The forum is getting reeeel slow.
Lataxe in a recent post about my visit to Mike Wenzloff’ shop indicated there may be other fine makers of goodies out there, I agree. I also think there are many talents out there.
On both sides of the pond and from pole to pole. Perhaps this would be a good project for knotters.
Each to their closest geographical area.
Go, find, and learn. And bring your impressions back to us.
Seek out the Tom’s, the Larry’s and the Philip’s and see what you may take from them. (Lataxe, I mean “take” figuratively!)
The Alex’s, the Alice’s and the Henry’s. Who?, Ah, there is the point.
They are all around us and for these current generations in this time we have the unique ability to present to all what was obscured or lost in times passed. Who wouldn’t’ like to have been a fly on the wall in a Chippendale shop or at Norris or Spears.
I’m not tying these thoughts to just tool makers but to all the really unique talents out there that work in our medium. These stories could bring a lot of illumination and insight. Not at the level of oral histories but none the less illuminating.
Some would say, let the magazine do it but I say let us. We are not confined to print/signature schedules or who the market is, nor advertising restraints.. Not confined to photographic dpi needed for 4 color 150/175 line screen or travel expenses or to editorial oversight. Not to a predetermined number of profiles.
I personally couldn’t care a wit of writing ability or grammar.
If you tell it, we will come.
Samson and Lataxe have shown the forums that their exceptionally well documented endeavors can surpass wood working magazine’s attempts at piece illustration, and I think the vast membership (possibly) can do a lot to improve our lot even more.
We are Prometheus unbound!
What say you all?
(Lataxe — I ‘m not sure I remember that accurately and I’m very probably much misquoting Mike but I have the impression that he said something about installing airport metal screeners at the exits relating to large pocketed visitors from Blighty.)
BB
Replies
Boiler,
Thanks for the invite. Here are some pics of some of the pieces of a woodworker I met this past winter. His emphasis is on scaled replicas.
What amazed me more than anything was the number of tools he uses - very few and they're not in the best of condition.
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Here is a pic of an original truck
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And here is the replica.
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Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bolier,
Oh and I think one reason the forum is reeeeel slow is the weather. I
t's generally warmer, at least on this side of the pond, and we can spend more time in the woodshop (less time on Knots), get outdoors more often and more folks on vacation/holiday mebbe?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,I don't have any grandchildren but it would be fun to do some of that now and again. Especially with all the left overs from projects. I would imagine he does a fair amount with scroll and mini/micro lathes? It would be fun to see that set up. Thanks for the look.BB
Bob..
Perfect example and I will add my ..
http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=9255.3
I only use it for cutting 'strange profiles' which is often.. Sometimes I just use it to see what happens on a stick with whatever bit!
BB,
Here are a few links to sites I've been gawpin' at recently as part of my current obsession with oak and English A&C traditions.
http://www.robertthompsons.co.uk/index.php
Robert Thompson had a few apprentices, one of whom sold furniture to my parents-in-law, in the 60s. When they shuffled off their mortal coils much of the furniture ended up in wore hoosey. I have since come to like it's adzed surfaces and hefy oak architecture more and more. One day I'll learn to emulate that adz-scalloped surface but employing a tool I can learn to use competantly in rather less than a decade and without losing a foot (of the pedometric or height variety).
Here is a photo-tour of a small London dealer in A&C stuff. I'd like to crawl around in there with a camera, notebook and tape measure!
http://www.millineryworks.co.uk/pages/walkround.htm
And another dealer with an extensive photo archive of A&C:
http://www.hillhouse-antiques.co.uk/about.asp
Here is a site all about another English A&C luminary, Charles Voysey:
http://www.voysey.de/Furniture%20designsThumbnails/Thumbnails.html
*****
Carving is now top of my learn-to list so I've been rooting about to find some good web-based information. For a new comer like moi, knowing nuthin' of carving, this is the only site I've put in my "favourites", after a lot of looking and reading:
http://www.chrispye-woodcarving.com/index.html
I hop to go, with the ladywife, to get edercated by Mr Pye, later in the year. I've devoured the extensive information on his website and also his Book 1 concerning carving tool choice, sharpening etc.. First class information it is too - clear, organised, unequivocal, extensive and entertaining. And come-by via a great deal of experience & thought.
Finally, here is a link to a list of British designer-makers and their websites. I'm always a bit suspicious of the "designer" tag but judge for yourself:
http://www.designermakers.org.uk/MemberProfiles.html
Lataxe
PS When is your next Knots photo-essay due then? :-)
Lataxe, Great sites. Good start. I might have to restrict myself to just a few weeks in the Millinery works.
The Robert Thompson Link is also great. I.E. http://www.robertthompsons.co.uk/oak_furniture/1/Tables.htm.
I've never given it much thought but how does one do that scalloped top. A grinder or perhaps a slanted grinder on a traveling jig? That would interest me.
And the designer link is fantastic - especially the barnsley-furniture link. Many ideas and much inspirations."When is your next Knots photo-essay due then? :-)"
The Rogue Brewery? A close up study on the architecture of tavern tables.ThanksBB
BB,
We has a-one o' them tables but made by a mouseman apprentice, Albert Jeffray; and its a single pedesal version:
http://www.robertthompsons.co.uk/mouseman_furniture/701/1/Refectory_Dining_Table__.htm
There are also some Albert-versions of several other mouseman-designed items, which are identical in all respects to the mouseman ones on that website save Albert carves a bird on his instead of a mouse. Presumably Robert Thompson gave the design-rights of his originals to his apprentices.
Every surface is scalloped with the adz, which is used to "smooth" and "flatten" surfaces rather than using a plane. Even chair legs and other small parts have this scalloped surface, except where there are carved areas such as the octagonal profiles of legs.
My father-in-law, when he bought these pieces in the 60s (for a tiny sum compared to today's prices), was allowed to stand on a balcony above the workshop where the blokes were swinging their adzes. I would like to go and watch the current chaps, to see if they still do it now. Whilst it might be possible to get the scalloped effect with a big Festool hand plane having one of those curved cutter-heads in it, I bet they still use those adzes. Once the skill is acquired it's perhaps a fairly rapid process. Only 13,795 swings needed to become proficient. :-)
Should you be interested in some of the design details and surface effects on this furniture style, I could take some close-ups and post a few pics........?
Lataxe
Lataxe,
I don't know about anyone else but I certainly would enjoy them.
As to the adzes -- do you think that's the way they do it now? I can easily understand they did it by hand then. The consistency is amazing which is why my first thought leaned toward the mechanical. It is still, after all these years, difficult not to default to the power tool mentality even though mine sit more and more unused. Not unloved -- just unused.
I would really love to see a video of the process. I see it often, but with a smaller scallop here at a resort near by. The tables, some whole wall panels, wood urns. But it is all so incredibly uniform.
Talk about tennis elbow...BB
BB,
Give me a day or so (busy just now tending to the boredom of a housebound friend who has cut a thumb ligament and broken two ribs - don't ask) and I'll post some photos of the Albert/Mouseman items we have here at home.
I may have to ring up the mouseman place also, to see if they do still adz and whether one may go to watch. They are not too far from here (a pleasant drive through the Yorkshire Dales) so maybe I might even give myself a treat and visit them (wallet left at home).
Would a mechanical approach be faster than the adz? I would guess that use of something like that festool planer would not leave a desirable finish straight from the planer. Sanding would surely be needed to obliterate tear-out or other obvious planer-effects. The adz may leave a close-to-ready surface though. There may be some softening of the ridges between the scallops with sandpaper but this would take very little time compared to having to sand the whole surface.
Lataxe
BB,
As promised, some pics of the Albert Jeffray mouseman-style furniture lying aboot this hoose. Too many pics for one post so there are several.
First, the dining table and chairs. Note all them scallops from the adz. The other overiding themes of these mouseman designs are:
chamfering to extremes - things become octagonal;
thick and heft solid wood parts of utilitarian design;
pinned M&T joinery as the overiding method of putting items together;
hand tool construction and finishing.
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That rose is a Yorkshire rose, naturally, as the mouseman and Albert, his lad, were both Yorkies I believe - certainly they lived and worked there; their firms still do.
Next post - cupboards.
Lataxe
Lataxe,Not ignoring you, just savoring the photos and they are apreciated!
Will contemplate more when I get a little ahead.
Thanks,John
Just in passing, what is that "thinker pose in the framed photo in shot "Diningtabletop". I thought that was supposed to be au natural. I better look up my Rodin.I always thought of you as more of his http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Monument_to_Balzac.jpg
but with a Marcou!BB
BB,
That pic of moi, le thinkeur, was taken some years ago by wife No. 2, as I sat upon a mountain top deciding the Very Important Issue of, "What shall I have for tea, sausages or a nice crab tart"? You will be relieved to know that I decided on the tart, so the world didnae end and society didn't collapse, which may well have happened had I et sausage (butterfly-wing effect).
******
Now, the Mouseman biography arrived today. Amongst other things, I read that their visitor centre does indeed conduct tours; one may even interrogate a craftsman as he works, using the self-same tools and tekneeks of Robert Thompson the Mouser hisself. There are photos of a lad adzing away at a tabletop whilst other chaps busy about in the background.
Apparently the current firm has order books full to bustin' yet still operates in the old-fashioned way from the self-same premises (at Kilburn, Yorkshire) where Robert Thompson was born and worked, some parts of which are true Elizabethan! His Da was the village carpenter and, although poor Robert was sent to some nasty metalworking place for a 5 year apprentieship, he eventually returned home and took over his Pa's work.
His business took-off from "mere" simple village carpenter to cabinet maker when he managed to get a commission from Ampleforth School, who were impressed with his attempts to revive the medieval WW traditions he had found and researched in local cathedrals, churches or other old buildings.
The current Mousey place still does traditional 5-year apprenticeships with lads straight from school. Most stay and work their whole lives (they have qualified men aged from 23 to 70-odd). Remarkable!
Lataxe
Cupboards:
The design aspects that dominate here (as well as those elements evident from the table and chairs, shown in the previous post) are:
frame and panel carcasses, doors and just about everything;
heavy black iron knobs, hinges etc. that are reminiscent of Spanish stuff.
Again, all surfaces (top, rails, styles, panels) are adzed. All the M&Ts are pinned.
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Next, some small tables.
Lataxe
Small tables and the bookshelf:
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And Albert's maker-mark:
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I hope the construction and design details of this English A&C tradition are of some interest. The style doesn't seem to be all that well-known today - certainly not as well-known as the Cotswold style of Gimson & The Barnsleys. And even they are nowhere near as well-known as the major American A&C styles of Mission, Roycroft, G&G et al.
Lataxe
"The style doesn't seem to be all that well-known today - certainly not as well-known as the Cotswold style of Gimson & The Barnsleys. And even they are nowhere near as well-known as the major American A&C styles of Mission, Roycroft, G&G et al."
I don't think you can say that as fact Lataxe. It might depend on who or what you learn from. My training came before the advent of the internet and its domination by North American users and woodworkers. The work of the Cotswold School, Gimson, the Barnsleys, Mouseman, etc mean more to me and my heritage than any of the well known American Arts and Crafts practitioners. Slainte.richardjonesfurniture.com
Richard,
It does seem to be the case that you lads in the UK formal education WW world are much more oriented at the British traditions. However, I've struggled to find much published work, of the popular kind at least, concerning British A&C.
Most publications about our native A&C seem to be oriented from a museum perspective; or a biographical perspective. It's difficult to find a book that looks at the main A&C design traditions as its main topic. As far as I know, there are no "how to" books about, whilst there are hundreds covering American A&C styles.
But perhaps you know different and can point me at some? :-)
Lataxe
Lataxe, I suspect you have hit on an essential difference. The A&C movement is, or perhaps was, woven into the trained British furniture designer maker's DNA from day one, whereas it's maybe a whole new area of work for the exploring amateur woodworker learning from the internet and books. Professionals don't really need 'how to' books to know how to make Arts and Crafts furniture. All that's needed is the historical context, the style, some basic dimensions and maybe a picture or two to show us what it looks like if we want to reproduce something similar.
The truth is the Arts'n'Crafts style is relatively straightforward in construction. It's nearly all mortise and tenons, perhaps draw-bored cross dowelling (sometimes including a proud dowel in a different wood and pyramiding of the proud dowel) and square or rectangular sections of wood with some decoration, eg, a mason's mitre, a stopped chamfer, some piercing, or a fairly straightforward 'cloud lift' (to use the American terminology), cut with a bandsaw and refined with a spokeshave, or perhaps a bit of end clamping (breadboarding). There are those that like to make more decorative clamped ends with pieces of purple heart wood slipped into a groove or similar at either end, sometimes some edge profiling or carving, and (again) the common pyramided exposed dowels, often in ebony, purpleheart or some other non-brown wood species. The only really common exception to the M&T is dovetailing, mostly seen at the drawer box corners, but that too is really basic skill-- every competent woodworker can produce drawer box dovetails.
There are some basic techniques you need to be good at. Get good at the getting wood square, executing M&T's and dovetails and you're skills are mostly in place. After that look at the style and make pieces based on what you see. You don't need the philosophical and the rather flawed ideological position of the original Arts and Crafts proponents to create something that is a recognisably Arts'nCrafts in style, flaws and all sometimes, ha, ha--- ha, ha, ha. Slainte.
richardjonesfurniture.com
Edited 6/6/2009 7:07 am by SgianDubh
Hi there thanks for the photos. That is different than I have ever seen! I really liked that small cabinet.
I would like to see more of that style of work also. So if you guys find some please share.
Friend Lataxe,
Do those "adze" marks actually cross or pass over (as they appear to do in the photos) from the case frames to the door frames of the cupboard and sideboard--as if they were adzed after assembly?
Just wondering,
Ray
Ray,
Yes indeed - it seems that even the final-fitting of the parts is accomplished via the adz, which is remarkable. In fact, it almost beggars belief.
The Mouseman website says that they have a visitor centre. I think I must have a trip over the Pennines to have a gawp. I will wheedle my way into their manufacturing area and interrogate one of their working men, if I can.
Lataxe, wondering if there is an adz school somewhere (inclusive of emergency room, blood bank and so forth).
Lataxe,
Fascinating. Not having seen examples of this type surface on real furniture(--only on tabletops in some restaurant or other,) this side of the water, it strikes me as almost a caricature of "handmade" furniture--the putting on of tool marks as an after the fact operation. Nonetheless, it makes an attractive surface, inviting one to run his hand over the tops and down the sides.
Ray
Ray,
It does beg the question, doesn't it: what is the fundamental intent of that adzing? Is it to flatten and fair surfaces (as it seems to be with the tabletop) or to decorate?
Well, I have just had a good explore of the undersides and such. Ah ha! No adzing! So, it appears that the rascals have flattened and possibly thicknessed stuff in the traditional way (the underside of the tabletop looks handplaned) but then decorated the show surfaces with the adz scallops.
So, as the Barnsleys et al copied the chamfering and other techniques of wheel or cartwrights but used them as a style or decorative motif in their furniture, so has that mouseman with the adzing.
Certainly there was much rough carpentry done (still done) with the adz and drawknife, on items like beams, floorboards and other structural components of utilitarian buildings or wood-based machinery of former centuries. The mouseman worked a great deal in churches so perhaps took up the traditional shaping tools & techniques to match his refurbishment pieces with the extant wooden framework or furniture in the churches? (I am guessing).
In all events, it does seem that the adzed surfaces in this furniture is primarily made that way for decorative rather than constructional purposes. Nothing wrong in that, mind. Such decoration is attractive to eye and hand. However, it is in some sense not that "honest work" that is supposedly one hallmark of A&C furniture a la Morris and his mates.
Interesting. (Well, I think so, sad case that I yam).
Lataxe
PS a biographical book concerning the mouseman is even now floating through realspace in a van from Amazon to Galgate. I will be examining the text for further clues concerning this adz thang.
Hi Lataxe,
So when will an adz also float through realspace to Galgate?
(I'm looking forward to pics of a set of side tables in about 2-3 months.)
-Andy
I'm not tying these thoughts to just tool makers but to all the really unique talents out there ??
Does that mean we older folks can reply? OR that was unique NOT Antiques!
Boilerbay,
One of the main reasons this place may be "slow" is that it has become the equivalent of a high school "clique". There is a core group of posters that simply ignore, or demoralize others.
I used to post here regularly, but the treatment I began to receive made me stop, I still lurk, but find little of value.
Sour grapes perhaps, but this is how I see it.
Mike
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