Crazy idea here:
I’m planning to build my next bench with a standard front vise which has a 13″ capacity, minus a few inches for the wooden faces. Is there any reason why it wouldn’t work to build a L-shaped arm and install a shoulder vise screw, then pop it into the front vise when cutting dovetails, etc? I would be able to remove it when not needed.
Chris @ www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
– Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. – Albert Schweitzer
Replies
Chris,
Ok, morning coffee not kicking in yet. What are you proposing? I can't get a picture into my feebled mind.
-Jerry (slow to un-nap)
Jerry & Steve,
Does this crude drawing help? The grey represents the benchtop and standard front vise. The red is the Instant shoulder vise.View ImageChris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,
Got it. There is nothing crude about that drawing - and in living color, no less. With all components functioning properly I see no reason it won't work. Best as always!
-Jerry
BTW: There were some meaty posts in your bench poll. Interesting.
BTW 2: RE: your "crude" color drawing, do you know what this is? (_E=mc2_)
Jerry,
What do you mean by "meaty" posts?
I know of the formula E=mc2 (Einstein, right?) but don't know what it means. The underscores you added before and after make me think that you're referring to another meaning.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,
"Meaty" meaning having a bit of substance. I liked the amount of detail some posters went into describing their benches. In particular, as I get older, a higher working surface is easier on the eyes and back. Pretty soon, I'll get around to making a second smaller work surface that I can piggy-back on the existing lower bench.
As far as (_E=mc2_) goes, that is just another one of those :>) smiley face things, just a bit better. If (_!_) equals a normal posterior, and (_?_) equals a dumb posterior, then (_E=mc2_) refers to a smart posterior. In my post I was referring to myself as a smart a$$ for the remark I made about your "crude" drawing.
Best!
-Jerry
Jerry,
Very clever. I understand now (though possibly too much info!)Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
I think that would work fine. The secondary vise would be limited in the amount of pressure that it could exert (it would have to be significantly less than that of the main vise's capacity in order to avoid breaking anything), but that shouldn't be much of a concern for dovetailing and the like.
-Steve
Steve,
I agree. Now I have to decide which vises I'll install. Still waiting for the benchtop material though...Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Don't do it. It won't work and you'll wreck the original vise. I really hate those vises. They really are bad designs.First the problem: The problem is that you have moments in two planes both with very poor (unstiff reactions). You are applying a load with the shoulder vise in line with the screw and reacting that load elsewhere. That reaction is not in line with the original applied load so you have a moment (actually two). Basically, you've exaggerated the worst features of the vise you have. The further away you get from that screw, the worse things will get.Now for solutions:
1) Abandon that face vise. It rots.
2) When thinking about a new vise, come up with a simple load path that doesn't involve bearings and arms, or any part that can wear and effect the power of the vise.
3) Wherever possible, put the power of the screw directly behind (like an L vise or tail vise), or in line with (like a leg vise or twin screw), the work piece. The problem with L vises is that they get in the way and they are structurally inefficient in that you are basically cantilevering the L and very likely multiplying the applied load at the reactions (which may be bolts into end grain or glue). If you want a powerful, flexible vise, the older traditional styles are simply superior. Why don't people use them? Because no manufacturer has found a way to make them in China. What I recommend is buying a pair of large wooden screws and nut and fabbing up a twin screw or leg vise (or maybe an angled leg vise). With two screws you can do an either or.Check out :http://www.bigwoodvise.com/No affiliation. Not a customer. Not even endorsing the product. Just a reference.AdamP.S. For dovetailing, I don't think you can beat a twin screw vise. For planing the edge of narrow stock, again, you can't beat a wooden twin screw. For irregular stock - again, wooden twin screw. For edge work, a leg vise is best. No need to choose. Your bench can have both.
Edited 5/26/2008 11:05 am ET by AdamCherubini
Adam,
Thanks for your input. I've already bought a Veritas Twin Screw vise. What advantages does a wooden twin screw have over this one? I agree that twin screw vises are excellent for dovetailing, but as Chris Schwartz notes in his book, once you reach the limit of the vise, you're hooped. I intend to install the twin screw vise in the tail position.
I am leaning towards an angled leg vise and crochet. For the leg vise adjustment, what are your thoughts regarding the pin-in-hole set-up versus the Croix de St. Pierre (page 51 of Schwartz's Workbenches book)?
EDIT: I re-read that chapter in Schwartz's book and realized that (duh!) a leg vise works best with a flat leg to support the stock, not just a thick top or wide skirt. I am leaning towards a shoulder vise of some sort - either the traditional version (probably) or the subject of this discussion. I'm not convinced that the Instant Shoulder Vise won't work. (The front vise is a different story).
(I've already bought a rotten QR Face vise which I can mount elsewhere on another bench).
Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Edited 5/26/2008 9:31 pm by flairwoodworks
Wooden twin screw vises react load differently than LV. In LV's design, racking is reacted in a garter arrangement. The couple is tiny so tolerances and wear are crucial. In a wooden screw vise, racking is reacted at the head and then comes out in bending of the huge screw. The advantage is that you can rock and skew the loose jaw cheek to clamp tapered stock. Also, the wooden vise is immune to wear and fit issues. Off axis clamping is very satisfactory as long as the stock is placed behind the screw's large head. So when you make one of these, you put the heads as close to the top surface of the bench as possible. This allows you to clamp really narrow stock.In my latest vise, I think my screws are 24" apart which gives me a good 22" between them. I've not encountered any carcass side wider than that yet. If I do,I may just bore another hole in my bench, and make a new nut and jaw to accommodate.I'm not sure what you are talking about with regard to leg vise and flat front. Its good to have a flat front. And I would go that way. But a leg vise works fine with a bench that has a little overhang. I have such a bench. And there's one advantage I can think of. When edge planing short stock, I often set a peg or hold fast in the far leg, the lay a 2x4 across that peg and the vise screw. When the stock is only an 1" thick and the leg is flush with the top, using the 2x4 is tricky (not impossible- the jaw need not be parallel to the leg. You just move it out at the bottom a smidge more.)Skip the x brace. Saint Peter was probably crucified on an inverted latin cross anyway. adam
A few years ago I built a twin screw vise for dovetailing. Very definitely nothing special - just a hardwood board, twin 1/2" metal bolts-into-threads in the bench.
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I was using it recently to first cut the dovetails on the short side of a tool cabinet, then used it to support one side as I transfered the tails to the pin board (held here in a tail vise) ..
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I must echo Adam's criticism of these steel vises. I dislike them intensely. They rack, and clamp with uneven pressure (I hate it when a board suddenly "lets go" at one side!). My next bench (finally, after 12 years) will have wooden twin screw vises.
My favourite bench stop:
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And a favourite bench pup:
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Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,Once again, simple is often the best and love your bench dog.John
This was proposed on Badger Pond (by me) in 2001, thus:
I have never read about the shoulder vise being optimal for anything other than dovetailing, at which it excels. The only reason "real" shoulder vises are as big as they are is to do the "things other than dovetailing".
Therefore.
Fit a face vise. Record #53 or similar. Make a shoulder vise, which is simply held by the face vise. Just a (strong) 'U' shape, with a screw. The bottom of the 'U' would be deep enough to sit all the way across the jaws of the face vise, thus eliminating any racking forces on it.
Since this shoulder vise is only for dovetailing, it does need need extreme strength or capacity; around 2" should be fine. In this respect it would probably be nicer than a "real" shoulder vise, since in a "real" shoulder vise you have to reach over the length of the screw.
When you're doing something other than dovetailing, put the shoulder vise away.
Recently Jake Kamashlian (on oldtools) made one, but sadly, the site where the picture was got hacked, and (far worse) Jack is no longer with us.
BugBear
BugBear,
Really! I'm trying to envision the U shape. I've always thought of the shoulder vise as an L. I guess that the U runs along the length of the workbench and the work is clamped between the two legs.
I'm starting to see the few merits a standard face vise has, so I don't think I'll even add one. I also have a Twin Screw tail vise lined up which will be plenty capable of dovetailing. Still, I feel that I do need something to help hold stock when working on its edge.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
I'm trying to envision the U shape. I've always thought of the shoulder vise as an L. I guess that the U runs along the length of the workbench and the work is clamped between the two legs.
Hi Chris
I am pretty sure that this is what BB had in mind (BB, we have swapped pictures and ideas for so long now that I am positive that we know what is coming from each other before we actually see it!!) ...
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I just cannot recall the author of this actual vise. It ended up in my collection because I admired it.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek! You Angel!That *IS* Jack's vise; I though all the pictures had been lost.I remembered it as a 'U' - i.e. embodying both jaws, not just the moving jaw.I don't like the idea of using the bench edge as a jaw, since it's not easily replaceable.Building the "static" jaw into the gadget also allows the workpiece to be closer to operator, avoiding the shoulder vices "reach over" issue.The advantage of a normal face vise (e.g. Record #52) is capacity and quick release. I ain't giving mine up anytime soon.Yeah, it racks, but that's easy to fix, even if you're not using an axilliary shoulder vise:http://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?p=54987&h#54987 BugBear
Now that's exactly what I had in mind in my original post.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Post a sketch.
-Steve
That sounds just fine provided the bench cheek against which the stock is clamped is deep enough to support the work. The L shaped piece itself could be dovetailed since the pressure of the screw need not be excessive to hold the work.
Chris,
Racking of a "shoulder" vise as you describe will surely be amplified by that arrangement? The vise proposed has but a single screw and so is inherently racky to start with.
You can build a faux shoulder vise with a Veritas twin screw (VTS) though. If the jaws on a VTS are extended to the right of the right hand screw, you have a shoulder vise. Happily the twin screw arangement prevents racking when a workpiece is tightened into that rght hand end. In fact, using the twin screw disengaged for the last part-turn will allow you to increase the relative degree of nip in the shoulder vise area, rather than it being decreased by racking.
You could have another one on the left hand side an' all. What a masculine vise it would be, with it's great wide deltoids!
Of course, the VTS lacks any quick release mechanism, unlike the ordinary metal vises of the Record type. A VTS also costs more.
Lataxe
Flairwoodsworks,
To really enhance dovetail making you should consider the mini-bench on bench idea. It raises the stock up to the proper level for sawing, much better holding power in the vise made from two vac press screws and, I find, better more accurate chopping.
Your 'L' will work also, but I like that for planing glued up drawers.
...mini bench on a bench
I have been considering such a thing both for dovetailing as well as inlaying as I find its too hard on my back to be hunched over my work bench for long times doing detailed work. would be interested in any references, drawings, experiences with constructing a mini bench. thanks.
giraffelt,I believe there was an article and video clip about two years ago in FWW on the mini-bench. I don't remember if the article included plans per se, I just made mine to be a mini version of my workbench...but used only poplar (I had tons of poplar on hand). In my case I wanted it high enough so I could cut dovetails holding the saw at the proper angle; that height turned out to be 10" for me. I wanted to be able to store it under the end of the workbench (standing on end) so that limited the length to about 24". I put sled feet on it which was good for clamping the mini-bench to the workbench, with a bit more forethought, I would have aligned the sled feet with the workbench dog holes and just dropped a dowel down to lock both together. Regardless of how you affix it to the workbench you want to make sure you stock will clear the edge of the workbench.Perhaps the most important aspect is the front vise. I used two vac press screws set up like a veritas vise(kinda). My jaws/apron is about 3.5"wide which gives plenty of holding power. However, if I had made them about 5" wide, with the screws about half way down, I could hold larger stock. Also, if the bench were a bit longer I could hold longer stock and route out top and bottom mortices without moving the stock.Its been quite handy and much more comfortable. I can clamp a light to it also.
BG,your response is much appreciated. thanks.
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