I’m hoping someone can help. I’m in the middle of a large project, with several raised panels. The largest is 36″ x 41″, and is the centerpiece over a fireplace mantel. I’m using a shaper, with a brand new Freeborn 3 wing cutter. I’ve already raised all the other panels with success, so I know it’s not the cutter. The wood is hard maple.
The problem:
I raised the end grain sides first. No problem. When I raised one side of the long grain, I was getting tear out. When I got to the corner, a 3″ long x 3/4″ wide chunk ripped off the panel. This panel is made of 6 book matched panels which were resawn, and is from the same tree as the rest of the project, so the color is perfect. I can easily cut the 3/4″ off the side and raise again, as I can easily spread the width into the stiles. However, what do I do to ensure that the same tear out does not occur again.
I have the cutter with carbide down, so the panel rides face up. My shaper is reversible, but I don’t see how it matters if I reverse the cutter, reverse the direction of spin, and run the panel face down. The issue still exists.
HELP!!! What can I do to avoid this happening again. Losing this panel, which is the centerpiece of the whole project, would be devastating.
Thanks,
Jeff
Let me know if pics would help.
Replies
It sounds like you're hitting some very short grain liable to break out as you exit the cut on the one edge.
You could try sneaking up on the final cut so that you aren't putting so much strain on the wood.
Also you might try wetting the wood with water or white (mineral) spirits on the final sneak up cut. This can soften the wood fibres a bit which can help. Slainte.
RJFurniture
Sgian, and to all who posted:
First of all, thanks for your help. This has ruined my day.
I am definately working against the grain, and with short grain. Oddly, the piece didn't tear out on the cross grain cut, but on the long grain cut. The 6 pieces are all bookmatched, so the left side is with the grain, while the right side has to be against the grain. Due to the size of the panel, I was not trying to raise the panel in one pass. Actually, I planned on 3 passes. All the smaller panels were raised in one pass, as they were dead flat, and easier to handle, and only 11 inches wide.
If I turn the cutter over, and raise the panel 'good face down', doesn't this mean that I need to feed from the opposite direction, which would be 'backwards' from the normal feed side. I WILL NOT try this until I hear from you guys back, as I do not wish to wear this panel for christmas, or the rest of my life for that matter.
If I make a zero clearance auxiliary fence, do I need it on both sides or just the infeed side. Right now, I'm using the regular split fence, with a shop made very large feather board right in front of the cutterhead on the infeed side. It's large enough and wide enough to also protect me.
This shaper is new to me. I've always raised panels on the router table, and decided to purchase the shaper to be able to make larger profiles not available with router bits. The customer absolutely loved the sample, and there is no way I can change it now. I showed here 5 different raised panel samples, 3 done on the shaper, 2 on the router. (bits and cutterheads that I already own.) She came back to me with the profile which Freeborn offered, off their website, and offered to pay for the cutterhead as an extra just to get it. I can't turn her down now! Besides, I'm sure that it can be done correctly with a few pointers from those of you in the KNOW! It's Murphy's Law that out of 19 raised panels for this job, it's the largest one that took the longest to make (resawing, etc...) and the last one to run, that I'm having all the trouble with.
Thanks,
Jeff
Edited 5/22/2005 12:33 pm ET by JHeath
"This has ruined my day"- Absolutely no reason to let that happen- s#t happens, so glue on another strip and re-machine.
But next time , since your spindle is easily reversible, run with cutter below- otherwise you really could ruin your day!
mookaroid
Over the years, I've learned to take all the necessary precautions to avoid s$%^ like this happening. I know it's inevitable, but I've been locked into a great groove in the shop lately, "in the zone" so to speak, and it just ticks me off that I overlooked the grain issue on this panel.
Even though I'm new to shapers, the application of cutters and grain is still the same. I guess I just wasn't thinking, and I'm grateful that I didn't get hurt. When that chunk came off, it went wizzing past me at great speed, scratching my arm just a little. Whewwwwwwwwwwwwwww!
Jeff
When a problem, like this, happens on a larger shaper it's a wake up call because it happens SO FAST, and you do not even have time to react before it's all over and you just wonder if YOU are ok or if you are hurt. Especially if for small shop reasons you do not have a power feed and that problem occurs while your hands are touching the work or actually holding it. You may rightly say one surest way to be taught a lesson is to have that close call and walk away unscathed....you'll definitely be "phased" and SHOCKED and even shaking (when using a big knife), but you are lucky that you will usually (and I hope) not let it happen again. ~Z~
zorro
You said what I was thinking for the last 24 hours. Everyone here has been helpful with their advice on how to solve my problem with the panel, but I haven't been able to get over how lucky I was for not getting hurt or maimed.
Tomorrow, I'm ordering a power feeder. As far away as my hands were away from the cutterhead, they weren't far enough for my liking.
I've recently invested over $60,000, not including my labor, in a new shop. I've easily got over $50,000 invested in tools. My hands are priceless to me. What's another $1000.00 or so.
Thanks,
Jeff
Everyone has given you top notch advice, and your decision to purchase a power feed is excellent. I'm only writing to make sure you understand the application of the false fence, which is a good process even with a feeder, as it makes sure that no part of the piece inadvertently gets pulled too far into the cutter, spoiling the profile. Use a piece of 3/8" to 1/2" thick mdf or pine, or similar wood, cut at least 3" to 4" high by about the length of your total fence. Pull the fence forward of the cutter to enable the false fence to be clamped or screwed to your fence, centered over the cutter openning. (Move the fence halves far enough apart first to make sure the cutter doesn't cut into them, too.) Once it is securely fastened, turn on the shaper and slowly move the fence back, allowing the cutter to slice into the false fence until it is projecting the correct distance in front of the fence (you may have to turn off the shaper a few times as you progress to check this measurement - it's safer to slowly sneak up on this.) This tends to be a noisy, dusty procedure, so be prepared. Once I get to the proper fence position, I often go just a 1/32" farther and then retract the fence to its correct position, in order to prevent the cutter from continuously rubbing against the false fence. This should help remove some of the terror from the shaping process.
False-fencing....THAT should have been my number four. And TERROR is a great word. Good advice. ~Z~
Edited 5/22/2005 4:00 pm ET by zorro
Edited 5/22/2005 4:20 pm ET by zorro
Peter
Thanks. I'm assuming that I need to cut out the area where the bearing is, as it will not cut through the mdf.
Jeff
Correct, or simply remove the bearing. It's really only necessary when shaping an arch-top or similar panel.
Right on!! ~Z~
A note on the powerfeed....We used a $1000 (basically) HOLZER (my spelling may be wrong on this). It had the three wheels and was a 1HP. When you set it up they will do a wonderful job of "handling" the product, on the shaper and on the tablesaw when we did a bunch of ripping. Things that happened when we used it are:
1. The forces are so strong on the wheels and if you do not tighten up ALL of your powerfeed adjustments and mounting column handles, the wheels will "walk" the machine right into your cutters, luckily we saw what was happening and only some rubber and a bit of the aluminum wheel hub were cut...we were still able to use it like that, but it could have been worse. Use a dead-blow to "tweak" tighten up the ones that this may occur, but do NOT bend things (you know what I mean here). One worst spot is the main vertical column that the machine's horizontal arm adjusts up and down on.
2. On raised panels on a shaper, those knives require a lot of "push" into the fence and also "pushing" angling of the wheels to keep some jobs against the fencing.....you'll get the feel of what is needed to "hold" things along where they should run.
3. Use a machine surface "lubricator" to make everything slide along well and things will be great. We used a can of Minwax Finishing Wax. We just kept a rag in that can....and it will not mess up any finishing you will be doing to any pieces....even with lacquers. The stuff is cheap and wonderful and that can will last a very long time. Just do a good rub down with the stuff the very fist time to your surfaces and then after that all you need to do is hit it a little bit to be ready for more running and when things just start to feel "draggy". We use this stuff on everything that slides on anything else, router bottoms, planes, circular saws,....everything that moves....when you try it you WILL be hooked.....forget about all the other expensive ones, (in my book anyway).
You will be VERY happy using a powerfeed....like nite and day in the ease of use. You will have to drill and tap four holes into your shaper and tablesaw to mount it to them. Don't be shy to modify a tool if it will work easier and make your job easier, just BE SURE to STAY SAFE. Machines can be replaced with another one....your body will not grow new parts. Have fun. I've had things TORN LIKE A BULLET out of my hands when those shaper knives grab something and panel raising is the worst offender...those huge knives. No time to react...it's a "donedeal" and you have a hard time going back to that machine till your jitters can settle down again, about 10-30 minutes usually....IT'LL SHAKE YOU UP! That machine EARNS your respect, unless someone has told you their war stories, happy shaping. ~z~
Edited 5/22/2005 4:11 pm ET by zorro
Edited 5/22/2005 4:14 pm ET by zorro
Edited 5/22/2005 8:03 pm ET by zorro
zorro
I've been using Johnson's Paste Wax for years with terrific, slippery results.
Thanks
Jeff
zorro
Do you think I really need a powerfeeder as large as 1 hp? I will not be using it every day, occasional use only. Can I successfully use a smaller one, or is 1 hp the way to go.
I'm also starting a new thread asking this question, but I thought I'd ask you first, since you've been so helpful.
Thanks,
Jeff
jeff, you said you were "new" at spindle moulding- the more you work that machine the more you will see how versatile it is. I have some points for you to think about, not necessarily in order of importance or sequence:-
The False Fence is a good thing but it has the disadvantage of reducing the width of cut , which may spoil the profile of some mouldings produced by solid profile cutters. So one should use the thinnest possible material- I use 6mm ply,preferably 5 ply for strength.
However, and not to labour at this point too much, if you run the cutter below then the false fence is not critical unless you are paranoid about making that gap as small as possible.
There is another way to lessen the gap- in fact you can halve it- you can use a rubbing collar of suitable diameter. The workpiece runs on the first half of the fence and has a very small distance to go before it contacts the collar, then abit more onto the second fence. I use this all the time and have never had any frights, encounters of the third kind etc. I always keep ball bearings of 1" and 30mm bore as they make excellent collars, and for "funny" sizes I just turn them as required on my metal lathe.
Then there is the world of slotted collars and grinding your own profiles....
The Automatic Feeder- is on my list of things I would much like to have but don't actually need. It really comes into it's own when you have a large number of pieces to run. Be sure to get one of reasonable horse power-at least 1 hp and the more wheels the better.If you have a biggish surfacer, er jointer, then the AF works well on this too, also on the table saw.
Lastly, I have seen some references in previous postings about "things flying out of the hands etc" when spindle moulding- well the rule is simple- you should not be relying on your fingers and hand grip to feed the spindle- S*Tte there is 3 horse or more there at scary speed plus some other physics so I always use a heavy pusher block with a lip on the back and a good handle, so there is no way that things can reverse direction etc-i.e the workpiece only goes in the direction of feed.Also, if there is a chance of break out then I will make a pusher block for the job_ it will have the same moulding to support the work.
You may well decide to get the ultimate spindle- one with a sliding table , as found in production shops....
Anyway, I don't want to over do this subject.
Edited 5/23/2005 5:33 am ET by mookaroid
Mookaroid
Thanks for all the tips. Mine does have a sliding table, and is 4 hp. I'm very happy with the machine, I just need to get a little more comfortable with it.
Jeff
I have only worked with this size, so I can't say what will substitute if anything else will work....they rather large and log feeds with more wheels and there are some smaller ones. I just don't know....sorry. The 1 hp seems like the smallest, yet hefty feed in my mind, but I have only this experience. Tom
only other thing I can think of is your cutter may need a hone to bring back its efficiency...
If this is only happening at the corner, would it help to use a sacraficial board profiled to exactly match the end grain moulding...?? idea is to give the corner more support...
Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Try using some kind of backer or glue an additional piece on the edge and rip it off after you finish the shaping for that side. Or try to take several smaller light passes. I would probably try the backer or some type of sacrificial push block. However if it is squirrely grain then try to do as Sgian suggested with wetting the piece.
J.P.
Jeff, I like to run the shaper with the big cutter on the underside, so the panel is face down. The reason is that if for some reason ; like a large panes should tip up; rather than raising into the cutter and ruining the work, it moves away from the cutter, and merely has to be run again to get rid of the lump left if it should raise up.
Another good reason to have the cutter on the bottom is that if your hand should slip while feeding, there would not be any peaces large enough for re-constructive surgery. I hope you are using some kind of guard around the cutter.
There may have been a check in the wood along the line where the split off.
When I have a panel as large as you have described, I usually miter solid wood around an MDF substrate, and veneer that before raising the edge. There will not be any movement relative to changing humidity that way.
If perfect humidity control is not maintained in the final atmosphere of this panel, there will likely be some pretty large changes in the width due to swelling or shrinkage.
It seems like I remember you making reference to Chicago. If that is correct, I believe the EMC for that area is 6 -8%. I would sure meter it to make sure, and it would be a good idea to pre-finish the edges of this panel before assembling the frame around it.
rootburl
I've definately planned for movement, allowing 1/2" extra for expansion. The cutter head from Freeborn has a very long 'tongue', making this planning easy. Also, as always, I'll be finishing both sides of all the panels before installing them in their frames. I've always done it this way, and have never had one blow apart on me. I've made projects with panels this size before, and never experienced this problem with blow out. They were in much more forgiving woods, though. Cherry and Mahogany. I'm not a real big fan of Maple, from a working stand point, but the grain on this wood is beautiful.
As I asked Sgian, and I'll ask you, too. If I turn the cutterhead over, and raise the panel good side down, I'm assuming that I'll need to reverse the direction of the spindle. Also, does this mean that I need to feed the panel from the 'opposite' direction as normal? Meaning, left to right, instead of right to left? I WILL NOT attempt this until hearing back from you, so don't call the paramedics.
Thanks for all your help.
Jeff
Jeff, Yes you will need to reverse the direction with the cutter on the bottom and feed from the opposite direction. If this didn't have any effect on your problem though, and you re down to only running one side to get finished, I would just leave it till next time you set up to run raised panels.As for fixing your bad edge. I would consider sawing off and gluing back a strip just under the width of the raised panel edge. That way the face of the panel goes unchanged, and no one but you will notice the different wood along the raised panel edge. Otherwise, just plane the little split off part straight, and glue on a little replacement part, and dress it down.Someone above also suggested having a continuous fence to bridge the gap between the fence sides. I do that also, and usually run the front and back profile all at the same time. It is kinda like having a zero clearance insert for you TS, It gives support right up to the cutting edge which can counter the tendency for splintering off, or accidentally rocking into the gap with any small sizes.
rootburl
Thanks again for your speedy reply. I'm going to apply all your tips later on today. I'll let you know how it goes, hopefully with success.
I cut and milled this tree myself about 4 years ago, and flitched the logs with the sole purpose of being able to bookmatch several panels in a large project. The wood from this tree is some of the best I've seen. It's loaded with birdseye and curl. The project is a 17' x 35' library with a fireplace mantel in the middle of one wall. The panels are for over the mantel, as well as for all the cabinet doors below the shelves. The customer lives in a high end neighborhood where a large percentage of my work, all referral, comes from. Needless to say, I'm extremely anxious about it turning out perfect, as I don't have enough wood left to create an entire new panel with the bookmatched results of this one, which I now have named "pain in the A$$ panel!"
The first time I glued it all together, it warped like a banana peel. Luckily, I left it 1" thick finished, just in case I had this problem. I let it sit for about a month, and it flattened out pretty close. I ripped it in half, ran both halves through the drum sander, now it's pretty good, at 3/4".
Thanks again.
Jeff
Jeff
You might try setting up a zero clearance fence. I've had similar problems on some of our indiginous species & this has tended to reduce tearout a lot. I use scrap 3/8" or 1/2" MDF cut to the appropriate height & at least the length of the fence, feed into the cutters on the infeed side (& a corresponding piece on the out feed) to provide a backing & zero clearance. As the MDF fence is sacraficial I just clamp them to the machines fence rather than muck around with screws.
Don
Hello Jeff,
It does sound as if this problem was a once-off- possibly there wasa split which you did not notice. I suggest you merely glue a new piece on and take it in two passes, to be on the safe side.
Also , why are you doing it the dangerous way? The panel should be face down so the cutter is covered and you can also bear down better on it-preferably with a pusher block (heavy)and ,er, not alooomineeoum. Also you cannot overcut this way. and for volume jobs it is easier to rig hold down fences etc.
If you do not get the right answers send us some pictures.
Unfortunately, this is one of those cases in which you don't get such ease of cut and smooth surface compared to a sharp high speed steel cutter- but there are trade offs.
Rootburl is correct about running the bit under the panel, panel face down. Any little mis-cue while feeding with the cutter on top will result in a deeper cut. This may not be your problem but just having that cutter on top increases the possibility of you contacting it.
I also agree on the issue of panel movement in that wide a size. If you are going to make it out of solid wood, you will need to allow it to move at least 1/2". Finishing both sides will help but there's always the possibility that it will warp or split.
Taking small cuts, going slow and wetting the area is about all you can do. If you are cutting against the grain, these measures may not help. This is one of those times that, reversing the shaper and flipping the cutter, may get better results.
Once you have made a start raising all edges, a backer board won't do anything unless you make it to fit the previous cut in a mirror image. Highly recommended for cross grain cuts whenever practical.
The single thing that contributes to blow out for me is running against the grain. It can be one of the more confusing things about making raised panels or any other piece that gets shaped, that is, thinking ahead about how the piece will enter the shaper, router, jointer, plane, etc. You can slightly improve your outcome with figured lumber by running with the dominant grain direction. I think, determining grain direction is one of the most important parts of woodworking, with hand or power tools. People don't talk about it that much but it means the difference between a clean shave or a torn and chipped surface.
Problems raising a panel..
I got a fork lift.. Good fer about 2000 LBS!
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