Replies

1. 
   suntoad | Mar 30, 2004 06:29am | #1

   Unisaw:

   The vertical lines are rays. And it does look like a softwood, i.e., a conifer--no pores. But, no resin canals seems suspicious.

   I have a deck cap rail which I bought for a few dollars/ft. which I've also had a hell of a time identifying..It was sold as "redwood". Not hardly. It's specific gravity is almost 1.2.. This wood sinks like a rock in water. Also it was hard as concrete to cut. What's very curious to me is the photo you posted looks IDENTICAL to what I have.

   I think I MAY have desert ironwood. Does your sample sink in water?

1. 
   UncleDunc | Mar 30, 2004 08:43am | #2

   Redwood was my totally uneducated guess, too.

   As for yours, I would sooner believe the SG of redwood ranges up to 1.2 than believe a stick of desert ironwood long enough to make a deck cap rail from.

1. 
   suntoad | Mar 30, 2004 09:25am | #3

   Your pic looks like redwood or cypress. But both of those woods have an average specific gravity of less than 0.5. Like I said, mine is more than twice that density. And hard as steel. I'll need an actual bole from a redwood tree (with some foliage!) which matches perfectly my sample characteristics for me to believe what I have is redwood.

   Check your wood's density. And get a copy of Bruce Hoadley's "Identifying Wood", or else "Wood Structure and Identification", by Core, et.al. Neither of which I have, but covet. Let me know what you discover.

1. 
   UncleDunc | Mar 30, 2004 07:08pm | #7

   Oh, I agree that a chunk of redwood with a SG of 1.2 is improbable, it's just that a piece of desert ironwood long enough to make a deck rail cap is even less probable, IMO. I have handled redwood that was very heavy, but it was also clearly very wet, and not hard as steel.

   Despite the close visual match between your sample and Unisaw's, I don't think his brick mold is ipe, for two reasons. 1) He didn't say anything about it being hard and heavy. 2) No molding manufacturer in his right mind would feed ipe through his cutters if he could avoid it.

   Edited 3/30/2004 12:08 pm ET by Uncle Dunc

1. 
   suntoad | Mar 30, 2004 08:47pm | #8

   What I have is a *molded* deck rail cap. I'd put my money on it being Ipe, except for the color--it's a deep, reddish brown, almost purplish in fact. How they molded it, I've no idea...I can't even get an end grain sample with a razor after soaking it. It's like metal.

   I think Unisaw has redwood. I wish I knew what the hell I have.

2. 
   jjhamer | Mar 31, 2004 02:17am | #10

   Thanks for the information.  This sample does float in water.  I don't remember how to calculate the density.   I vaguely remember calculating specific gravity of soils, but that was a long time ago.   Do you have know how to calculate it?

   Here's two more pictures.  This wood is exterior trim on a house.  I do think it is Redwood. 

   View Image

   View Image

1. 
   suntoad | Mar 31, 2004 02:46am | #12

   Looks like redwood to me. It's rather easy to check density if you have a decent balance or digital scale using the displacement of water method after first weighing the sample. The ratio of the densities of the sample to that of water (1g/ml) equals specific gravity.

   Here's my pic:

   
2. 
   jonsherryl | Mar 31, 2004 05:22am | #14

   Suntoad, don't ever take as gospel an ID opinion offered up soley on the basis of a computer photo...but I think you've got a few clues going for you in the assumption that your mystery wood is Ipe:

   While the texture looks a little coarse for the ipe we usually see as decking in the market up here...ipe is cut from many species and some of them are a little on the coarse side. Perhaps more importantly though, your sample seems to have "annual rings." Ipe is a tropical wood, but unlike moist rainforest species, it sheds it's leaves during the dry season...so it experiences a brief period of dormancy as it prepares to blossom with the coming rains. Consequently, it often produces a ringed end grain.

   Also, the light colored flecks you describe are typical of ipe. They are usually a light warm yellowish (or orange-amber) in color and result from lapachol (one of the wood's extractives) that accumulates in the vessels. This compound also reacts to alkaline in the soil, forming reddish pigments and it is the reason why some ipe develops a rich reddish brown color, while most of it is a dull olive drab.

   And finally, a specific gravity in the 1.00 range wouldn't be unreasonable for some of the denser species of ipe, especially if the sample also has some moisture content.

   ...So, Suntoad, without the advantage of having a sample in hand, I wouldn't argue too strenuously that it isn't ipe.

   ---Another candidate might be purpleheart. It also produces flecks as a result of extractives in the pores...but the pigmentation doesn't seem right and it doesn't typically produce as much seasonal growth variation (the appearance of "rings"). 

   Edited 3/30/2004 10:34 pm ET by Jon Arno

   Edited 3/31/2004 9:43 pm ET by Jon Arno

2. 
   JohnWW | Mar 30, 2004 04:05pm | #6

   Sounds like Ipe, a South American wood being used for a lot of high end decks.  Very heavy and hard, feels like metal.

   John W.

2. 
   eddiefromAustralia | Mar 30, 2004 10:18am | #4

   Hi Unisaw,

   See if you can find it here (350 sections of wood with ID):

   http://www.lib.ncsu.edu/archives/forestry/hough/index.html

   Rays this prominent are typically in true Oaks, Plane/Sycamore and our Casuarinas/Grevilleas.

   These are my first thoughts - I've been wrong before and will be again.

   ps:  regarding the 30x viewing, are the cells uniformly sized and square (=gymnosperm = conifer = softwood), or are they uneven and clear capillary vessels/pores visible (=angiosperm = hardwood)

   The answer to this one won't help me any, as I think that rays this prominent are only visible in hardwoods, but it will help others such as Jon Arno or others that may know the answer.

1. 
   jjf | Mar 30, 2004 03:11pm | #5

   With this being at 11X the cell lumens should be big enoung to drive a truck through if it is redwood.  And the specific gravity is way too high.  With the large rays and the uneven size cells It looks like a diffuse porous hardwood.

3. 
   jonsherryl | Mar 30, 2004 09:21pm | #9

   Unisaw, the wood in your photo appears to be a softwood (gymnosperm) species. Although the surface is a little cluttered with debris, I can't spot any resin canals...meaning it appears to be one of the non-resinous species, which would exclude the pines, spruces, larches and Douglas-fir. If the color in the photo is remotely accurate, my first guess would be that it is redwood, based on the wood's apparently fine texture and rather narrow (sharp) earlywood band...what you are referring to as the annual ring. The balance of the cells in the growth increment are extremely uniform in size and texture, meaning they show very little variation in tracheid wall thickness throughout the growing season.

   As for your more basic question; how do you determine whether a wood is a hardwood (angiosperm) or a softwood (gymnosperm)?...the glib answer is that softwoods do not contain vessels, while hardwoods do. There are a few botanical exceptions to this rule, but they do not involve any significant timber species. However, from the practical point of view, it can sometimes get a little confusing when trying to determine whether a pore-like structure is actually a vessel or just a resin canal. On close examination of the end grain, a vessel has a wall, while a resin canal is simply a cavity created between surrounding vascular tissue...as if the surrounding cells have been crushed to make room for the canal. Also, resin canals in softwoods are typically far less plentiful than are the vessels in hardwoods.

   Sometimes exremely fine textured hardwoods can appear to be softwoods, simply because the structure is so fine and uniform that it is difficult to see any difference between the cross section of the fiber cells and the vessels...at least at hand lens magnification (anything under 20X). In this case, the best clue to fall back on is the anatomical complexity of the wood. Even extremely fine textured and exceptionally diffuse-porous hardwoods typically reveal some asymmetry...either in the form of progressively smaller pore diameters as the growing season advances...or the pores may tend to cluster in some discontinuous pattern; tangential or radial chains, often surrounded by non vascular tissue (parenchyma). By contrast, the anatomy of a softwood appears far less complex and more geometrically ordered. The vascular cells (tracheids) tend to line up in neat radial rows and are typically square in cross section.

   As for density, I'm unaware of any softwoods (at least no commercially important species) with average, ovendry specific gravities approaching 1.00. In fact, our Southern Yellow Pines are among the densest in the world and they range between 0.47 and 0.54. If the wood appears heavier than that, there must be another reason, either high moisture content or something else introduced into the wood. 

   
   

   ---

   Edited 3/30/2004 2:30 pm ET by Jon Arno

   
   

   ---

   Edited 3/30/2004 10:27 pm ET by Jon Arno

1. 
   suntoad | Mar 31, 2004 02:23am | #11

   Good observations, Jon..

   Can you give me some insight on what I may have? What I see in my sample as possible pores appear as light colored flecks in the endgrain--almost looks like ray fleck in the tangential surfaces of maple or beech. Only it's in the endgrain. They extend along the flatsawn surface as long..well, pores..like oak, except very, very small. And if they are pores, they're diffuse. The wood is deep reddish-purplish brown and has a density over 1.00. My sample has a moisture content of less than 4%, so it's not a false density reading. And it's HARD. What is it?

2. 
   jjhamer | Mar 31, 2004 03:44am | #13

   Thanks for the information.

    

   Sorry about the cross section being cluttered with debris.  I thought I had the wood processing and slicing steps down, but I still need to do a lot of work.  I did find today that slicing a smaller cross section (about 3/16”) helps a lot.  I will also change razor blades more often.  If you don’t mind I’ll post another sample of a different wood as this process continues.

    

   The color balance should be pretty close.  If anything I add saturation to exaggerate the overall color tones.

    

   I first thought that the hardwood vs. softwood decision would be first, and fairly easy, but it seems that it is anything but easy.   I will spend more time on the hardwood vs. softwood decision.

    

   I have not calculated density on wood yet.  I will try the “floatation method” in the next several weeks and see what I get.

    

   This one gets labeled and saved as “Redwood”

    

   Edited 3/30/2004 9:38 pm ET by Unisaw

4. 
   jjhamer | Apr 01, 2004 02:56am | #15

   So far the biggest challenge I’m having is getting the wood sliced properly for viewing under magnification.  Most samples are too cluttered with debris to see properly.  I will try soaking in boiling water next.  I’ve also opened some new razor blades.  If anybody has any suggestions on getting the wood prepared for viewing, I would appreciate any info you may have.

    

   Ok here’s the process to Identify Wood so far on a new sample:

    

   1.  Description & History:  This sample is cut from a 26’ 2x8 ceiling joist. It was purchased as Douglas-Fir.  Codes require that the ceiling joists are Doug-Fir and not SPF.  (spruce-pine-fir)  The goal is to confirm that this is Douglas-Fir

   2.  Moisture content: 8%; Density: Not tested yet.  Sample floats (still getting testing system set up)

   3.  Color – looks like pine

   4.  Smell: not cedar or oak.  (smells like framing lumber!) 

    

   

   4. Larger photo with ruler, showing cross section (top) and radial (front) planes

    

   

   6.  Cross section showing early and latewood banding.  Banding is abrupt.

    

    

   7.  Cross section at about 10x.  (Hopefully this is labeled correctly, sorry for the lack of detail, I’m still working on proper wood preparation)   Resin canals are small.  Resin canals in Tangential groups can be seen right below arrow.  Latewood cells are tighter than earlywood. 

    

   Conclusion: Douglas-Fir.

   Reasons:  Cross section looks like book samples.  Resin canels in groups are a feature of doug-fir.

    

    

   This is getting easier and I'm having fun, but this was an easy wood to identify.  Let me know if the photo file sizes are too big, they seem ok on my computer and modem in Chicago.

      

   Any help with wood preparation would also be appreciated.

    

1. 
   jonsherryl | Apr 01, 2004 04:24am | #16

   I'm pretty sure you've got this one right, Unisaw. A few other clues that will usually allow you to separate Doug-fir from other members of the pine family include the following:

   Scent: Douglas-fir has a characteristic odor that I would descrbe as "less sweet" than that of any of the true pines (Pinus). The spruces (Picea) also have a harsher, less sweat scent, but it's totally different than that of Douglas-fir. If the samples are fresh, with experience, you'll be able to smell your way through separating species in these three genera.

   Color is also one of the better clues, if the sample is cut from mature heartwood. Douglas-fir has a much darker and more orange-tan color than do any of the pines or spruces. The heartwood of southern heart pine (AKA longleaf, P. Palustris) and also that of the western Jeffrey pine (AKA "apple" pine, P. jeffreyi) do typically develop a rather dark heartwood, but the color leans more toward pinkish red, as opposed  to orange...and both of these timbers have that "sweeter" pine scent. In fact, Jeffrey pine does actually have an almost fruity, apple-like scent that makes it very pleasant to work with. 

   While douglas-fir is a resinous species, it tends to have fewer and smaller resin canals than do the pines, spruces or larches. Also, the resin canals, especially in old growth (slow grown) material, tend to form mostly along the annual rings and are sometimes so small they're hard to detect.

   And finally, on the end grain the annual rings in Douglas-fir tend to waver. In other words, they occasionally dip toward the pith of the tree, creating a little "valley" and this indentation typically repeats itself from ring to ring along a radial axis. This feature sometimes appears in other members of the pine (Pinaceae) family, but not as consistently as in Douglas-fir. In fact, if you look closely at your photos, one of the shots illustrates this feature.

   ...By the way  Unisaw, those are getting to be downright handsome photos you're posting. And don't sweat a little debris...it's not a serious breach of etiquette. If some crumbs get in the way, just lick 'em off. Moistening the end grain helps to improve contrast and often gives you a better view of the anatomy, anyway. :O)    

   Edited 3/31/2004 10:33 pm ET by Jon Arno

2. 
   UncleDunc | Apr 01, 2004 05:46am | #17

   That one's easy. What you have there is a slice of salmon.

   I really like your pictures. Large, bright, focused, well composed, etc. But people with dialup access might prefer to be able to choose whether or not to spend the time it takes to download them.

1. 
   jjhamer | Apr 01, 2004 06:16am | #18

   No I don't think it is salmon, although my nose skills are bad, I think I would have detected salmon. :)

   Sorry about the sizes.  The last set of pictures were between 100-125kb each.  Looks like about 20 seconds each to view on a 56k line.  

   In the future I will only post picts directly that are under 75kb.  Hopefully that will be ok. 

   I prefer seeing the picture embedded in the post, and in Chicago we have the luxury of fast connection speeds, I have forgotten what its like to wait for pictures to download.

   Edited 3/31/2004 11:55 pm ET by Unisaw

3. 
   jjhamer | Apr 02, 2004 03:39pm | #19

   This post is on wood sample preparation.  By accident I found a piece of red oak that has the Cross Section, Radial Section and Tangent Sections perpendicular to each other.  Suddenly all the features stand out much better.   Many of my samples are cut in strange planes, so they will have to be changed.  For viewing and identification it is important to get these these planes right.     

   View Image            View Image      View Image

   This sample was boiled in water for about 30 minutes and cut with a new razor blade.  Softening the wood first makes a big difference in clarity. 

   Pretty cool to see the ray flecks on the radial section.  I'm also getting a better understanding about the nature of plain sawn and quarter sawn wood.  Hopefully I have everything labeled correctly, thanks all for your help, I'm learning a lot.

   For larger photos CLICK HERE

    

    

   Edited 4/2/2004 8:45 am ET by Unisaw