Replies

1. 
   9619 | Jan 06, 2009 01:05am | #1

   d.
   Others will give you specifics. I would not have recommended the Groz planes nor the new Stanleys. My recommendation would be a Lie Nielsen or a Lee Valley. Both make great planes which are "almost" ready to go, out of the box. My experience is with Lie Nielsen, but I have heard nothing but good about Lee Valley.

   Personally, if I were going to get a "cheaper" plane, I would get an old Stanley that was in fairly good shape and fettle it, rather than get a new Groz. I know that you already have the plane. I don't know if you have sufficient capital to just chuck the Groz and buy an LN or a LV. If you do, my advice (which is worth all that you paid for it) would be to get the LN or LV. If you really want to go through the trouble of trying to get the Groz ready for real use, you will get some good exercise.

   I hope you don't take my words badly. It is only unpaid advice. If you tell me which type of advice you'd like to hear, I will give that to you. I want you to be happy. :-)

   Mel

   PS I thought of another way. Is there a woodworkers club near you. If so, join. And ask if anyone has a good "user" jack plane that they want to sell (one that is fully fettled). It is always a good idea to join a local woodworkers club. A GREAT WAY TO LEARN, and to meet people who can help with such problems.

   Measure your output in smiles per board foot. 

2. 
   stevemorris | Jan 06, 2009 01:33am | #2

   did you keep the receipt? get your money back and go to a flea market/ebay what ever and find a good elderly stanley or millers falls plane

   those new planes mostly made in india are total garbage, they sell them everywhere

   sorry to burst your bubble, but a decent user plane off ebay will cost the same, require a minor tuneup and maybe a new iron, your new indian copy will require major machining to get it right

   i have a few elderly stanleys and a millers falls smoother, and they all required very minor cleanup, some honing, and maybe a new or repaired tote.  the most expensive was the miilers falls smoother at 20 bucks

   woodcraft should be ashamed to sell those things, homedepot or sears maybe

   after all a leevalley or leeneilson costs so much for a reason

1. 
   9619 | Jan 06, 2009 01:41am | #3

   Steve,
   I work part time at a Woodcraft store, and they sell the Groz planes. I have suggested to the manager that these planes are not of "sufficiently good quality". I don't recommend them. I recommend the Lie Nielsen planes that we sell. We don't sell Lee Valley for some reason.BUT, we seem to sell a lot of the Groz planes. Folks come in and like the price. When I try to tell them that a $400 plane will work much better, some look at me as I am crazy. (( They may be right ;-) )) There are folks who have one simple job that they want to do with a plane, and don't even want to sharpen it. Some folks look astonished when I tell them that these things have to be sharpened before use, and later too! NO JOKE. For such people, a LV or a LN would be a waste. So I guess there is room for the Groz plane. It does fit a niche. A guy came in today and bought six Pfeil carving gouges. He asked if I had a piece of wood that he could test them on to see if they are sharp enough to carve with. I told him that they will need to be honed often. He said that he sends them out to be sharpened. I offered to teach him how to sharpen the gouges at no charge.We live in an interesting world. Not everyone is as smart or as knowledgeable as you!MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot. 

1. 
   stevemorris | Jan 06, 2009 01:52am | #4

   well grox planes are not suitable for good woodworking, and to sell them as such is immoral, the user will be so frustrated that he'll give up the endeavor as i know you are aware

   new woodworkers also need to know that sharpening hand tools is a regular part of woodworking, weather its a chisel or a plane as im sure you also know

   im no expert on handtools by any means, but tuning and sharpening a handplane is a basic woodworking skill that we all should know, after all, with the stuff you and leevalley sell these days its easy

   if a customer cant afford a new LV or LN handplane, his best bet is a good user from stanley or millersfalls, then a good iron, a honing setup which he'll need anyway and a couple of hours work

2. 
   Buster2000 | Jan 06, 2009 02:59am | #5

   He said that he sends them out to be sharpened.

   Only suckers waste their own time sharpening...  I prefer to build furniture, not fettle with tools...  :)

1. 
   stevemorris | Jan 06, 2009 04:06am | #7

   sorry buster i have to disagree, sharpening hand tools is a basic and very rewarding skill to every woodworker

   plane blades, chisels, scrapers and especially lathe tools need regular honing

   power tool blades maybe not, but hand tools absolutely

1. 
   philip | Jan 06, 2009 04:55am | #8

   Steve,
   Buster is either joking or stirring.....Or maybe is he just dropped in from outer space.Philip Marcou

2. 
   stevemorris | Jan 06, 2009 05:25am | #9

   i sure hope so!!

3. 
   Buster2000 | Jan 06, 2009 07:13am | #13

   Philip,Not outer space... Canada.I assure you I'm just joking. Sharpening is a basic skill. Not my favorite way to pass the time in my shop, but I found a way to make it more enjoyable... Beer. When I've got a bunch to do I take the stones out to the back deck and go to town.I do admit there was a high school student wandering around last year asking if we had any odd jobs that needed to be done... I was very tempted to get him to flatten the backs of my el-cheapo Craftsman chisels...Mels comments reflected some of the build your own bench threads out there... I though it might be humorous... and for the record I added a smiley...Buster

4. 
   Thorvald | Jan 06, 2009 08:22am | #14

   Beer does help sometimes, but I have to say that there's a certain satisfaction in sharpening once you learn to do the job properly and quickly.  I started with knives when I was a kid - had some weird fascination that has never left me.  I still enjoy it in the shop.  Now I have a reputation that provides me with a pile of work the first night out at hunting camp.  After chow, all the guys throw their knives at me.  It's either my skill with a stone or my bad jokes - hard to say which with our gang.  Bottom line is, it pays to be able to produce the right edge whether you're cutting dovetails or dressing a moose (they aren't the same, by the way).

   Verne

    

5. 
   Buster2000 | Jan 06, 2009 07:07am | #11

   I call scary sharp geek on you!I bet you're one of those build your own bench guys too...Buster

6. 
   stevemorris | Jan 06, 2009 01:38pm | #19

   buster,

   yeah actually i did build my own bench!!

2. 
   9619 | Jan 06, 2009 05:36am | #10

   Buster,
   "Only suckers waste their own time sharpening... I prefer to build furniture, not fettle with tools... :)"You are a true humorist. I like your style.
   I will never sharpen again. I am thinking of getting a nice young blond girl from Sweden as an "au pair" to take care of my sharpening needs, instead of taking care of kids.MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot. 

2. 
   WillGeorge | Jan 06, 2009 06:57pm | #22

   Steve.. No fight here... OK?

   I have two 'made in India are total garbage' that I purchased a few years ago. Three, two? I forget exactly because I do not keep track of time. I'm usually surprised when a family member tells me I forgot their birthday.

   I have the low-angle bevel up and the little block plane. Both work well. Yes they required some work but nothing worse than some old Stanley/Baliey's I have.

   Nothing to be proud of or put on display but they work for me. Shame on you Woodcraft for selling me a reasonably priced plane that I took home and with a little work I used the next day. As a note, the irons take and hold a good edge.

   They are far from perfect but very useable. My tarnished 2 cents. :>)

   EDIT:

   I forgot to mention that I had the same problem as the original poster with my old Stanley/Bailey #4. Nothing I tried corrected the problem until I found a different cap iron. The slot in the cap iron was a 'tad' closer to the working end.

   Edited 1/6/2009 11:08 am by WillGeorge

1. 
   davcefai | Jan 06, 2009 08:25pm | #24

   I subscribe to the concept of "good enough". So if the grinding works I'll tune up the plane and it should be good enough.Quality is "value for money" and "fitness for purpose". Out of curiosity I googled for Holtey Planes this morning. I have no doubt that "fitness for use" is total but at over $7000 I'm not sure of the "value for money" aspect. Mind you, if i did have $7000 for a plane then..... :-)

1. 
   davcefai | Jan 06, 2009 11:03pm | #25

   Well, I think I've sorted it.P1.JPG shows the Stanley and Groz cap irons side by side. The slot for the yoke is lower in the Groz and this is the root of the problem.P2.JPG shows the assembled blades. The Groz has room for trimming. I ground off the tip of the iron (~0.8mm) and then ground the contact area to bring the tip back to (almost) a point.I then lapped the contact area using a 180 grit diamond stone (P3.JPG). The stone was raised to achieve the correct angle. I aimed to concentrate the contact area nearer the tip.Finally I used the grindstone again to ease the profile of the Chipbreaker and then polished the profile with a diamond file. Anyone doing this would be well advised to ink the metal in this and the previous step to check where you are removing metal. (You might be surprised!)P4.JPG shows the end result. I can now set the chipbreaker 2mm back from the edge and have the blade fully retracted. It takes about 1/3 of a turn to start cutting.

   
1. 
   WillGeorge | Jan 07, 2009 02:17pm | #26

   Good for you my friend.

   A job well done! I'd bet you even had (at least a little) fun doing it. The reward was that your time accomplished something and you may now want to take up blacksmithing.

   But then again that time could have been used 'cutting sticks'...

   Info please on what you called a diamond file.

   Edited 1/7/2009 6:20 am by WillGeorge

2. 
   davcefai | Jan 07, 2009 05:36pm | #27

   Thank you for the kind words. You bet I had fun! It's why I do these things in the first place.Diamond File: Specifically the mini sharp as shown here: http://www.dmtsharp.com/products/other.htmIt looks like the stone in my photo but smaller and with a handle.

3. 
   Napie | Jan 06, 2009 03:08am | #6

   Gotta go with everyone else, go find an old Stanley and have at it, you'll be a lot further ahead.

4. 
   Floss | Jan 06, 2009 07:09am | #12

   Are you sure you have the plane, blade and cap iron assembled properly?

   Have you tried adjusting the frog?

   A simple fix, assuming the above have been addressed, would be to file a bit off the leading edge of the cap iron. Then re-hone the cap and your off.

   F.

1. 
   davcefai | Jan 06, 2009 08:46am | #16

   Floss,Thanks for the only constructive reply.The Groz is the best I can do in Malta. The quality is not impressive but, literally, that is all there is.Stanley only sell a 10" (?) plane and it looks like rubbish. Rolson sell a 10" and a Block plane. Only Groz are available in a range.Second hand metal planes are not often on sale and when then are it is Stanley 10" (of which I have 2).I am quite happy to consider a new plane as a "kit of parts" and if I keep the Groz I will work on it to bring it up to scratch. I've just finished making over a low angle Block Plane and the improved performance is impressive ( to me at least! ).I have thought of "moving" the hole in the cap iron but am afraid that the welding heat will adversely affect the characteristics of the iron (I have easy access to specialised engineering facilities). Your suggestion of filing the iron is a good one and I will look at it. Otherwise it looks like waiting for the next consignment of planes to arrive - which may take some time :-)

1. 
   Tony Z | Jan 06, 2009 05:45pm | #20

   I had a LN chipbreaker pared with a LN blade in a #4 Bailey that I had a similar problem with.  I milled the slot longer and brazed a piece of metal in the adjuster slot to fill in where needed, with no adverse effects at all.

   If after going through the other suggested things to try and none help, milling the slot longer and brazing a piece of metal may help.  If it were the blade instead of the chip breaker, you could cause some damage with too much heat, but I would not be overly concerned about the chip breaker.

   Good luck!

   T.Z.

2. 
   Floss | Jan 06, 2009 06:05pm | #21

   Have you tried the stanley cap iron on the groz?I think you will be fine once the cap is fitted properly. No need to change the hole. Just some light work with a file.By the time you finish posting here you probably could have had that plane tuned up.Good luck.F.

1. 
   davcefai | Jan 06, 2009 08:21pm | #23

   I have tried the Stanley cap on the Groz. Same problem. I think that Groz have:1. Put the yoke a little bit too far down on the frog.
   2. Drilled the cap the same distance from the chipbreaker as Stanley did.
   3. Made the chipbreaker longer than Stanleys.Consequently grinding the Chipbreaker will compensate for (1) above.When I finish this mug of post-commute coffee I off the fire up the grinder. I'll try and post photos to help the next bloke in the line with a similar problem.

5. 
   flairwoodworks | Jan 06, 2009 08:37am | #15

   Well, we seem to have drifted astray somewhat. Floss is on the right track. I position the chipbreaker on my number 4 as close as I can to the cutting edge as possible. 3/64 sounds about right.

   If the depth of cut is difficult, either you have too much pressure on the lever cap (the blade is clamped too securely) or the adjuster needs work. The screw in the frog should be adjusted so that the lever cap can slide onto it and the cam can be fully engages with moderate pressure. You do not need to further tighten the screw. If that's not the cause, have a look at the adjuster. There could be a burr on it from manufacturing. Likely there will be more backlash in the adjuster than high-end planes.

   If the throat is clogging up, it is likely one of two things. Either the shaving you are trying to take is thicker than the mouth is wide. Or more likely, the cap iron (chip breaker) is not properly mating with the blade. It must meet the blade without any gaps and be smooth. Hone the rounded part of the chip breaker to help shavings glide over it and sharpen the underside where it contacts the blade to a slightly negative angle so that the point of the chip breaker contacts the blade first.

   In my opinion, most lower-end planes are serviceable, if you take the time to tune it up. Lap the sole, lap the frog, sharpen the blade, fine-tune the chip breaker, and you are in business. With Veritas and Lie Neilsen planes, all this is done for you, and you pay for it.

   Chris @ www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
   (soon to be www.flairwoodworks.com)

    - Success is not the key to happines.  Happiness is the key to success.  If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer

1. 
   davcefai | Jan 06, 2009 08:59am | #17

   Chris,Your post loaded after I replied to Floss. Ive just beed into the workshop to look at the plane (It's not quite dawn here yet). The cap iron is longer than the ones on my Stanleys although the blade is identical. The extra length seems to be at the end of the curve so that if I remove some metal here it should be OK.

1. 
   flairwoodworks | Jan 06, 2009 09:10am | #18

   Yes, I read your previous post and figured as much looking at the times. Let us know how shortening the cap iron goes.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)

    - Success is not the key to happines.  Happiness is the key to success.  If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer