance my skills.
As for corporate pay; pure BS (so we agree here). I don't work in corporate America and don't make the big bucks. I do live in an area where migrants are a major factor, though mostly in the unskilled labor arena. Again, if people think they can make a really good living in low-skill or moderate-skill jobs then they will lose their jobs, that handwriting has been on the wall for many years now. That is the plain reality. GM is a perfect example. A guy on an assembly line that is not a skilled laborer, but instead can do a repetitive job assembling part of a car makes more than I do (makes a very nice living actually). Add to that the out of control cost of healthcare, pensions run amok, and general cost of living increases, and suddenly GM isn't competitive (but their CEO still gets bonuses). Such is the reality of the economy in the US. In many ways it is a false economy.
How much could you afford to pay for your tools if they were made in the US? You want to pay 2 grand for a contractor saw? Seriously, can you afford US-made tools? This is just the tip of the iceberg; I could go on but why bother, I question if you "get it".
Jake
"Dude, get off the soapbox...."Ooops..looks like someone got up on the wrong side of the rock!10saw
No, I simply take umbrage with a fool that asks a question and then assails those who answer him and accuse that person of holding views and taking stances that are not an accurate reflection of reality. Had you bothered to pay attention to my original post to Lakeboy you'd see where I stand on the issue (to an extent). Apparently you are too blinded by your rigid, "I'm right, you can't convince me otherwise" stance to have taken note of that.
Funny that you could only muster a sarcastic response and utterly ignored the substance of my reply.
Jake
Why are you so upset.....?This thread has been all over the place. I frankly don't recall what was said to who under what circusmstances. I'm sure I confused one post with another and combined emotions of many into response to one.If I contributed to any of your distress I aplogize. There was nothing personal meant.I'm glad I'm not the last one to chill out on this one!<G> Take it easy10saw
Why are you so upset.....?
This thread has been all over the place. I frankly don't recall what was said to who under what circusmstances. I'm sure I confused one post with another and combined emotions of many into response to one.
There was nothing personal meant.
10saw,
You can't just come out swinging (verbally) and then say it's not my fault, I got confused with who said what, nothing personal. The devil made me do it.
Like shooting someone and then trying to say, oops, nothin' personal.
Sorry, that is just not true. It is very personal to the person you slam / insult / or put down by either what you say or how you say it, or both.
You can say it, but it's not true.
Alan - planesaw
"10saw,You can't just come out swinging (verbally) and then say it's not my fault, I got confused with who said what, nothing personal. The devil made me do it.Like shooting someone and then trying to say, oops, nothin' personal.Sorry, that is just not true. It is very personal to the person you slam / insult / or put down by either what you say or how you say it, or both.You can say it, but it's not true.Alan - planesaw"Your right,Perhaps you could recommend some penance.Fact is it's not personal. I don't even know you. Frankly I don't even recall responding to one of your comments directly. In fact a quick search reveals I never responded directly to you. Are you ohcomeons mom? <g> Perhaps your just the politness police. Once again what would make you happy? I doubt it's anything I can do or say because this is the internet, cyberspace man!I frankly hold no ill feeling towards any of the bros here and wouldn't put a single one of ya on ignore (you can do that ya know).If I have gone over the line and smacked back harder than I should have or chose harsher words than was warranted:I apologize.If ya don't like me what my ideas are..sorry can't help ya there...thems your feelings.And once again I'm cool with the whole deal. I feel right at home with discussions like this. Heck around here if nothing gets broken ya aren't honest enough! Truth hurts and no one has exclusive rights.You keep up this attitude and you can't come on the Taco and used machinery tour with Lataxe and me<G>10saw
Edited 1/6/2007 12:15 am ET by 10saw
10,
I will let Alan have one of my tacos and then he will be mollified a bit.
As to a penance, you must send all your Lie Nielsens to a charity. It's adress is: Lataxe' shed, Galgate, England. :-)
Father Lataxe, seller of indulgences.
i have spoken to powermatic thay said they still make a good table saw here.i almost forgot,thakyoufor reminding me i am spending my money. HAPPY NEW YEAR , LAKE
I was a boilermaker out of a n/e hall and it bother's me to know that others will sacrffice someone's life for a nickel.if every one had the same working cond. we would not seam so expencive. happy new year. lake
Edited 1/1/2007 9:38 pm ET by lakeboy
Imported woodworking is well underway. Henredon is selling Chinese made furniture. They are one of our top brands in Furniture. How about this site?
http://worldmarket.com/home.jsp
A 40 inch sqaure sheesham (Indian rosewood) table for $300? I can't buy the hardwood to make a table with turned legs and a 4/4 top for $300.
They've got large dining tables for $600 or less.
The good news is these places are limited at the moment. But if your local accountant is sending your taxes (no name and no ssan associated with the data) to be done in India everything is on the table. Offshore resources can't install custom cabinets and built-ins or match existing finishes or design details. Great customer service always wins business.
Regards,
Ken
"Do as you would be done by." C.S. Lewis
Edited 1/2/2007 4:27 pm ET by kenshep
Thanks to Walmart et al, I believe china is already one of the bigger (biggest?) exporters of foreign-purchased remanufactured wood products.I guess they deforested themselves a while back, but they still manage to export, amongst other things, wood furniture.
Lake,
I don't know if you will read this since you have not read some of your other posts. But here goes. The best lathes on the market bar none are made by Oneway. So that take care of one machine. If you are dead set on North American, buy the rest of your machine from General. Not General International. General is all made in Canada. If you live anywhere near York ,PA you might want to visit Wilke Machinery. They are a General dealer and sell a high quality line of Taiwanese machines named Bridgewood. Wilke buys Bridgewood from a supplier in Taiwan and installs Baldor motors and Square D motor controls. I was in the same boat you were in 3 years ago and I went to York,PA ( I live in Ann Arbor,MI) and tried every tool myself. I bought both , but mostly Bridgewood because they are better machined and greater tolerances. My General machines are very good as well. Laguna and Mini-max carry very good Italian made machines as well. Some USA machines have fallen on poor quality times ( Powermatic 66 tablesaw) the PM2000 made in Taiwan is a better machine. If money is no object, get a Altendorf or Felder tablesaw, Oneway lathe, Aggazzani bandsaw and a Felder jointer.
Edited 12/31/2006 5:44 pm ET by terrylee86
THANK YOU i will check them out.wileie is in york pa?maby i will drive down . do they have running equip.? HAPPY NEW YEAR LAKE
Wilke Machinery is in York, PA and yes they will demo machines if you call them to see if they have that particular machine in stock. It is right after Christmas so their inventory might be down. Check out their website at wilkemachinery.com. Good Luck
Lakeboy
I just retired last year as well. What greates my craw is pepole buying out of this country, I was a vocational ed teacher and would swear by our young pepole and their enjunity and inovation.
That being said with one very bad experance with Taiwan made machineary, a student getting burned when the motor burned out.
I buy old american machines when I can't find or afford American made new.
Just my rant.
on my retirement my wife bought me a 10'' table saw(you gotta love that) delta. while recooping from my last back opperation my neighbor burnt up the moter.i thought it was opperator abuse until i burnt up another . i can not bring myself to tell her they are not like her father's old one.if you have access to purchase good used please let me know happy new year lake
If it's a Delta, you should be able to replace it with a decent motor such as a Baldor (which I believe is US made and still well thought of). Should not be too expensive, and a better motor will likely include thermal overload protection... in the meantime check your wiring and circuit breakers- I'd wire it for 230V if you haven't already done so.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
i had the same thought and had the electrician woorking on my addition look at it.electrical good motor bad fortunatly first one under warenty happy new year .lake
S--t before you realize it, a few hundred years from now, we'll all be B------g about imports from another planet! You know how those GD Martians are !!!!!!!
I can say your not going to be happy with Black and Decker run of the mill tools. A good start for a real punch list side by side look at tools is the woodworking shows that go about the country. I got faked out by Jet three years ago and who now owns Powermatic. As you go from one tool display to the next. The Mini-max brand will have the others wanting to not be set up next to. A cheep tool will crumble next the Mini-max brand. A few other brands come to mind. But the woodworking and tool magazines cater to the heavy add space and light on quality tools. I have gone thru 7 table saws and only one was a real keeper.
Powermatic was a keeper... at one time you could go into any shop school or what have you and it's top was clear ready for work with other tools acting as work benches.
powermatic was our shop saw in school . it may still be running happy new year. lake
I don't know what your abilities are, what you want to make, how much space you have for this or your budget but if you want a lot of bang for your buck AND want American made machinery, look for a place that sells used industrial machinery or check out the auctions. There's a place here in Milwaukee that sells some serious stuff. It's not cheap but it's tank-like in its construction. Old, but rebuilt and you won't want to buy something like this new ($$$$$). There are places like this all over the country.
H.F.: Tannewitz sells factory rebuilt machines, maybe others also. 36" rebuilt bandsaw only $9,000!! Ah, if I only had the space and 480v three phase.
http://www.tannewitz.com/t_factory_rebuilds.asp"... Buy the best and only cry once.........
The place here isn't a manufacturer, he buys woodworking machinery at auction and refurbs them, if needed. Paints them at a minimum if they need nothing else. Lots of Northfield, some Tannewitz, older Delta, etc.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
H.F.: If I had known more when I got started I might have tried to get used older machines. All my "big" machines are at least decent and will outlast me anyway. Might want to replace my table saw someday but thats about it. Duke"... Buy the best and only cry once.........
Considering the size of some of the machines at the place here, I don't even know how big the shop would need to be. Last time I was there, I was picking up the armature from my shaper, which was repaired and he had gotten a 20" jointer, painted it after checking it out and sold it in less than a week. It must have been 12' long. He has bandsaws that are over 10' tall, table saws with 16" blades and things like that.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
lakeboy,
As Vietnam Vet I too am Proud of America.. I would love it if we made good quailty woodworking stuff here in America at a reasonable price.
We don't and that's the trueth. eed to pay a massive premium to buy American..
I own many pieces of Tiawaneese equipment and have used it extremely hard for the past 6 years.. over 40,000 bd.ft of hardwood has benen cut palned shaped and milled with it and the only failure I've had is one $5.00 fan belt I got at my local NAPA store (auto parts store)
I buy Grizzly stuff Made in Tiawan.. A 14 inch band saw from them costs $435.00 a 6 inch jointer costs $355. and a lathe costs $375.00
If you want I'll gladly tell you about my experiance with them. and every detail from the bad to the good..
There is some really high quality equipment that comes from Canada that is made in Taiwan too.
Hal
lakeboy,
I live about 20 minutes from Wilke Machinery. Their Bridgewood line is made in different countries -- depending on the tools. I have their 8" jointer, made in Taiwan. It is great. I have their 20" professional bandsaw, made in Italy. It is great. Their Yorkcraft line is primarily made in China -- the same shops where Delta -- DELTA -- is made.
The world is changing. Coal is not coming back like it was before the Knox mine disaster in the 50s. Refusing to buy something made outside the US will not change a thing. If people refused to change in the late 1800s, then Northeastern PA wouldn't exist.
Hope you enjoy your woodworking,
Alan - planesaw
Lakeboy,
Congratulationd on your retirement!
I too am planning to get into woodworking when I retire. Unfortunately I still have 1 1/2 school years of teaching between then and now. As I plan for retirement I am starting to purchase my equipment and tools. My budget is a lot more limited than the one you seem to have so I'm bargin shopping for the best tools that I can afford. I would strongly suggest that you do the same no matter what country's workers make the tool. That should not be an issue. Good quality does not come from a country, it comes from the company and workers that make it.
Likewise, the quality of the furniture or other products made by woodworkers does not depend on the name brand or country of origin of the tools. It depends solely on the craftsmanship of the woodworker and his/her ability to use the tools available to him/her.
If you are buying the high quality tools and expecting to be able to produce quality products you will be highly dissapointed and discouraged withing a very short period of time and someone will be buying a super set of tools at bargin prices.
basset-hound
Your statement while true to a degree can prevent many from enjoying this hobby..
Take for example a hand plane.. a basic simple cheap Stanley hand plan can be made to perform very well indeed once properly tuned up..
We don't all need to buy LieNielsen's simply to enjoy the pleasure of fine wood working..
I own what must be the cheapest power tools made (Grizzly) and am extremely proud of what they have thus far produced for me and just how durable and trouble free they've been..
Sure I could have waited untill I could have bought much more expensive tools but during the interum I've managed to build a very nice house indeed! The money saved allowed me to buy enough wod that I could make tons of mistakes and not worry!
Nothing in my comment was meant to discourage anyone, especially a beginner.
You missed the whole point of my comment. It's not the tools, but the skill (or experience) of the craftsman that counts. You were able to do exactly what I eluded to by using inexpensive tools to create your projects. One can take inexpensive tools and make fantastic projects or one can make junk from expensive tools no mater where the tools are made.
Your point about saving money on tools so you could afford a lot of wood to "practice on" extends verifies what I said.
Basset-hound
I believe what you said (and I really should go back and check rather than count on my admittedly weak memory) was that we should buy the best tools we can afford, or words to that effect..
I actaully could have afforded much better tools than I bought. Grizzly is good simple basic machines but nobody will ever mistake them for the high end equipment currantly available.
With very few minor exceptions this is the first woodworking I've done in my life..
I took wood shop in school and flunked it!
Big old F ! That discouraged me so much that I virtually swore off wood working for the past 30 plus years. When the time for this house came, I figured what the heck, go for it!
I'm sitting here in (sorry to toot my own horn! ) a beautifully crafted double timberframe made with hardwoods. Cheap tools allowed me to do this with no real experiance!
The trick I found is just do it!
Buy the wood make the attempt and do better your next attempt.. The price you pay for the tools has litle to do with it..
And here I hope that Tauton Press is reading this.. get their magazines!
Fine home building, Fine wood working They've brought me from a complete novice to this point...
Thank You Tauton Press!
[quote]basset hound wrote:
I too am planning to get into woodworking when I retire. Unfortunately I still have 1 1/2 school years of teaching between then and now. As I plan for retirement I am starting to purchase my equipment and tools. My budget is a lot more limited than the one you seem to have so I'm bargin shopping for the best tools that I can afford. I would strongly suggest that you do the same no matter what country's workers make the tool. That should not be an issue. Good quality does not come from a country, it comes from the company and workers that make it.
Likewise, the quality of the furniture or other products made by woodworkers does not depend on the name brand or country of origin of the tools. It depends solely on the craftsmanship of the woodworker and his/her ability to use the tools available to him/her.
If you are buying the high quality tools and expecting to be able to produce quality products you will be highly dissapointed and discouraged withing a very short period of time and someone will be buying a super set of tools at bargin prices.
Not in the quote you were referring to.
basset-hound,
I stand corrected and offer my apologies!
basset-hound and frenchy,
Though it is true that inexpensive (I prefer this to cheap) tools will allow easier access to tooling for people looking to spend less, and there is definitely a place for that market niche, I must, however, whole heartedly agree with basset-hound, that one should purchase the very best quality tools that they can afford. Quality tools, both hand tools and machinery (this includes electric and pneumatic tools), will last for generations, if they are properly taken care of, and will insure the best results possible that the skill level of the user will permit. They will also insure that the frustrations experienced by the user are not due to tool limitations, but limited only to the lack of skill and experience. Proper tooling allows for an easier learning curve.
Please note that I am not saying that we need to purchase the most expensive tools on the market, only the best that we can afford. As it is, the best is not always the most expensive. This implies the need for research, including consultations with several people (like posting to this forum which gives really quick access to multiple opinions). I would also risk saying that, when possible, stretching the budget a bit and buy the next level up is justifiable.
Inexpensive lesser quality tooling generally has a shorter lifespan, and will most likely need replacing at some point, usually when we need it the most. (Murphy's Law). The quality tools I purchased throughout my career I still have and still use, because they continue to perform as they did when they were new. JL
Edited 1/24/2007 11:11 am ET by jeanlou
jeanlou,
I'm guilty of not walking the walk when I talk the talk.
I own too many Lie Nielsen hand planes and fancy rosewood handled whatevers to claim poverty.. Face it it's wonderfull to grab a fine tool or just the right whatever. I'm guilty too of buying complete sets of tools. Both so that I have everything and so that I get the fancy box that comes with high end sets..
But remember I flunked wood shop when I took it in school.. so it took courage to even start this project, there was no way that I would spend ten thousand dollars buying high end tools only to find out my shop teacher was right..
So I started with the cheapest power tools I could find. Mikita is the bottom when it comes to timberframing. But having the right 16 inch circular saw allowed me to quickly make a timber into the size I needed. A 6 inch wide power plane made the timber smooth enough to be proud of My chain morticer allowed me in minutes to make the mortice pockets that would have taken an hour by hand. Other power tools make a neat job possible quickly..
With the success from those cheap tools I got braver and braver. I was still in my cheapskate mode when I bought all my Grizzly equipment . I don't regret a single purchase and it' all held up beautifully in spite of some real use and virtually no maintinace.. Thus far it's handled over 40,000 bd.ft of hardwood and cost me $5.00 for a fan belt. Shorter lifespan? NO! most home shop equipment doesn't handle 5000 bd.ft. in it's whole life time so 40,000 thus far and soon 50,000 without failure is many many times the use that the average user puts equipment to..
Frenchy,
You are a scrapper, God Bless You, and if there is a last word to have, you will have it.
I am heartened to see that you 'fess up to buying more expensive and better quality tools. It adds to your credibility to see the honesty. As far as the less expensive tools are concerned, it is over the long term that that this is going to show. I think I saw, in a post somewhere, that you admitted to being relatively new to woodworking, and being self-taught with the help of FWW, FHB and the school of hard knocks.These are 3 great teachers, but I am afraid you can not yet lay claim to "Old Fart" status because of this, (you will get the opportunity a little later down the line) even though your profile shows you only a little bit younger than I am.
As far as Grizzly tools are concerned, I know several people who are very happy with their Grizzly equipment. The only thing that bothered me in your post is when you said "in spite of some real use and virtually no maintinace". I am a believer in ongoing preventive maintenance. Show your tools some TLC and they will in turn perform for you...don't, and they will leave you hanging when you need them the most.
Enjoy your project, JL
Edited 1/25/2007 9:25 am ET by jeanlou
jeanlou,
I too believe firmly in maintinace. However every spare moment I have is spent building this place.. The city and neighbors simply will not let up.. I've done it by the book but they are used to a crew coming in and bang out some walls with a nail gun, not doing mortice and tenion work on two sets of timbers. Pop some vinyl siding on or whatever and the house is finished inside six months.. Carefully hand fitting stones inside timbers isn't normal!
They buy premade trim and cut it to length, I dry my black walnut and then mill it myself and fit it after I give it 4 coats of marine varnish..
They call in an electricain and in a couple of days he drills a bunch of holes thru the joists and staples the wires up. I have to grove a chase on the back side of white oak timbers and then figure out how I'll hide it as it goes towards the panel.. Local code requires everything to be in armorflex or conduit unless installed by a licensed electricain.. who can quickly pull romex..
I digress,
Anotherwords I don't have time to do what should be done.. The massive amount of wood that my Grizzly stuff has handled belies your statement that cheap won't hold up over the long term.. I'll be willing to bet that in the five years I've owned some of these tools they have seen more wood than most hobbiests will use in 10 lifetimes..
As to a last word, frankly I'm just chatting. Taking a rest when I'm tired from other things.. Hope you don't think I'm being too confrontational.
Frenchy,
It is your style. If it bothered me I would just hang up the phone...but be ready for those subtle and sometimes not so subtle remarks now and then, because that is my style.
I am sure it needs a great deal of planning to be able to wire timber frame construction in a way that is aesthetic. Good luck and don't lose too many hairs. JL
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