How do you figure out what to charge for your “creations”? I have looked for similar pieces, to see what others have charged, but is there a “rule of thumb”? My pieces are classic ones, like Shaker bedside tables. I have heard that you add up your materials and multiply by 4? What do you think?
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There was a discussion on that a few weeks back at:
http://forums.finewoodworking.com/fine-woodworking-knots/general-discussion/lighter-side-pricing-joke
The 4x materials can work, but doesn't accomodate the amount of labour put into the piece.
All depending on how in depth you want to get with learning how to estimate jobs, this link to my article, Estimating for Furniture Makers might be useful. It is a PDF that's nearly 4 MB so it could take a while to download if you're on a slow connection.
I'd also understand if that article is way over the top for your needs, ha, ha, but I've had to develop a very accurate method for estimating for my business needs, and this does it for me. Slainte.
woodworkers don't charge
woodworkers don't charge enough -and it seems like every other trade easily gets their price and more ?
Sgian - do you have anymore shop photos to post - man your place looked like the yearly woodworking show I go to in Jersey with all the manufacturers on display -
SA
You have to have a licence to do plumbing or elecrical work.
yes Steve - I know - most are licenced and there are additional fees with that but woodworkers pay their dues as well - in another way -
Usually when you call those other trades - it's urgent and you're not price shopping.
SA
SA, the photographs in that article are of several different workshops and factory settings. There were a few from my employer's location that I use for my own work from time to time. My own workshop at home is the size of a single car garage and only fit for light work, and even then only when it's warm enough, ha, ha. Slainte.
Hey Sgian -
Seeing those photos were like a dream coming to life -
Anyway - my shop is also single car garage size -
I'll bet those guys with those big well equipted expensive shops and unlimited lumber aren't real craftsman like us - :-)
SA
a,
for seven years i depended on ww for my living. and in all those years i never felt i got it totally right. the input from others was, and still is, very helpful. i still have to take on work when my teaching's on vacation and i always talk to ww friends about what it ought to cost. one guy i know charges by the foot for kitchens and vanities. some take many things into the equating; materials, shop over-head, insurance etc.
eef
I have tried to price my pieces by adding the cost of materials and an hourly rate to over head and an additional 15% for profit. I still can't seem to sell much. I will usually end up selling an item at a reduced price, never making enough so that I could make a living (glad I don't have to) only enough it seems, to buy more materials and keep plugging away. I get tired of people saying how much they love a particular piece and in the same breath stating that they wish they could afford it. Hell they didn't even ask the price. It's hard to convince someone of the value of custom or hand crafted furniture if they are not already keenly aware of such things anyway. People would rather spend $400 on that latest cell phone gadget than on this hand crafted cherry and curly maple table. I'm not saying that my table is the best, but compared to the stuff made in China from real tree wood that is selling at the big box stores, and even the local quality furniture store, for half that price it's still a bargain. It's a hard sell that's for sure. If you get it figured out let me know, I sure would like to make a living at it.
Bob,
Your pricing formula seems low to me, for the type of work you show in the picture. I would expect to see a price tag of, say, $800 on each table. Perhaps you are targeting the wrong market? If I weren't a woodworker, I'd pay $400 for one of those tables. But being a woodworker, I'm more likely to look at them and say, "I can make one of those!". Talking perceived value... how much to you educate the customer? I want them to feel that I am not ripping them off, but I don't want to overwhelm them either.
I wish I could get $800 for each table, then I could say that I was really making a fair living from woodworking. The sad thing is, that I have priced them at $400 each and can't even get a bite. You may be correct about targeting the wrong market, but I'm not sure how to locate the right market. The locals (Tupper Lake, NY) are very enthusiastic about the material, and workmanship, but still unwilling to pay that much for a piece of furniture. I have set up displays at various meet and greet events sponsored by organizations promoting artisans and craftsmen. I usually bring at least five or six pieces in various styles. I dress well and answer all questions regarding materials, finishes, and techniques. These events usually include a mix if locals and summer residents. I find the summer residents to be generally more affluent, possess a greater knowledge of and appreciation for craftsmanship, however, I have never sold a single piece to any of these people. I usually go home with no business cards and lots of finger prints to clean off of the merchandise. Everyone wants to rub their hands across the surfaces and ask me how I achieved such a beautiful finish. I do my best to educate potential clients and will offer as much information as I can. Many often tell me how much they love a particular piece and that they have the perfect spot in their home or summer residence for it, but none ever pulls the trigger.
I'll keep plugging away
Bob,
I know nothing about the East Coast, except for that it is East of the West Coast. It sounds like you are doing a fantastic job getting good exposure for your name and work. You mentioned that you dress well. I don't know what exactly you mean by this, but if you are dressed in a suit, perhaps you are seen as a knowledgeable salesman with a pitch and not the craftsman trying to sell his work.
If you are giving away all your business cards and not getting many calls, then perhaps you are not bringing enough cards (unlikely), or they are not getting to the people who are really interested in your work. When I started woodworking and attended my first wood show (as a visitor, not an exhibitor), I went around to every booth and took a card or catalog. Back home, I went through every catalog and checked out every website to see what was available. Most of the stuff I wasn't even remotely interested in purchasing but I wanted to know what was out there.
Keep at it. Good luck.
Chris,
Thanks for the helpful suggestions. By dressed nice, I only mean clean and neat, shirt and kakis or jeans without glue and shellac all over them :) I think you are on track regarding geographic location, east is O.K., but northeast, well that's could explain it. You want a real eye opener, you should see what people will pay for rustic (twig and stick) furniture, it's crazy. There hundreds of rustic makers around but only a few who can really pull it off, yet they all seem to be selling! Even rustic items from China sell like hot cakes.
Bob,
It seems that many people are looking for something that is just "different". I was looking at some very nice, high-end contemporary furniture out of Japan. The chairs were had very clean lines and were very comfortable. Looking closely at the construction details, I was surprised to see the joint between the armrest and the back leg was (drumroll please!) a fingerjoint. Not the square finger joint also called a box joint, but the finger joint used to splice 1' long 2x4s into 8-footers. I think that most woodworkers would never consider using this type of joint, but I stood back and looked at it from a design perspective. The zig-zag joint between the two pieces of contrasting colours was an interesting detail. I might go so far as to say that I liked it. I spoke to the rep in the showroom about this detail and he told me that the people who notice it seem to like it.
What is marketable right now? Character, quality, uniqueness, and locally-made/environmentally friendly seem to be key words. Have a look at Craig Nutt's work. His work is the definition of character, quality, and uniqueness. And yes, he's got himself a niche market. Brad Sells is another woodworker who has that going for him.
I'm not trying to change what you do, but my work is all contemporary - I do not make reproductions because they do not inspire me. Plain and simple. Besides being interesting for me, this type of work also seems to be in demand.
There is often little correlation to the cost of materials and what you should charge for a particular job.The actual time spent is more important then material cost in many cases .
If you make it out of Pine or you make it out of Rosewood your labor burden will be a constant while the medium or material changes in cost .
So if the Rosewood costs $278 to build a small table of and the same table out of Pine costs $42 do you really think $1112 vs $164 makes much sense at 4 times the cost ?
An important factor imo is when you make pieces and then try and sell them you may not use the same pricing methods as when custom building ,typically with some exception we can charge more for custom work .
regards , dusty
A,
The best method of setting a price on "one of a kind" items which are commissioned is very simple. It was given to me by David Savage. You can see his work at
http://www.finefurnituremaker.com/
David is a VERY successful designer and maker of one of a kind pieces. Ask Richard Jones about David. Richard once told me "David is the real thing." I am telling you this to show you that David has credibility. Richard let me know that David has a long history of turning out students who are successful in the woodworking world. NO ONE ELSE IN THE WORLD CAN CLAIM THAT.
So what did David tell us at a meeting of four woodworking guilds which was sponsored by the Washington Woodworkers Guild last year. David said that the price he puts on a piece does not consider the cost of the wood or the time it took to make it. He bases it on the ability of the buyer to pay. He said that if the buyer does not wince when he hears the price, then he didn't charge enough. David's pieces go from $10,000 to $30,000 apiece.
Here is another hint. Go to the website of Rocking Chair maker, Hal Taylor. It is at:
http://www.haltaylor.com/Make_own_rocker.htm
He makes Maloof style rockers. He used to charge about $5000 apeice but he couldn't keep up with demand, so he upped the price to $75,000, but he couldn't keep up with demand, so he upped the price to $10,000, but he couldn't keep up with demand so he upped the price.......
Get the idea? Why not contact Hal? He is a great guy, and is very easy to talk to. I suggest that you go and take his one week course in making a rocking chair, and while there, ask him a lot about the business of woodworking. Few are as successful as he is. Stop and think. He gets about $12K per chair and he makes a chair a week. Wanna estimate his annual income?
I hope this helps. But how can you believe me? My advice was not in concert with the rest of the advice you got.
One more piece of advice. Richard Jones is "the real thing". He is highly successful and has been for a long while. He is a good guy to pay attention to.
Have fun.
Mel
Mel and All ,
I think the difference here is Mr. Savages formula or pricing concept is based on custom commissions , all bets are off when you build a piece and then try to sell them , as I believe the OP is trying , so don't compare one to the other they are simply not Apples to Apples .
When a client comes to us for our work we are in a much stronger position then while trying to sell an already made piece at a show .
They come knowing our reputation and perhaps have seen our works , much of the selling and credibility is removed from the transaction .
regards from Paradise , dusty
Dusty,
You are correct, as always (in my opinion). However, everyone does things differently. I know some guys who only do "built ins" at the VERY HIGH END - Kitchens for over $100,000, etc. They only deal with the very wealthy, obviously. They do very interesting stuff. Contacts are made by word of mouth. When customers WANT YOU to build their stuff and they have the money, you can charge "what the traffic will bear", so David Savage's approach also works with the high end built-ins. Of course, not many woodworkers get into this ultra-high-end renovation work. However, it exists.
I think it is nice to open the eyes of woodworkers to not only the way things are generally done, but also to what is possible.
You can't sell $100,000 custom kitchens in the slums of a dying town. I don't know where the OP is from. He may just want to try aiming at the very rich. Did you read the thread about the guy who bought all of the SUPER EXPENSIVE woodworking equipment and then just sold it because he was bored before he started. There are a surprising number of people out there with money they are just trying to spend. Not everyone wants to try to find them, but some are doing very well in this end of the business.
When answering messages on Knots, I find that it is rarely useful for me to give the "normal" answer, since there are many others who love to do this. I like to try to give answers which cause people to think about alternatives.
I still need to apprentice to you for a few years.
You are the Master.
Have fun.
Mel
I've always priced things at
I've always priced things at twice what I would pay for them. Although I am a pretty cheap bastard.
Oooh - I like that formula!
Ok here's my 2 cents on a
Ok here's my 2 cents on a couple of issues discussed in this thread.
1) Pricing. I use my labor rate (which isn't high) times hrs required
plus materials. Then I try to find what simular peices cost by other real wood furniture producers. I use this to validate my pricing, and sometimes adjust to the market. I am usually priced above all production furniture, and at the low end range of the high end/custom shops.
2) I just sold 2 shaker end tables like those that were mentioned above. I think I sold them for $525 (cash) each as a part of a bigger project. I was able to get bulk wood pricing due to the total size of the project. My pricing reflected dicounts due to the size of the total order.
3) I think what you wear for close while marketing your products does matter. (Discussed above) I almost lost a $272K job to the local VFW because I showed up in a 3 piece suite. That was in my old construction estimating days, years ago. My opinion is that people want to see us in clean, high quality work close. Kakis, or fairly new jeans , maybe the clean flanel Norm look. Sleeves rolled up, and rough hands show you work during a handshake, but keep the hands clean. Work shoes with a little wear on them. Take them off at a customer's door to show you respect their home. This may all sound stupid, but after almost loosing a $272K job because I dressed too well, I started listening to those who were making the sales.
4) It's nice to talking about something other than the software changes on this forum. Thanks.
Interesting to read your point #3. Thanks for sharing your experiences.
Bob..... You face major challenges trying to sell Hepplewight furniture in the Adirondacks. The locals in Tupper Lake are not going to buy enough custom furniture to allow you to survive, and the tourists expect to find regional product. You are located in the perfect area to capitilaze on your woodworking skill but you need to make a product that people want and do for the price their willing to pay.
To build something and then determine a price based on labor, material, and hope is the wrong approach. The design process should start with price. Knowing what the consumer wants and the value they place on it allows you create product that at least stands a chance of being successful. Especially true when doing classic furniture like ajames that is available both mass produced and on the secondary market.
People are easily tricked in buying store bought furniture because of easy credit, cheap construction that looks real, sales, immediate delivery, warranty, and of course a nice showroom. When people buy from a small woodworker they simply don't realize they are most likely getting a superior product, but because of the marketing skills of large furniture manufacturers, small shops struggle. If customers pay little for your product, they will most likely not value it. Because money is the determining value of a product, price is critical, to what you value the pieces you make. Those who still buy cheap furniture with low monthly payments will replace their furniture often as compared to quality built furniture that lasts a life time. In this disposable world it seems THROW AWAY is the norm, it is also the most expensive in the long run. Design is a must and the need to be different from the others is what makes your product unique and available only from you. Sam Maloof has many woodworkers who copy his design, but it you look closely, their copies have bits of their interpretation in them and their interpretation doesn't mix with Maloof's. The same should be true of your designs as they come from you and only you could push the designs further and stay true to the concept. The work that is selling for good pay is unique in design and that is the key. I too compete with the local woodworkers who give their work away, and once they establish that they will, they can't seem to get a good price for their fine work. Keep producing fine pieces and price them fairly for you and your customer and time will tell when your body of work gains a reputation. Remember if you don't place a high value on your pieces, your customer will compare it to any other store bought product that doesn't equal what you are doing.
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