Just talkin’ saws to get some action in hand tools.
For the hobby/rec woodworker who handcuts “fine dovetails” with a push saws or those that collect saws. Not for those who “dun’t doo no stinkin’ dovetails”, or use hatchets or want to talk dozsuki and pull saws or think $6.00 is too much for a saw. You all have your place. 🙂
MikeW — ( http://wenzloffandsons.com Sick Monkey Saw Works Blog) recently addressed a blade thickness issue (.012) floating around the custom saw making world and most of the forums. Especially in the dovetail arena. Especially relating to “Klaus and Pedder”. You can follow the links from Mike’s blog.
How thin is usable?
How much speed is needed?
How deep a cut can the blade handle without folding even with the thickest backing?
Will you do your own sharpening?
What’s your opinion?
Old Lady Saws has a great list of hand saw links.
Discuss among yourselves, film at 11:00
BB
Replies
talk dozsuki and pull saws..
I have a Lee Valley 'push' saw that works great. All I can say is that my pull saws work better (for me).. I only think of, if I usually have to 'pull' a saw to get my straight line started, why not finisht it off with pull strokes?
In contrast with WillGeorge, I learned to do dovetails with japanese pull saws, I have quality saws from BCT and was relatively happy, that is until I decided to see what the hoppla was all about the push saws and bought a LN dovetail and carcase saw. I would not in a million years go back to pull saws.
For all the articles about making hand dovetails, none that I read started with the admonition that if you want to make fine dovetails you need to have a saw that fits your hand and style of cutting.
I think speed is important to avoid mental fatigue. When you have to make 40 or 50 dovetails, it is no fun spending 5 minutes sawing each side of a dovetail. This just leads to more errors and getting distracted.
Being a novice I am not particularly concerned with the minutiae of saws, I want a saw that leaves a clean cut and has a kerf thin enough that the blade keeps on track. The LN dovetail saw I have has the think kerf and it is plenty thin for me, I don't need it thinner and I don't see the need for a thinner kerf.
I am forced to do my own sharpening simply because I live in Mexico and having it sharpen by LN would cost me more in shipping back and forth than the cost of the service, so far I have not done it but I am dreading the time I will have to do it. Any advice or help on this would be appreciated.
I ran across your post..
"In contrast with WillGeorge, I learned to do dovetails with japanese pull saws, I have quality saws from BCT and was relatively happy, that is until I decided to see what the hoppla was all about the push saws and bought a LN dovetail and carcase saw. I would not in a million years go back to pull saws."
I do not think that I said to anybody that a pull saw was better than a push saw. I 'THINK" I said I found that the pull saw worked best for me. I have a PUSH saw.. several.. Some cheep and some expensive...
I guess all I wanted to say.... My L'Cheepo pull saw works best for me. I can get more accurate cuts with it than my expensive push saws. I do not recall saying anything about a push saw being inferior.
To each our own.. My perfect lady was a brunette.. Maybe yours was a blond or a readhead?
I only stated my opinion on my use of a tool..
No hate here in my response.. Just by comment.... We all think a bit different and that makes things good....
Have you considred a frame saw?
Sort of combining the best of both worlds, thin blade and push action (implying that push action is an advantage, which may or may not be true for you).
Chris
BB,
You are either using tongue-in-cheek sarcasm or you are a tool snob. I haven't figured out which yet..ha ha
I, on the other hand am a tool slob. Other than a few antique tools I have (of which the value is unknown) I don't own any hand tools worth more than a couple of hours labor. I have nothing against designer tools but I'd be happy using a brick if it seemed the right tool for the job.
I try to keep my nicer tools in the shop but I still do most of my work at various job sites. Things can get a little beat up hauling them all over the country side and as such many of my tools have battle scars.
BTW, if I could find a decent dozuki for $6, I'd buy three. Speaking of dozukis (although I think you said not to) it is my tool of choice for most fine work, if it can't be done with a worm drive Skill Saw that is. I used to carry a back saw and a couple of conventional push hand saws in my tool box but over the years they have been replaced with half a dozen dozuki type pull saws of various types and conditions.
The other day, I needed to make an adjustment to a miter in a crown molding that was already fastened to the top of a cabinet. My sharpest dozuki back saw performed the task quite handily. I don't think I could have made that cut with a push saw. I use my handsaws a lot compared to most carpenters. I just don't think they take the time to learn how to use them. Although this morning I tried to adjust a miter on a Trex hand rail with another more beat up dozuki which didn't turn out so good but fortunately I was able to fix it nearly perfect with my Skill Saw.
I can see how a nice sharp well balanced back saw or dovetail saw would be great for making hand dovetails but until I have one I'll use my dozukis although I cut as much as I can with the band saw anyway.
To each his own. If we all did everything the same way it would be boring to talk about.
"You are either using
"You are either using tongue-in-cheek sarcasm or you are a tool snob"
Neither. Most who know me on this forum would say the opposite. Other than one plane, I don't think I have any handtools that cost more than a single hours labor.
Be that as it may I was just trying to get some discussion going on a rather flat forum and limit it to the subject at hand without going into all other saw's merits. Yes, I do know that "grandfather's side cutting hand set shark and pike tooth Polynesian sideways cutting coconut saw" that has served so many for so long is the only saw to use but... :)
The only thing I put out there was if any one had an opinion on these exact "NEW" saws as it seems, in the handmade saw industry ( about 18 different companies) there is some Sturm and Drang on bringing out a thinner "pusher".
Maybe they are just not getting enough sales in a bad economy with their existing product lines.
As to saws in general -- I have and use just bout' all of them. I have built and use framers for ripping since the 60s -- some for crosscut and have small ones for other scroll and DT use, own a lot of Borg-Ace Junk etc. Sarge put me on to a great little cheap Borg Irwin a few years back. Tight, sharp and replaceable, Same as the cheap little razor saws. Great for veneer. I use a cheap Xacto saw for cutting ebony plugs. Picked up a great Bahco 14" 16 pointer for $1 - new, at a Garage sale. Just as floppy as it could be but cuts a great little line on small work. Emphasis on small work. I have $.50 Distons that I wouldn't trade. Use my Japanese saws a for everything and I have a fair amount of GP saws along with some very good and some atrocious small gents', panel and DT saws. I have had to re-groove and relieve all my better Dovetail saw handles -- too much "pointy" pressure on index finger. I even have a Japanese Dozsuki with a western grip. Biggest reason for me not using Doz more often is they really can't handle a lot of hardwoods without shattering a lot of teeth and it gets old replacing the blades. Use em all and all have there place. I'll even reverse a hack saw blade for some cuts.
Many times they are all more efficient in "one-off" small cuts than powering up all the heavy junk and dust colllectors. More so when your working on your own stuff instead of a clients stuff.
But the questions remain:
How thin? As the thinner the blade the tighter the kerf but the thinner the less stable. Ever tried to push a piece of string by the end? Some have had the experience here of "folding" their western dovetail saws even with a strong brass back. Most Dovetail saws are at or above .020 and even then some fold or become uselessly rippled. These "new" attempts are just a little over half the thickness of current saws. A typical Doz runs .010 -.012 so are in the same range and but for the extreme rake could probably used in reverse.
How much speed? Thinner starts easier but clears less, binds and can't handle a significant set giving a finer but slower cut.
How deep can it cut? A saw might work fine cutting soft pine with 1/2" deep cuts but a thin blade has it's limits even with the strongest back and these people are talking in the neighborhood of 1" deeps at the hilt. Is such a beasty useful?
Lastly, would you sharpen it. Some might buy such a saw but if and when you needed to sharpen it would you feel good about it if (because of its thinness and fine teeth) you always had to send it to the maker (if they were still in business)?
True, these are all nitting at picks but nothing when compared to bevels and sharpening stones and frogs. Talking saws is lightweight in the Handtools forum.
Where is Adam and Mike?
Anyway, back to work
BB
"But the questions
"But the questions remain:
How thin? As the thinner the blade the tighter the kerf..." (Boilerbay, August 16)
And if you are in the habit of clearing the waste out with a coping saw, the dovetail saw's kerf may well be thinner than the set on the coping saw blade. This creates its own smallish difficulties, eg, a tendency to rag the existing cut as the coping saw is worked into the root of the kerf, and it makes it more difficult to initially turn the corner so that the waste can be removed.
Personally, I've never found any particular advantage in using a dovetail saw with a very fine kerf. I tried a Japanese saw a few times for dovetailing: I didn't like the thin kerf and wasn't fond of the sawdust and body of the saw obscuring the marked line, and stopped using it. I like a regular western dovetail saw for fine dovetails, eg the Independence saw I mostly use. For chunkier dovetails, perhaps needing somewhat less precision, I have an old tenon saw that I reworked to create a rip tooth pattern. They do well enough for me. Slainte.
Richard,
I feel much the same. Since final stroking is off a chisel, the thinness of the blade in light of it's flexibility even with a huge back doesn't seem to warrant as a successful tool. Even in limited use. I suppose one could make the argument that would be the last best hope for zero entry DTs. but some one else would come back with a laser. I did just check around and Lie-Nielsen is now offering a .015. I suppose he's splitting the difference between a Doz and a light traditional western version.
The ones I use most is a canted old English .018 (bout the same as short Independence give or take a eyelash) and I also use a old German tenon 10 point rip which gives me up to 4" depth. Those are just for me. Bandsaw stuff for clients but Im just about done with other peoples work now. My personal problem with Japanese saws, (and I do love em) is that the long pull handle becomes awkward when reversing to do the opposing pin cuts. I seem to have to shift much farther to one side or the other. Suppose it's just how you learn. Makes me feel like a broken winged bird. I agree also with the coping problem. Doesn't leave clean bite material for a chisel in the turn and destroys what you have worked for. Kind of self defeating.
Like to hear how others feel about thin blades.
Regards,
John
Never met boilerbay but I would think almost anybody in here, for a while (comes back often), is a 'tongue-in-cheek sarcasm or a tool snob' and enjoys ..
OK, Maybe some of those that have really expensive hand planes? I love them anyway....
To each their own is what I say and I for one, thinks boilerbay is just boilerbay, and NOT boilerplate...
Maybe he was just funnin' you? Not sure.. I also say things just to get another idea and sometimes get what i think is 'flack'.. I hardly ever get, or is that often get, 'flack' that I think is hate mail! I get a new reply,,
All I know is that cheep Japan style pull saws work. They can however, break off a few teeth in a heartbeat, if you hit some strange grain...
You may have noticed that sometimes my attempts at humor can be somewhat coarse. I mean no harm. I use the term "tool snob" affectionately.
I was remodeling a chair this afternoon and cut a couple of tenons on the top of some chair legs that were already assembled into the chair. These were somewhat awkward cuts at best and I used my dozuki back saw. The joints turned out quite nice.
Bret
I guess that makes me the "tool snob"
BB,
Being that I'm a two hour wage tool buyer compared to your one hour unless of course you are way higher on the wage scale than I.
I am impressed by your knowledge of hand saws. Your saws sound like good friends.
Reading your post prompted me to cut a couple of practice dovetails using a couple of different saws. I was using 3/4" beech and making through DTs. I have an very old Disston back saw that my Grandfather passed on to me that I set and file myself and I admit that I'm not an expert saw sharpener. I had difficulty keeping my cuts straight in the endgrain beech with that saw. Then I tried a "dovetail saw" that I bought on impulse at Ace Hardware which is a POS and is filed like a hacksaw. It's either going in the trash or to be used for cutting nails. Then I tried my dozuki styled Vaughn double sided saw which just never seemed that sharp even when new. Lastly and most favorably I used my Imported Japanese thin bladed back saw with the wrapped bamboo handle. I don't know the brand as I cannot read Japanese. I've had this saw a long time and it's still sharp which makes it a little grabby in the end grain of beech but by far produced the best results for me. BTW it takes me about 15 minutes to make a three tail corner.
Can you even sharpen a dozuki type saw?
Oh, I used an Irwin coping saw to remove the waste then cleaned up by chopping to the line with a chisel.
I also have some old western style hand saws hanging on the wall, a small little crosscut and a couple of big rip saws. I have used them mainly to finish cuts that power saws could not complete in timber framing. I hardly ever use them in the shop. With a band saw and table saw why would you?
Some one once told me that you can tell the quality of a hand saw by making it sing. I'd have to agree. My little crosscut will sing quite nicely and cuts well too. It's hard to get a back saw to sing.
I used to have a Swiss Army knife that had a pretty good saw in it and there is a story that goes along with that for another time.
Bret
Bret-
That beech is a bitch. It will really tear teeth. When I've used it, it always seem to have micro waves and opposing grain hidden from mortal detection that deflects all human efforts to define a straight line with a hand tool. I have better cuts with it when I wear aluminum foil on my head.
Power sawing it - well thats another story.
As to dozuki's, I have never tried to sharpen them but I understand there are ultra fine feather files made to do so. I don't have a problem with sharpening my regular saws but I don't have the patience on the Dozs' or the Ryobas'.
As to the others - there are really good uses for those junk saws. Cut em up for scrapers and beading cutters. :)
BB
BB,
How does one cut up an old saw into scrapers? Would a cutting wheel on an angle grinder work? I guess I'll find out.
Bret
take it to a metal shop or get one of these and have fun
How does one cut up an old saw into scrapers?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7hIjnzJBnA&feature=related
Bret,
Napie, who used to be on the forum a lot, suggested using a dremel cut off wheel and I found it really does work quite well. A little slow.
Also Fastenal Corp. has several diamond cut offs that fit standard 4", 4.5, 5 and 6" grinders.
Very spendy.
Should be some dealers in your area. bout 61 in WA.
BB
For guidance contact the mother ship
better cuts . . . when I wear aluminum foil on my head.
Ha, ha, ha, aaahhhh, Ha, ha, ha, ha
I would assume the a plasma cutter cost more than two hours wages.
Should I wear aluminum foil while using the angle grinder?
Bret
I guess I don't understand the excitement over the really thin push saws. I avoided push saws in general until I dumped using my TS, and then I couldn't really avoid them any longer.
I like thin pull saws, but in most push saws, I don't know if I see a benefit to having a thin plate. If it cuts a dovetail in 3 strokes instead of 4, what does that do for the average user if it's still on the same side of the line?
I spend a lot more time planing stock than sawing it. I don't like saws as thick as miter box saws, but anything else in the range of the old disstons (mine are something like .024-.025 on the mic) for a tenon type saw seems fine. The set and the tooth geometry are important to me, but those aren't dependent on thickness, at least not to my awareness level.
So, I guess the question is, if you're a hobbyist, what's the race? How long does it take someone to make a basic dovetailed drawer with dovetails on four sides. It takes me at least an hour if I don't dally. I am a hobbyist. Just not that much of that hour is sawing.
David,
Good thoughts. Someone should take a tally -- not me--maybe Mel...
BB
All I can say is that I get a pull saw started straighter than a push saw.. Just what I use..I still say none is better than the other for either.. Who like to use either of them.
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